I'm finding that 5e RAW doesn't have much to say about the specifics of dragging, especially in the grappling department (perhaps mercifully in that case). By RAW,
"When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you." -PHB 195
I'm trying to work out how to handle situations when the grappler wants to move in weird environments, or when they want to move their target into a different adjacent space without moving themselves. A conservative ruling would seem to be that the grappler must move, and the target moves into the space vacated by the grappler. In this case, any attempt to reposition the target would be accomplished by a series of wonky movement and/or "shove aside" actions (DMG 272). In some cases, it would be impossible (such as a medium-sized character wanting to switch positions with a grappled target in a 5ft-wide hallway). This seems cumbersome and doesn't lend to a fun encounter.
Does anybody see anything wrong with the following house rule (replacing the "Moving a Grappled Creature" paragraph on PHB 195), or see a better option?
"Moving a Grappled Creature. When grappling, you can use your movement speed to move your target within your reach. Your target can occupy the same space as you or any other grappled target during any part of this movement, but you cannot end your movement with a grappled target occupying your space or the space of another grappled target."
Basically, the grappler would determine their own position and that of their targets, drawing from a common movement speed. This clarifies "dragging and carrying", and acts to restrict the movement of the grappler in much the same way as before. This would allow a character to do all sorts of repositioning moves with a grappled target without requiring extra rolls. My only concern is that as I've written it, a grappled character may be automatically subject to the effects of forced movement that would otherwise cost a character multiple attacks worth of shoving, and the associated rolls. That could potentially allow a grappler to throw another off a cliff (or hold them in a fire pit) without any rolls.
As a separate question, does anybody have a simple way to resolve forced movement (such as would be caused by the shove action) that moves a character into the space of another? By RAW, nothing forbids it. My instinct is to compare the Strength (Athletics) test of the attacker to the Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks of both the target and the collateral target, and potentially knock them both prone on a success. Any other ideas?
I think the easiest way to handle it is that moving either yourself, the grappled target, or both of you together takes 5ft of movement from your total (which has been halved), and that you may switch places as a normal move. So if you want to shift the target sideways around you, that just takes up movement points without moving yourself. As a final caveat, if you used your movement to throw the target off a cliff or similar hazard I would give them an Athletics/Acrobatics check chance to avoid falling and return to safe ground released from the grapple.
For the second part of the question, we're entering the old "pick up a goblin and use him as a club" territory. I'm of the opinion that it's best not to make standardised rules about situations like that. Time for the Player to describe what they are doing and then the DM make it work, fail or depend on a roll as you go along. Reward creativity or good tactics, or punish foolishness or repeated tricks as much or as little as your DM style dictates.
I think the easiest way to handle it is that moving either yourself, the grappled target, or both of you together takes 5ft of movement from your total (which has been halved), and that you may switch places as a normal move. So if you want to shift the target sideways around you, that just takes up movement points without moving yourself. As a final caveat, if you used your movement to throw the target off a cliff or similar hazard I would give them an Athletics/Acrobatics check chance to avoid falling and return to safe ground released from the grapple.
For the second part of the question, we're entering the old "pick up a goblin and use him as a club" territory. I'm of the opinion that it's best not to make standardised rules about situations like that. Time for the Player to describe what they are doing and then the DM make it work, fail or depend on a roll as you go along. Reward creativity or good tactics, or punish foolishness or repeated tricks as much or as little as your DM style dictates.
I like the 5ft switcheroo. It's definitely simpler than my rewrite. This opens up a small can of worms though. Do the RAW allow the grappler to move the target in any direction (push/pull/lateral)? Ie. can a grappler repeatedly push the target ahead of itself without using the shove rules (or any other sort of forced movement)? I could see this going either way. Basically, if (a) grappling normally allows pushing, then a target can be moved into a space that the grappler has not previously occupied (requiring no shove), and potentially(?) into a space that's occupied by another creature. If (b) grappling only allows pulling, allowing forced movement into a vacated space only, then the target could not be moved into a previously unoccupied space without another source of forced movement, such as a shove attack. In this case, your caveat would be solved, since a grappler would be required to break a grapple with a shove (or other forced movement) to place the target in a hazard, unless the grappler chose to enter that space themselves prior. The check to avoid being knocked into a pit would be the shove contest itself, or some other check afforded by whatever source of forced movement is used.
There are also intermediate cases to consider, in which the target may be moved such that its position relative to the grappler is unchanged.
This would be much easier to explain with a grid graphic... =D
As for the second bit, I'd normally avoid making it too easy to hit multiple enemies without a good reason, but I'm working on a zombie apocalypse campaign, and my players will inevitably be surrounded by massive hordes of grabby-bitey foes. Hopefully they'll have worked out that shoving is the most action-efficient way to break a grapple, and I want to be prepared for that.
Hi all,
I'm finding that 5e RAW doesn't have much to say about the specifics of dragging, especially in the grappling department (perhaps mercifully in that case). By RAW,
"When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you." -PHB 195
I'm trying to work out how to handle situations when the grappler wants to move in weird environments, or when they want to move their target into a different adjacent space without moving themselves. A conservative ruling would seem to be that the grappler must move, and the target moves into the space vacated by the grappler. In this case, any attempt to reposition the target would be accomplished by a series of wonky movement and/or "shove aside" actions (DMG 272). In some cases, it would be impossible (such as a medium-sized character wanting to switch positions with a grappled target in a 5ft-wide hallway). This seems cumbersome and doesn't lend to a fun encounter.
Does anybody see anything wrong with the following house rule (replacing the "Moving a Grappled Creature" paragraph on PHB 195), or see a better option?
"Moving a Grappled Creature. When grappling, you can use your movement speed to move your target within your reach. Your target can occupy the same space as you or any other grappled target during any part of this movement, but you cannot end your movement with a grappled target occupying your space or the space of another grappled target."
Basically, the grappler would determine their own position and that of their targets, drawing from a common movement speed. This clarifies "dragging and carrying", and acts to restrict the movement of the grappler in much the same way as before. This would allow a character to do all sorts of repositioning moves with a grappled target without requiring extra rolls. My only concern is that as I've written it, a grappled character may be automatically subject to the effects of forced movement that would otherwise cost a character multiple attacks worth of shoving, and the associated rolls. That could potentially allow a grappler to throw another off a cliff (or hold them in a fire pit) without any rolls.
As a separate question, does anybody have a simple way to resolve forced movement (such as would be caused by the shove action) that moves a character into the space of another? By RAW, nothing forbids it. My instinct is to compare the Strength (Athletics) test of the attacker to the Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks of both the target and the collateral target, and potentially knock them both prone on a success. Any other ideas?
Thanks for your input!
I think the easiest way to handle it is that moving either yourself, the grappled target, or both of you together takes 5ft of movement from your total (which has been halved), and that you may switch places as a normal move. So if you want to shift the target sideways around you, that just takes up movement points without moving yourself. As a final caveat, if you used your movement to throw the target off a cliff or similar hazard I would give them an Athletics/Acrobatics check chance to avoid falling and return to safe ground released from the grapple.
For the second part of the question, we're entering the old "pick up a goblin and use him as a club" territory. I'm of the opinion that it's best not to make standardised rules about situations like that. Time for the Player to describe what they are doing and then the DM make it work, fail or depend on a roll as you go along. Reward creativity or good tactics, or punish foolishness or repeated tricks as much or as little as your DM style dictates.
I like the 5ft switcheroo. It's definitely simpler than my rewrite. This opens up a small can of worms though. Do the RAW allow the grappler to move the target in any direction (push/pull/lateral)? Ie. can a grappler repeatedly push the target ahead of itself without using the shove rules (or any other sort of forced movement)? I could see this going either way. Basically, if (a) grappling normally allows pushing, then a target can be moved into a space that the grappler has not previously occupied (requiring no shove), and potentially(?) into a space that's occupied by another creature. If (b) grappling only allows pulling, allowing forced movement into a vacated space only, then the target could not be moved into a previously unoccupied space without another source of forced movement, such as a shove attack. In this case, your caveat would be solved, since a grappler would be required to break a grapple with a shove (or other forced movement) to place the target in a hazard, unless the grappler chose to enter that space themselves prior. The check to avoid being knocked into a pit would be the shove contest itself, or some other check afforded by whatever source of forced movement is used.
There are also intermediate cases to consider, in which the target may be moved such that its position relative to the grappler is unchanged.
This would be much easier to explain with a grid graphic... =D
As for the second bit, I'd normally avoid making it too easy to hit multiple enemies without a good reason, but I'm working on a zombie apocalypse campaign, and my players will inevitably be surrounded by massive hordes of grabby-bitey foes. Hopefully they'll have worked out that shoving is the most action-efficient way to break a grapple, and I want to be prepared for that.
Anyway, thanks for the input!
Edit: double post