Player Context: RPing for long time. MOST experience in 3.5 and GURPS. VERY new to 5e.
Campaign Context: Curse of Strahd adventure
Resource Context: GM has mandated that we are only using CORE books. But at the same time, he does like to encourage people to have fun with their characters...
Semi-Spoiler Free Please: I will minor spoil some limited stuff my party has encountered in the CoS campaign. If you have not played and wish to, you might stop reading now. I feel the nature of the campaign is *very relevant* to this thread, but please don't spoil what's coming to us beyond what I mention; I want to be surprised! Thanks!
Player Desire: "I want to be a knight riding a gold dragon."
PC: 5th level Tiefling [Oath fo Vengeance] Paladin [of Bahamut] who HAS MOUNTED COMBATANT FEAT
Proposal: A) design a ton of intermediate steps to 'upgrade/convert' the base Find Steed warhorse into a [tweaked: Large] gold dragon wyrmling B) have the paladin sacrifice some class features to effectively get a superior Steed C) evaluate how much lots class features of the paladin justify how many steps down the path for the mount to be a 'better' wyrmling
A) Project: DRAGON There are a few phases to the conversion of warhorse to [Large] wyrmling: Phase 0) BASELINE (1 step) = 'no change' = you have the Find Steed Warhorse Phase 1) Morphology of a Dragon (3 steps) = [mostly] non-game mechanic, cosmetic changes (aesthestic/cosmetic appearance, attack: hooves --> bite, damage type: bludgeoning -> piercing) Phase 2) Weak to Parity (3 steps) = reduce all the Steed's stats to the lower of the Warhorse or the Wyrmling (lower WIS, lower land speed, lower attack damage dice, lose Trampling Charge) Phase 3) Baseline to gold dragon 'species (3 steps) = give a few minor non-numeric abilities gold dragons have (alignment shift, Immune to Fire, Amphibious) Phase 4) Progress to [Large] Wyrmling (65 steps) = linearly increment 1 single non-formulaically derived single stat at a time per step until reach [Large] Wyrmling (AC, HD, fly speed, swim speed, Abilities, saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, blindsight/darkvision, breath weapon stat recharge/range/damage)
B) Custom Paladin Class Features Changes: - LOSE Divine Sense - LOSE Spellcasting (all) - GAIN some new unique ability which is effectively mimicing a reduced scope Find Steed: "Spirit of the Dragon: Once/day, can cast Find Steed as an innate ability; it can ONLY summon your dragon steed. Otherwise acts like Find Steed, but can't share spells." -LOSE Divine Smite (inferred by loss of spellcasting anyway...) -LOSE Channel Divinity (all) -ALTER Lay on Hands: accessibility --> restrict to self and dragon-only
Best Stab at Summary of Impact of Changes: -the spellcasting loss and smite hits hardest I think for a paladin -- under the right circumstances vs. undead, which is basically all we've fought so far, there is a TON of radiant damage I could theoretically mete out in a turn. W/ Divine Simte and a buff spell, I could deal +16d8+4d4 radiant (average ~82), and then factor that Advantaged attacks double chances of getting a crit hit. Losing spellcasting removes ALL of the above noted radiant damage. The ability to do a bunch of that damage could ALSO get cloned on the Find Steed Warhorse too. He could add a MINOR amount more of radiant damage over time to that... -worth noting the context that we've already encountered vampires...and I seem to be basically the only source of radiant damage for the party currently... -for a BBEG, the loss of Channel Divinity could also be significant -The party has extremely limited healing powers; the restriction on Lay on Hands could be signficant. -Divine Sense can be circumstantially nice, but honestly, no huge loss.
C) Evaluate Equivalence
Approach: treat paladin w/ full powers+Warhorse = paladin w/ changed&lost powers+dragon --> what is the efficacy of them as a combined unit. If paladin loses tricks and mount gains some, how does that affect the unit? Damage Output / Damage Absorption / Mobility / Utility
I'm going to make a rough formula: paladin w/ full powers+Warhorse(OFFENSE * DEFENSE * MOBILITY * UTILITY) = paladin w/ changed&lost powers+dragon AT STEP X(OFFENSE * DEFENSE * MOBILITY * UTILITY)
Utility The more and more I thought about it, the only thing I can think of is the ability to fly. I dont' mean in combat or at any particular speed. There is literally just a class of problems that can be solved by "we can just fly up there".Some considerations -5th level wizards can cast Fly anyways (and we have several wizards) -the mists seem to limit distance from party so this gets less useful outdoors -the dragon can't exactly carry a tank; he's not that strong! -- I can't just go carry the whole party... -we are inside/underground a lot -Amphibious, highly inferior skills, vision -- nothing else even seemed remotely relevant to attempt to consider
Score Method: -if fly speed = 0 --> score 1 -if fly speed > 0 --> score 1.5 (so, I'm saying spitballing that having the ability to fly instantly makes you 50% better in this campaign)
Defense For a while time I was holding the strong opinion that mount's AC was worthless 'cause I was taking hits for him (Mounted Combatant, my AC=18)...but...that's not quite true...mostly.What matters is how much abuse can team paladin+mount can take? I think its most appropriate to calculate each's defense power and add them together.What did I think mattered? HP * attack defense factor * saving throw factor
...Here enters my gross inexperience w/ 5th ed... My best, probably wrong, understanding is that 5th ed implicitly normalized bonuses (bounded accuracy). Long story short, in my quick-and-dirty opinion, I think it makes most sense to relatively square root distance from 10 for a bunch of things. EX: +4 attack is only twice as good as +1 attack.
I further divided dragonce's contribution to this Defense score by 2. Look, at the end of the day, the paladin's life matters more. He dies and the dragon is worthless, right?dies??. The PC matters more.
Score Method: IndividualDefense = HP * square root of difference of AC from 10 * square root of average Saving Throw bonus TotalDefense = IndividualDefense(paladin) + IndividualDefense(dragon) / 2
Mobility What this really should say is COMBAT MOBILITY. Outside of a fight, who really cares? Straight speed should likely be the most obvious metric here. I also think there is likely some exponent that matters here. Going slow is exponentially crippling in a fight; if your opponents can easily outmaneuver you and stay out of reach, that is devastating. If we all move 30, its moot. If everyone is moving 30...but 1 person is moving 15, I think that is worse than twice as bad. At some point tactics and environment can mitigate some of that...Does it go both directions? If you can move 1000, I'm not sure its much better than if you could move 200. Yeah, i think this really tapers off the more you deviate from the average combatant.I think that a 3/4 root feels more appropriate for the real value.
That said, I do think the ability to workin 3D can help..some. I think flying speed should be treated as x2 land speed.
Score Method: GREATER of [(LANDSPEED)^.75] [(AIRSPEED/30)^.75*2]
Offense This was the most annoying OK, there are 4 sources of 'regular' damage I think that the paladin+Mount machine can dish out I'd say you should take their averages and add them up Paladin Attacking (assume a damage buff from spells/divine smite) Mount Attacking Mount Trampling Mount Breathing Fire (don't forget still does damage if it misses!)
For each of those, there are 4 variables to note: # of attacks/turn # of targets successful to-hit value average damage valueScore Method: i used most of the methods of previous aspects of normalization and the Offense score.
Score Method For each of the 4 attacks, I SUMPRODUCT'ed them all together.
I am not going to bore you all w/ some transcription of a every one of the 89 steps of progression. Suffice it to say, for every step I used the above methods to calculate the SCORE of each step and compare it to how the paladin would do w/ a plain warhorse...so, here is the closest my current formulas tell me is 'fair'
Spirit Gold Dragon [#26 Sub-]Wyrmling: Large celestial dragon, LG
AC: 13 (Natural Armor) Hit Points: 19 (3d10+3) Speed: 30 ft., fly 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
STR 18 (+2), DEX 12 (+1), CON 13 (+1), INT 6 (-2), WIS 11 (+0), CHA 7 (-2) Saving Throws Proficiencies: CON Saving Throws: STR+4, DEX+1, CON+3, INT-2, WIS+0, CHA-2) Skill Proficiencies: Perception Damage Immunities: Fire Senses: Blindsight 5, Darkvision 25, passive Perception 12 Languages: Draconic + "Find Steed telepathy w/ summoner"
Amphibious
Actions:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (1d10 + 4) piercing damage.
Breath Weapons (Recharge 6). The dragon uses one of the following breath weapons. Fire Breath. The dragon exhales fire in a 5-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw, taking 5 (1d10) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Weakening Breath. The dragon exhales gas in a 5-foot cone. Each creature in that area must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving throw or have disadvantage on Strength-based attack rolls, Strength checks, and Strength saving throws for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Disclaimer: I fully realize this is NOT a 'perfect wyrmling'. I'm trying to be thematic and honor the rules as much and not eclipse the pary in unfair power balance. Who is to say there aren't abnormal members of a dragon species? Clearly PCs already show that there can be enormous variance in stats of the same members of a species...
Preemptive thanks for all constructive help! I really want this to happen, but I don't trust my ability to evaluate what matters quantitiatively in this system.
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Player Context: RPing for long time. MOST experience in 3.5 and GURPS. VERY new to 5e.
Campaign Context: Curse of Strahd adventure
Resource Context: GM has mandated that we are only using CORE books. But at the same time, he does like to encourage people to have fun with their characters...
Semi-Spoiler Free Please:
I will minor spoil some limited stuff my party has encountered in the CoS campaign. If you have not played and wish to, you might stop reading now.
I feel the nature of the campaign is *very relevant* to this thread, but please don't spoil what's coming to us beyond what I mention; I want to be surprised! Thanks!
Player Desire: "I want to be a knight riding a gold dragon."
PC: 5th level Tiefling [Oath fo Vengeance] Paladin [of Bahamut] who HAS MOUNTED COMBATANT FEAT
Proposal:
A) design a ton of intermediate steps to 'upgrade/convert' the base Find Steed warhorse into a [tweaked: Large] gold dragon wyrmling
B) have the paladin sacrifice some class features to effectively get a superior Steed
C) evaluate how much lots class features of the paladin justify how many steps down the path for the mount to be a 'better' wyrmling
A) Project: DRAGON
There are a few phases to the conversion of warhorse to [Large] wyrmling:
Phase 0) BASELINE (1 step) = 'no change' = you have the Find Steed Warhorse
Phase 1) Morphology of a Dragon (3 steps) = [mostly] non-game mechanic, cosmetic changes (aesthestic/cosmetic appearance, attack: hooves --> bite, damage type: bludgeoning -> piercing)
Phase 2) Weak to Parity (3 steps) = reduce all the Steed's stats to the lower of the Warhorse or the Wyrmling (lower WIS, lower land speed, lower attack damage dice, lose Trampling Charge)
Phase 3) Baseline to gold dragon 'species (3 steps) = give a few minor non-numeric abilities gold dragons have (alignment shift, Immune to Fire, Amphibious)
Phase 4) Progress to [Large] Wyrmling (65 steps) = linearly increment 1 single non-formulaically derived single stat at a time per step until reach [Large] Wyrmling (AC, HD, fly speed, swim speed, Abilities, saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, blindsight/darkvision, breath weapon stat recharge/range/damage)
B) Custom Paladin Class Features Changes:
- LOSE Divine Sense
- LOSE Spellcasting (all)
- GAIN some new unique ability which is effectively mimicing a reduced scope Find Steed: "Spirit of the Dragon: Once/day, can cast Find Steed as an innate ability; it can ONLY summon your dragon steed. Otherwise acts like Find Steed, but can't share spells."
-LOSE Divine Smite (inferred by loss of spellcasting anyway...)
-LOSE Channel Divinity (all)
-ALTER Lay on Hands: accessibility --> restrict to self and dragon-only
Best Stab at Summary of Impact of Changes:
-the spellcasting loss and smite hits hardest I think for a paladin -- under the right circumstances vs. undead, which is basically all we've fought so far, there is a TON of radiant damage I could theoretically mete out in a turn. W/ Divine Simte and a buff spell, I could deal +16d8+4d4 radiant (average ~82), and then factor that Advantaged attacks double chances of getting a crit hit. Losing spellcasting removes ALL of the above noted radiant damage. The ability to do a bunch of that damage could ALSO get cloned on the Find Steed Warhorse too. He could add a MINOR amount more of radiant damage over time to that...
-worth noting the context that we've already encountered vampires...and I seem to be basically the only source of radiant damage for the party currently...
-for a BBEG, the loss of Channel Divinity could also be significant
-The party has extremely limited healing powers; the restriction on Lay on Hands could be signficant.
-Divine Sense can be circumstantially nice, but honestly, no huge loss.
C) Evaluate Equivalence
Approach: treat paladin w/ full powers+Warhorse = paladin w/ changed&lost powers+dragon --> what is the efficacy of them as a combined unit. If paladin loses tricks and mount gains some, how does that affect the unit? Damage Output / Damage Absorption / Mobility / Utility
I'm going to make a rough formula:
paladin w/ full powers+Warhorse(OFFENSE * DEFENSE * MOBILITY * UTILITY) = paladin w/ changed&lost powers+dragon AT STEP X(OFFENSE * DEFENSE * MOBILITY * UTILITY)
Utility
The more and more I thought about it, the only thing I can think of is the ability to fly. I dont' mean in combat or at any particular speed. There is literally just a class of problems that can be solved by "we can just fly up there".Some considerations
-5th level wizards can cast Fly anyways (and we have several wizards)
-the mists seem to limit distance from party so this gets less useful outdoors
-the dragon can't exactly carry a tank; he's not that strong! -- I can't just go carry the whole party...
-we are inside/underground a lot
-Amphibious, highly inferior skills, vision -- nothing else even seemed remotely relevant to attempt to consider
Score Method:
-if fly speed = 0 --> score 1
-if fly speed > 0 --> score 1.5 (so, I'm saying spitballing that having the ability to fly instantly makes you 50% better in this campaign)
Defense
For a while time I was holding the strong opinion that mount's AC was worthless 'cause I was taking hits for him (Mounted Combatant, my AC=18)...but...that's not quite true...mostly.What matters is how much abuse can team paladin+mount can take? I think its most appropriate to calculate each's defense power and add them together.What did I think mattered? HP * attack defense factor * saving throw factor
...Here enters my gross inexperience w/ 5th ed...
My best, probably wrong, understanding is that 5th ed implicitly normalized bonuses (bounded accuracy). Long story short, in my quick-and-dirty opinion, I think it makes most sense to relatively square root distance from 10 for a bunch of things. EX: +4 attack is only twice as good as +1 attack.
I further divided dragonce's contribution to this Defense score by 2. Look, at the end of the day, the paladin's life matters more. He dies and the dragon is worthless, right?dies??. The PC matters more.
Score Method:
IndividualDefense = HP * square root of difference of AC from 10 * square root of average Saving Throw bonus
TotalDefense = IndividualDefense(paladin) + IndividualDefense(dragon) / 2
Mobility
What this really should say is COMBAT MOBILITY. Outside of a fight, who really cares? Straight speed should likely be the most obvious metric here. I also think there is likely some exponent that matters here. Going slow is exponentially crippling in a fight; if your opponents can easily outmaneuver you and stay out of reach, that is devastating. If we all move 30, its moot. If everyone is moving 30...but 1 person is moving 15, I think that is worse than twice as bad. At some point tactics and environment can mitigate some of that...Does it go both directions? If you can move 1000, I'm not sure its much better than if you could move 200. Yeah, i think this really tapers off the more you deviate from the average combatant.I think that a 3/4 root feels more appropriate for the real value.
That said, I do think the ability to workin 3D can help..some. I think flying speed should be treated as x2 land speed.
Score Method:
GREATER of [(LANDSPEED)^.75] [(AIRSPEED/30)^.75*2]
Preemptive thanks for all constructive help! I really want this to happen, but I don't trust my ability to evaluate what matters quantitiatively in this system.