Ok, so I've created this Archdevil for my Homebrew campaign, essentially she was a vampire sorceress who killed Mephistopheles and took his throne as The Hellfire Mistress. Now, I've set her stats, but I'm not sure about what CR she's worth (I have a problem with assessing CR with Spellcasting Legendary Monsters). Here are the stats (I know it's quite a lot to read, mainly because of her Vampire features, so I'll assume you all know the Vampire base abilities and put those in smaller scale so you can skip them easily. Also, I haven't decided her Hp yet, so if you can help me decide a CR with the rest of her abilieties, she'll have the recommended hp for that CR.
Whisper (proficiency 7)
Medium undead (shapechanger), lawful evil_____________________________________________________
Armor class 20 (Natural Armor, Magic Items)
Hit points ????
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft. ____________________________________________________________________________
Shapechanger: If Whisper isn't in sun light or running water, it can use its action to Polymorph into a Tiny bat, a Medium cloud of mist, or back into its true form. While in bat form, the vampire can't speak, its walking speed is 5 feet, and it has a flying speed of 30 feet. Its Statistics, other than its size and speed, are unchanged. Anything she is wearing transforms with it, but nothing it is carrying does. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
While in mist form, the vampire can't take any actions, speak, or manipulate Objects. It is weightless, has a flying speed of 20 feet, can hover, and can enter a hostile creature's space and stop there. In addition, if air can pass through a space, the mist can do so without squeezing, and it can't pass through water. It has advantage on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution saving throws, and it is immune to all nonmagical damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.
Misty Escape: When it drops to 0 hit points outside its Resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of Falling Unconscious, provided that it isn't in sunlight or running water. If it can't transform, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its Resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its Resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then Paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its Resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point.
Regeneration: The vampire regains 20 hit points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sunlight or running water. If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn.
Spider Climb: The vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Vampire Weaknesses: The vampire has the following flaws:
Forbiddance. The vampire can't enter a residence without an invitation from one of the occupants.
Harmed by Running Water. The vampire takes 20 acid damage if it ends its turn in running water.
Stake to the Heart. If a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into the vampire's heart while the vampire is Incapacitated in its Resting place, the vampire is Paralyzed until the stake is removed.
Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks.
Devil’s Sight: Magical darkness doesn’t impede the devil’s darkvision.
Magic Resistance: The devil has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Spellcasting: Whisper is a 20th-level spellcaster. Her spellcasting ability is Charisma (save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Whisper knows the following spells:
Innate Spellcasting: Whisper’s innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Whisper can innately cast the following Spells, requiring no material components:
Multiattack: Whisper makes two attacks, only one of which can be a kiss attack.
The Crimson Flame: Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 10ft., one targer. Hit: 13 (1d10+8) slashing damage plus 22 (5d8) fire damage.
The Kiss: Melee Weapon Attack: +12 to hit, reach 5 ft., one willing creature, or a creature that is Grappled by Whisper, Charmed, Incapacitated, or Restrained. Hit: 8 (1d6 + 5) piercing damage plus 10 (3d6) necrotic damage and 18 (5d6) psychic damage. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic and psychic damage taken, and Whisper regains hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a Long Rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain in this way and then buried in the ground rises the following night as a Vampire Spawn under Whisper’s control.
Summon Devil (1/day): The devil chooses what to summon and attempts a magical summoning. Whisper summons 2d4 barbed devils, 1d4 Erinyes or a horned devil with no chance of failure. A summoned devil appears in an unoccupied space within 60 feet of its summoner, acts as an ally of its summoner, and can’t summon other devils. It remains for 1 minute, until it or its summoner dies, or until its summoner dismisses it as an action.
Whisper can take 4 Legendary Actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and only at the end of another creature's turn. Spent legendary actions are regained at the start of each turn.
Move: Whisper moves up to her speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Cantrip: Whisper casts a cantrip.
Attack: Whisper makes an attack with the Crimson Flame.
Kiss(Costs 2 Actions): Whisper makes one kiss attack.
Spell (Costs 2 actions): Whisper casts a spell.
Equipment:
Whisper possesses a plethough of powerful magic items, of which the most notable is an exhalted Crimson Flame artifact. These make it so that:
The Crimson Flame:
When she deals fire damage, she can reroll 1’s and 2’s and ignore fire resistance. She is also immune to fire damage.
While wearing this ring, she is immune to magic that allows other creatures to read her thoughts, determine whether she is lying, know her alignment, or know her creature type. Creatures can telepathically communicate with her only if she allos it.
Calculating CR is impossible without knowing how many hit points the creature has.
Assuming 20d8 hit dice, as the creature you present is a 20th-level spell caster, it would have 170 hit points.
Adding effective hit points for legendary resistance 4/day (+30 each use) and regeneration (+3 per point of regeneration), and multiplying for multiple resistances/immunities at an expected CR of 17+ (x1.25) gives an effective hit point total of 438. Referencing the appropriate table shows that to be the CR 21 row.
The effective AC of 22 after the increase from magic resistance (+2) adjusts the above by 1 point for every 2 points over the listed AC on the same row (19, so in this case only +1), giving us a Defensive CR value of 22.
Then we go to working out the average damage per round. With a spellcasting creature that can be tricky, and it is further complicated with legendary actions. However, I've done a bit of work on figuring out the highest damage output I can see being possible (which is the damage value CR is meant to be based on). It appears that the creature could be most potentially devastating with the following configuration of attack options in each of the first 3 rounds:
Meteor swarm as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 7th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 8th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 7th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
That, adjusting the area effects to count as hitting twice, and then averaged across those rounds gives us an average damage value of 379, which is off the charts (both literally and figuratively). That sets the offensive CR on the CR 30 row so far.
Next we compare the save DC, as that's the more important factor than attack bonus in the above damage-dealing scheme, to what is listed on the table and find that since it is 23 it is right where it should be.
And finally, we average the offensive and defensive CR numbers from above to arrive at a CR of 26, which the book advises should be adjusted up or down if that feels necessary after play-testing.
Calculating CR is impossible without knowing how many hit points the creature has.
Assuming 20d8 hit dice, as the creature you present is a 20th-level spell caster, it would have 170 hit points.
Adding effective hit points for legendary resistance 4/day (+30 each use) and regeneration (+3 per point of regeneration), and multiplying for multiple resistances/immunities at an expected CR of 17+ (x1.25) gives an effective hit point total of 438. Referencing the appropriate table shows that to be the CR 21 row.
The effective AC of 22 after the increase from magic resistance (+2) adjusts the above by 1 point for every 2 points over the listed AC on the same row (19, so in this case only +1), giving us a Defensive CR value of 22.
Thank you. I was not looking forward to doing those calculations.
Then we go to working out the average damage per round. With a spellcasting creature that can be tricky, and it is further complicated with legendary actions. However, I've done a bit of work on figuring out the highest damage output I can see being possible (which is the damage value CR is meant to be based on). It appears that the creature could be most potentially devastating with the following configuration of attack options in each of the first 3 rounds:
Meteor swarm as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 7th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 8th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 7th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
That, adjusting the area effects to count as hitting twice, and then averaged across those rounds gives us an average damage value of 379, which is off the charts (both literally and figuratively). That sets the offensive CR on the CR 30 row so far.
I wasn't looking forward to the damage-per-round calculations, either, especially as the thing's listed as having 4 legendary actions instead of the usual three, so thanks again.
That damage may be off the charts, literally and figuratively, but that doesn't mean I can't calculate the monster's offensive CR. That column, the damage-per-round column, has a range of 17 in every row from the CR 20 row to the CR 30 row, so it's fairly reasonable to assume that that pattern will continue for the next few rows. That assumption puts it at base offensive CR 34. That figure puts it at CR 28, giving a proficiency bonus of +8, which probably increases the save DCs from 23 to 24. Another pattern, slightly less precise than the previous one, puts the expected save DC for offensive CR 34 at 24; it takes a difference of at least 2 between the expected and actual save DCs to change the offensive CR, so offensive CR 34, so CR 28.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
...the thing's listed as having 4 legendary actions instead of the usual three...
Which means my average damage calculations are incorrect... I noticed the 4 uses of legendary resistance, but not the 4 legendary actions.
That means instead of the crimson flame attack legendary action there would actually be even more leveled-up fireball spells going on, so the average damage per round would be higher (I don't know how much by because I'm not going to re-do the math slotting in more fireballs and switching around the levels of spell slots used to maximize damage output - rough estimate is it's probably 40-50 more damage per round).
Calculating CR is impossible without knowing how many hit points the creature has.
Assuming 20d8 hit dice, as the creature you present is a 20th-level spell caster, it would have 170 hit points.
Adding effective hit points for legendary resistance 4/day (+30 each use) and regeneration (+3 per point of regeneration), and multiplying for multiple resistances/immunities at an expected CR of 17+ (x1.25) gives an effective hit point total of 438. Referencing the appropriate table shows that to be the CR 21 row.
The effective AC of 22 after the increase from magic resistance (+2) adjusts the above by 1 point for every 2 points over the listed AC on the same row (19, so in this case only +1), giving us a Defensive CR value of 22.
Then we go to working out the average damage per round. With a spellcasting creature that can be tricky, and it is further complicated with legendary actions. However, I've done a bit of work on figuring out the highest damage output I can see being possible (which is the damage value CR is meant to be based on). It appears that the creature could be most potentially devastating with the following configuration of attack options in each of the first 3 rounds:
Meteor swarm as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 7th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 8th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
Fireball cast at 7th-level as its action and via 2 legendary actions, an attack with crimson flame as its 3rd legendary action, and hellish rebuke cast at 6th-level as its reaction
That, adjusting the area effects to count as hitting twice, and then averaged across those rounds gives us an average damage value of 379, which is off the charts (both literally and figuratively). That sets the offensive CR on the CR 30 row so far.
Next we compare the save DC, as that's the more important factor than attack bonus in the above damage-dealing scheme, to what is listed on the table and find that since it is 23 it is right where it should be.
And finally, we average the offensive and defensive CR numbers from above to arrive at a CR of 26, which the book advises should be adjusted up or down if that feels necessary after play-testing.
Thank you for the great help! As I said, evaluating spellcasters is hard for me :). Only little precisation you missed the 4th legendary action (so that is another 35 average per round damage, taking it up to 414dmg per round). So, we'll consider this taking offensive to 31. Also, I was thinking about giving her quite a bit more than 20d8 hit dice, mainly because she is also a powerful vampire (and vampires have 17d8 base hit dice). So, I was thinking more about 30d8 or something, which would put her at 255hp->435*1.25=543 (so CR 24). +1 for AC, we get to 25 defensive.
So I'm guessing with these changes, the final would be about 28?
Thank you for the great help! As I said, evaluating spellcasters is hard for me :). Only little precisation you missed the 4th legendary action (so that is another 35 average per round damage, taking it up to 414dmg per round). So, we'll consider this taking offensive to 31. Also, I was thinking about giving her quite a bit more than 20d8 hit dice, mainly because she is also a powerful vampire (and vampires have 17d8 base hit dice). So, I was thinking more about 30d8 or something, which would put her at 255hp->435*1.25=543 (so CR 24). +1 for AC, we get to 25 defensive.
So I'm guessing with these changes, the final would be about 28?
You are welcome. And to correct my imprecision, I've recalculated average damage.
Thanks to having 4 legendary actions, this creature can manage to cast meteor swarm twice, fireball at 8th-level twice, 7th-level three times, and 6th-level twice, while using its reactions to cast hellish rebuke at 6th-level once and 5th-level twice within the first three rounds of combat. That makes its average damage over those three rounds 423.
Using Matthias' observations to extend the table past CR 30, that would make for CR 36, which would come down to 35 because of the save DC 23 being 2 points lower than the projected 25 for CR 36. Combining that with your adjusted defensive CR for the additional hit dice, the final CR comes out to CR 30.
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Ok, so I've created this Archdevil for my Homebrew campaign, essentially she was a vampire sorceress who killed Mephistopheles and took his throne as The Hellfire Mistress. Now, I've set her stats, but I'm not sure about what CR she's worth (I have a problem with assessing CR with Spellcasting Legendary Monsters). Here are the stats (I know it's quite a lot to read, mainly because of her Vampire features, so I'll assume you all know the Vampire base abilities and put those in smaller scale so you can skip them easily. Also, I haven't decided her Hp yet, so if you can help me decide a CR with the rest of her abilieties, she'll have the recommended hp for that CR.
Whisper (proficiency 7)
Medium undead (shapechanger), lawful evil_____________________________________________________
Armor class 20 (Natural Armor, Magic Items)
Hit points ????
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft. ____________________________________________________________________________
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
14(+2) 20(+5) 18(+4) 17(+3) 12(+1) 27(+8) ___________________________________________________
Saving Throws Con +11, Wis +8, Cha +15 (Advantage vs Magic)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Arcana +10, Deception +15, Intimidation +15, Perception +8, Persuasion +15, Stealth +12
Damage Resistances Necrotic, Psychic, Bludgeoning, Piercing, And Slashing From Nonmagical Weapons
Damage Immunities Fire, Poison
Condition immunities charmed, frightened, poisoned
Senses darkvision 120ft., passive Perception 18
Languages Abyssal, Common, Elven, Infernal, Telepathy 100ft
Challenge _____________________________________________________________________________________________
Shapechanger: If Whisper isn't in sun light or running water, it can use its action to Polymorph into a Tiny bat, a Medium cloud of mist, or back into its true form. While in bat form, the vampire can't speak, its walking speed is 5 feet, and it has a flying speed of 30 feet. Its Statistics, other than its size and speed, are unchanged. Anything she is wearing transforms with it, but nothing it is carrying does. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
While in mist form, the vampire can't take any actions, speak, or manipulate Objects. It is weightless, has a flying speed of 20 feet, can hover, and can enter a hostile creature's space and stop there. In addition, if air can pass through a space, the mist can do so without squeezing, and it can't pass through water. It has advantage on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution saving throws, and it is immune to all nonmagical damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.
Misty Escape: When it drops to 0 hit points outside its Resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of Falling Unconscious, provided that it isn't in sunlight or running water. If it can't transform, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its Resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its Resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then Paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its Resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point.
Regeneration: The vampire regains 20 hit points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sunlight or running water. If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn.
Spider Climb: The vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Vampire Weaknesses: The vampire has the following flaws:
Forbiddance. The vampire can't enter a residence without an invitation from one of the occupants.
Harmed by Running Water. The vampire takes 20 acid damage if it ends its turn in running water.
Stake to the Heart. If a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into the vampire's heart while the vampire is Incapacitated in its Resting place, the vampire is Paralyzed until the stake is removed.
Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks.
Devil’s Sight: Magical darkness doesn’t impede the devil’s darkvision.
Magic Resistance: The devil has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Spellcasting: Whisper is a 20th-level spellcaster. Her spellcasting ability is Charisma (save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Whisper knows the following spells:
Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, thaumaturgy, friends, prestidigitation
1st level (4 slots): burning hands, charm person, command, hellish rebuke
2nd level (4 slots): hold person, misty step, see invisibility, suggestion
3rd level (4 slots): counterspell, dispel magic, fireball, thunder step
4th level (4 slots): fire shield, wall of fire, shadow of moil
5th level (3 slots): dominate person, dream, synaptic static
6th level (3 slots): mass suggestion, mental prison
7th level (3 slots): finger of death, plane shift
8th level (2 slots): feeblemind, glibness
9th level (2 slots): psychic scream, meteor swarm
Innate Spellcasting: Whisper’s innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Whisper can innately cast the following Spells, requiring no material components:
At will: detect magic, detect thoughts, disguise self, charm monster
Legendary Resistance (4/Day): If Whisper fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.
Actions_________________________________________________________________________________________
Multiattack: Whisper makes two attacks, only one of which can be a kiss attack.
The Crimson Flame: Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 10ft., one targer. Hit: 13 (1d10+8) slashing damage plus 22 (5d8) fire damage.
The Kiss: Melee Weapon Attack: +12 to hit, reach 5 ft., one willing creature, or a creature that is Grappled by Whisper, Charmed, Incapacitated, or Restrained. Hit: 8 (1d6 + 5) piercing damage plus 10 (3d6) necrotic damage and 18 (5d6) psychic damage. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic and psychic damage taken, and Whisper regains hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a Long Rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain in this way and then buried in the ground rises the following night as a Vampire Spawn under Whisper’s control.
Summon Devil (1/day): The devil chooses what to summon and attempts a magical summoning. Whisper summons 2d4 barbed devils, 1d4 Erinyes or a horned devil with no chance of failure. A summoned devil appears in an unoccupied space within 60 feet of its summoner, acts as an ally of its summoner, and can’t summon other devils. It remains for 1 minute, until it or its summoner dies, or until its summoner dismisses it as an action.
Legendary Actions_____________________________________________________________________________________
Whisper can take 4 Legendary Actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and only at the end of another creature's turn. Spent legendary actions are regained at the start of each turn.
Move: Whisper moves up to her speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Cantrip: Whisper casts a cantrip.
Attack: Whisper makes an attack with the Crimson Flame.
Kiss (Costs 2 Actions): Whisper makes one kiss attack.
Spell (Costs 2 actions): Whisper casts a spell.
Equipment:
Whisper possesses a plethough of powerful magic items, of which the most notable is an exhalted Crimson Flame artifact. These make it so that:
The Crimson Flame:
When she deals fire damage, she can reroll 1’s and 2’s and ignore fire resistance. She is also immune to fire damage.
Ring of Mind Shielding:
While wearing this ring, she is immune to magic that allows other creatures to read her thoughts, determine whether she is lying, know her alignment, or know her creature type. Creatures can telepathically communicate with her only if she allos it.
Tunic of Protection:
While wearing this tunic, she has +2 to AC.
Calculating CR is impossible without knowing how many hit points the creature has.
Assuming 20d8 hit dice, as the creature you present is a 20th-level spell caster, it would have 170 hit points.
Adding effective hit points for legendary resistance 4/day (+30 each use) and regeneration (+3 per point of regeneration), and multiplying for multiple resistances/immunities at an expected CR of 17+ (x1.25) gives an effective hit point total of 438. Referencing the appropriate table shows that to be the CR 21 row.
The effective AC of 22 after the increase from magic resistance (+2) adjusts the above by 1 point for every 2 points over the listed AC on the same row (19, so in this case only +1), giving us a Defensive CR value of 22.
Then we go to working out the average damage per round. With a spellcasting creature that can be tricky, and it is further complicated with legendary actions. However, I've done a bit of work on figuring out the highest damage output I can see being possible (which is the damage value CR is meant to be based on). It appears that the creature could be most potentially devastating with the following configuration of attack options in each of the first 3 rounds:
That, adjusting the area effects to count as hitting twice, and then averaged across those rounds gives us an average damage value of 379, which is off the charts (both literally and figuratively). That sets the offensive CR on the CR 30 row so far.
Next we compare the save DC, as that's the more important factor than attack bonus in the above damage-dealing scheme, to what is listed on the table and find that since it is 23 it is right where it should be.
And finally, we average the offensive and defensive CR numbers from above to arrive at a CR of 26, which the book advises should be adjusted up or down if that feels necessary after play-testing.
Thank you. I was not looking forward to doing those calculations.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Also, I was thinking about giving her quite a bit more than 20d8 hit dice, mainly because she is also a powerful vampire (and vampires have 17d8 base hit dice). So, I was thinking more about 30d8 or something, which would put her at 255hp->435*1.25=543 (so CR 24). +1 for AC, we get to 25 defensive.