For reference: Flurry of Blows: PHB 5 (24) You can expend 1 Focus Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action. Unarmed Strike:PHB 5 (24) Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
I am a DM for a one-shot where one of my characters is a monk. He picked up a short sword and I don't think that he should be able to use flurry of blows when wielding anything larger than a dagger. The reason for this is that they are unarmed strikes, which do not have to be made with your hands, but that would mean an elbow, knee, kick, or head would have to be used. None of these options really flow well if you are visualizing it.
Let me explain: (caveat, I am a beginner in martial arts only a few belts into my chosen discipline which is similar to MMA) Power: In order for a character to deal damage, a considerable amount of force would have to be applied. Remember that depleting a unit's HP is what knocks them unconscious. Someone could probably punch you 100 times with the strength of a 10-year-old and you would remain conscious. In the 2000 Don Frye vs. Yoshihoro Takayama MMA fight, 137 blows were recorded where these huge fighters were primarily pummeling each other in the face unchecked (you should watch the video). This is important because power is not free, it requires coordination between your entire body. With fist attacks, it is feasible to chain attacks quickly as crosses and hooks rotationally charge the opposite side. For example, your stance pre-loads your right side, you attack with right cross, now your body is twisted to the left so you can follow up with a left hook. Let's look at how each of the other unarmed strikes fare in this regard. Kick: Power comes from rotation. Kicks can certainly be quick, and the rotational momentum can be carried into an additional attack; however, successive kicks with power simply cannot be done without placing the attacking leg back on the ground. The quickest way would be to follow up a rear leg kick by placing your rear leg in the front after it connects so you are in reversed stance and carrying that rotational momentum into a back kick. Issue there would be that requires movement and making a visually impaired back kick. I played around with other combos, but this is the closest I have gotten to making two quick kicks with enough force to deal damage. Elbow: Power comes from rotation or body weight. Elbow attacks absolutely require setup from the previous attack and getting in very close. Best way would be to execute a dash (not D&D dash, martial arts dash where you launch yourself forward with your rear leg) towards the enemy and do an outward hook with your elbow or do a spinning elbow attack by pivoting off your lead foot. Knee: Power comes from body weight some from rotation. Also require setup from previous attack and close range, but with the added complication of using your arms to either balance yourself or grab the target. Head: I honestly do not see any reason to even consider this one. Not something that can be done quickly when you are starting 4 feet from the target. You would practically have to launch yourself at the target. Fists: Power can come from either body weight or rotation or pretty much any combination. Because the power source for your fists is so versatile and does not require sacrificing stability, not only can they be thrown in quick succession, but they can still have power behind them.
And do not forget YOU ARE HOLDING A SWORD. You have to do all of this without stabbing yourself and with a 2lb weight centered a foot from your hand. I can see this being done with a quarterstaff as it can actually help balance (think Sun Wukong style, both with redistributing weight and using as a third leg), but not any weapon where the center of mass extends several inches beyond the grip.
I offered the solution that there would be a -2 debuff to Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strikes if executed while holding a short sword, but my players argued fervently. The only player who also DMs does agree with me though.
The bottom line for me on this topic is that I like to visualize what is going on in the game and immerse the group in the world. Using a long sword with Flurry of Blows simply interrupts the scene.
Please comment your feelings on this topic and fellow DMs, do you just ignore this, or do you have another solution?
Honestly, to me this sounds really overly pedantic to me. I would never do anything like this while DMing, and I would not want to play with a DM who did. The rules of D&D are not intended to perfectly (or even closely) model real-world physics or real-world fighting styles, and stuff like this seems to serve little purpose other than sucking the fun out of the game.
The Rules As Written do not place any restrictions on what you can be holding when you make an unarmed strike. That's the way I play it.
As wagnarokkr said, the rules support using kicks or your head, for example, to make a melee attack while wielding a weapon (or any object, in reality).
For monks, these kinds of combos are in their nature, IMO.
Unarmed Strike Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
A couple of interesting threads related to the topic:
The bottom line for me on this topic is that I like to visualize what is going on in the game and immerse the group in the world. Using a long sword with Flurry of Blows simply interrupts the scene.
Please comment your feelings on this topic and fellow DMs, do you just ignore this, or do you have another solution?
My feeling on the topic is that any character should be able to make Unarmed Strike regardless wether their hands aren't free but wielding or holding anything. If Monk’s Focus was meant to be limited based on object wielded, it would say so.
Monk does it best! They channel uncanny speed and strength into their attacks, with or without the use of weapons.
Limiting it this way is unecessary punishment, and more so if it wasn't disclosed before game play.
This is pretty clearly a nerf from the RAW because you as the DM don't feel it's realistic. If it's in the interest of realism do you allow magic at your table or a halfling wielding a quarterstaff to knock a tarrasque prone using topple? I'd also ask if you told the player about this ruling before they created the monk or did you surprise them with it? Fantasy games have unrealistic epic combats it's okay to play into the fantasy.
Anytime you do research into any of the various kinds of melee fighting in the game, they sort of break down when compared to real life. That's because this is a game involving fantasy elements. I know it's tempting to do this to make sense of it in your brain, but you shouldn't be doing it and it will make it unfun for the player that you arbitrarily decide to make weaker. I'm not saying anything new here compared to the above posters, but I want to echo that it's important that you, as a new DM, don't hand out unwarranted penalties in the interest of 'realism' unless everybody explicitly agrees beforehand.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Anytime you do research into any of the various kinds of melee fighting in the game, they sort of break down when compared to real life.
This. D&D combat is highly abstracted. The game is also uninterested in realism. In six seconds, a high-level fighter with the right set of abilities can move 30 feet, attacking ten different people in the process.
Compared to that, doing some martial arts while holding a sword is no big deal. Apply the rules of cinema. A spinning windmill kick may be unrealistic, but so what?
(Also, the character may have options that humans don't. My tiefling monk does a lot of tail strikes and horn blows.)
I offered the solution that there would be a -2 debuff to Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strikes if executed while holding a short sword, but my players argued fervently. The only player who also DMs does agree with me though.
Hell no. That's a "solution" searching for a problem that doesn't exist
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Honestly the entire monk class is highly unrealistic. Ask any martial arts expert and they will tell you that it is better to wield a weapon than to be empty-handed.
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
i feel like there's plenty of ways to choreograph how a flurry of blows can occur after an attack with a short sword with the simplest being punching someone with the hand holding the sword
It’s your table, but if your player is arguing it’s a telltale sign that your belief is not in the spirit of the game. Your player is already not going to have fun, because as RAW are being changed because of your opinion (which your totally can have) but when you’re players are challenging RAW, you may want to rethink your opinion to benefit the real intent of having fun.
I play a monk and I would walk away from your table if you enforced this homebrew rule. I push the limits of monks abilities that our table discuss, some allowed due to RAI and some is a stretch ( especially when dealing with ranged attacks).
My advice to you, for whatever it’s worth, if you’re ruling as RAW and RAI don’t homebrew rules because you don’t agree with the designers game mechanics. You don’t have to agree with it, but should accept it. Like other have said, DND doesn’t trend on real life mechanics (because I can’t mutter some incantation and turn invisible) but with Monk abilities (unarmed strikes- I have seen Bruce Lee hold chucks, and deliver well timed round house kicks) holding something in one hand doesn’t prevent you from using other body parts.
Lastly it’s your table, so you have final say, but without players what table do you have?
This thread is so funny because it is just so many people on one guy. Also monks are somewhat supernatural, it is in their nature to deal powerful blows from each of their limbs. Even without using their right hand monks would still have full force punches in almost any system within the DnD official adventures. And if physics is bothering you so much why don't you go do something about the 10ft fall damage rule, survivable terminal velocity, or the literal black magic.
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
The description of Unarmed Strike specifically says you dont need to use your hand to do it. Even if you were dual wielding, you could still make an Unarmed Strike has a headbutt, kick, elbow, knee, etc.
Likewise...
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
Even if that wasn't the case, the rules for attack actions say you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of the attack action. So even if you were using a two-handed weapon, and all of your limbs except your arms were bound and unusable. You'd still be able to stow your weapon prior to the unarmed strike to make it with your fist if you chose to.
my buddy pal homeslice, people can travel to other planes. let the monk do a Hurricane Kick while holding a sword
if it’s imperative that you must describe the monk’s FoB as fist-only, say that they throw the weapon/s up in the air to do the FoB before doing a sick catch.
For reference:
Flurry of Blows: PHB 5 (24)
You can expend 1 Focus Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
Unarmed Strike: PHB 5 (24)
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
I am a DM for a one-shot where one of my characters is a monk. He picked up a short sword and I don't think that he should be able to use flurry of blows when wielding anything larger than a dagger. The reason for this is that they are unarmed strikes, which do not have to be made with your hands, but that would mean an elbow, knee, kick, or head would have to be used. None of these options really flow well if you are visualizing it.
Let me explain: (caveat, I am a beginner in martial arts only a few belts into my chosen discipline which is similar to MMA)
Power: In order for a character to deal damage, a considerable amount of force would have to be applied. Remember that depleting a unit's HP is what knocks them unconscious. Someone could probably punch you 100 times with the strength of a 10-year-old and you would remain conscious. In the 2000 Don Frye vs. Yoshihoro Takayama MMA fight, 137 blows were recorded where these huge fighters were primarily pummeling each other in the face unchecked (you should watch the video).
This is important because power is not free, it requires coordination between your entire body. With fist attacks, it is feasible to chain attacks quickly as crosses and hooks rotationally charge the opposite side. For example, your stance pre-loads your right side, you attack with right cross, now your body is twisted to the left so you can follow up with a left hook. Let's look at how each of the other unarmed strikes fare in this regard.
Kick: Power comes from rotation. Kicks can certainly be quick, and the rotational momentum can be carried into an additional attack; however, successive kicks with power simply cannot be done without placing the attacking leg back on the ground. The quickest way would be to follow up a rear leg kick by placing your rear leg in the front after it connects so you are in reversed stance and carrying that rotational momentum into a back kick. Issue there would be that requires movement and making a visually impaired back kick. I played around with other combos, but this is the closest I have gotten to making two quick kicks with enough force to deal damage.
Elbow: Power comes from rotation or body weight. Elbow attacks absolutely require setup from the previous attack and getting in very close. Best way would be to execute a dash (not D&D dash, martial arts dash where you launch yourself forward with your rear leg) towards the enemy and do an outward hook with your elbow or do a spinning elbow attack by pivoting off your lead foot.
Knee: Power comes from body weight some from rotation. Also require setup from previous attack and close range, but with the added complication of using your arms to either balance yourself or grab the target.
Head: I honestly do not see any reason to even consider this one. Not something that can be done quickly when you are starting 4 feet from the target. You would practically have to launch yourself at the target.
Fists: Power can come from either body weight or rotation or pretty much any combination. Because the power source for your fists is so versatile and does not require sacrificing stability, not only can they be thrown in quick succession, but they can still have power behind them.
And do not forget YOU ARE HOLDING A SWORD. You have to do all of this without stabbing yourself and with a 2lb weight centered a foot from your hand. I can see this being done with a quarterstaff as it can actually help balance (think Sun Wukong style, both with redistributing weight and using as a third leg), but not any weapon where the center of mass extends several inches beyond the grip.
I offered the solution that there would be a -2 debuff to Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strikes if executed while holding a short sword, but my players argued fervently. The only player who also DMs does agree with me though.
The bottom line for me on this topic is that I like to visualize what is going on in the game and immerse the group in the world. Using a long sword with Flurry of Blows simply interrupts the scene.
Please comment your feelings on this topic and fellow DMs, do you just ignore this, or do you have another solution?
A shortsword is a one handed weapon. The player could punch twice with one hand or punch and kick.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Aren't monks supernatural though?
Honestly, to me this sounds really overly pedantic to me. I would never do anything like this while DMing, and I would not want to play with a DM who did. The rules of D&D are not intended to perfectly (or even closely) model real-world physics or real-world fighting styles, and stuff like this seems to serve little purpose other than sucking the fun out of the game.
The Rules As Written do not place any restrictions on what you can be holding when you make an unarmed strike. That's the way I play it.
pronouns: he/she/they
As wagnarokkr said, the rules support using kicks or your head, for example, to make a melee attack while wielding a weapon (or any object, in reality).
For monks, these kinds of combos are in their nature, IMO.
A couple of interesting threads related to the topic:
EDIT: for clarity.
My feeling on the topic is that any character should be able to make Unarmed Strike regardless wether their hands aren't free but wielding or holding anything. If Monk’s Focus was meant to be limited based on object wielded, it would say so.
Monk does it best! They channel uncanny speed and strength into their attacks, with or without the use of weapons.
Limiting it this way is unecessary punishment, and more so if it wasn't disclosed before game play.
This is pretty clearly a nerf from the RAW because you as the DM don't feel it's realistic. If it's in the interest of realism do you allow magic at your table or a halfling wielding a quarterstaff to knock a tarrasque prone using topple? I'd also ask if you told the player about this ruling before they created the monk or did you surprise them with it? Fantasy games have unrealistic epic combats it's okay to play into the fantasy.
Anytime you do research into any of the various kinds of melee fighting in the game, they sort of break down when compared to real life. That's because this is a game involving fantasy elements. I know it's tempting to do this to make sense of it in your brain, but you shouldn't be doing it and it will make it unfun for the player that you arbitrarily decide to make weaker. I'm not saying anything new here compared to the above posters, but I want to echo that it's important that you, as a new DM, don't hand out unwarranted penalties in the interest of 'realism' unless everybody explicitly agrees beforehand.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
This. D&D combat is highly abstracted. The game is also uninterested in realism. In six seconds, a high-level fighter with the right set of abilities can move 30 feet, attacking ten different people in the process.
Compared to that, doing some martial arts while holding a sword is no big deal. Apply the rules of cinema. A spinning windmill kick may be unrealistic, but so what?
(Also, the character may have options that humans don't. My tiefling monk does a lot of tail strikes and horn blows.)
I've never seen a martial arts movie in my life where anyone had trouble mixing in kicks and strikes with their swordwork
Hell no. That's a "solution" searching for a problem that doesn't exist
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Honestly the entire monk class is highly unrealistic. Ask any martial arts expert and they will tell you that it is better to wield a weapon than to be empty-handed.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
i feel like there's plenty of ways to choreograph how a flurry of blows can occur after an attack with a short sword with the simplest being punching someone with the hand holding the sword
It’s your table, but if your player is arguing it’s a telltale sign that your belief is not in the spirit of the game. Your player is already not going to have fun, because as RAW are being changed because of your opinion (which your totally can have) but when you’re players are challenging RAW, you may want to rethink your opinion to benefit the real intent of having fun.
I play a monk and I would walk away from your table if you enforced this homebrew rule. I push the limits of monks abilities that our table discuss, some allowed due to RAI and some is a stretch ( especially when dealing with ranged attacks).
My advice to you, for whatever it’s worth, if you’re ruling as RAW and RAI don’t homebrew rules because you don’t agree with the designers game mechanics. You don’t have to agree with it, but should accept it.
Like other have said, DND doesn’t trend on real life mechanics (because I can’t mutter some incantation and turn invisible) but with Monk abilities (unarmed strikes- I have seen Bruce Lee hold chucks, and deliver well timed round house kicks) holding something in one hand doesn’t prevent you from using other body parts.
Lastly it’s your table, so you have final say, but without players what table do you have?
This thread is so funny because it is just so many people on one guy. Also monks are somewhat supernatural, it is in their nature to deal powerful blows from each of their limbs. Even without using their right hand monks would still have full force punches in almost any system within the DnD official adventures. And if physics is bothering you so much why don't you go do something about the 10ft fall damage rule, survivable terminal velocity, or the literal black magic.
edit: missed a period
Just a goober doing my own work when I want to. I like the idea of not just high fantasy dnd.
You can reach me over discord as well, Handle is royalsupsi as well
I am open to work on joint homebrew projects, just DM me.
All my projects so far are in the extended signiture
Extended Sig
The description of Unarmed Strike specifically says you dont need to use your hand to do it. Even if you were dual wielding, you could still make an Unarmed Strike has a headbutt, kick, elbow, knee, etc.
Likewise...
Even if that wasn't the case, the rules for attack actions say you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of the attack action. So even if you were using a two-handed weapon, and all of your limbs except your arms were bound and unusable. You'd still be able to stow your weapon prior to the unarmed strike to make it with your fist if you chose to.
This isn't a realistic combat simulator. Play the game, do not penalize the player for making use of completely valid options.
my buddy pal homeslice, people can travel to other planes. let the monk do a Hurricane Kick while holding a sword
if it’s imperative that you must describe the monk’s FoB as fist-only, say that they throw the weapon/s up in the air to do the FoB before doing a sick catch.
Or just drop the weapon before doing the attacks
Just a goober doing my own work when I want to. I like the idea of not just high fantasy dnd.
You can reach me over discord as well, Handle is royalsupsi as well
I am open to work on joint homebrew projects, just DM me.
All my projects so far are in the extended signiture
Extended Sig