Appealing to those with much more experience than I. . . how do you all RP leveling? Especially when it occurs so quickly? I'm running a pre-made adventure with milestone leveling. The PC's have been pursuing the adventure, etc. for six weeks of game time and are level 9. I've built in somewhat that clearly there are forces at work which are aiding them in catalyzing their absorption of knowledge, their ability to learn new approaches to combat, etc., but basically at this point the only explanation is divine intervention.
So. . . any thoughts on how to justify, in terms of story, such rapid expansion in their skills, strength, intelligence, etc? Many thanks!
The sentiment is good, but I think sooner or later you have to accept at least some meta in the game. Even if you do create an elaborate in-world mechanism and explanation for leveling up, you still have to actually tell the players "+2 to intelligence" and "you get another hit die". Plus, what if they gained the XP doing something completely unrelated to the stat that's increasing? Maybe your wizard spent every waking moment from level 3 to level 4 bashing stuff over the head with his staff - how would your in game explanation account for their intelligence increasing? No in-game explanation is better than one that doesn't fit the observable facts.
I'd leave the in-world explanation as "you dealt with lots of stuff, so you've gotten better at dealing with stuff" - that's why it's call experience, after all. Then focus your time on other aspects of the game.
My group levels up in the out of game time at the end of the session (even if technically they hit the required XP in the middle of an encounter). I guess it could also happen at the next rest, but they've yet to level up mid way through a session, so I'll deal with that if/when it happens.
I tell the players in the "zero" session that leveling up benefits happen at a long rest, not immediately. That way spell casters can read their spell books, monks and warriors can meditate, etc. As far as the why it is happening, can be creative. Maybe something visited them in their sleep. Maybe they have a talisman with them that enables them to get stronger, learn more spells, etc.
I don't usually RP level up with my players. I think I did it once so far in the campaign we've had going for a couple years now? It was when they went to level 7. The paladin got his aura of devotion so I RP'd a vision from the god he was devoted to and outright stated something that indicated the aura had been granted. The beastmaster ranger had a short RP session with another ranger in the area to train with his companion to explain the exceptional training feature that gets added at L7. The other ranger who was a hunter was presented with the three defensive tactics in the battle that preceded the level up. He then had a choice of which of the three rangers to train with for the day to learn the technique he wanted to pick for that feature.
The party has just leveled up for the first time with their new characters (two of the players had grown tired of the pre-gens they were still playing with from LMoP so we wrote out their existing characters and brought in new characters that excited them more) and I didn't RP anything with level up. But I did give the party 10 spell scrolls (it's loot listed in the module we're running) which the wizard can scribe into his spellbook which lightly RP'd him learning more spells I guess.
I tell the players in the "zero" session that leveling up benefits happen at a long rest, not immediately. That way spell casters can read their spell books, monks and warriors can meditate, etc. As far as the why it is happening, can be creative. Maybe something visited them in their sleep. Maybe they have a talisman with them that enables them to get stronger, learn more spells, etc.
Yes, I also leave it until the next long rest. When the characters have that 8 hours of downtime to contemplate what they've been through recently, and realise that there are other strategies that could be applied - either in combat, or in how to control the weave. Or maybe their god/patron sends them a (non-roleplayed) dream to indicate that they are doing well and the god/patron is now willing to provide them with more power.
I don't think of it as a big deal. I stopped using experience to level up and started going with milestone leveling. Generally those milestones happen after a series of adventures and when they get to a major town. At the end of the session I say you made level, adjust your characters for next week.
I have them all using my content in DNDB Character Builder to level up so I don't worry about errors. Then it is assumed they will be taking a rest period in this town and doing their necessary training. Training costs money and if they are training a feat or new something special they have to pay for it. The higher the level the higher the cost of training.
I mean yeah it isn't possible to make it really consistent or realistic within the world. If your heroes can get to l9 in six weeks, there should be thousands of people running around who've been adventuring for a dozen years and are all at level 20+.
I don't really find a rapid advance in skill unrealistic. Imagine if you played a video game 8+ hours a day for six weeks. If you have any natural talent you're going to easily dominate noobs.
Yeah, I've had the same problem. These skills should take much longer to learn. I'm thinking for my next campaign, I'll just write in long breaks between each level up. After all, in The Lord of the Rings, Frodo rested a month in Rivendell and another month in Lorien. It's not hard to imagine Aragorn doing a little training to level up during those breaks!
I count Levelling up as a "gamified" representation of a continuous process. They don't suddenly, spontaneously develop new skills, they have been doing so over time. It's just that, at the point of levelling, they have developed them to the point where they become useful/usable.
So, the Barbarian or Fighter who gains Extra Attack has been steadily developing his fighting skills/speed of attack, and has finally got to the point where the game can represent this in 2 separate attacks. The spellcaster who learns a new spell has been researching/practising for ages, but has now finally cracked the intricacies and can cast it.
I mean yeah it isn't possible to make it really consistent or realistic within the world. If your heroes can get to l9 in six weeks, there should be thousands of people running around who've been adventuring for a dozen years and are all at level 20+.
Not many people are fated, or have the will, to become an adventurer.
Most common folk spend their entire lives working hard, but are still just a 4 hp commoner.
In my campaign multiverse, Those who have class levels are special. There rate of growth and knowledge acquisition is FAR beyond the average person. One of my reoccurring NPC's is a universe hopping Elf Wizard who managed to catch a glimpse past the 4th wall (pretty much) and learn that every universe he visits, there are always around 4-6 people (Characters) who come into power shortly before a great calamity (The plot of the campaign). He also discovered that across his universe hopping, while he's met a LOT of these people, they're really a form of reincarnation of the same force (The player). He calls people with this ability to grow in power beyond the scope of most people the "Potential" (Class levels essentially)
This was originally a goof made to justify why a band of 6 doofuses could become the most competent people in the world, but after the 2nd campaign, it actually became a serious plot point lol.
So whenever something meta comes up (like leveling, or metagame knowledge) I have the easy justification tool of the "Potential" to BS explanations lol
In my campaign multiverse, Those who have class levels are special. There rate of growth and knowledge acquisition is FAR beyond the average person. One of my reoccurring NPC's is a universe hopping Elf Wizard who managed to catch a glimpse past the 4th wall (pretty much) and learn that every universe he visits, there are always around 4-6 people (Characters) who come into power shortly before a great calamity (The plot of the campaign). He also discovered that across his universe hopping, while he's met a LOT of these people, they're really a form of reincarnation of the same force (The player). He calls people with this ability to grow in power beyond the scope of most people the "Potential" (Class levels essentially)
This was originally a goof made to justify why a band of 6 doofuses could become the most competent people in the world, but after the 2nd campaign, it actually became a serious plot point lol.
So whenever something meta comes up (like leveling, or metagame knowledge) I have the easy justification tool of the "Potential" to BS explanations lol
Lol, I think this is a really fun and quirky way to play it... And I may steal it at some point!
In my campaign multiverse, Those who have class levels are special. There rate of growth and knowledge acquisition is FAR beyond the average person. One of my reoccurring NPC's is a universe hopping Elf Wizard who managed to catch a glimpse past the 4th wall (pretty much) and learn that every universe he visits, there are always around 4-6 people (Characters) who come into power shortly before a great calamity (The plot of the campaign). He also discovered that across his universe hopping, while he's met a LOT of these people, they're really a form of reincarnation of the same force (The player). He calls people with this ability to grow in power beyond the scope of most people the "Potential" (Class levels essentially)
This was originally a goof made to justify why a band of 6 doofuses could become the most competent people in the world, but after the 2nd campaign, it actually became a serious plot point lol.
So whenever something meta comes up (like leveling, or metagame knowledge) I have the easy justification tool of the "Potential" to BS explanations lol
Lol, I think this is a really fun and quirky way to play it... And I may steal it at some point!
If you REALLY wanna steal it, the Elf in question is a very flamboyant Eladrin named Alphonso lol
If you ever saw my post about "Plot Magic" where I made a subclass based around knowing the "plot" of the world (a metagame subclass) This is referring to the same guy lol
Many thanks to all for all of the excellent input, it's truly appreciated! It's a lot more work but I've decided to continue with keeping leveling tied to story.
The paladin and cleric both have been visited in meditation by emissaries of their deities, describing why their increased absorption of knowledge and skill is occurring. Another PC is in contact with an ancestor who has passed, another receives regular readings from a seer who is able to explain why he has been chosen for such rapid advancement, and the last is gaining knowledge from a sentient weapon which is channeling knowledge from a variety of sources and passing it on to the wielder.
Like I say, more work for sure but it just helps me feel like I'm adhering to story as closely as possible. Certainly not prescribing it for others, just something that feels right to me for this campaign.
When running a pre written campaign I generally never roleplay leveling, players just gain those new abilities and stats as per the level they are, most written campaigns keep the action rolling and so stopping for a long period of downtime to learn new skills and abilities is hard to work into the narrative. For example I have just finished running out of the abyss, for the first 2/3rds of that adventure the pc’s don’t stop constantly moving from one location to the next.
In my homebrew campaigns it depends a little on the narrative and a lot on the players. Some players love to take a step back and RP downtime. If this is the case I will try and pace my adventure so major leveling, when a subclass gets a new ability generally, coincides with downtime, or a nice beat in the story. For instance the Arcane Trickster is close to level 9 I might coincide that level up with a session with another arcane trickster who has magical ambush, they offer to teach the rogue the ability through the session by the end the rogue knows the ability and has leveled up. This is easier with XP leveling as you can pace everyone’s leveling up over a series of sessions giving them all a chance to learn a new skill and spotlight a moment at the new level to show it off.
With Wizards I have in the past told my wizard player as they approach the next major level to think about the next level spells they want to learn, I might then have situations arise where a spell scroll is found, or an NPC adds that new high level spell to there Izard spell book telling them they sense the character is almost ready to attempt it. This means we are not simply saying when the wizard levels up, you now learn 2 additional spells at your new level, what are they. It also gets the player thinking ahead of time about what they want to learn spell wise next.
sorcerors, I will do a similar thing but I will instead roleplay it out. For instance Sorceror levels up and learns Fireball. The very first time they cast it I might say.
“Looking at the creature advancing towards you you reach out for your trusty fire bolt spell, feeling the magic weave its way around your body coalescing at your hand the familiar feeling seems to grow, expanding to encase your very essence. Where you would normally feel the magic peak releasing the volt of fire from your hand it continues to grow. You stand, concentrating wondering just how much more energy you can cast into this spell. Finally you sense the power has reached its zenith, threatening to drain away you release it. A large ball of fire erupts from your hands, exploding on impact. You look at your hand, and then your colleagues. What felt like an eternity to you was a mere second, you stand, feeling drained, unsure where this new power came from you get a sense that, once rested, if required you could summon this new form of magic at will.
My campaign's characters have gone from level 1 to level 4 in about 4-5 days of in-game time (approximately 20 hours of play) using standard XP. This is just them unlocking their potential.
You learn far, far more by doing things for real than you do in the classroom. One of my players is a rogue (swashbuckler) from a fencing school. He has spent his teenage years learning the rapier... but only now, putting it into practice, is he learning how to lethally apply all those techniques. The more things he fights (oozes, forest beasts, undead, hobgoblins, even a Mindwitness) the more he sees how to put those lethal skills into practice.
For the cleric, as they battle the ancient enemy, his link to his deity grows stronger, as does his devotion to his god.
I don't feel that any of this is too fast. I have never ridden a motorbike before, but if I was made to ride one for 12 hours per day for a week I'd become a pretty skilled rider by the end of it. Most average people can take a 5 day driving course and learn how to drive by the end of that.
I don't feel that any of this is too fast. I have never ridden a motorbike before, but if I was made to ride one for 12 hours per day for a week I'd become a pretty skilled rider by the end of it. Most average people can take a 5 day driving course and learn how to drive by the end of that.
I would agree, after a fashion, with most of your post.
This bit, though... You can learn enough to pass a test in that time. If you consider yourself a "pretty skilled rider by the end of" a 5 day course, though, you are likely to come to a sticky end...
I use a system from level 6 forward that the players have to so some aspect of training in between sessions. At like leve;6 it takes 2 weeks and has a set gold cost they have to use. Examples have been:
Cleric spends two weeks working in the orphanage run by the local temple as he also studies scrolls of more knowledge and donates the 200 gp to feed /clothe the kids.
Rogue spends his time farming out bribes to bolster his spy network
Artificers spend money crafting new tools/creations
It seems to work well especially if players pick up a new subclass. It also allows them to possibly develop or lay the foundation for in character arcs. We do this every even numbered level. The duration of said breaks take progressively longer as thy level (we have only reached level 10 which was a 2 month break.
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Appealing to those with much more experience than I. . . how do you all RP leveling? Especially when it occurs so quickly? I'm running a pre-made adventure with milestone leveling. The PC's have been pursuing the adventure, etc. for six weeks of game time and are level 9. I've built in somewhat that clearly there are forces at work which are aiding them in catalyzing their absorption of knowledge, their ability to learn new approaches to combat, etc., but basically at this point the only explanation is divine intervention.
So. . . any thoughts on how to justify, in terms of story, such rapid expansion in their skills, strength, intelligence, etc? Many thanks!
The sentiment is good, but I think sooner or later you have to accept at least some meta in the game. Even if you do create an elaborate in-world mechanism and explanation for leveling up, you still have to actually tell the players "+2 to intelligence" and "you get another hit die". Plus, what if they gained the XP doing something completely unrelated to the stat that's increasing? Maybe your wizard spent every waking moment from level 3 to level 4 bashing stuff over the head with his staff - how would your in game explanation account for their intelligence increasing? No in-game explanation is better than one that doesn't fit the observable facts.
I'd leave the in-world explanation as "you dealt with lots of stuff, so you've gotten better at dealing with stuff" - that's why it's call experience, after all. Then focus your time on other aspects of the game.
My group levels up in the out of game time at the end of the session (even if technically they hit the required XP in the middle of an encounter). I guess it could also happen at the next rest, but they've yet to level up mid way through a session, so I'll deal with that if/when it happens.
I tell the players in the "zero" session that leveling up benefits happen at a long rest, not immediately. That way spell casters can read their spell books, monks and warriors can meditate, etc. As far as the why it is happening, can be creative. Maybe something visited them in their sleep. Maybe they have a talisman with them that enables them to get stronger, learn more spells, etc.
I don't usually RP level up with my players. I think I did it once so far in the campaign we've had going for a couple years now? It was when they went to level 7. The paladin got his aura of devotion so I RP'd a vision from the god he was devoted to and outright stated something that indicated the aura had been granted. The beastmaster ranger had a short RP session with another ranger in the area to train with his companion to explain the exceptional training feature that gets added at L7. The other ranger who was a hunter was presented with the three defensive tactics in the battle that preceded the level up. He then had a choice of which of the three rangers to train with for the day to learn the technique he wanted to pick for that feature.
The party has just leveled up for the first time with their new characters (two of the players had grown tired of the pre-gens they were still playing with from LMoP so we wrote out their existing characters and brought in new characters that excited them more) and I didn't RP anything with level up. But I did give the party 10 spell scrolls (it's loot listed in the module we're running) which the wizard can scribe into his spellbook which lightly RP'd him learning more spells I guess.
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses
Yes, I also leave it until the next long rest. When the characters have that 8 hours of downtime to contemplate what they've been through recently, and realise that there are other strategies that could be applied - either in combat, or in how to control the weave. Or maybe their god/patron sends them a (non-roleplayed) dream to indicate that they are doing well and the god/patron is now willing to provide them with more power.
I don't think of it as a big deal. I stopped using experience to level up and started going with milestone leveling. Generally those milestones happen after a series of adventures and when they get to a major town. At the end of the session I say you made level, adjust your characters for next week.
I have them all using my content in DNDB Character Builder to level up so I don't worry about errors. Then it is assumed they will be taking a rest period in this town and doing their necessary training. Training costs money and if they are training a feat or new something special they have to pay for it. The higher the level the higher the cost of training.
I mean yeah it isn't possible to make it really consistent or realistic within the world. If your heroes can get to l9 in six weeks, there should be thousands of people running around who've been adventuring for a dozen years and are all at level 20+.
I don't really find a rapid advance in skill unrealistic. Imagine if you played a video game 8+ hours a day for six weeks. If you have any natural talent you're going to easily dominate noobs.
Yeah, I've had the same problem. These skills should take much longer to learn. I'm thinking for my next campaign, I'll just write in long breaks between each level up. After all, in The Lord of the Rings, Frodo rested a month in Rivendell and another month in Lorien. It's not hard to imagine Aragorn doing a little training to level up during those breaks!
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I count Levelling up as a "gamified" representation of a continuous process. They don't suddenly, spontaneously develop new skills, they have been doing so over time. It's just that, at the point of levelling, they have developed them to the point where they become useful/usable.
So, the Barbarian or Fighter who gains Extra Attack has been steadily developing his fighting skills/speed of attack, and has finally got to the point where the game can represent this in 2 separate attacks. The spellcaster who learns a new spell has been researching/practising for ages, but has now finally cracked the intricacies and can cast it.
That's my take, anyway, and it works for me.
Not many people are fated, or have the will, to become an adventurer.
Most common folk spend their entire lives working hard, but are still just a 4 hp commoner.
In my campaign multiverse, Those who have class levels are special. There rate of growth and knowledge acquisition is FAR beyond the average person. One of my reoccurring NPC's is a universe hopping Elf Wizard who managed to catch a glimpse past the 4th wall (pretty much) and learn that every universe he visits, there are always around 4-6 people (Characters) who come into power shortly before a great calamity (The plot of the campaign). He also discovered that across his universe hopping, while he's met a LOT of these people, they're really a form of reincarnation of the same force (The player). He calls people with this ability to grow in power beyond the scope of most people the "Potential" (Class levels essentially)
This was originally a goof made to justify why a band of 6 doofuses could become the most competent people in the world, but after the 2nd campaign, it actually became a serious plot point lol.
So whenever something meta comes up (like leveling, or metagame knowledge) I have the easy justification tool of the "Potential" to BS explanations lol
Lol, I think this is a really fun and quirky way to play it... And I may steal it at some point!
I require them to be in town or someplace equivalently both safe AND conducive to learning stuff in order to level up.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If you REALLY wanna steal it, the Elf in question is a very flamboyant Eladrin named Alphonso lol
If you ever saw my post about "Plot Magic" where I made a subclass based around knowing the "plot" of the world (a metagame subclass) This is referring to the same guy lol
Many thanks to all for all of the excellent input, it's truly appreciated! It's a lot more work but I've decided to continue with keeping leveling tied to story.
The paladin and cleric both have been visited in meditation by emissaries of their deities, describing why their increased absorption of knowledge and skill is occurring. Another PC is in contact with an ancestor who has passed, another receives regular readings from a seer who is able to explain why he has been chosen for such rapid advancement, and the last is gaining knowledge from a sentient weapon which is channeling knowledge from a variety of sources and passing it on to the wielder.
Like I say, more work for sure but it just helps me feel like I'm adhering to story as closely as possible. Certainly not prescribing it for others, just something that feels right to me for this campaign.
Thanks again!
When running a pre written campaign I generally never roleplay leveling, players just gain those new abilities and stats as per the level they are, most written campaigns keep the action rolling and so stopping for a long period of downtime to learn new skills and abilities is hard to work into the narrative. For example I have just finished running out of the abyss, for the first 2/3rds of that adventure the pc’s don’t stop constantly moving from one location to the next.
In my homebrew campaigns it depends a little on the narrative and a lot on the players. Some players love to take a step back and RP downtime. If this is the case I will try and pace my adventure so major leveling, when a subclass gets a new ability generally, coincides with downtime, or a nice beat in the story. For instance the Arcane Trickster is close to level 9 I might coincide that level up with a session with another arcane trickster who has magical ambush, they offer to teach the rogue the ability through the session by the end the rogue knows the ability and has leveled up. This is easier with XP leveling as you can pace everyone’s leveling up over a series of sessions giving them all a chance to learn a new skill and spotlight a moment at the new level to show it off.
With Wizards I have in the past told my wizard player as they approach the next major level to think about the next level spells they want to learn, I might then have situations arise where a spell scroll is found, or an NPC adds that new high level spell to there Izard spell book telling them they sense the character is almost ready to attempt it. This means we are not simply saying when the wizard levels up, you now learn 2 additional spells at your new level, what are they. It also gets the player thinking ahead of time about what they want to learn spell wise next.
sorcerors, I will do a similar thing but I will instead roleplay it out. For instance Sorceror levels up and learns Fireball. The very first time they cast it I might say.
“Looking at the creature advancing towards you you reach out for your trusty fire bolt spell, feeling the magic weave its way around your body coalescing at your hand the familiar feeling seems to grow, expanding to encase your very essence. Where you would normally feel the magic peak releasing the volt of fire from your hand it continues to grow. You stand, concentrating wondering just how much more energy you can cast into this spell. Finally you sense the power has reached its zenith, threatening to drain away you release it. A large ball of fire erupts from your hands, exploding on impact. You look at your hand, and then your colleagues. What felt like an eternity to you was a mere second, you stand, feeling drained, unsure where this new power came from you get a sense that, once rested, if required you could summon this new form of magic at will.
Absolutely love all of it, thanks, Scarloc_Stormcall. Extremely helpful!
My campaign's characters have gone from level 1 to level 4 in about 4-5 days of in-game time (approximately 20 hours of play) using standard XP. This is just them unlocking their potential.
You learn far, far more by doing things for real than you do in the classroom. One of my players is a rogue (swashbuckler) from a fencing school. He has spent his teenage years learning the rapier... but only now, putting it into practice, is he learning how to lethally apply all those techniques. The more things he fights (oozes, forest beasts, undead, hobgoblins, even a Mindwitness) the more he sees how to put those lethal skills into practice.
For the cleric, as they battle the ancient enemy, his link to his deity grows stronger, as does his devotion to his god.
I don't feel that any of this is too fast. I have never ridden a motorbike before, but if I was made to ride one for 12 hours per day for a week I'd become a pretty skilled rider by the end of it. Most average people can take a 5 day driving course and learn how to drive by the end of that.
I would agree, after a fashion, with most of your post.
This bit, though... You can learn enough to pass a test in that time. If you consider yourself a "pretty skilled rider by the end of" a 5 day course, though, you are likely to come to a sticky end...
I use a system from level 6 forward that the players have to so some aspect of training in between sessions. At like leve;6 it takes 2 weeks and has a set gold cost they have to use. Examples have been:
It seems to work well especially if players pick up a new subclass. It also allows them to possibly develop or lay the foundation for in character arcs. We do this every even numbered level. The duration of said breaks take progressively longer as thy level (we have only reached level 10 which was a 2 month break.