Finesse When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the Attack and Damage Rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Alternative Properties
Finesse When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your Dexterity modifier for the Attack and one and a half your Dexterity to Damage Rolls. Strength can not be used with a Finesse weapon.
If this does not sound like a replacement to Finesse how about creating an new Property which require both Finesse and Light
Percision When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your Dexterity modifier for the Attack and twice your Dexterity to Damage Rolls. Strength can not be used with a Finesse weapon.
Finesse When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the Attack and Damage Rolls. If you used Dexterity you only add half your modifier(rounded down) to the Damage Roll.
This is how i would write it. There is no point in removing strength from finesse, with strength being a weaker stat anyways. And with the way i wrote it you could have 20 DEX, 16 STR and would deal more damage then a 20 DEX, 8 STR, since your +3 from STR is better then the +2 you would get from DEX under this new version
Why would Finesse - already the strongest weapon property in D&D and arguably game-breaking - require a boost? Finesse is already Super Mode for any class than can use it.
why is everyone saying that finesse is game breaking...
using dex in melee is no different that using strength to hit a target only in damage. In my suggestion you would have the following numbers on your roll
Dex 20/+4 Str 20/+4
Rapier 1d8+6 Damage Range 7-14
Longsword 1d8+4 damage range 5-12 Veristile 1d10+4 Damge Range 5-14
Greataxe 1d12+4 damage Range 5-16
Yes on the low end you will have an edge on damage by 2 points but on the high end you are now able to keep up with those big hitters out there. At this time using a Finesse weapon does not help with dealing damage no more than if you where a strength based character. It has always puzzeled me how assassians who are know killers who trademark weapons are daggers seem to be able to kill a target quickly in stories but in practice they are nowhere near able to kill a target with such ease. This just allows those dex based characters to get that big damage hit too even if they are using a smaller weapon. Now if someone know a way for a Finesse weapon to be as deadly as two handed weapon I am here to learn.
Dexterity is useful for way more things by way more classes than Strength, is the issue. Not only can it be used for rapiers (as good as any one-handed martial STR weapon) and shortswords/scimitars (damage output comparable to a greatsword if dual-wielded, though the higher action cost and second attack roll balances it somewhat), but it's good for most kinds of armor (14 or more DEX and half-plate is as good or better than any heavy armor short of full plate), initiative, a ton of saving throws (STR saving throws almost never come up), and much more useful skills than are tied to STR. From a pure crunch perspective, there's often very little reason for a Strength build at all. At least if all melee weapons required STR, or if finesse were weaker, there would be a clearer value for STR to at least "tough melee combatant" classes like Barbarians, Paladins, and classic sword/shield/armor Fighter builds.
(That said, I do think finesse weapons alleviate what would otherwise be some pretty punishing MAD on a lot of classes. I'm definitely for tinkering with it, but I'm not sure about a straight nerfing and I'm definitely against buffing it.)
why is everyone saying that finesse is game breaking...
Dexterity commands one of the game's Strong saves, it's used for one of the most common/useful skills in the game as well as two other common and useful skills, it governs your AC with light or medium armor (or unarmored), it governs your Initiative modifier, it governs your performance with almost all ranged weapons, and with a Finesse weapon Dexterity also grants melee damage equivalent to all but the most heavily invested of Strength-based melee builds. The existence of Finesse almost totally invalidates Strength as a combat stat. The only reason to be strong is because you want to grapple, or you want to be your team's walking meat crowbar to move heavy stuff. Which is fine, every party should have one Strong Guy, but the simple fact is that Finesse makes Dexterity a one-stop-shop Ultrastat for anyone looking to do everything at once in combat.
From a balance standpoint, Finesse should allow one to attack with Dexterity, but the damage roll should still be using Strength, in order to prevent Finesse from just outright displacing Strength. Alternatively, unpopular idea - Finesse should be a class feature baked into the rogue the same way Martial Arts is baked into the Monk rather than being a weapon property. That way other builds still have to concern themselves with Stronk somehow, and I say this as a devoted fan of Dex dingdongs and fighters. Finesse lets me get away with murder. Literally.
Honestly I house rule strength weapon users getting 1.5*STR Bonus to damage, use encumbrance and Cap acrobatics + at the lowest of your strength and dex Bonuses. Despite this People still prefer DEX builds it is that strong, it does not need any help. Its getting to the point where I'm considering letting STR saves be used against certain spells as well if someone can feed me a rational and are wearing heavy armour. Eg Ice storm, if its a rain of heavy bits of ice if someone's stood there in full plate and holds a shield up with enough strength it makes sense to me that they would be at least as effective as someone who's trying to sidestep the rain. I'd not allow it vs most energy effects but if its a physical impact I don't understand why its not a valid source of mitigation.
why is everyone saying that finesse is game breaking...
Because it literally is one of the strongest features in the game for sword users, and is one of the best saves as well, as many things require a dex save not only that but your proposition makes it infinitely stronger, so...yeah what you propose is broken
The best way to balance dex would be to remove it from initiative. Strength is already higher damage because you know... 2d6 > 1d8. Class features and all that change it of course. All that said, fighters and barbarians are the highest damage classes in the game because of GWM.
It has always puzzeled me how assassians who are know killers who trademark weapons are daggers seem to be able to kill a target quickly in stories but in practice they are nowhere near able to kill a target with such ease.
That's what 'sneak attack' and 'assassinate' are for. Remember in stories you have warriors able to kill quickly with a single axe blow etc as well. In DND the nature of HP (dare I say bloat) is what prevents it.
However be careful what you wish for as if you can one shot them, they can one shot you.
The Finesse property is fine as it is. I don't think its over or under powered.
I heavily favor Dex based sword and board characters, almost all of whom take the Duelist Fighting Style which effectively makes a Rapier slightly better than a 1d10 weapon. On average there's only 2-3 point of damage separating it from a 1d12/2d6 two-handed weapons that the Strength based characters have going for them. Considering Dex based characters get the bonus to a much better saving throw, the bonus to their Initiative, more skills supported, and easier access to high AC (even if they get plate early half plate with a shield still outclasses them), the better options for ranged weapons, etc... 2-3 points of damage hardly seems unreasonable.
Great Weapon Master is where the issue comes in. I've never seen a character that uses two-handed weapons that doesn't have this as one of their first 2 feats. Suddenly the 2-3 point difference goes to 12-13 per attack, and with multi attacking it can get much much higher. A level 20 fighter could do 40 more points of damage with this feat alone.
I don't know if all the benefits that Dex based characters get and the penalty that GWM imposes balance out that radical a difference in damage outputs. Even if it doesn't though changing the Finesse property doesn't seem like the right solution to me.
It has always puzzeled me how assassians who are know killers who trademark weapons are daggers seem to be able to kill a target quickly in stories but in practice they are nowhere near able to kill a target with such ease.
That's what 'sneak attack' and 'assassinate' are for. Remember in stories you have warriors able to kill quickly with a single axe blow etc as well. In DND the nature of HP (dare I say bloat) is what prevents it.
However be careful what you wish for as if you can one shot them, they can one shot you.
theres also the fact that most characters their one shotting in stories, would probably fall within the cr 3 or below in stories, which can geniunely be one shot by a relevant rogue, or the assassin monster statblock
alot arent even cr 3, and are just using the noble or villager statblock, 4-9 hp on those
Improvised weapons rules allow all natural weapons to be treated like a finesse weapon.
so you cannot get rid of the strength from finesse
All natural weapons use strength modifiers so if treated as finesse slashing or piercing weapons You the must use strength to sneak attack
Many dm's forget to clarify what counts as a improvised weapon
but REMEMBER YOU ARE PROFICIENT WITH ALL NATURAL WEAPONS.
DHAMPIRE con bite might not count as finesse unless a class feature allows it like monk weapons maybe as a Dart Bite improvised weapon.
natural weapons do not have the finesse property, and are their own category of weapon, if you are the creature they are attached to, they are not an improvised weapon
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
dont need to, as natural weapons are their own category, so someones claws would not count as a shortsword, thats their claws
even under improvised weapons thatd still be a claw, as thats the closest actual weapon
Finesse is fine as is. They should just limit the damage dice of weapons with that property to d6s. If you invest in Strength, then you can get the d8s, d10s, d12s and the 2d6s. Otherwise, d6 or worse. The idea being that Dex should be for archers as a secondary weapon and for sneaks. I'll then steal Yurei's idea and have the Rogue be able to use certain weapons with higher damage using their Dex as a class feature.
That just leaves Intelligence needing to be buffed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Finesse is fine as is. They should just limit the damage dice of weapons with that property to d6s. If you invest in Strength, then you can get the d8s, d10s, d12s and the 2d6s. Otherwise, d6 or worse. The idea being that Dex should be for archers as a secondary weapon and for sneaks. I'll then steal Yurei's idea and have the Rogue be able to use certain weapons with higher damage using their Dex as a class feature.
That just leaves Intelligence needing to be buffed.
I agree that dex is fine. Strength let's you wear better armor and wield stronger weapons. Dex gives you a better saving throw, dex bonus to AC (still not as good as the best armors although it's free), and bonus to initiative. Tradeoffs.
Honestly I think wisdom is only better because of how prevalent perception checks are. Have people roll more investigation checks and that'd balance out. Wisdom is still the more common saving throw though. Maybe change some to make intelligence more important.
WRT Wis saves, at least on low to mid tiers games (where most action occurs), I find that the Dex is much more common (although Wis have higher consequences).
However, my view is that Wis is useful on a party level, but once you have a couple of high Wis characters, that advantage goes away. You need a few scouts and explorers to spot traps and stuff, but after that other characters become redundant. Dex is more useful on an an individual level, since it helps with more stuff for the individual - the party only benefits indirectly. Which one is more important depends on the make up of the party and whether they need another perceptive/insightful character.
As for intelligence, in part I think they should move insight to intelligence. That would help make intelligence more useful. I have other thoughts, but the thread is about Dex and our discussion isn't particularly on topic for that, let alone with Int!
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Suggestion:
Oringal Properties
Finesse
When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the Attack and Damage Rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Alternative Properties
Finesse
When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your Dexterity modifier for the Attack and one and a half your Dexterity to Damage Rolls. Strength can not be used with a Finesse weapon.
If this does not sound like a replacement to Finesse how about creating an new Property which require both Finesse and Light
Percision
When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your Dexterity modifier for the Attack and twice your Dexterity to Damage Rolls. Strength can not be used with a Finesse weapon.
Umm, do you mean Dexterity score or mod on the damage? This is broken either way, just trying to gauge how much.
This is how i would write it. There is no point in removing strength from finesse, with strength being a weaker stat anyways. And with the way i wrote it you could have 20 DEX, 16 STR and would deal more damage then a 20 DEX, 8 STR, since your +3 from STR is better then the +2 you would get from DEX under this new version
Why would Finesse - already the strongest weapon property in D&D and arguably game-breaking - require a boost? Finesse is already Super Mode for any class than can use it.
Please do not contact or message me.
why is everyone saying that finesse is game breaking...
using dex in melee is no different that using strength to hit a target only in damage. In my suggestion you would have the following numbers on your roll
Dex 20/+4 Str 20/+4
Rapier 1d8+6 Damage Range 7-14
Longsword 1d8+4 damage range 5-12 Veristile 1d10+4 Damge Range 5-14
Greataxe 1d12+4 damage Range 5-16
Yes on the low end you will have an edge on damage by 2 points but on the high end you are now able to keep up with those big hitters out there. At this time using a Finesse weapon does not help with dealing damage no more than if you where a strength based character. It has always puzzeled me how assassians who are know killers who trademark weapons are daggers seem to be able to kill a target quickly in stories but in practice they are nowhere near able to kill a target with such ease. This just allows those dex based characters to get that big damage hit too even if they are using a smaller weapon. Now if someone know a way for a Finesse weapon to be as deadly as two handed weapon I am here to learn.
Dexterity is useful for way more things by way more classes than Strength, is the issue. Not only can it be used for rapiers (as good as any one-handed martial STR weapon) and shortswords/scimitars (damage output comparable to a greatsword if dual-wielded, though the higher action cost and second attack roll balances it somewhat), but it's good for most kinds of armor (14 or more DEX and half-plate is as good or better than any heavy armor short of full plate), initiative, a ton of saving throws (STR saving throws almost never come up), and much more useful skills than are tied to STR. From a pure crunch perspective, there's often very little reason for a Strength build at all. At least if all melee weapons required STR, or if finesse were weaker, there would be a clearer value for STR to at least "tough melee combatant" classes like Barbarians, Paladins, and classic sword/shield/armor Fighter builds.
(That said, I do think finesse weapons alleviate what would otherwise be some pretty punishing MAD on a lot of classes. I'm definitely for tinkering with it, but I'm not sure about a straight nerfing and I'm definitely against buffing it.)
Medium humanoid (human), lawful neutral
Dexterity commands one of the game's Strong saves, it's used for one of the most common/useful skills in the game as well as two other common and useful skills, it governs your AC with light or medium armor (or unarmored), it governs your Initiative modifier, it governs your performance with almost all ranged weapons, and with a Finesse weapon Dexterity also grants melee damage equivalent to all but the most heavily invested of Strength-based melee builds. The existence of Finesse almost totally invalidates Strength as a combat stat. The only reason to be strong is because you want to grapple, or you want to be your team's walking meat crowbar to move heavy stuff. Which is fine, every party should have one Strong Guy, but the simple fact is that Finesse makes Dexterity a one-stop-shop Ultrastat for anyone looking to do everything at once in combat.
From a balance standpoint, Finesse should allow one to attack with Dexterity, but the damage roll should still be using Strength, in order to prevent Finesse from just outright displacing Strength. Alternatively, unpopular idea - Finesse should be a class feature baked into the rogue the same way Martial Arts is baked into the Monk rather than being a weapon property. That way other builds still have to concern themselves with Stronk somehow, and I say this as a devoted fan of Dex dingdongs and fighters. Finesse lets me get away with murder. Literally.
Please do not contact or message me.
Honestly I house rule strength weapon users getting 1.5*STR Bonus to damage, use encumbrance and Cap acrobatics + at the lowest of your strength and dex Bonuses. Despite this People still prefer DEX builds it is that strong, it does not need any help. Its getting to the point where I'm considering letting STR saves be used against certain spells as well if someone can feed me a rational and are wearing heavy armour. Eg Ice storm, if its a rain of heavy bits of ice if someone's stood there in full plate and holds a shield up with enough strength it makes sense to me that they would be at least as effective as someone who's trying to sidestep the rain. I'd not allow it vs most energy effects but if its a physical impact I don't understand why its not a valid source of mitigation.
Because it literally is one of the strongest features in the game for sword users, and is one of the best saves as well, as many things require a dex save
not only that but your proposition makes it infinitely stronger, so...yeah what you propose is broken
Why should finesse weapons be as deadly as a two-handed weapon? What would be the point of two-handed weapons then?
The best way to balance dex would be to remove it from initiative. Strength is already higher damage because you know... 2d6 > 1d8. Class features and all that change it of course. All that said, fighters and barbarians are the highest damage classes in the game because of GWM.
That's what 'sneak attack' and 'assassinate' are for. Remember in stories you have warriors able to kill quickly with a single axe blow etc as well. In DND the nature of HP (dare I say bloat) is what prevents it.
However be careful what you wish for as if you can one shot them, they can one shot you.
The Finesse property is fine as it is. I don't think its over or under powered.
I heavily favor Dex based sword and board characters, almost all of whom take the Duelist Fighting Style which effectively makes a Rapier slightly better than a 1d10 weapon. On average there's only 2-3 point of damage separating it from a 1d12/2d6 two-handed weapons that the Strength based characters have going for them. Considering Dex based characters get the bonus to a much better saving throw, the bonus to their Initiative, more skills supported, and easier access to high AC (even if they get plate early half plate with a shield still outclasses them), the better options for ranged weapons, etc... 2-3 points of damage hardly seems unreasonable.
Great Weapon Master is where the issue comes in. I've never seen a character that uses two-handed weapons that doesn't have this as one of their first 2 feats. Suddenly the 2-3 point difference goes to 12-13 per attack, and with multi attacking it can get much much higher. A level 20 fighter could do 40 more points of damage with this feat alone.
I don't know if all the benefits that Dex based characters get and the penalty that GWM imposes balance out that radical a difference in damage outputs. Even if it doesn't though changing the Finesse property doesn't seem like the right solution to me.
theres also the fact that most characters their one shotting in stories, would probably fall within the cr 3 or below in stories, which can geniunely be one shot by a relevant rogue, or the assassin monster statblock
alot arent even cr 3, and are just using the noble or villager statblock, 4-9 hp on those
natural weapons do not have the finesse property, and are their own category of weapon, if you are the creature they are attached to, they are not an improvised weapon
dont need to, as natural weapons are their own category, so someones claws would not count as a shortsword, thats their claws
even under improvised weapons thatd still be a claw, as thats the closest actual weapon
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but:
Finesse is fine as is. They should just limit the damage dice of weapons with that property to d6s. If you invest in Strength, then you can get the d8s, d10s, d12s and the 2d6s. Otherwise, d6 or worse. The idea being that Dex should be for archers as a secondary weapon and for sneaks. I'll then steal Yurei's idea and have the Rogue be able to use certain weapons with higher damage using their Dex as a class feature.
That just leaves Intelligence needing to be buffed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree that dex is fine. Strength let's you wear better armor and wield stronger weapons. Dex gives you a better saving throw, dex bonus to AC (still not as good as the best armors although it's free), and bonus to initiative. Tradeoffs.
Honestly I think wisdom is only better because of how prevalent perception checks are. Have people roll more investigation checks and that'd balance out. Wisdom is still the more common saving throw though. Maybe change some to make intelligence more important.
WRT Wis saves, at least on low to mid tiers games (where most action occurs), I find that the Dex is much more common (although Wis have higher consequences).
However, my view is that Wis is useful on a party level, but once you have a couple of high Wis characters, that advantage goes away. You need a few scouts and explorers to spot traps and stuff, but after that other characters become redundant. Dex is more useful on an an individual level, since it helps with more stuff for the individual - the party only benefits indirectly. Which one is more important depends on the make up of the party and whether they need another perceptive/insightful character.
As for intelligence, in part I think they should move insight to intelligence. That would help make intelligence more useful. I have other thoughts, but the thread is about Dex and our discussion isn't particularly on topic for that, let alone with Int!
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.