Riffing off of the "Shell" theme, you could probably make some people happy by taking this in a slightly different direction.
For example, if "Mage Shell" created magical Cover, rather than Armor, then it could boost AC without directly stepping on the toes of other existing spells.
Half Cover: +2 to AC and DEX Saving Throws Three-Quarter Cover: +5 AC and DEX Saving Throws
The spell could provide Half Cover for 1 minute (Concentration), with the option of using a reaction to trigger Total Cover against an attack or spell effect, and ending the spell.
This would stack with spells like Mage Armor, and overlap with other forms of cover, like low walls.
Cool, I really like the triggering function. There is something there for a barrier spell forsure. Your ideas is similar to original AD&D shielding imo...it used to add AC to different things, in dif amounts. Cover as a concept is cool, but in my spell's case, it surrounds the whole body, so it is really not cover, as the enemies can still see you. Worth thinking about...
"Cover" and "Obscurity" are two separate mechanics. What I'm proposing is effectively a personal lesserWall of Force. Everyone can still see you, but there is a semi-permeable barrier/field that deflects attacks. Whether it's glass, force, ice, or something else, it still counts as cover.
Edit: The rules on Cover are a bit confusing as written, but there is [SageAdvice] that helps clear it up.
Edit2: This could also be interpreted to provide cover for allies who position themselves correctly, relative to the caster. (Or it could simply redirect the flow of projectiles/attack to continue on their normal path beyond the caster, which wouldn't benefit anyone else.)
Yes, more good ideas. I think if I make a scaled spell line for this, there are alot of good things above that could open up when you learn the higher level version etc. This then also justifies concentration, as there are more benefits to having this up rather than another concentration spell. I guess I should state, I am not a fan of some of the concentration spells out there, and things that do basics like just at a couple AC...make no sense to me, and no one I know really uses them over the cool concentration spells...Barkskin being one of the example...not sure if I have seen anyone use it ever...
Though...this shielding i am making is much closer to the caster, and possibly even a glow around the skin like Mage Armor in let's say Baldur's Gate 3. So that is why it is really just limited to an AC barrier.
At this point, it's kind of moot, but I like theory crafting this kind of spell.
If your primary concerns are (A) reliance on dexterity (a.k.a movement), and (B) scaling for end game content, then maybe it would be worth introducing a practical drawback to justify increased AC over Mage Armor.
For example, if you introduce a variable costly material component, then it could scale based on wealth. Say, a version of Mage Armor that actually uses armor as an optional spell component.
If the wizard carries Plate armor with them, then casting the spell can essentially give them temporary proficiency with that armor and cause them to magically don it like Ironman armor.
At low levels, they simply won't be able to afford high end armor, but by level 14+, they could use the spell to equip magical armor that would give them even more benefits than just AC.
Yes...yes.../twiddles fingers together like a evil wizard
Maybe make it level 3...and then add some other material components might just do it...something maybe not restrictive to higher levels, but something that limits the amount of times they will be able to cast it rarity wise...looking at higher end spells right now...
Thanks!
EDIT: Plat items might be the answer...something like must wear a plat ring worth over 100gp and uses crushed diamond dust worth over 200g each time, plus it consumes a certain amount of metal?
I like it! There's the material cost of the armor (Plate is expensive!), the having to lug around the armor, the weight of the armor, the time it takes to put the armor on (cutting into the amount of time you benefit from the spell, since you need to gain the proficiency before donning the armor or else you can't cast the spell), the STR requirement (likely reducing speed)... nice >:D
Was thinking, alternatively, 3-level dip in Artificer to gain the Armorer specialization is another possibility for gaining good armor with fewer armor-based drawbacks. Of course that cuts into the Wizard spell levels... Tradeoffs are important.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
EDIT: Plat items might be the answer...something like must wear a plat ring worth over 100gp and uses crushed diamond dust worth over 200g each time, plus it consumes a certain amount of metal?
In 3.5e the rules for magic item creation were essentially that a "Continuous" item should cost 20x the price of a "Single-Use" version, so if we assume that Plate Armor will be the standard reference, then the spell should have a "per use" cost of ~75g, however, that's ignoring the cost of proficiency and other factors.
The line of "Summon X" spells demonstrates a pattern of a non-consumable material component being Spell Level x 100, so as a 3rd level spell, you could do something like:
[300g platinum ring non-consumable, +50/+100/+300 consumed per use for AC 18/19/20]
As long as the caster has the ring, they can default to AC 16 for free, or pay for upgraded armor.
Correction: Continuous was "x2000" and Single-Use was "x50", which is a x40 difference. So, the cost could be closer to +30/+60/+180.
EDIT: Plat items might be the answer...something like must wear a plat ring worth over 100gp and uses crushed diamond dust worth over 200g each time, plus it consumes a certain amount of metal?
In 3.5e the rules for magic item creation were essentially that a "Continuous" item should cost 20x the price of a "Single-Use" version, so if we assume that Plate Armor will be the standard reference, then the spell should have a "per use" cost of ~75g, however, that's ignoring the cost of proficiency and other factors.
The line of "Summon X" spells demonstrates a pattern of a non-consumable material component being Spell Level x 100, so as a 3rd level spell, you could do something like:
[300g platinum ring non-consumable, +50/+100/+300 consumed per use for AC 18/19/20]
As long as the caster has the ring, they can default to AC 16 for free, or pay for upgraded armor.
Correction: Continuous was "x2000" and Single-Use was "x50", which is a x40 difference. So, the cost could be closer to +30/+60/+180.
AC 16 is barkskin. A 2nd level spell. Requires Concentration. Lasts 1 hour.
It is reasonable for a 3rd level spell to do the same, while not requiring concentration and only targeting Self. Less reasonable for it to last 8 hours. Even less reasonable for it to scale up from there for a few GP. Not unless upcast spell slots are involved.
Mage Armor, the 1st level spell this is modelled after is essential +3 AC from normal. Barskin is =6 higher than normal.
The homebrew spell in design is also a =X higher than normal not a +X higher than normal, so it can be slightly higher than a +X spell would be. But, even at 3rd level the spell should not obsolete actual armor. Why does anyone wear regular armor if the best defense is a spell option? You've gotta have an answer to that question. Otherwise why is anyone playing a marital character class?
If the spell gives you 20 AC there is legitimately zero possible reason to ever make an armor wearing character. Armor would be inferior in every way. Fighter in fullplate sittin at 18AC, but some dude in a robe walking around at 20 ac? Add a shield and that's 22, cast the shield spell and its 27. Hasted? 29. Bladedancer huh, yeah I bet. Another +5, now we're at 34. Might as well add a ring of protection for +1, brings us to a neat 35 AC. Only items needed was the ring and a mundane shield. Magic shield? We could go to 38. Cover? 40.
We can keep going. Oh you don't have a +21 to hit? At level.. what, 5? Sorry 95% of every and all attacks misses... the mage.
This spell is more like Barkskin and TBH should be modelled after barkskin not mage armor. That means 1 hour duration and requires concentration.
Here is a version that is already slightly too powerful because it supersedes barkskin slightly and also adds functionality to a class that really doesn't need it.
Magic Shell
Level 2 Abjuration
1 Action
Target: Touch
Last 1 hour (concentration)
V,S,M
You touch a willing creature. Until the spell ends, the target is surrounded and protected by a warding barrier of force, and the target's AC can't be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the AC increases by 1 for every 2 slot levels above 2nd. 17 AC with 4th level slot, 18 AC with a 6th level slot, and 19 AC with an 8th level slot.
This is already better than Barkskin, a spell most spellcasters don't even have access to. So not only would it essentially add it to their list for free but is directly improved because it can be upcast.
If your spell effect is still stronger than this it is super OP. Because even this is OP.
Big AC number are supposed to be hard and only specific builds should even be capable of achieving them. Not just "any guy with a free spell slot". Your spell still makes armor obsolete.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Mage Armor, the 1st level spell this is modelled after is essential +3 AC from normal. Barskin is =6 higher than normal.
Only if you have 0 Dex mod. For many characters, Barkskin gives you about the same AC as Mage Armor, or not even as good. If you have Dex +2, which is pretty easy to get as a secondary stat, Barkskin is only 4 higher than unarmored and only 1 higher than Mage Armor.
If it wasn't obvious, the various mechanics mentioned in the previous posts are being evaluated independently, as part of a normal homebrewing process.
Everything in the game can be broken down into basic components. "Armor" is just a set of costs and benefits that can be stripped down and reinterpreted as a class feature, spell, or any other similar mechanic. Depending on what makes it into the final cut, the other spell parameters would be adjusted for situational balance.
"Armor" provides semi-permanent, reliable defense. "Abjuration Magic" typically provides stronger, more volatile/expensive, defense. Sure, that might mean that someone could burn all of their resources to have better defense than a fighter for most of the day, but that means being unable to do what they're actually good at. If we're going to talk about making armor obsolete, we may as well link to Invulnerability and Barrier Tattoo.
I was going to go into a long-winded dissertation of the bigger picture you're missing, but it's not worth it. Homebrew spells will get made, playtested, and revised. That's life.
If it wasn't obvious, the various mechanics mentioned in the previous posts are being evaluated independently, as part of a normal homebrewing process.
Everything in the game can be broken down into basic components. "Armor" is just a set of costs and benefits that can be stripped down and reinterpreted as a class feature, spell, or any other similar mechanic. Depending on what makes it into the final cut, the other spell parameters would be adjusted for situational balance.
"Armor" provides semi-permanent, reliable defense. "Abjuration Magic" typically provides stronger, more volatile/expensive, defense. Sure, that might mean that someone could burn all of their resources to have better defense than a fighter for most of the day, but that means being unable to do what they're actually good at. If we're going to talk about making armor obsolete, we may as well link to Invulnerability and Barrier Tattoo.
I was going to go into a long-winded dissertation of the bigger picture you're missing, but it's not worth it. Homebrew spells will get made, playtested, and revised. That's life.
A low level spell shouldn't be better than ALL armor choices. Better than that "Very Rare" magic item.
I'm not missing anything. Those numbers presented here for the spell are too high. Period. Nothing is even close.
Mage Armor, the 1st level spell this is modelled after is essential +3 AC from normal. Barskin is =6 higher than normal.
Only if you have 0 Dex mod.
Uh, yeah maybe I'm old, but 10 is normal.
For many characters, Barkskin gives you about the same AC as Mage Armor, or not even as good. If you have Dex +2, which is pretty easy to get as a secondary stat, Barkskin is only 4 higher than unarmored and only 1 higher than Mage Armor.
So, fun fact, if you give someone a concentration-free 8 hour spell that gives them a 20 AC, they're free to DUMP dex, and str... all while having higher armor than people with defensive stats. It's crazy to even consider doing, let alone argue doggedly for it being 'balanced'.
Look at the end of the day i totally understand people are going to homebrew whatever they want in their games. but, objectively, a AC = 20 spell is super, super, super powerful, better than any options that exist at all anywhere. That's just objective truth. Do with it what you want but you can't deny it. Do you have to care? No. But whether you care to balance you game or not doesn't change that the spell being discussed is objectively broken OP.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Look at the end of the day i totally understand people are going to homebrew whatever they want in their games. but, objectively, a AC = 20 spell is super, super, super powerful, better than any options that exist at all anywhere. That's just objective truth. Do with it what you want but you can't deny it. Do you have to care? No. But whether you care to balance you game or not doesn't change that the spell being discussed is objectively broken OP.
A spell that grants AC 20 is "objectively" better than an official spell that grants Immunity to all damage?
I mean, if your concern is about casters with high AC making martial characters obsolete, we already have Tenser's Transformation that gives caster proficiency in ALL armor, extra attack, and a suite of other features.
The ability for Wizards to get AC 20+ from a spell literally already exists as part of the well established ruleset. The only real question is how to balance it if you strip away all of the extras.
You choose one suit of plate armor that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. At the end of the 10 minute casting time, the suit of plate armor magically equips itself to you, and you are considered proficient with it.
* - (A suit of plate armor worth at least 1500g)
For the sake of being thorough, let's use this as a point of reference. It's a "spell" that gives proficiency in Plate Armor for 1 hour, but otherwise carries all of the same burdens as armor, including the 10 minute Donning/Casting process.
Which variables would you want to change to make it a useable spell?
Look at the end of the day i totally understand people are going to homebrew whatever they want in their games. but, objectively, a AC = 20 spell is super, super, super powerful, better than any options that exist at all anywhere. That's just objective truth. Do with it what you want but you can't deny it. Do you have to care? No. But whether you care to balance you game or not doesn't change that the spell being discussed is objectively broken OP.
A spell that grants AC 20 is "objectively" better than an official spell that grants Immunity to all damage?
I mean, if your concern is about casters with high AC making martial characters obsolete, we already have Tenser's Transformation that gives caster proficiency in ALL armor, extra attack, and a suite of other features.
The ability for Wizards to get AC 20+ from a spell literally already exists as part of the core ruleset. The only real question is how to balance it if you strip away all of the extras.
Okay maybe I can approach this from a different angle. Not everyone can see game balance and that's fine. But do you think you could show a better AC option than this proposed spell Just one example of an easy to get low level spell, effect, or ability that grants up to 20 AC. (Hint: They don't exist)
The reason is simple. Its because of the game balance philosophy. It is referred to as Bounded Accuracy. Generally speaking, much of 5e was designed to prevent runaway numbers stacking to silly high values. Especially around AC and +Hit numbers. Specifically them. Only secondarily others like ability checks and saves.
This spell straight up eliminates that core 5e philosophy. It just gives someone higher base AC than any other source, and it eliminates the stat requirements to achieve that high AC. So higher than anything else in existence, and with no stat dependency.
Now, could this spell be balanced? Yes. I've said as much several times. But it needs a real cost. 30g isn't a real cost for the highest possible AC in the game by far. And it needs some restrictions.
Modelling it after Barkskin is the way to go. Make it increase your minimum AC. This way other things can't stack with it. You do that and you've already eliminated most of its brokenness. As for cost? If it is Barkskin 2.0 it needs to be concentration, shorter duration, or be higher level spell slot... or some combination. The original 8 hr concentration-free 1st level spell that gave AC 20 was so astronomically broken it was unbelievable that you guys couldn't see it.
Edit: Oh and your argument here is basically: "Spellcasters already have some ways to trivialize the martial characters so we should FOR SURE add even MORE ways to trivialize them" isn't as compelling as you think it is.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You choose one suit of plate armor that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. At the end of the 10 minute casting time, the suit of plate armor magically equips itself to you, and you are considered proficient with it.
* - (A suit of plate armor worth at least 1500g)
For the sake of being thorough, let's use this as a point of reference. It's a "spell" that gives proficiency in Plate Armor for 1 hour, but otherwise carries all of the same burdens as armor, including the 10 minute Donning/Casting process.
Which variables would you want to change to make it a useable spell?
This spell isn't broken. But it isn't at all what the OP described either.
If I could change this? I'd add something in there about what happens if the spell ends early. And the ability to end it early. The armor should fall right on off, imo.
I'd also change it from plate to any just any heavy armor. If someone wants to use this with ring mail, chain mail, or splint then that is fine. This also makes it compatible with magical armor.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Clearly there has been a level of miscommunication that deserves a refresh, for the sake of civility, if nothing else.
Keeping in mind that classes like Cleric (War Domain) already get proficiency in Heavy Armor as a 1st level feature despite being full casters. How about you toss up a mock spell based on the previous conversations that you would be comfortable with, and we can discuss it from there.
Edit: Also keep in mind that I was one of the first critics of the OP's original spell outline. I was never supporting the "original" spell. You may have missed when he said that he was looking into higher level spells. That's what I've been chewing on.
This spell isn't broken. But it isn't at all what the OP described either.
If I could change this? I'd add something in there about what happens if the spell ends early. And the ability to end it early. The armor should fall right on off, imo.
I'd also change it from plate to any just any heavy armor. If someone wants to use this with ring mail, chain mail, or splint then that is fine. This also makes it compatible with magical armor.
Sure, that's all reasonable. The "Magical" Heavy Armor spell was just meant to stick a pin in the most extreme example, so including lower AC options is perfectly safe. I also agree that the armor would simply drop to the floor.
Ok, since we're continuing to make some progress, let's try a variant of the "Magical" Plate Armor spell.
This replaces the physical armor with a more manageable material component of the same cost, and introduces a mechanism for extending the duration similar to how Animate Dead can either raise 1 or maintain control over 3.
So, in order to maintain Plate Armor for 8 hours, it would minimally cost 1x 3rd level spell, 3x 1st level spell slots, 2x 2nd level spell slots.
Is this something you could see yourself using in actual play? Would you want to make it more restrictive, or less?
Mystra's Might
LEVEL
3nd
CASTING TIME
10 Minutes
RANGE/AREA
Touch
COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
DURATION
1 Hour
SCHOOL
Abjuration
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Buff (...)
You hold a platinum figurine that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. At the end of the 10 minute casting time, the figurine expands and wraps around you to form a suit of Platinum Heavy Armor. You choose the form that this armor takes from the Heavy Armor list at the time of casting. You are considered proficient with this armor, and must otherwise adhere to the normal rules associated with wearing the chosen armor.
At any time while this spell is active, you can expend a spell slot and spend 1 Minute to extend the duration of this spell by a number of hours equal to the level of spell slot expended.
* - (A platinum figurine of a knight worth at least 1500g)
I generally agree that a spell like this shouldn't be any lower than 3rd level simply for the sake of giving low level fighters an opportunity to stay ahead of the curve during the formative stage of play.
Edit: Also, by changing up the wording, it eliminates the inventory weight of lugging the armor around, but also precludes the possibility of equipping magical armor.
Edit2: Maybe it should be a 1 Minute Ritual spell.
If it wasn't obvious, the various mechanics mentioned in the previous posts are being evaluated independently, as part of a normal homebrewing process.
Everything in the game can be broken down into basic components. "Armor" is just a set of costs and benefits that can be stripped down and reinterpreted as a class feature, spell, or any other similar mechanic. Depending on what makes it into the final cut, the other spell parameters would be adjusted for situational balance.
"Armor" provides semi-permanent, reliable defense. "Abjuration Magic" typically provides stronger, more volatile/expensive, defense. Sure, that might mean that someone could burn all of their resources to have better defense than a fighter for most of the day, but that means being unable to do what they're actually good at. If we're going to talk about making armor obsolete, we may as well link to Invulnerability and Barrier Tattoo.
I was going to go into a long-winded dissertation of the bigger picture you're missing, but it's not worth it. Homebrew spells will get made, playtested, and revised. That's life.
A low level spell shouldn't be better than ALL armor choices. Better than that "Very Rare" magic item.
I'm not missing anything. Those numbers presented here for the spell are too high. Period. Nothing is even close.
Mage Armor, the 1st level spell this is modelled after is essential +3 AC from normal. Barskin is =6 higher than normal.
Only if you have 0 Dex mod.
Uh, yeah maybe I'm old, but 10 is normal.
For many characters, Barkskin gives you about the same AC as Mage Armor, or not even as good. If you have Dex +2, which is pretty easy to get as a secondary stat, Barkskin is only 4 higher than unarmored and only 1 higher than Mage Armor.
So, fun fact, if you give someone a concentration-free 8 hour spell that gives them a 20 AC, they're free to DUMP dex, and str... all while having higher armor than people with defensive stats. It's crazy to even consider doing, let alone argue doggedly for it being 'balanced'.
Look at the end of the day i totally understand people are going to homebrew whatever they want in their games. but, objectively, a AC = 20 spell is super, super, super powerful, better than any options that exist at all anywhere. That's just objective truth. Do with it what you want but you can't deny it. Do you have to care? No. But whether you care to balance you game or not doesn't change that the spell being discussed is objectively broken OP.
Hey Ravnodaus, sorry for not jumping in as well, but I was sleeping and busy this morning. I think Memnosyne's responses were done well, so I do not have much more to say to other than one thing. This just does not grant 20 AC at L1...you will only get 20 AC end game, after L17, which is a non issue to me. The point of the spell is to dump dex as well, and by L17-20 be better...as it should be...it is magic and on a fricken level 20 Wizard! Also, one of my really old builds had Mage Armor up (for the apparently OP 8hrs), +5 dex modifier, +2 Bracers of Defence...that was 20 ac right there...and that was NOT end game (I stress that I do not use point buy systems, they suck, so rolling sometimes gives better stat arrays). I really think people need to get off the idea of 20 ac being OP...really do.
Ok, since we're continuing to make some progress, let's try a variant of the "Magical" Plate Armor spell.
This replaces the physical armor with a more manageable material component of the same cost, and introduces a mechanism for extending the duration similar to how Animate Dead can either raise 1 or maintain control over 3.
So, in order to maintain Plate Armor for 8 hours, it would minimally cost 1x 3rd level spell, 3x 1st level spell slots, 2x 2nd level spell slots.
Is this something you could see yourself using in actual play? Would you want to make it more restrictive, or less?
Mystra's Might
LEVEL
3nd
CASTING TIME
10 Minutes
RANGE/AREA
Touch
COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
DURATION
1 Hour
SCHOOL
Abjuration
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Buff (...)
You hold a platinum figurine that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. At the end of the 10 minute casting time, the figurine expands and wraps around you to form a suit of Platinum Heavy Armor. You choose the form that this armor takes from the Heavy Armor list at the time of casting. You are considered proficient with this armor, and must otherwise adhere to the normal rules associated with wearing the chosen armor.
At any time while this spell is active, you can expend a spell slot and spend 1 Minute to extend the duration of this spell by a number of hours equal to the level of spell slot expended.
* - (A platinum figurine of a knight worth at least 1500g)
I generally agree that a spell like this shouldn't be any lower than 3rd level simply for the sake of giving low level fighters an opportunity to stay ahead of the curve during the formative stage of play.
Edit: Also, by changing up the wording, it eliminates the inventory weight of lugging the armor around, but also precludes the possibility of equipping magical armor.
Edit2: Maybe it should be a 1 Minute Ritual spell.
Umm this is awesome, this is like Elderscolls armor summoning, but with rules and restrictions. Now, this is not what I am trying to achieve, but I 100% thought about making as well, so ya nice work here. I am not sure if the extra minute part of the up cast is necessary though and I agree with your edit about lowering the overall time, this should be something that a caster could do just before battle, or entering a cave, if it is only going to last for a finite amount of time. Also, maybe I missed this in all the posts above, but lower levels spell versions of this could start with iron figurines, which can only summon lesser heavy armors, then maybe steel at the 3rd spell levels, that can do plate...then higher spell levels do theplatinum figurine for a better armor. Each with their own spell name like you have done above. Mystra's "Something" for the lesser spells, then the Might for the Platinum higher level spell etc.
EDIT: plus from a roleplay perspective, you would have to find the Platinum to use, then find a good Smith who can work with Plat...then have it made, odds are you will not find or be able to buy the complete figurine in a store, well as a DM I would have that chance very low.
Hey Ravnodaus, sorry for not jumping in as well, but I was sleeping and busy this morning. I think Memnosyne's responses were done well, so I do not have much more to say to other than one thing.
Okay.
This just does not grant 20 AC at L1...you will only get 20 AC end game, after L17, which is a non issue to me.
If it is a non-issue then change it to something balanced?
The point of the spell is to dump dex
That is what i figured. You want to design a low resource spell that allows you to entirely redistribute stats into something else. Yet, cannot see why it is too powerful...
as well, and by L17-20 be better...as it should be...it is magic and on a fricken level 20 Wizard!
The issue isn't so much that a L20 wizard should be powerful, it is that you want him to be more powerful than all other classes and to spend very little/no actual resources to do it.
Also, one of my really old builds had Mage Armor up (for the apparently OP 8hrs), +5 dex modifier, +2 Bracers of Defence...that was 20 ac right there...and that was NOT end game (I stress that I do not use point buy systems, they suck, so rolling sometimes gives better stat arrays).
You want to replace the results of a 20 Dexterity stats investment, a L1 magic spell, and a rare magic item with... a L1 magic spell.
???
How do you not see this as OP? It is just straight up nonsensical for you to persist in this argument.
Can you homebrew an super OP spell? yes of course you can. But claiming it isn't broken OP is just silly. It clearly is.
I really think people need to get off the idea of 20 ac being OP...really do.
20 total AC isn't so OP. 20 AC from a single L1 spell that YOU CAN STACK MORE AC ON TOP OF is OP.
You're talking about a way to jump your AC to 20... that bladedancing stacks with, that bracers of defense or even a magic shield stack with, that other spell effects stack with.
Your AC is going to be hovering in the 30s. That IS OP.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Also, one of my really old builds had Mage Armor up (for the apparently OP 8hrs), +5 dex modifier, +2 Bracers of Defence...that was 20 ac right there...and that was NOT end game (I stress that I do not use point buy systems, they suck, so rolling sometimes gives better stat arrays).
You want to replace the results of a 20 Dexterity stats investment, a L1 magic spell, and a rare magic item with... a L1 magic spell.
I think you keep missing the fact that he changed it so it does not grant AC 20 at level 1.
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At this point, it's kind of moot, but I like theory crafting this kind of spell.
If your primary concerns are (A) reliance on dexterity (a.k.a movement), and (B) scaling for end game content, then maybe it would be worth introducing a practical drawback to justify increased AC over Mage Armor.
For example, if you introduce a variable costly material component, then it could scale based on wealth. Say, a version of Mage Armor that actually uses armor as an optional spell component.
If the wizard carries Plate armor with them, then casting the spell can essentially give them temporary proficiency with that armor and cause them to magically don it like Ironman armor.
At low levels, they simply won't be able to afford high end armor, but by level 14+, they could use the spell to equip magical armor that would give them even more benefits than just AC.
Yes...yes.../twiddles fingers together like a evil wizard
Maybe make it level 3...and then add some other material components might just do it...something maybe not restrictive to higher levels, but something that limits the amount of times they will be able to cast it rarity wise...looking at higher end spells right now...
Thanks!
EDIT: Plat items might be the answer...something like must wear a plat ring worth over 100gp and uses crushed diamond dust worth over 200g each time, plus it consumes a certain amount of metal?
Yay, progress!
You could emulate spells like Creation that have variable duration based on the material produced.
e.g.
I like it! There's the material cost of the armor (Plate is expensive!), the having to lug around the armor, the weight of the armor, the time it takes to put the armor on (cutting into the amount of time you benefit from the spell, since you need to gain the proficiency before donning the armor or else you can't cast the spell), the STR requirement (likely reducing speed)... nice >:D
Was thinking, alternatively, 3-level dip in Artificer to gain the Armorer specialization is another possibility for gaining good armor with fewer armor-based drawbacks. Of course that cuts into the Wizard spell levels... Tradeoffs are important.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
In 3.5e the rules for magic item creation were essentially that a "Continuous" item should cost 20x the price of a "Single-Use" version, so if we assume that Plate Armor will be the standard reference, then the spell should have a "per use" cost of ~75g, however, that's ignoring the cost of proficiency and other factors.
The line of "Summon X" spells demonstrates a pattern of a non-consumable material component being Spell Level x 100, so as a 3rd level spell, you could do something like:
[300g platinum ring non-consumable, +50/+100/+300 consumed per use for AC 18/19/20]
As long as the caster has the ring, they can default to AC 16 for free, or pay for upgraded armor.
Correction: Continuous was "x2000" and Single-Use was "x50", which is a x40 difference. So, the cost could be closer to +30/+60/+180.
AC 16 is barkskin. A 2nd level spell. Requires Concentration. Lasts 1 hour.
It is reasonable for a 3rd level spell to do the same, while not requiring concentration and only targeting Self. Less reasonable for it to last 8 hours. Even less reasonable for it to scale up from there for a few GP. Not unless upcast spell slots are involved.
Mage Armor, the 1st level spell this is modelled after is essential +3 AC from normal. Barskin is =6 higher than normal.
The homebrew spell in design is also a =X higher than normal not a +X higher than normal, so it can be slightly higher than a +X spell would be. But, even at 3rd level the spell should not obsolete actual armor. Why does anyone wear regular armor if the best defense is a spell option? You've gotta have an answer to that question. Otherwise why is anyone playing a marital character class?
If the spell gives you 20 AC there is legitimately zero possible reason to ever make an armor wearing character. Armor would be inferior in every way. Fighter in fullplate sittin at 18AC, but some dude in a robe walking around at 20 ac? Add a shield and that's 22, cast the shield spell and its 27. Hasted? 29. Bladedancer huh, yeah I bet. Another +5, now we're at 34. Might as well add a ring of protection for +1, brings us to a neat 35 AC. Only items needed was the ring and a mundane shield. Magic shield? We could go to 38. Cover? 40.
We can keep going. Oh you don't have a +21 to hit? At level.. what, 5? Sorry 95% of every and all attacks misses... the mage.
This spell is more like Barkskin and TBH should be modelled after barkskin not mage armor. That means 1 hour duration and requires concentration.
Here is a version that is already slightly too powerful because it supersedes barkskin slightly and also adds functionality to a class that really doesn't need it.
This is already better than Barkskin, a spell most spellcasters don't even have access to. So not only would it essentially add it to their list for free but is directly improved because it can be upcast.
If your spell effect is still stronger than this it is super OP. Because even this is OP.
Big AC number are supposed to be hard and only specific builds should even be capable of achieving them. Not just "any guy with a free spell slot". Your spell still makes armor obsolete.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Only if you have 0 Dex mod. For many characters, Barkskin gives you about the same AC as Mage Armor, or not even as good. If you have Dex +2, which is pretty easy to get as a secondary stat, Barkskin is only 4 higher than unarmored and only 1 higher than Mage Armor.
If it wasn't obvious, the various mechanics mentioned in the previous posts are being evaluated independently, as part of a normal homebrewing process.
Everything in the game can be broken down into basic components. "Armor" is just a set of costs and benefits that can be stripped down and reinterpreted as a class feature, spell, or any other similar mechanic. Depending on what makes it into the final cut, the other spell parameters would be adjusted for situational balance.
"Armor" provides semi-permanent, reliable defense. "Abjuration Magic" typically provides stronger, more volatile/expensive, defense. Sure, that might mean that someone could burn all of their resources to have better defense than a fighter for most of the day, but that means being unable to do what they're actually good at. If we're going to talk about making armor obsolete, we may as well link to Invulnerability and Barrier Tattoo.
I was going to go into a long-winded dissertation of the bigger picture you're missing, but it's not worth it. Homebrew spells will get made, playtested, and revised. That's life.
A low level spell shouldn't be better than ALL armor choices. Better than that "Very Rare" magic item.
I'm not missing anything. Those numbers presented here for the spell are too high. Period. Nothing is even close.
Uh, yeah maybe I'm old, but 10 is normal.
So, fun fact, if you give someone a concentration-free 8 hour spell that gives them a 20 AC, they're free to DUMP dex, and str... all while having higher armor than people with defensive stats. It's crazy to even consider doing, let alone argue doggedly for it being 'balanced'.
Look at the end of the day i totally understand people are going to homebrew whatever they want in their games. but, objectively, a AC = 20 spell is super, super, super powerful, better than any options that exist at all anywhere. That's just objective truth. Do with it what you want but you can't deny it. Do you have to care? No. But whether you care to balance you game or not doesn't change that the spell being discussed is objectively broken OP.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spell that grants AC 20 is "objectively" better than an official spell that grants Immunity to all damage?
I mean, if your concern is about casters with high AC making martial characters obsolete, we already have Tenser's Transformation that gives caster proficiency in ALL armor, extra attack, and a suite of other features.
The ability for Wizards to get AC 20+ from a spell literally already exists as part of the well established ruleset. The only real question is how to balance it if you strip away all of the extras.
For the sake of being thorough, let's use this as a point of reference. It's a "spell" that gives proficiency in Plate Armor for 1 hour, but otherwise carries all of the same burdens as armor, including the 10 minute Donning/Casting process.
Which variables would you want to change to make it a useable spell?
Okay maybe I can approach this from a different angle. Not everyone can see game balance and that's fine. But do you think you could show a better AC option than this proposed spell Just one example of an easy to get low level spell, effect, or ability that grants up to 20 AC. (Hint: They don't exist)
The reason is simple. Its because of the game balance philosophy. It is referred to as Bounded Accuracy. Generally speaking, much of 5e was designed to prevent runaway numbers stacking to silly high values. Especially around AC and +Hit numbers. Specifically them. Only secondarily others like ability checks and saves.
This spell straight up eliminates that core 5e philosophy. It just gives someone higher base AC than any other source, and it eliminates the stat requirements to achieve that high AC. So higher than anything else in existence, and with no stat dependency.
Now, could this spell be balanced? Yes. I've said as much several times. But it needs a real cost. 30g isn't a real cost for the highest possible AC in the game by far. And it needs some restrictions.
Modelling it after Barkskin is the way to go. Make it increase your minimum AC. This way other things can't stack with it. You do that and you've already eliminated most of its brokenness. As for cost? If it is Barkskin 2.0 it needs to be concentration, shorter duration, or be higher level spell slot... or some combination. The original 8 hr concentration-free 1st level spell that gave AC 20 was so astronomically broken it was unbelievable that you guys couldn't see it.
Edit: Oh and your argument here is basically: "Spellcasters already have some ways to trivialize the martial characters so we should FOR SURE add even MORE ways to trivialize them" isn't as compelling as you think it is.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This spell isn't broken. But it isn't at all what the OP described either.
If I could change this? I'd add something in there about what happens if the spell ends early. And the ability to end it early. The armor should fall right on off, imo.
I'd also change it from plate to any just any heavy armor. If someone wants to use this with ring mail, chain mail, or splint then that is fine. This also makes it compatible with magical armor.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Clearly there has been a level of miscommunication that deserves a refresh, for the sake of civility, if nothing else.
Keeping in mind that classes like Cleric (War Domain) already get proficiency in Heavy Armor as a 1st level feature despite being full casters. How about you toss up a mock spell based on the previous conversations that you would be comfortable with, and we can discuss it from there.
Edit: Also keep in mind that I was one of the first critics of the OP's original spell outline. I was never supporting the "original" spell. You may have missed when he said that he was looking into higher level spells. That's what I've been chewing on.
Sure, that's all reasonable. The "Magical" Heavy Armor spell was just meant to stick a pin in the most extreme example, so including lower AC options is perfectly safe. I also agree that the armor would simply drop to the floor.
Ok, since we're continuing to make some progress, let's try a variant of the "Magical" Plate Armor spell.
This replaces the physical armor with a more manageable material component of the same cost, and introduces a mechanism for extending the duration similar to how Animate Dead can either raise 1 or maintain control over 3.
So, in order to maintain Plate Armor for 8 hours, it would minimally cost 1x 3rd level spell, 3x 1st level spell slots, 2x 2nd level spell slots.
Is this something you could see yourself using in actual play? Would you want to make it more restrictive, or less?
Hey Ravnodaus, sorry for not jumping in as well, but I was sleeping and busy this morning. I think Memnosyne's responses were done well, so I do not have much more to say to other than one thing. This just does not grant 20 AC at L1...you will only get 20 AC end game, after L17, which is a non issue to me. The point of the spell is to dump dex as well, and by L17-20 be better...as it should be...it is magic and on a fricken level 20 Wizard! Also, one of my really old builds had Mage Armor up (for the apparently OP 8hrs), +5 dex modifier, +2 Bracers of Defence...that was 20 ac right there...and that was NOT end game (I stress that I do not use point buy systems, they suck, so rolling sometimes gives better stat arrays). I really think people need to get off the idea of 20 ac being OP...really do.
Umm this is awesome, this is like Elderscolls armor summoning, but with rules and restrictions. Now, this is not what I am trying to achieve, but I 100% thought about making as well, so ya nice work here. I am not sure if the extra minute part of the up cast is necessary though and I agree with your edit about lowering the overall time, this should be something that a caster could do just before battle, or entering a cave, if it is only going to last for a finite amount of time. Also, maybe I missed this in all the posts above, but lower levels spell versions of this could start with iron figurines, which can only summon lesser heavy armors, then maybe steel at the 3rd spell levels, that can do plate...then higher spell levels do the platinum figurine for a better armor. Each with their own spell name like you have done above. Mystra's "Something" for the lesser spells, then the Might for the Platinum higher level spell etc.
EDIT: plus from a roleplay perspective, you would have to find the Platinum to use, then find a good Smith who can work with Plat...then have it made, odds are you will not find or be able to buy the complete figurine in a store, well as a DM I would have that chance very low.
Okay.
If it is a non-issue then change it to something balanced?
That is what i figured. You want to design a low resource spell that allows you to entirely redistribute stats into something else. Yet, cannot see why it is too powerful...
The issue isn't so much that a L20 wizard should be powerful, it is that you want him to be more powerful than all other classes and to spend very little/no actual resources to do it.
You want to replace the results of a 20 Dexterity stats investment, a L1 magic spell, and a rare magic item with... a L1 magic spell.
???
How do you not see this as OP? It is just straight up nonsensical for you to persist in this argument.
Can you homebrew an super OP spell? yes of course you can. But claiming it isn't broken OP is just silly. It clearly is.
20 total AC isn't so OP. 20 AC from a single L1 spell that YOU CAN STACK MORE AC ON TOP OF is OP.
You're talking about a way to jump your AC to 20... that bladedancing stacks with, that bracers of defense or even a magic shield stack with, that other spell effects stack with.
Your AC is going to be hovering in the 30s. That IS OP.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think you keep missing the fact that he changed it so it does not grant AC 20 at level 1.