I'm dm for a group of 5 and one pc backstory has him running away from a clan that have destroyed his tribe. I plan on having that clan reappear in the next session and kidnap the characters love interest (another pc). I'm just wondering if I should tell the pc that I intend on having them being kidnapped? or just keep them in the dark?
Don't plan ahead of time to kidnap a specific PC. This will not work. The players will do everything they can to thwart you, and you are going to have to fudge rolls, and obviously so, and fake things, to make it work the way you planned.
Have them attack the girlfriend. This is fine. But pre-planning that she WILL be kidnapped will not work.
The only possible option you have is to do it off-screen -- if the player of the g/f is game, and agrees, they could let you just do it and you could leave a note, "We have her, come get her," and the player at the table can confirm that their character is nowhere to be found, respond to Sending as appropriate, etc. But this can ONLY be done with the express agreement of the player and if the player says they don't like it, you shouldn't do it at all.
Kidnapping a PC and having everyone rescue them is the kind of thing that sounds super fun to the DM and is universally despised by almost every player.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'm dm for a group of 5 and one pc backstory has him running away from a clan that have destroyed his tribe. I plan on having that clan reappear in the next session and kidnap the characters love interest (another pc). I'm just wondering if I should tell the pc that I intend on having them being kidnapped? or just keep them in the dark?
Thanks
Definitely tell them. Make sure the player agrees before you do anything to their character.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Don't plan ahead of time to kidnap a specific PC. This will not work. The players will do everything they can to thwart you, and you are going to have to fudge rolls, and obviously so, and fake things, to make it work the way you planned.
Have them attack the girlfriend. This is fine. But pre-planning that she WILL be kidnapped will not work.
The only possible option you have is to do it off-screen -- if the player of the g/f is game, and agrees, they could let you just do it and you could leave a note, "We have her, come get her," and the player at the table can confirm that their character is nowhere to be found, respond to Sending as appropriate, etc. But this can ONLY be done with the express agreement of the player and if the player says they don't like it, you shouldn't do it at all.
Kidnapping a PC and having everyone rescue them is the kind of thing that sounds super fun to the DM and is universally despised by almost every player.
Thanks for the reply. I can see your point of view so ill add some more context,
Whilst technically it is pre planned to kidnap them I did choose that character at random.
The attacking clan i plan on having them raid the small town they are in whilst they sleep at the tavern and that's when the pc will be kidnapped. I'm expecting the party to fight to get her back whilst they are being kidnapped and whilst narratively I want the play to be kidnapped. even if they stop the kidnapping i can add more monsters ect to block it (not ideal so probably wont do that)
even if they thwart the plan I'm sure they will go and seek revenge etc so all is not lost.
I only wanted to have the pc kidnapped to show pressing matters and the pc will be held with other backstory characters relevant to the plot which they can meet when the get their revenge if they foil the plot
Don't tell players what's going to happen. It spoils the drama, and also gives them an unfair chance to make a plan to counter your scheme.
I can see why you might want to tell them. You want to ask them to let your plan succeed so you can have your plot point. This is railroading, even if they agree.
It is frightfully difficult to capture a PC. The party will usually fight to the death to stop it. Then again, that could be okay. You could apparently TPK the party, but actually they were only unconscious and a helpful ranger comes along and heals them, but one of them is missing! Or other scenarios. If you can figure a way to separate the target PC, then you can attack them with overwhelming numbers. This isn't terribly hard to do. You could have a non-lethal drop trap that closes behind the PC, leaving no way for the rest of the party to reach them.
Just be prepared for the players to thwart your plan. That's the game they've come to play - thwart the DM's plans - and it's terribly fun for them when they succeed. Come up with the cleverest plan you can within the rules. Use all your unfair advantages. But if you're still beaten, accept it.
I have to second the do NOT kidnap a PC. For one, it goes against the rule of "don't split the party". What is the player going to do while waiting to be rescued? What are all the other players going to do while you run a single player escape adventure? That's bad table manners.
Generally speaking, players hate getting captured. But having the entire party captured would be better than just one PC. But keep in mind they will hate that scenario. Players hate HATE getting captured.
If the party has established ties to the town, have the raiders attack or kidnap those NPCs. It will be substantially more enjoyable for them to rescue their friends then rescue themselves. If they do not have ties to the town, put the kidnapping on the backburner until they do. Then when they don't expect it, they come back from an adventure with the town in flames.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Matt Mercer did this really well with Sam Regals character Taryon Darington. In this case a bounty hunter had been sent by Taryon’s father to bring him home.
Matt had not told Sam ahead of time and simply allowed him to discover at the table, having him wake up on the back of a horse even as the other players where looking for him.
in game terms the bounty hunter had disguised herself as a member of the villiage, come to the players seeking help and work, given them baked goods (they ran a bakery in town) to test. Matt made secret constitution rolls be determined the slow acting poison had taken effect. Taryon went to sleep and the poison kept him under.
the party where separated for about an hour-2 hours of game time, and Sam the kidnapped player had actions and things he could try and do. But this is a group of very good role players who where able to improv the scene. I know players who would love it and others who would hate it. Talk to your own players springing surprises on players is fine, but don’t force them into a blind alley ensure you give them enough agency and scope to them make decisions within the situation you have out them in. Don’t simply have the kidnapped player become mute at the table, involve them and let them roleplay being a kidnapped party. They may surprise you with there ideas and eacape all on there own.
+1 this is the way to do it. It's not fair if you just say the bad guys break into your inn and you never wake up. You need to role play something leading up to that where they have a chance to see it coming. In this case if the players had Insight checked the baker, they might have avoided the kidnapping.
If you want bad guys to sneak into the inn and bind and gag the party, you need to at least make Stealth rolls for the bad guys against the PC's passive Perception minus 5 or something. And ideally drop some subtle clues the day before that there are shifty characters about. If they spot them maybe they'll keep a watch rotation at night. It's kind of not fair if every other inn has been a safe zone where they didn't bother to say they're keeping watch because they didn't want to waste session time on something pointless. At least expect to waste 5 minutes of every future session talking about watch rotations at inns if you do this.
It'd be like putting a pit trap in the middle of tavern. I mean yeah, technically it could be there. Maybe all the regulars know where not to step and it's a prank they play on newcomers. But do you really want your party to search for traps in every tavern they walk into?
Matt Mercer did this really well with Sam Regals character Taryon Darington. In this case a bounty hunter had been sent by Taryon’s father to bring him home.
Matt had not told Sam ahead of time and simply allowed him to discover at the table, having him wake up on the back of a horse even as the other players where looking for him.
in game terms the bounty hunter had disguised herself as a member of the villiage, come to the players seeking help and work, given them baked goods (they ran a bakery in town) to test. Matt made secret constitution rolls be determined the slow acting poison had taken effect. Taryon went to sleep and the poison kept him under.
the party where separated for about an hour-2 hours of game time, and Sam the kidnapped player had actions and things he could try and do. But this is a group of very good role players who where able to improv the scene. I know players who would love it and others who would hate it. Talk to your own players springing surprises on players is fine, but don’t force them into a blind alley ensure you give them enough agency and scope to them make decisions within the situation you have out them in. Don’t simply have the kidnapped player become mute at the table, involve them and let them roleplay being a kidnapped party. They may surprise you with there ideas and eacape all on there own.
Note the important part here, though. The kidnapped character was still part of the story and wasn't "removed from play until rescued". That is how the kidnapping can work. If it's just a situation of "OK, your character is now absent until they decide to rescue you", it really is a bad decision to go through with if the player doesn't know it's happening.
Also, the players know each other really well, and although the player may not have had any foreknowledge of the specific kidnapping incident, I'm betting there was a general agreement around the table that PC kidnapping would be OK if the story called for it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
+1 this is the way to do it. It's not fair if you just say the bad guys break into your inn and you never wake up. You need to role play something leading up to that where they have a chance to see it coming. In this case if the players had Insight checked the baker, they might have avoided the kidnapping.
If you want bad guys to sneak into the inn and bind and gag the party, you need to at least make Stealth rolls for the bad guys against the PC's passive Perception minus 5 or something. And ideally drop some subtle clues the day before that there are shifty characters about. If they spot them maybe they'll keep a watch rotation at night. It's kind of not fair if every other inn has been a safe zone where they didn't bother to say they're keeping watch because they didn't want to waste session time on something pointless. At least expect to waste 5 minutes of every future session talking about watch rotations at inns if you do this.
It'd be like putting a pit trap in the middle of tavern. I mean yeah, technically it could be there. Maybe all the regulars know where not to step and it's a prank they play on newcomers. But do you really want your party to search for traps in every tavern they walk into?
I mean even in Jabbas Palace the patrons made it pretty clear they didn't wan't to be stood on a certain patch of the floor :)
The method mentioned above from Mercer could be an option, although it is going to take a lot of work. Also, you should be aware that many players would absolutely hate this, so unless you have discussed this with them beforehand, you've a good chance of just pissing off your players.
One way I could see this working, though, is if the kindnapped character's player is not going to be present for a few sessions. For example, they are going on holiday. In this case, you could discuss (in confidence) with that player, make sure they are OK with it, and then just announce at the first session they the character hasn't shown up.
Note, I wouldn't set it in stone, though. Give enough clues to the party that they may get worried and start looking, but make sure you have planned for "Well they are on holiday, so let's go adventuring". If they don't go looking, forget the kidnapping (you do not want your player to come back from holiday and find their character is languishing in a dungeon because their friends didn't bother to look for them).
The method mentioned above from Mercer could be an option, although it is going to take a lot of work. Also, you should be aware that many players would absolutely hate this, so unless you have discussed this with them beforehand, you've a good chance of just pissing off your players.
Again, the Critical Role players know each other very well, and Mercer has DMed for them for years. You trust your DM after that much time. It is not the same thing when a DM you have only played with 3 months does it. Also, again, whether they showed it "on TV" or not, I am sure that CR has a bunch of "table rules" that the players all agreed to -- because the CR players are experienced RPers and every experienced RPer knows that all tables need table rules. One of their table rules might be something like, "all of us players consent to having our characters kidnapped if it advances the story." Unless your table ALSO has this rule, you can't just copy what Mercer did and assume it will be successful. Sam already knew and trusted his DM and was aware of whatever table rules they have (and presumably participated in making them up, as happens in any good game group).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The method mentioned above from Mercer could be an option, although it is going to take a lot of work. Also, you should be aware that many players would absolutely hate this, so unless you have discussed this with them beforehand, you've a good chance of just pissing off your players.
Again, the Critical Role players know each other very well, and Mercer has DMed for them for years. You trust your DM after that much time. It is not the same thing when a DM you have only played with 3 months does it. Also, again, whether they showed it "on TV" or not, I am sure that CR has a bunch of "table rules" that the players all agreed to -- because the CR players are experienced RPers and every experienced RPer knows that all tables need table rules. One of their table rules might be something like, "all of us players consent to having our characters kidnapped if it advances the story." Unless your table ALSO has this rule, you can't just copy what Mercer did and assume it will be successful. Sam already knew and trusted his DM and was aware of whatever table rules they have (and presumably participated in making them up, as happens in any good game group).
The key thing for me here was the was the fact Sam was given agency to act and do things.
There was one other occasion this happened very early on so I forgot about it, When in the underdark Grog was mind controlled so he attacked the party by a duregar and then left with her when she teleported away. The next session Travis wasn't present because of out of game things, although I am pretty sure Matt stated that is not the reason he did that kidnap action, it was more because it fit the story at that moment, and that is the thing the players trust Matt to take them on a journey because they have played together so long. But I also imagine that if Travis had been around Matt would have role played with him separately. The party do lots of things other players would hate, like having a magic sword change a players behaviour, or potentially taking over a characters very being with a Githyanki trapped in a. soul stone. I do think saying a hard, they will hate it is too cut and dry, its something to discuss and think about.
To be fair, BioWizard has a point that they are close enough friends that things like this can occur without notice, and that things can happen with them that probably can't happen in any other group. However, in connecting Critical Role with the topic at hand, the agency to continue to act is the important point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
HI,
I'm dm for a group of 5 and one pc backstory has him running away from a clan that have destroyed his tribe. I plan on having that clan reappear in the next session and kidnap the characters love interest (another pc). I'm just wondering if I should tell the pc that I intend on having them being kidnapped? or just keep them in the dark?
Thanks
Don't do it.
Don't plan ahead of time to kidnap a specific PC. This will not work. The players will do everything they can to thwart you, and you are going to have to fudge rolls, and obviously so, and fake things, to make it work the way you planned.
Have them attack the girlfriend. This is fine. But pre-planning that she WILL be kidnapped will not work.
The only possible option you have is to do it off-screen -- if the player of the g/f is game, and agrees, they could let you just do it and you could leave a note, "We have her, come get her," and the player at the table can confirm that their character is nowhere to be found, respond to Sending as appropriate, etc. But this can ONLY be done with the express agreement of the player and if the player says they don't like it, you shouldn't do it at all.
Kidnapping a PC and having everyone rescue them is the kind of thing that sounds super fun to the DM and is universally despised by almost every player.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Definitely tell them. Make sure the player agrees before you do anything to their character.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Don't tell them! Let the dice speak!
Thanks for the reply. I can see your point of view so ill add some more context,
Whilst technically it is pre planned to kidnap them I did choose that character at random.
The attacking clan i plan on having them raid the small town they are in whilst they sleep at the tavern and that's when the pc will be kidnapped.
I'm expecting the party to fight to get her back whilst they are being kidnapped and whilst narratively I want the play to be kidnapped. even if they stop the kidnapping i can add more monsters ect to block it (not ideal so probably wont do that)
even if they thwart the plan I'm sure they will go and seek revenge etc so all is not lost.
I only wanted to have the pc kidnapped to show pressing matters and the pc will be held with other backstory characters relevant to the plot which they can meet when the get their revenge if they foil the plot
The players are going to hate it. Trust me on this. Players do NOT like to lose. They will be very frustrated and they will not enjoy it.
I suggest coming up with another way of having the clan make its mark on the campaign.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
So just have them raid the village and not kidnap the pc then the party go get vengeance and see the other backstory npcs and rescue them?
There are lots of ways the other clan can appear in the story. You don't necessarily need to do a kidnapping, or even a raid.
I would think as a player, if the clan who destroyed my tribe attacked my current town, I am going to go get some revenge.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Don't tell players what's going to happen. It spoils the drama, and also gives them an unfair chance to make a plan to counter your scheme.
I can see why you might want to tell them. You want to ask them to let your plan succeed so you can have your plot point. This is railroading, even if they agree.
It is frightfully difficult to capture a PC. The party will usually fight to the death to stop it. Then again, that could be okay. You could apparently TPK the party, but actually they were only unconscious and a helpful ranger comes along and heals them, but one of them is missing! Or other scenarios. If you can figure a way to separate the target PC, then you can attack them with overwhelming numbers. This isn't terribly hard to do. You could have a non-lethal drop trap that closes behind the PC, leaving no way for the rest of the party to reach them.
Just be prepared for the players to thwart your plan. That's the game they've come to play - thwart the DM's plans - and it's terribly fun for them when they succeed. Come up with the cleverest plan you can within the rules. Use all your unfair advantages. But if you're still beaten, accept it.
I have to second the do NOT kidnap a PC. For one, it goes against the rule of "don't split the party". What is the player going to do while waiting to be rescued? What are all the other players going to do while you run a single player escape adventure? That's bad table manners.
Generally speaking, players hate getting captured. But having the entire party captured would be better than just one PC. But keep in mind they will hate that scenario. Players hate HATE getting captured.
If the party has established ties to the town, have the raiders attack or kidnap those NPCs. It will be substantially more enjoyable for them to rescue their friends then rescue themselves. If they do not have ties to the town, put the kidnapping on the backburner until they do. Then when they don't expect it, they come back from an adventure with the town in flames.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The attacking clan i plan on having them raid the small town they are in whilst they sleep at the tavern and that's when the pc will be kidnapped.
They will hate not getting the chance to wake up and defend themselves. Especially if they are in the same room or close rooms...
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Matt Mercer did this really well with Sam Regals character Taryon Darington. In this case a bounty hunter had been sent by Taryon’s father to bring him home.
Matt had not told Sam ahead of time and simply allowed him to discover at the table, having him wake up on the back of a horse even as the other players where looking for him.
in game terms the bounty hunter had disguised herself as a member of the villiage, come to the players seeking help and work, given them baked goods (they ran a bakery in town) to test. Matt made secret constitution rolls be determined the slow acting poison had taken effect. Taryon went to sleep and the poison kept him under.
the party where separated for about an hour-2 hours of game time, and Sam the kidnapped player had actions and things he could try and do. But this is a group of very good role players who where able to improv the scene. I know players who would love it and others who would hate it. Talk to your own players springing surprises on players is fine, but don’t force them into a blind alley ensure you give them enough agency and scope to them make decisions within the situation you have out them in. Don’t simply have the kidnapped player become mute at the table, involve them and let them roleplay being a kidnapped party. They may surprise you with there ideas and eacape all on there own.
+1 this is the way to do it. It's not fair if you just say the bad guys break into your inn and you never wake up. You need to role play something leading up to that where they have a chance to see it coming. In this case if the players had Insight checked the baker, they might have avoided the kidnapping.
If you want bad guys to sneak into the inn and bind and gag the party, you need to at least make Stealth rolls for the bad guys against the PC's passive Perception minus 5 or something. And ideally drop some subtle clues the day before that there are shifty characters about. If they spot them maybe they'll keep a watch rotation at night. It's kind of not fair if every other inn has been a safe zone where they didn't bother to say they're keeping watch because they didn't want to waste session time on something pointless. At least expect to waste 5 minutes of every future session talking about watch rotations at inns if you do this.
It'd be like putting a pit trap in the middle of tavern. I mean yeah, technically it could be there. Maybe all the regulars know where not to step and it's a prank they play on newcomers. But do you really want your party to search for traps in every tavern they walk into?
Note the important part here, though. The kidnapped character was still part of the story and wasn't "removed from play until rescued". That is how the kidnapping can work. If it's just a situation of "OK, your character is now absent until they decide to rescue you", it really is a bad decision to go through with if the player doesn't know it's happening.
Also, the players know each other really well, and although the player may not have had any foreknowledge of the specific kidnapping incident, I'm betting there was a general agreement around the table that PC kidnapping would be OK if the story called for it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I mean even in Jabbas Palace the patrons made it pretty clear they didn't wan't to be stood on a certain patch of the floor :)
The method mentioned above from Mercer could be an option, although it is going to take a lot of work. Also, you should be aware that many players would absolutely hate this, so unless you have discussed this with them beforehand, you've a good chance of just pissing off your players.
One way I could see this working, though, is if the kindnapped character's player is not going to be present for a few sessions. For example, they are going on holiday. In this case, you could discuss (in confidence) with that player, make sure they are OK with it, and then just announce at the first session they the character hasn't shown up.
Note, I wouldn't set it in stone, though. Give enough clues to the party that they may get worried and start looking, but make sure you have planned for "Well they are on holiday, so let's go adventuring". If they don't go looking, forget the kidnapping (you do not want your player to come back from holiday and find their character is languishing in a dungeon because their friends didn't bother to look for them).
Again, the Critical Role players know each other very well, and Mercer has DMed for them for years. You trust your DM after that much time. It is not the same thing when a DM you have only played with 3 months does it. Also, again, whether they showed it "on TV" or not, I am sure that CR has a bunch of "table rules" that the players all agreed to -- because the CR players are experienced RPers and every experienced RPer knows that all tables need table rules. One of their table rules might be something like, "all of us players consent to having our characters kidnapped if it advances the story." Unless your table ALSO has this rule, you can't just copy what Mercer did and assume it will be successful. Sam already knew and trusted his DM and was aware of whatever table rules they have (and presumably participated in making them up, as happens in any good game group).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The key thing for me here was the was the fact Sam was given agency to act and do things.
There was one other occasion this happened very early on so I forgot about it, When in the underdark Grog was mind controlled so he attacked the party by a duregar and then left with her when she teleported away. The next session Travis wasn't present because of out of game things, although I am pretty sure Matt stated that is not the reason he did that kidnap action, it was more because it fit the story at that moment, and that is the thing the players trust Matt to take them on a journey because they have played together so long. But I also imagine that if Travis had been around Matt would have role played with him separately. The party do lots of things other players would hate, like having a magic sword change a players behaviour, or potentially taking over a characters very being with a Githyanki trapped in a. soul stone. I do think saying a hard, they will hate it is too cut and dry, its something to discuss and think about.
To be fair, BioWizard has a point that they are close enough friends that things like this can occur without notice, and that things can happen with them that probably can't happen in any other group. However, in connecting Critical Role with the topic at hand, the agency to continue to act is the important point.