If that is the case, then Blastlocks need to be nerfed, because not only do they get similar damage to the fighter at-will in the PHB, they also get spells up to ninth level AND MORE evocations, as well as a feature from their subclass.
Also, feats, magic items, spells, etc... are accounted for in the calculations I've been doing.
782 damage over 6 rounds for a fighter.
792 damage over 6 rounds for Kriegehexe Lite Hexblade.
The difference is 10 damage over 6 rounds at level 20. That's like 1.66 more damage per round. They do similar damage all they way up through the levels EXCEPT FOR LEVELS 17-19. So for two levels, the Warlock has better at will damage by a good margin.
The fighter also has a ton more feats. Which I equate to spells. So that's handled. They do less, but most of them are always on and don't need a recharge ever. Not to mention the Warlock has an extremely limited pool of spells to choose from and an extremely limited use of spells 6th levels and higher.
So the only real difference is levels 17-19. So what's the damage difference there?
(11d6(50) + 2d4(6) + 171) = 227 for the first round.
(6d6(27) + 1d4(3) + 57) = 87 for subsequent rounds.
662 damage for 6 rounds. Versus 792. So a difference of over 100 damage for two levels.
If you want my reasoning for this calculation, read my other comments.
I'm going to continue to say that I agree with the sentiment, but I still think this needs to be nerfed a bit.
Your completely stepping on the fighter's toes by giving them 4 attacks then for 1 level investment your increasing damage die size. You shouldn't use other warlocks as your comparison you should be looking at how it stacks up against other melee classes.
Actually, mathematically this doesn't add up.
Hexblade's with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast get 4 attacks before Fighters anyway, and do 4d10+20 damage at that level. I've run the math for these types of changes compare with Ranger (Colossus Hunter or whatever), Rogue Assassin, Eldritch Knight, and all the other Warlock Subclasses.
This build does slightly more damage than Eldritch Knight but has less armor (which only seems fair as this build does less damage than Assassins and assassins have less survivability).
Several people have mentioned that Warlock itself may be broken which may be true. But I don't think this in any way makes Hexblades "more" broken as this build still requires more investment than the meme EB+AB combo.
Again, mathematically, you're doing slightly more damage than a Eldritch Knight, under one set of circumstances (investing 100% into damage amongst Pact/Invocation options), and has less survivability via HP/armor.
It's about as reasonably balanced as you could hope for :)
(Hex Warrior Improvement) Fell Smite: Any weapon you use as your Hex Weapon deal's 1d10 base damage (Eldritch Blast's base damage). If you wield a weapon with theVersatile property in 2 hands, the damage of your Hex Weapon is increased to 1d12. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, Fell Smite's benefits extend to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.
(Improved Pact Weapon Enhancement): You may now conjure your Pact Weapon as a Bonus Action, instead of an Action. If you already have a weapon conjured, you may mold it into a new weapon for a Free Action, once per turn.
This still actually requires more of an investment than a 'normal' weapon which can be drawn for free, despite popular belief: "You [can] draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack." (PHB Chapter 9 > Order of Combat > Other Activities On Your Turn)
(Thirsting Blade Enhancement): In addition, this invocation allows you to take a 3rd attack at level 11, and a 4th attack at level 17 (matching Eldritch Blast's freeextra attack bonuses)
Uhh... Couple few points.
Fell Smite. You give all Hex weapons a flat 1d10, except versatile when used two-handed goes to1d12. That would make it pointless to ever use a two-handed weapon, because versatile wold be objectively far superior. This also gives the Longbow the same damage as a heavy crossbow at a vastly superior range, 30 ft. better than regular EB, anda long range out to 600 ft.
Improved Pact Weapon Enhancement. This makes it so they could switch from quarterstaff to longbow or back again in the proverbial blink of an eye.
Thirsting Blade Enhancement. This gives the Hexblade 4 Weapon-Attacks per Action 3 entire levels before Fighters!
Fell Smite: Actually, hexblades explicitly cannot use two-handed melee weapons. Fell Smite is to make it so Hexblades have a reason to use their primary class feature as opposed to ditching it completely for Eldritch Blast.
Improved Pact Weapon: Actually no, go back and read my text. You can conjure it out of nothing for a bonus action, and you can 'mold' it for free once per turn. This means you could change it once per turn... but not back and forth for those shenanigans.
Thirsting Blade Enhancement: Eldritch Blast gives Warlocks 4 attacks before fighters without an investment (no invocation, class feature, nada.) Thirsting Blade Enhanced requires a Subclass (Hexblade), Pact (Pact of the Blade) Invocation Slot (Thirsting Blade) AND 17 levels exclusively in Warlock to get this. This constitutes enormous investment, and mathematically, without this change, Hexblades do pitiful damage compared to other Warlocks, Fighters, Rogues, Rangers (yup, I've checked em all).
So I hear your concerns but respectfully find them invalid for the reasons mentioned above :)
If that is the case, then Blastlocks need to be nerfed, because not only do they get similar damage to the fighter at-will in the PHB, they also get spells up to ninth level AND MORE evocations, as well as a feature from their subclass.
Also, feats, magic items, spells, etc... are accounted for in the calculations I've been doing.
782 damage over 6 rounds for a fighter.
792 damage over 6 rounds for Kriegehexe Lite Hexblade.
The difference is 10 damage over 6 rounds at level 20. That's like 1.66 more damage per round. They do similar damage all they way up through the levels EXCEPT FOR LEVELS 17-19. So for two levels, the Warlock has better at will damage by a good margin.
The fighter also has a ton more feats. Which I equate to spells. So that's handled. They do less, but most of them are always on and don't need a recharge ever. Not to mention the Warlock has an extremely limited pool of spells to choose from and an extremely limited use of spells 6th levels and higher.
So the only real difference is levels 17-19. So what's the damage difference there?
(11d6(50) + 2d4(6) + 171) = 227 for the first round.
(6d6(27) + 1d4(3) + 57) = 87 for subsequent rounds.
662 damage for 6 rounds. Versus 792. So a difference of over 100 damage for two levels.
If you want my reasoning for this calculation, read my other comments.
I'm going to continue to say that I agree with the sentiment, but I still think this needs to be nerfed a bit.
Actually your math adds up almost identically to mine --Yay math! :D The express purpose was to give the Krieghexe Light comparable/slightly superior damage to Fighters (Eldritch Knight as template).
The reasoning being that Eldritch Knights have a larger HP pool and better armor, and hence, Krieghexen ought to do better damage. Following this logic, I also took care to make sure Krieghexe lite does less damage than Rogues, as rogues have less armor/health still :)
Now we have a classification for why our swords do more damage than normal. Also, that makes the class a killer ranged attacker as well.
So essentially the hexblade is becoming the Warlock's version of assassin, but with better armor and less damage. That's a good way to think of it.
TANGENT: Should we consider reworking the 6th level Accursed Specter feature? That feature just seems totally useless and odd for the class to me. I'm trying to figure out ways to rework that.
Hey buddy! Good to see ya in the comments again! :) --Thanks, I like the Fell Smite rework a lot better too.
Actually, in terms of Accursed Specter, I've been thinking something similar. It's cool thematically but... I agree it sort of lacks 'synergy' with the class as a whole. I have an interesting idea that I'm toying with that I'm actually currently using for my Enhanced Lifedrinker, but may strip out and fully 'replace' the 6th level feature with.
OOOOOHHH you know what?? What if we:
Switched the 11th and 6th level class features (So you get Armor of Hexes at level 6 --not all that OP compared to other 3rd and 6th level class features honestly. Rogue's 5th level uncanny dodge comes to mind).
Actually bumped up the 11th level feature to 12 for the reason following (note, these will refer to the current Krieghexe Full changes to these invocations):
Replace "12th level" Accursed Specter with: Krieghexen's Warpath -Choose one of the 3 upgrades to a Pact of the Blade Invocation
Eldritch Smite Enhanced: You receive Eldritch Smite charges equal to your proficiency bonus that reset on long rest ---> You now recharge 1 Eldritch smite on a Short Rest.
Thirsting Blade Enhanced: Extra attacks at 11, 17 ---> You choose the weapon's damage type on the 3rd and 4th (successful) weapon attacks per turn (Eh? We could change this?)
Improved Pact Weapon: Summoned pact weapons are now +2 Magical Weapons(??)
Lifedrinker Enhanced: (my current, basic, level 12 version is this) You can invoke the bloodlust in your weapon to sustain you in combat. Once per battle, you can invoke Lifedrinker on your pact weapon(s) and achieve the following
For each weapon successful weapon attack, you heal points equal to your CHA modifier.
If you go more than one turn in combat without attempting to attack with your weapon (after invoking this feature), your weapon consumes your life force instead. You take damage equal to your CHA modifier.
While this feature is active, potions are only 1/2 has effective with you.
Warpath's Lifedrinker: (some upgrade to this?)
Idk. Just seems like it would be awesome to turn a cool/maybe out of place feature into an awesome upgrade of a single invocation. Something to play around with for sure before Kreighexe Full
Armor of hexes at level 6? That is good. I like that change.
Recharging 1 Eldritch Smite on a short rest at level 12... hmmm... why not recharge them all? That would not be overpowered at level 12, but only one does make it more interesting.
Here's the alternative to a fourth attack. I like the idea thematically about changing the damage type, but what if you just added 3d6(9) of necrotic, force, fire, thunder, lightning, psychic or cold (thematically appropriate, you wouldn't do radiant and it has to be magical in nature.) for one minute to one attack per turn once a day? (Yes, this is balanced because that is the same damage the Specter does, and it is almost literally the same thing that the specter does, without the stupidity of needing to resurrect someone as a specter.). Like an overcharge ability? The thing is, you also take half that damage (This makes up for the requirement of having to kill someone to obtain this power.) as well because the Hexblade is literally exploding with magic. This would make the multiple self-healing factors you have actually a little more important. This also would not be a good thing at level 12... it'd be too weak of an improvement at that point. So this would be a good level 6 replacement for the Accursed Specter but it would not work with Armor of Hexes at level 6. So you'd have to just straight up use this and forget the rest of your improvements. Might not be good for your build but I think I am going to add this to my build.
+2 magical weapons... oh boy. So... did you know that with pact weapon, you choose a weapon you already have and make it a pact weapon? So, a holy avenger could be a pact weapon. That would only be good for your temporary ranged weapons that you give to other people really, so it's not really that good if you think about it. Unless your DM is a total flopperdoodle when it comes to giving out magic items, then it is actually amazing.
Oooo I do love that new Lifedrinker. Yes that does make up for the extra healing a bit and feels a lot more... thematic. Very good.
Warpath's Lifedrinker: You now add your half your Charisma mod rounded up to HIT as well. Basically gives you an extra +3 to Hit. Makes your hits more precise, doesn't add extra damage. That's how I would improve that.
So this is the current build I got to playtest, I call it Improved Hexblade. (I'm going to add my overcharge ability to it, but I did not get to playtest that feature. I also will turn Eldritch Smite back into an invocation. I will playtest both builds and see which one I like better.)
Improved Hexblade just gets rid of the Level 6 ability and replaces it with Eldritch Smite based on Proficiency. Because you start out with at 6th level with this, the initial damage is 3d8, and it adds 1d8 at level 7, and 1d8 at level 9. It's exactly the same as the invocation, except with proficiency slots, so basically I just traded out the level 6 ability with an invocation.
That gives you one more invocation, and you achieve the status of Short range / long range at-will damage at lot sooner in build.
Even just one extra invocation is super powerful. Now your Eldritch Blasts send them flying back ten feet and your melee attacks make them go prone twice per long rest at level 6 when you get it, and immediately the next level it becomes three times per short rest.
I also got the chance to playtest this build at level 7.
PLAYTEST RESULTS!!!
I did a playtest with this build using two person DnD, my wife controlled the monsters, I controlled the PCs. (I was testing two other builds at the same time.) At one point, I rolled really well and my Improved Hexblade destroyed a monster with 65 health and no damage in one turn at level 7. I did a total of 57 damage with one swing. Take in mind, this is not damage that would be unachievable by a normal hexblade. I used one normal Eldritch Smite, Two Hexes, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Hexblade Improved Pact Weapon, and thirsting blade. (How did I get the hexes in one turn you ask? Well I killed an enemy beforehand and used a bonus action on that turn to move to spell to the new healthy target. Then I cast Hexblade's curse on the new target as a bonus action on the following turn (had not used it yet).) Eldritch Smite, the regular version, IS NOT A BONUS ACTION OR A SPELL. You can use it when you hit with an attack.)
None of those things are something the improvements added. The only thing that changed is that afterwards I had used two Hexblade Smite slots (My name for it) and still had my regular spells available so if I continued with hitting with Eldritch Smite, I would have run out and had to CHANGE MY ENTIRE STRATEGY for the rest of the day. After you run out of Eldritch Smites based on Proficiency, your strategy now has to change. You then go back to Eldritch Blast, relying on AB + RB(fall damage) and hexes to do an extra 2d6(3) + 9 or 12 damage, roughly 28 damage per EB or casting one of your Pact Spell Slots. Remember that Warlocks can cast spells? Now you'll actually use them.
You get a total of about five or six(rod of the pact keeper) turns of casting spells or Eldritch Smite at level 7 before you become a Blastlock again with the improvements. So if you have two encounters per day (typical adventure), you'll only spend half of that session as a blastlock or none if you get a short rest... This FEELS LIKE a TON more variety than regular Hexblades. I love the simple change of making Eldritch Smite have its own slots a ton. That is probably one of the best ideas for a warlock I have heard of.
Anyways, keep on trucking, I can't wait to see your final build.
This has some really interesting stuff. I quite like your idea of somehow 'merging' specter's damage into your Hexblade for one minute, once a day, or something to that effect. Technically, this is actually weaker than the Specter, as the Specter lasts for 24 hours, and if managed properly, could survive several fights (more than just 1 minute, for sure), but I still like it being 'baked in' to your weapon, as opposed to... a sorta there pet kinda.
Oh, and the reason the Upgraded Eldritch Smite at Level 12 only recharged 1 Eldritch Smite on short rest, is that at level 12, you already get 4 charges a day, so even with 2 short rests in a day, you are now getting 12 charges of 5d8 damage each which I think put it over the top. That said, maybe it would be better worded/balanced as "You regain up to half (rounded down) of your expended Eldritch Smite charges on a short rest. This would mean if you burned all 4 charges, you would regain 2, and if you'd burned 2-3, you'd regain 1.
Here's a thought for a custom invocation I've been toying with (though I tend to avoid custom invocations as... they're harder to balance than just a single subclass, ironically), but maybe it would do much better as a replacement feature. Combined with your Hexblade's Smite, Feature, I think it's quite good, thematic, and where Hexblade's Smite is technically weaker than the Specter, this gives you just a bit more utilitiy to compensate.
Krieghexe's Smite: At level 6, you receive the following benefits
-You gain Eldritch Smite as a free invocation (does not count against your invocation limit), and you may use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus each day. If you already have Eldritch Smite, it becomes Krieghexe's Smite, and you may choose another Invocation to fill your now-empty invocation slot.
-You may cast Hex at will, without expending written or material components, and it no longer requires concentration for you. You may still only apply this spell to one creature at a time, and casting it on a new creature removes its effects from a previous creature.
Hex at will I’d reserve for level 14. You pretty much get that anyways when the spell reaches third level, and let’s be honest, if a dm uses the 8 hour limit against you in the first place, they have something against you. As a DM I do think you need that leeway though. Just add that to Master of Hexes and I think that would be good.
Extra Invocations - That’s great, I experimented with the idea of just getting rid of the level 6 ability and having extra invocations. I like that build better than the original Hexblade with just that adjustment, thirsting blade improvements, and Eldritch Smite have proficiency slots.
I made my Eldritch Overcharge technically worse on purpose. The reason I did that is because it’s going to be really hard to get that ability past a dm. It’s too flashy for most dms I know. They get mad at power very easily, even if it is the exact same power the base classes have already. I also added a possibility that your weapon could explode in your face, just to give the dms something against that ability and my dm STILL said no to it.
After all this talk and research and trying to mitigate the abilities so that it is not overpowered, I’ve realized that home brew has a big problem with it.
Even if you change the classes how you want to make them more thematic, balanced, or less underpowered, your DM can just say no to it, so you almost never benefit from the changes you made if you made them yourself. That’s extremely frustrating.
My first play with a Hexblade, the DM outright banned the 'summon weapon' feature, stating it was OP to be able to summon a melee weapon at will so that was just a nope period. Meanwhile, her husband had a multi-classed Ranger/Assassin Hybrid with like +12 to hit at an average 30 damage per round at level 4/5. All just as legal, but somehow, the summon weapon feature was OP.
Though I have been a DM for most of my campaigns now for years, in my current one, I simply showed my DM a spreadsheet (she also knows I've DM'd a long time) showing the damage outputs at each level for Warlock, Hexblade, Eldritch Knight, Ranger (Hunter-Colossus Slayer), Rogue (Assassin), and how atrocious Hexblade damage as time goes on.
I frankly would consider making something similar, and showing your DM how you're not trying to 'overpower' your character. You're simply trying to make it viable compared, specifically, to other Warlocks.
Also, while I don't recommend this often, in this case, to highlight it, you could always do what I did and say 'and if that doesn't work... I can always jump my character off a cliff, roll a blast-lock with Armor of Shadows, reskin EB as an 'arcane bow' and.... legally, you can't stop me. --I'll be much more overpowered than what I'm proposing now anyway, but I don't want to do that, I want something fun and balanced.
That, coupled with my spreadsheet, my DM was basically like 'alright fair enough, tweak what you think you need to, and if it seems crazy later, we'll adjust as needed. Fair?'
At the end of the day.... hopefully.... math and numbers prevail over fear and unfounded trepidation.
P.S. Good news, just finished running the most robust stat analysis I've done yet across 8 subclasses and 12 combat scenarios. Using it, I was able to dial in level-specific tweaks to the Krieghexe that made it just about perfectly balanced. In a nutshell, coming very soon:
New/Final Krieghexe Base Damage Comparison: (all other classes tested with a weapon with 1d8 weapon --longsword, rapier, etc)
Blastlocks: Always 1-3 points above EB+AB damage at every level (except 11 where EB+AB is ahead by 8. Meh.)
Fighter (Eldritch Knight): Almost identical to Fighter base damage output at every level (most levels it's exactly tied or exactly 1 below, 2 it's below 10, 2 it's above 10) but fighter Action Surge clearly out-classes Krieghexe. Fighters also still have second wind, subclass-features (like spells for EK) and, most significantly heavy armor to give them a solid edge as a true 'frontline warrior'.
Rogue/Assassin: Krieghexe base damage is roughly comparable, but generally a 5ish points ahead. This is primarily because Rogues never get an extra attack, and, despite popular belief, are generally not high damage dealers (with the situational exception of assassins). Krieghexe base damage is always below average assassinate damage, and normally by a large margin (10+points), especially after level 17. After 2-3 turns in combat, Krieghexe average damage starts to increase with Hex, Hexblades curse, etc taking effect, but these are limited use compared to sneak attack, or even Assassinate in some ways and take multiple rounds in combat to set up.
Ranger (Hunter-Colossus Slayer): This is, to my knowledge, the highest base-damage Ranger class (though I guess I'm technically missing a few books). Colossus Slayer competes almost identically with both Eldritch Knights and Krieghexe, until level 12 when a Krieghexe can take the Lifedrinker invocation (and EK's get extra attack at level 11).
Summary: Krieghexen now do base damage almost identical to Colossus Slayers and Eldritch Knights until level 12, and almost identical to EK's at almost all levels, and base damage 1-3 points above Blastlocks at almost all levels (This also means that 100% legal Blastlocks actually easily compete with all fighters for raw damage output at every level... without extra investment... just to reiterate the importance of this rebalance). They generally (along with all other classes mentioned) do higher base damage than Rogues, but less Assassinate (especially starting at 17th level). Krieghexen do have some burst-damage options, but they are relatively limited/take several turns to optimally set up and require invocation/spell slot investment to utilize.
In general, Krieghexen will do comparable base damage to a fighter, though with less armor and maximum HP.
They're primary 'niche' is that, as battle pushes into the 3rd or 4th turn, a Krieghexe will be able to bring more and more abilities online. As each ability requires a bonus action, and often a spell or other limited use 'slot' to activate, resource management and time are still really important for a Krieghexe.
All told, they're probably the best of the classes listed for a long fight against a single target. In shorter fights, fights with many, weaker enemies, they hold their own, but won't outshine Rogues, Fighters, and well built Rangers, as they'll constantly be 'moving' their Hex, and won't have the (bonus) action economy, or likely desire to expend Hexblade's Curse, Spectral Warrior, Soul Thirst, etc. and stack them all (and more) on each, smaller enemy. Like I said, it takes some time, and resources to bring all of a Hexblade's powers online.
They are generally second or third in burst damage (after Assassin almost always and usually after EK), unless they save their burst abilities (namely Eldritch Smite) until several turns in combat when their bonuses are active. In either case, on Turn 1-2, a Krieghexe would be hard pressed to truly out-perform an Assassin or EK.
They have some self-heal abilities but they require a limiting feature, such as a spell/hexblade curse use, or Soul Thirst's custom mechanic.
It's also important to remember that this reflects a 'best case scenario/perfect' Krieghexe build, with all invocations etc. compared to other 'perfectly DPS optimized' builds.
--Virtually all of the bonuses to damage, self heals, spells use, etc. are tied to specific Pact Boon or Invocation investments a Krieghexe has to make at the expense of other, significant class features. Warlocks can use invocations to turn invisible at will, permanently breathe under water with swimming speed, cast disguise or alter self at will, or even completely remove the need to sleep. Ever. So, when a Krieghexe sacrifices those options for battle-related bonuses that boost their strength to be on par with other warrior type classes (and actually fills a niche they don't currently fill to prevent toe-stepping/redundancy), it seems quite balanced overall.
I'll never say it enough, but 4 spell slots at lvl18 is a freakin joke, no matter they recharge on short rests, if you end up ina party that doesn't take those, you are screwed over...
It should be 6 or 8 slots, thats #1.
Also to fix the Hexblade there's a few things that can be done.
-Drop Accursed Specter at lvl6 and change it for the Extra attack feature at level 5, College of Swords BArds get the extra attack at lvl5/6, without any special consideration,so an Hexblade should not use one of his invocations for this.
Also Accursed Specter has no Synergies with ANY of the classes features, doesn't scale and while its Life drain attack can be interesting, the fact that it doesn't scale mean his DC10 save on this attack is ridiculously easy to counter at higher levels.
-Change Thirsting Blade invocation, into "Eldritch Strike- When you take the attack action with the extra attack feature, you can exchange One of your attacks to cast a melee spell Cantrip instead, the Melee spell cantrip must use your Hex/Pact Weapon.
-Add a new Invocation/Feature at higher levels(12+) "Dark Reaper- Once per long rest, when you bring a creature to 0HP with your Hex/Pact Weapon, you can sacrifice its Soul to your Patron, you regain One expanded Pact magic Slot"
-Add the Steel Wind Strike and Destruction Wave spells to the Hexblade Spell list ,also replace Elemental Weapon with Haste.
-Improved Pact Weapon Invocation that allows to Summon the Pact Weapon as a bonus action is a good idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
I'll never say it enough, but 4 spell slots at lvl18 is a freakin joke, no matter they recharge on short rests, if you end up ina party that doesn't take those, you are screwed over...
It should be 6 or 8 slots, thats #1.
Also to fix the Hexblade there's a few things that can be done.
-Drop Accursed Specter at lvl6 and change it for the Extra attack feature at level 5, College of Swords BArds get the extra attack at lvl5/6, without any special consideration,so an Hexblade should not use one of his invocations for this.
Also Accursed Specter has no Synergies with ANY of the classes features, doesn't scale and while its Life drain attack can be interesting, the fact that it doesn't scale mean his DC10 save on this attack is ridiculously easy to counter at higher levels.
-Change Thirsting Blade invocation, into "Eldritch Strike- When you take the attack action with the extra attack feature, you can exchange One of your attacks to cast a melee spell Cantrip instead, the Melee spell cantrip must use your Hex/Pact Weapon.
-Add a new Invocation/Feature at higher levels(12+) "Dark Reaper- Once per long rest, when you bring a creature to 0HP with your Hex/Pact Weapon, you can sacrifice its Soul to your Patron, you regain One expanded Pact magic Slot"
-Add the Steel Wind Strike and Destruction Wave spells to the Hexblade Spell list ,also replace Elemental Weapon with Haste.
-Improved Pact Weapon Invocation that allows to Summon the Pact Weapon as a bonus action is a good idea.
Not bad thoughts! Not bad at all! I quite like these, particularly the Dark Reaper concept (Eldritch Strike is very interesting as well).
I just finished the Krieghexe math for damage output, but it's still got a few loose ends for utility/thematic balance, and good ideas are always welcome, no matter the stage of development. :)
I just might have to look to see how I can work some of these in in a balanced way...
I'd recommend taking the question of Hexblade vs. any other warlock to Tips and Tricks, because I think your assumptions are flawed, but this isn't going to get much traction in Homebrew. A non-Hex EB lock is pretty much capped at 5d10+25+5d6 (average 70) per round as a pure Warlock with one invocation investment, or at twice that if multi'd with a Sorcerer (quickened EB + regular EB), or can do three times that once if multi'd with a Sorcerer and with a Fighter (EB + Action Surge EB + Quickened EB). A Hexblade that is focused on EB will objectively do more damage with the same tricks, because they can also add another 6 damage per bolt from the HB Curse, and crit on 19's. So right off the bat, your premise is really more about Bladelocks than it is about Hexblades, because Hexblades are the best EB users of all the Warlocks.
So we've established that a pure Hexblade focused on EB can do 76 per round with one invocation, a sorc-hexblade can do 152 per round for several rounds, and a sorc-hexblade-fighter can do 228 for at least one round. Pretty good. What can a Hexblade focused on melee do?
A pure Hexblade that's a Pact of the Blade can get up to two attacks with one invocation, and can use a Greatsword. That's only 4d6+10+2d6+12 (average 43) per round. Seems a bit behind EB... but if you add on Lifedrinker as a second invocation there's another +10 damage, and Improved Pact Weapon for another +2, we're up to 55, starting to close the gap! Great Weapon Master can be taken as a feat, to bump this up to +10 damage per hit, and now we're at average 75 damage per round, pretty much equal with the Hexblade EB and superior to the non-Hexblade EB build, although admittedly we are limited by melee range, and a lower to-hit bonus. But then, we have the ability to be wielding a magic weapon (does not stack with Improved Pact Weapon, drop that invocation if a magic weapon is available), which quite possible could bump this even higher or provide additional effects. And lets not forget Eldritch Smite... you may only potentially get that once per encounter if your other slot has been taken up by Hex, but another 6d8 (average 27, or can be held for a crit for average 54) can jump you up quite a bit.
So melee Hexblade is equal to or superior to EB Hexblade for raw damage, and EB Hexblade is superior to EB otherlock. But what about the sorcerer/fighter multiclass options that bump EB even higher?
A melee Hexblade is less free to multiclass than an EB Hexblade, because instead of only needing one cantrip and one level 2 invocation, it may be important to stick Warlock through 12th level for Lifedrinker, or 5th level for Eldritch Smite or Thirsting Blade. But that still leaves at least 8 levels of Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, or Ranger to buff yourself further. Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7 will pick you up Divine Smite (2d8 or 3d8 after a confirmed hit) and Aura of Hate for another static +5/hit (+10/round). Unfortunately competes with Fighter 2+ for Action Surge, which may actually be superior with Battlemaster (bonus d8's and advantage generation) or Eldritch Knight (sub a Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade in for one of your two melee attacks/round). Fighter is also useful for picking up Great Weapon fighting style, which will let you reroll all the 1's and 2's on a melee attack (whether its weapon damage die, hex die, or other), a nifty bump that will be usually worth at least a few extra damage per round. Rogue probably isn't worth using a smaller weapon, unless the Revived is an option and you have high Dexterity, but a few of the Ranger subclasses could be decent to generate some extra attacks or d8's of damage, if you can spare a 13 wisdom (certainly doable since a Hexblade only needs middling Dexterity, or even no Dexterity at all if you lean into Heavy Armor by starting as a Fighter or Paladin or using a feat). A College of Whispers Bard is probably the most effective dps of the bard trades, and could again do some great synergy with a Paladin's smites, if you weren't going to be an Oathbreaker and take Paladin all the way to 7.
Of these options, I think that the Hex 12/Oathbreaker 7/Fighter 1 spikes the highest (stacking Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite on top of a crit, for a total of 4d6+2d6+6d8+12d8+10+5+5+6+1, reroll 1's and 2's, probably around 150ish for a single hit), but a Hex 12/Hunter 3/Battlemaster 5 or a Hex 12/EK 8 will probably do more consistent round-to-round damage by taking more attacks or replacing one attack per round with a cantrip. It's enough to reach sorc-lock levels for sure... but again, with the caveat that you're stuck in melee, have a lower to-hit from GWM, aren't able to split up your damage to as many targets as EB allows, and is a bit 'tighter' of a build to plot out.
I'd recommend taking the question of Hexblade vs. any other warlock to Tips and Tricks, because I think your assumptions are flawed, but this isn't going to get much traction in Homebrew. A non-Hex EB lock is pretty much capped at 5d10+25+5d6 (average 70) per round as a pure Warlock with one invocation investment, or at twice that if multi'd with a Sorcerer (quickened EB + regular EB), or can do three times that once if multi'd with a Sorcerer and with a Fighter (EB + Action Surge EB + Quickened EB). A Hexblade that is focused on EB will objectively do more damage with the same tricks, because they can also add another 6 damage per bolt from the HB Curse, and crit on 19's. So right off the bat, your premise is really more about Bladelocks than it is about Hexblades, because Hexblades are the best EB users of all the Warlocks.
So we've established that a pure Hexblade focused on EB can do 76 per round with one invocation, a sorc-hexblade can do 152 per round for several rounds, and a sorc-hexblade-fighter can do 228 for at least one round. Pretty good. What can a Hexblade focused on melee do?
A pure Hexblade that's a Pact of the Blade can get up to two attacks with one invocation, and can use a Greatsword. That's only 4d6+10+2d6+12 (average 43) per round. Seems a bit behind EB... but if you add on Lifedrinker as a second invocation there's another +10 damage, and Improved Pact Weapon for another +2, we're up to 55, starting to close the gap! Great Weapon Master can be taken as a feat, to bump this up to +10 damage per hit, and now we're at average 75 damage per round, pretty much equal with the Hexblade EB and superior to the non-Hexblade EB build, although admittedly we are limited by melee range, and a lower to-hit bonus. But then, we have the ability to be wielding a magic weapon (does not stack with Improved Pact Weapon, drop that invocation if a magic weapon is available), which quite possible could bump this even higher or provide additional effects. And lets not forget Eldritch Smite... you may only potentially get that once per encounter if your other slot has been taken up by Hex, but another 6d8 (average 27, or can be held for a crit for average 54) can jump you up quite a bit.
So melee Hexblade is equal to or superior to EB Hexblade for raw damage, and EB Hexblade is superior to EB otherlock. But what about the sorcerer/fighter multiclass options that bump EB even higher?
A melee Hexblade is less free to multiclass than an EB Hexblade, because instead of only needing one cantrip and one level 2 invocation, it may be important to stick Warlock through 12th level for Lifedrinker, or 5th level for Eldritch Smite or Thirsting Blade. But that still leaves at least 8 levels of Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, or Ranger to buff yourself further. Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7 will pick you up Divine Smite (2d8 or 3d8 after a confirmed hit) and Aura of Hate for another static +5/hit (+10/round). Unfortunately competes with Fighter 2+ for Action Surge, which may actually be superior with Battlemaster (bonus d8's and advantage generation) or Eldritch Knight (sub a Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade in for one of your two melee attacks/round). Fighter is also useful for picking up Great Weapon fighting style, which will let you reroll all the 1's and 2's on a melee attack (whether its weapon damage die, hex die, or other), a nifty bump that will be usually worth at least a few extra damage per round. Rogue probably isn't worth using a smaller weapon, unless the Revived is an option and you have high Dexterity, but a few of the Ranger subclasses could be decent to generate some extra attacks or d8's of damage, if you can spare a 13 wisdom (certainly doable since a Hexblade only needs middling Dexterity, or even no Dexterity at all if you lean into Heavy Armor by starting as a Fighter or Paladin or using a feat). A College of Whispers Bard is probably the most effective dps of the bard trades, and could again do some great synergy with a Paladin's smites, if you weren't going to be an Oathbreaker and take Paladin all the way to 7.
Of these options, I think that the Hex 12/Oathbreaker 7/Fighter 1 spikes the highest (stacking Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite on top of a crit, for a total of 4d6+2d6+6d8+12d8+10+5+5+6+1, reroll 1's and 2's, probably around 150ish for a single hit), but a Hex 12/Hunter 3/Battlemaster 5 or a Hex 12/EK 8 will probably do more consistent round-to-round damage by taking more attacks or replacing one attack per round with a cantrip. It's enough to reach sorc-lock levels for sure... but again, with the caveat that you're stuck in melee, have a lower to-hit from GWM, aren't able to split up your damage to as many targets as EB allows, and is a bit 'tighter' of a build to plot out.
Again, the stated goal of this rework is not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage.
It's to get a Bladelock to use their blade.
I'll add that we are trying to avoid multi-classing. Or at least I am.
We just want the classes name to make sense. That is all. At least that is all I'm trying to do with my reworks.
If its just to make a Pact of the Blade Hexblade use their blade, I am confident that they already do so. A run-of-the-mill Hexblade - Pact of the Blade character can easily afford an AC of 19 with a shield in Medium armor, or 20 with a single feat investment (either Heavily Armored or Medium Armor Master would work depending on their stats) or with a high Dex in Mage Armor. Warcaster is a feat that most warlocks want anyway (to keep a high level Hex up for all or most of the day), and provides extra benefits to a warlock willing to get into melee range. 1d8+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1 (Longsword, avg. 25), or 2d6+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1+10 (Greatsword, avg. 37.5) twice per round (50 or 75 per round total) is more than a Barbarian or melee Ranger is likely to be doing, even without getting into Eldritch Smite. Hexblade HP is decently tanky (the difference between a d8 and a d10 hit die is neligible), and I don't see that they fall behind other "normal" melee characters that aren't Fighters or Rogues or Paladins specializing in huge DPR.
The easiest way to make a Hexblade use his sword as a DM? Give him a cool magic sword he's excited to use, don't rewrite his class features.
I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread. This is how much damage a hexblade does with Eldritch Blast. I've ran the math several times.
"EB + AB + RB
(4d10(20) + 8d6(24) + 48)
92 on average.
80 on average if your dm thinks fall damage is stupid."
What features are you using to get that damage?
Eldritch Blast
Agonizing Blast
Repelling Blast
Hex
Hexblade's Curse
That's it.
Now I'll quote you just now.
"1d8+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1 (Longsword, avg. 25), or 2d6+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1+10 (Greatsword, avg. 37.5) twice per round (50 or 75 per round total)"
Let's Add Eldritch Smite for fun.
50 + 4d8(18) = 68
75 + 4d8(18) = 93 (Only if you have a Greatsword.)
Are Greatswords allowed to be hexblades?
Nope. Not at first.
Hex Warrior
At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.
The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property.When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.
So you can get a greatsword!!
Yes, at level 3, if you choose Pact of the Blade. However, this destroys your action economy because you have to PUT DOWN THE WEAPON to cast Hex, and then pick it back up again. You need War Caster to overcome this.
This means that you've now used 5 invocations and one feat to outdo the damage a cantrip does by 1 point for two, maybe three, turns, using all your spell slots and taking an entire turn to set up. Congrats. That's awful.
Objections
"and I don't see that they fall behind other "normal" melee characters that aren't Fighters or Rogues or Paladins specializing in huge DPR."
They aren't normal melee characters, they specialize in DPR. There are numerous invocations that prove that, invocations are a valuable resource that give the Warlock Flavor. Fighters do 782 damage every 6 rounds. I did the math for this earlier, read my comments. Fighters and Assassin Rogues are the only things that are valid comparisons because they are the only classes that actually specialize in DPR and almost nothing else.
But the spells the Hexblade gets...
Are once a day powers, or one of four to five spell slots that end at 5th level. The highest damage you can do with spells as far as the Warlock goes is finger of death, which casts at 7th level, and you can only do it if you sacrifice an Eldritch Smite, which when you compare finger of death to a weapon attack with Eldritch Smite, it does LESS damage.
7d8(23) + 30 = 53 on average for Finger of Death
50 + 4d8(18) = 68 on average for Eldritch Smite.
And then the highest 9th level spell is Psychic Scream
14d6(49) damage on average.
The conclusion
Let's go with the lowest numbers.
Eldritch Blast at level 20 = 80 damage per round.
Hexblade Melee attack at level 20 = 68 damage per round.
The optimum choice for at-will damage for a Hexblade at level 20 and every level besides level 1 is Eldritch Blast.
This is objectively true.
So to change this without multi-classing, WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE CLASS.
Please, read my earlier comments and stop trying to compare the Hexblade class to other martial fighters. That isn't a valid comparison. This is a spell-casting class that sacrifices spell slots for at-will damage. It's not a martial class.
This is like trying to compare melee spells to martial weapons. The comparison is asinine and disingenuous. I redirect you to my earlier comments where I directly compared Fighters to the reworked Hexblade. Also, if you are worried about DPS balancing, please go somewhere else. Your energy is better directed at Wizards, who do close to 1000 damage in six rounds to multiple targets without even moving or putting themselves anywhere near a threat.
If we wanted to break the class, we could easily do so by multi-classing and it would be perfectly legal. That's not our goal. The goal is to get the Hexblade to use the Hexblade, not only because he has story reasons for doing so, but because it is also the optimum attack.
Pact of the Blade rules override Hexblade weapons restrictions, and PB has no problem summoning greatswords. Characters can cast spells with a free hand while carrying a two handed weapon, it just needs 2H to swing... and with Improved Pact Weapon you an even use it as a focus. Between that and counting repelling blast as somehow creating damage dice (?), I’m starting to think you just don’t particularly understand how the warlock features at play already work. Like I said, you might find a broader audience and better information discussing the mechanics, strengths, and weaknesses in a rule forum rather than homebrew. Just my two cents.
The added damage dice is fall damage. Fall damage SHOULD be applied to anything that falls more than 10 feet. If you hit people with Eldritch Blast and push them into a wall, add a d6 of damage if your DM is following the rules as written. If he isn't applying that damage, he is homebrewing his own rules and nerfing you. This is optimum calculation not most likely.
PLEASE READ MY OTHER COMMENTS!! Thank you.
I'll quote myself yet again for clarification on the greatsword.
"So you can get a greatsword!!
Yes, at level 3, if you choose Pact of the Blade. However, this destroys your action economy because you have to PUT DOWN THE WEAPON to cast Hex, and then pick it back up again. You need War Caster to overcome this.
This means that you've now used 5 invocations and one feat to outdo the damage a cantrip does by 1 point for two, maybe three, turns, using all your spell slots and taking an entire turn to set up. Congrats. That's awful."
You have 1 more point of damage on average with a summoned Greatsword than you do with a cantrip and TWO invocation slots.
Again let's weigh the cost of that 1 point of damage.
Invocations:
Lifedrinker, Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite. Four invocations plus if you want to have a long range Eldritch Blast for encounters that are too far way for Melee, add two more invocations. This leaves you with TWO invocations to spare, Maddening Hex and Relentless hex are often very tempting options. Many of those invocations are flavor, and you get none of those if you optimize a Hexblade, whereas a Hexblade just content on not using his sword only loses 1 point on average per round and gets to have SIX more invocations.
Feats:
One feat, War Caster. This is instead of ability scores btw, so through the leveling process, you end up with less Charisma than the guy who is content on being a Hexblade who uses only Eldritch Blast. There goes your damage advantage for 7 levels. Since first level is the only level you do more damage in, and 8th level is the next time you get an ability increase.
Oh, and on your second ability score, you have to choose between buffing your charisma and having 300 ft range on Eldritch Blast, something that HexBlast over there may choose, giving him not only damage, but ranged advantage as well. If you want to maintain your long range/close range build, you'll pick another feat at this level.
There you go, the cost of doing better than Eldritch blast is too high for the Hexblade, making what I said earlier still true...
The optimum choice for a Hexblade, without multi-classing, rules as written, is to cast Eldritch Blast instead of investing so much into buffing Melee to catch up to that spell. I'm sick and tired of restating this over and over. Please read my other comments for more information. Also, it's poor sport to assume someone doesn't understand things as much as you do.
Go criticize the wizard, that class deserves it way more. I don't care for your ideas of where I should post.
Citation to where it says being pushed into a wall deals fall damage? To my knowledge, that is not a rule found anywhere in PHB or DMG. Fall damage is from falling in 10 foot increments, not from being pushed into obstacles, that would be a house rule (and not a very well balanced one).
Requoting yourself misapplying a rule is not as persuasive as you think it is. A character with a Two-Handed weapon is not required to "put down" their weapon to have a free hand to cast a spell, since they only need to have two hands on the weapon while making an attack. You don't need Warcaster to overcome that, you need Warcaster to overcome holding a sword and a shield in both hands (and A) you don't need that if you have Improved Pact Weapon transforming that sword into a spell focus, and B)all Warlocks using Hex want Warcaster anyway, so I don't see why you would count Warcaster against a Hexblade?).
(Using oversimplified averages rounded down to whole numbers for easier reading,) Eldritch Blast with one invocation (Agonizing Blast) and max CHA does an average of either 10, 20, 30, or 40 damage per round depending on how many blasts they get at their tier. A hexblade can bump that up to 12, 26, 42, or 64 against one creature per encounter by putting their class curse on the target, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the encounter until 14th level+ with Master of Hexes letting it jump creatures on a kill. With Hex up also, that optimum average damage against a single target can be as high as 15, 32, 51, or 76 depending on tier. Pact choice is largely irrelevant, as none of the Pacts provide any direct benefit to Eldritch Blast. There are no shortage of invocations to buff EB or hexing/cursing, but none are strictly necessary or relevant to damage like Agonizing Blast is. There are no feats that will improve this damage.
A Hexblade that leans into melee with Pact of the Blade is not far off with damage right out of the gate at level 1. Instead of Agonizing Blast being a required Invocation at 2, Thirsting Blade is instead necessary at 5 if you aren't multiclassing to pick up Extra Attack a different way. With max CHA, a one-handed Hexblade does an average of 9 or 18 damage depending on tier (under 5 or over 5), while a two-handed Hexbalde does an average of 11 or 22 (I'm going to focus on 2H hexblade above level 5 to simplify readibility from here on out). Against a single target, that can be bumped up in the 5th-level-and-over tiers (levels 5, 11, 17) to 28/30/34 depending on tier. With Hex up, that optimum average damage against a single target can be as high as 31/33/37 depending on tier. But there are several ways to catch up, with both additional Invocations and feats. Great Weapon Master puts us up to 48/50/54, and is a feat that melee 2H weapon users want anyway. Lifedrinker at level 12+ puts us up to [48]/60/64. Improved Pact Weapon brings us up to 50/62/66, but a real magic weapon of +2 quality or other special qualities would be even better. What we see emerge is that the 2H Hexblade massively outperforms the EB user in tiers two (EB 32, 2H 50) and three (EB 51, 2H 62), and only starts to fall off in the final tier at level 17+ (EB 76, 2H 66).
We aren't talking about "5 invocations," a melee Hexblade-Pact of the Blade with a Greatsword can outperform an Eldritch Blast user with two or three invocations (Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker required, Improved Pact Weapon only needed if you don't have a magic sword or want to use your sword as a focus) and one feat (Great Weapon Master). A competent race choice for your Hexblade means you only need 1 and 1/2 feats to max your CHA anyway, so using one of your three feats for GWM (another for Warcaster, another for Resilient (CON) or for Heavily Armored or Medium Armor Master would be my advice) is not a particularly scary proposition. Yes, an EB lock is freer to pick a different fifth feat/ASI (they'll still want Warcaster and Resilient (CON), methinks), and has one or two more invocations to fritter away (but they'll probably spend them buffing their EB with Eldritch Spear and Repelling Blast anyway, so not really). Either way, your lock is going to be investing 2-3 of their invocations into their preferred attack mode, and using a couple of their feats on ASI and a couple of their feats on Warcaster and Resilient. The only real advantage an EB lock has over a melee Hexblade is, the Hexblade needs to be a Pact of the Blade to get Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, while the EB lock can be a different Pact if that interests them (and Tome is very cool!). Well that, and the fact that the EB lock is a ranged attacker... but a player that picks a Hexblade - Pact of the Blade is already deciding they want to be a melee character, not attacking at range is not really a drawback in that scenario.
You're dancing around trying to tell me that Hexblade must be balanced against high damage classes because it's a DPR striker class, but then you're also telling me that my showing you that melee Hexblades do more damage than EB Locks isn't relevant because this is "not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage." You either care about damage (in which case the melee pure hexblade does more than the melee pure EB lock), or you don't care about damage (in which case the melee hexblade is definitely on par with other melee classes like Barbarian and Ranger and Bard). Either way, your rewrite of the class seems like its more about you wanting to rewrite the class than about any real weakness of hexblades, which is fine! Homebrew is fun! But the title of this thread suggests that you don't really understand how Hexblades or their toolkit work, because they certainly do not "need" it.
"Citation to where it says being pushed into a wall deals fall damage? To my knowledge, that is not a rule found anywhere in PHB or DMG. Fall damage is from falling in 10 foot increments, not from being pushed into obstacles, that would be a house rule (and not a very well balanced one)."
Citation is science and the definition of the word Repelling. (Although with the FIND TRAPS spell, definitions mean nothing to DnD) Repelling Blast FLINGS YOU 10 feet. You are hit by something, thrown off the ground, fly through the air, and land... against a wall. My DM interprets it that way, and I've seen many other DMs do the same thing. Not sure how common it is, but I accounted for it because I've seen it exist. Just a cursory look at the amount of force it would take to do that versus just falling 10 feet, which sometimes won't even hurt you in real life, reveals that if someone hits a wall because something flung them against it, they should take damage on impact. The 10 foot increment is the REAL citation. Remember, the force of impact is working AGAINST gravity, not with it, so the impact and speed would require MUCH more force than just falling.
I've seen it ruled both ways. Which is why I accounted for both. 80 DPR is what you get when you don't account for that. I stated that in an earlier comment. You didn't read my comments. That's why I constantly have to quote myself.
"What we see emerge is that the 2H Hexblade massively outperforms the EB user in tiers two (EB 32, 2H 50) and three (EB 51, 2H 62), and only starts to fall off in the final tier at level 17+ (EB 76, 2H 66)."
Yes. That is what we're trying to fix.
"A competent race choice for your Hexblade"
No. This needs to be attainable by class alone.
"You're dancing around trying to tell me that Hexblade must be balanced against high damage classes because it's a DPR striker class, but then you're also telling me that my showing you that melee Hexblades do more damage than EB Locks isn't relevant because this is "not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage.""
What it's about is incentives. I want the average player to be incentivized to use their Hexblade, not rely on Eldritch Blast. This requires that Damage output be WORTH THE COST of investing into it. So if you put time, class, invocations into it, then the damage output should be equivalent to the investment cost. You should become a DPR Striker Class. Why invest so much into damage when you can cast invisibility at will? Or see through 120 feet of magical darkness? Damage is important, but it is not the reason for the changes. They do increase damage, but only enough to incentivize. I'm trying very hard not to break the game with it. I'm also not Kell_Swiftfire... so I'm not actually asking for his overhaul. I have my own and I like the overall idea. Read my comments. 1 point of damage on average, or even 13 points, isn't enough of a difference to me for the investment. That much effort should put you on par with a DPR Striker in my opinion, which does about 20-30 more points of damage on average. Again, not above, but on par. Another incentive is that the role-playing has to be good. Which is why I proposed changing the Eldritch Overcharge level 6 feature instead of the Accursed Specter. It's objectively worse, but I like the flavor of the roleplaying better. Again, it is not about damage, rather it is about making this class about a relationship the player has with a sentient sword.
"(in which case the melee hexblade is definitely on par with other melee classeslike Barbarian and Ranger and Bard)"
Have you ever played a Bard? Bard's are full casters. They have magical secrets. They do something like 1000 damage every 6 rounds at level 20 if you spec them right. They aren't melee classes... The Blade Bard is the closest. I played two Bards, a Lore Bard, and a Blade Bard. The Lore Bard by far has the highest damage output of any class I've ever played, and the Blade Bard was fun, but nerfed in melee because the class is still a FULL CASTER CLASS. Not a melee class. Oh boy. Talk about not knowing how classes work. Jeez. Please, memorize this.
Bards are full casters.
"Either way, your rewrite of the class seems like its more about you wanting to rewrite the class than about any real weakness of hexblades, which is fine! Homebrew is fun! But the title of this thread suggests that you don't really understand how Hexblades or their toolkit work, because they certainly do not "need" it."
I am not Kell_Swiftfire. This is my rewrite.
Thirsting Blade does a third attack at level 11.
Eldritch Smite has proficiency slots and does not use spell slots. They regenerate on a long rest.
Lifedrinker heals half your CHA modifier rounded up.
At level 6, instead of getting Accursed Specter, the Hexblade gets...
Eldritch OverCharge.
Once a day, for one minute, the player can add 3d6 necrotic, cold, lightning, thunder, fire, or psychic damage to one attack per turn. If they do this they take half of the damage added. They may choose to avoid the damage by making a DC 15 Charisma Save. If they fail, they take 3d6 force damage, are flung ten feet back, and if they hit a wall, they take another 1d6 damage. They land prone. Once this happens the effect ends automatically.
That's my entire overhaul. I've just added one extra attack to increase damage to match with Eldritch Blast and that is really it as far as damage goes. The rest of the damage overhauls are what you'd regularly get.
Also, yes, this is Homebrew... that's why it is in the Homebrew section.
If doing more damage with a blade than with EB is not already sufficient "incentive" to use their blade, then I don't know why piling even more damage onto the equation is. Hexblades are already quite popular.
TrustyPeaches
If that is the case, then Blastlocks need to be nerfed, because not only do they get similar damage to the fighter at-will in the PHB, they also get spells up to ninth level AND MORE evocations, as well as a feature from their subclass.
Also, feats, magic items, spells, etc... are accounted for in the calculations I've been doing.
782 damage over 6 rounds for a fighter.
792 damage over 6 rounds for Kriegehexe Lite Hexblade.
The difference is 10 damage over 6 rounds at level 20. That's like 1.66 more damage per round. They do similar damage all they way up through the levels EXCEPT FOR LEVELS 17-19. So for two levels, the Warlock has better at will damage by a good margin.
The fighter also has a ton more feats. Which I equate to spells. So that's handled. They do less, but most of them are always on and don't need a recharge ever. Not to mention the Warlock has an extremely limited pool of spells to choose from and an extremely limited use of spells 6th levels and higher.
So the only real difference is levels 17-19. So what's the damage difference there?
(11d6(50) + 2d4(6) + 171) = 227 for the first round.
(6d6(27) + 1d4(3) + 57) = 87 for subsequent rounds.
662 damage for 6 rounds. Versus 792. So a difference of over 100 damage for two levels.
If you want my reasoning for this calculation, read my other comments.
I'm going to continue to say that I agree with the sentiment, but I still think this needs to be nerfed a bit.
Actually, mathematically this doesn't add up.
Hexblade's with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast get 4 attacks before Fighters anyway, and do 4d10+20 damage at that level. I've run the math for these types of changes compare with Ranger (Colossus Hunter or whatever), Rogue Assassin, Eldritch Knight, and all the other Warlock Subclasses.
This build does slightly more damage than Eldritch Knight but has less armor (which only seems fair as this build does less damage than Assassins and assassins have less survivability).
Several people have mentioned that Warlock itself may be broken which may be true. But I don't think this in any way makes Hexblades "more" broken as this build still requires more investment than the meme EB+AB combo.
Again, mathematically, you're doing slightly more damage than a Eldritch Knight, under one set of circumstances (investing 100% into damage amongst Pact/Invocation options), and has less survivability via HP/armor.
It's about as reasonably balanced as you could hope for :)
Fell Smite: Actually, hexblades explicitly cannot use two-handed melee weapons. Fell Smite is to make it so Hexblades have a reason to use their primary class feature as opposed to ditching it completely for Eldritch Blast.
Improved Pact Weapon: Actually no, go back and read my text. You can conjure it out of nothing for a bonus action, and you can 'mold' it for free once per turn. This means you could change it once per turn... but not back and forth for those shenanigans.
Thirsting Blade Enhancement: Eldritch Blast gives Warlocks 4 attacks before fighters without an investment (no invocation, class feature, nada.) Thirsting Blade Enhanced requires a Subclass (Hexblade), Pact (Pact of the Blade) Invocation Slot (Thirsting Blade) AND 17 levels exclusively in Warlock to get this. This constitutes enormous investment, and mathematically, without this change, Hexblades do pitiful damage compared to other Warlocks, Fighters, Rogues, Rangers (yup, I've checked em all).
So I hear your concerns but respectfully find them invalid for the reasons mentioned above :)
Actually your math adds up almost identically to mine --Yay math! :D The express purpose was to give the Krieghexe Light comparable/slightly superior damage to Fighters (Eldritch Knight as template).
The reasoning being that Eldritch Knights have a larger HP pool and better armor, and hence, Krieghexen ought to do better damage. Following this logic, I also took care to make sure Krieghexe lite does less damage than Rogues, as rogues have less armor/health still :)
Hey buddy! Good to see ya in the comments again! :) --Thanks, I like the Fell Smite rework a lot better too.
Actually, in terms of Accursed Specter, I've been thinking something similar. It's cool thematically but... I agree it sort of lacks 'synergy' with the class as a whole. I have an interesting idea that I'm toying with that I'm actually currently using for my Enhanced Lifedrinker, but may strip out and fully 'replace' the 6th level feature with.
OOOOOHHH you know what?? What if we:
Idk. Just seems like it would be awesome to turn a cool/maybe out of place feature into an awesome upgrade of a single invocation. Something to play around with for sure before Kreighexe Full
Kell_Swiftfire
Oh that is so much better.
Armor of hexes at level 6? That is good. I like that change.
Recharging 1 Eldritch Smite on a short rest at level 12... hmmm... why not recharge them all? That would not be overpowered at level 12, but only one does make it more interesting.
Here's the alternative to a fourth attack. I like the idea thematically about changing the damage type, but what if you just added 3d6(9) of necrotic, force, fire, thunder, lightning, psychic or cold (thematically appropriate, you wouldn't do radiant and it has to be magical in nature.) for one minute to one attack per turn once a day? (Yes, this is balanced because that is the same damage the Specter does, and it is almost literally the same thing that the specter does, without the stupidity of needing to resurrect someone as a specter.). Like an overcharge ability? The thing is, you also take half that damage (This makes up for the requirement of having to kill someone to obtain this power.) as well because the Hexblade is literally exploding with magic. This would make the multiple self-healing factors you have actually a little more important. This also would not be a good thing at level 12... it'd be too weak of an improvement at that point. So this would be a good level 6 replacement for the Accursed Specter but it would not work with Armor of Hexes at level 6. So you'd have to just straight up use this and forget the rest of your improvements. Might not be good for your build but I think I am going to add this to my build.
+2 magical weapons... oh boy. So... did you know that with pact weapon, you choose a weapon you already have and make it a pact weapon? So, a holy avenger could be a pact weapon. That would only be good for your temporary ranged weapons that you give to other people really, so it's not really that good if you think about it. Unless your DM is a total flopperdoodle when it comes to giving out magic items, then it is actually amazing.
Oooo I do love that new Lifedrinker. Yes that does make up for the extra healing a bit and feels a lot more... thematic. Very good.
Warpath's Lifedrinker: You now add your half your Charisma mod rounded up to HIT as well. Basically gives you an extra +3 to Hit. Makes your hits more precise, doesn't add extra damage. That's how I would improve that.
So this is the current build I got to playtest, I call it Improved Hexblade. (I'm going to add my overcharge ability to it, but I did not get to playtest that feature. I also will turn Eldritch Smite back into an invocation. I will playtest both builds and see which one I like better.)
Improved Hexblade just gets rid of the Level 6 ability and replaces it with Eldritch Smite based on Proficiency. Because you start out with at 6th level with this, the initial damage is 3d8, and it adds 1d8 at level 7, and 1d8 at level 9. It's exactly the same as the invocation, except with proficiency slots, so basically I just traded out the level 6 ability with an invocation.
That gives you one more invocation, and you achieve the status of Short range / long range at-will damage at lot sooner in build.
Even just one extra invocation is super powerful. Now your Eldritch Blasts send them flying back ten feet and your melee attacks make them go prone twice per long rest at level 6 when you get it, and immediately the next level it becomes three times per short rest.
I also got the chance to playtest this build at level 7.
PLAYTEST RESULTS!!!
I did a playtest with this build using two person DnD, my wife controlled the monsters, I controlled the PCs. (I was testing two other builds at the same time.) At one point, I rolled really well and my Improved Hexblade destroyed a monster with 65 health and no damage in one turn at level 7. I did a total of 57 damage with one swing. Take in mind, this is not damage that would be unachievable by a normal hexblade. I used one normal Eldritch Smite, Two Hexes, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Hexblade Improved Pact Weapon, and thirsting blade. (How did I get the hexes in one turn you ask? Well I killed an enemy beforehand and used a bonus action on that turn to move to spell to the new healthy target. Then I cast Hexblade's curse on the new target as a bonus action on the following turn (had not used it yet).) Eldritch Smite, the regular version, IS NOT A BONUS ACTION OR A SPELL. You can use it when you hit with an attack.)
None of those things are something the improvements added. The only thing that changed is that afterwards I had used two Hexblade Smite slots (My name for it) and still had my regular spells available so if I continued with hitting with Eldritch Smite, I would have run out and had to CHANGE MY ENTIRE STRATEGY for the rest of the day. After you run out of Eldritch Smites based on Proficiency, your strategy now has to change. You then go back to Eldritch Blast, relying on AB + RB(fall damage) and hexes to do an extra 2d6(3) + 9 or 12 damage, roughly 28 damage per EB or casting one of your Pact Spell Slots. Remember that Warlocks can cast spells? Now you'll actually use them.
You get a total of about five or six(rod of the pact keeper) turns of casting spells or Eldritch Smite at level 7 before you become a Blastlock again with the improvements. So if you have two encounters per day (typical adventure), you'll only spend half of that session as a blastlock or none if you get a short rest... This FEELS LIKE a TON more variety than regular Hexblades. I love the simple change of making Eldritch Smite have its own slots a ton. That is probably one of the best ideas for a warlock I have heard of.
Anyways, keep on trucking, I can't wait to see your final build.
This has some really interesting stuff. I quite like your idea of somehow 'merging' specter's damage into your Hexblade for one minute, once a day, or something to that effect. Technically, this is actually weaker than the Specter, as the Specter lasts for 24 hours, and if managed properly, could survive several fights (more than just 1 minute, for sure), but I still like it being 'baked in' to your weapon, as opposed to... a sorta there pet kinda.
Oh, and the reason the Upgraded Eldritch Smite at Level 12 only recharged 1 Eldritch Smite on short rest, is that at level 12, you already get 4 charges a day, so even with 2 short rests in a day, you are now getting 12 charges of 5d8 damage each which I think put it over the top. That said, maybe it would be better worded/balanced as "You regain up to half (rounded down) of your expended Eldritch Smite charges on a short rest. This would mean if you burned all 4 charges, you would regain 2, and if you'd burned 2-3, you'd regain 1.
Here's a thought for a custom invocation I've been toying with (though I tend to avoid custom invocations as... they're harder to balance than just a single subclass, ironically), but maybe it would do much better as a replacement feature. Combined with your Hexblade's Smite, Feature, I think it's quite good, thematic, and where Hexblade's Smite is technically weaker than the Specter, this gives you just a bit more utilitiy to compensate.
Krieghexe's Smite: At level 6, you receive the following benefits
-You gain Eldritch Smite as a free invocation (does not count against your invocation limit), and you may use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus each day. If you already have Eldritch Smite, it becomes Krieghexe's Smite, and you may choose another Invocation to fill your now-empty invocation slot.
-You may cast Hex at will, without expending written or material components, and it no longer requires concentration for you. You may still only apply this spell to one creature at a time, and casting it on a new creature removes its effects from a previous creature.
Hex at will I’d reserve for level 14. You pretty much get that anyways when the spell reaches third level, and let’s be honest, if a dm uses the 8 hour limit against you in the first place, they have something against you. As a DM I do think you need that leeway though. Just add that to Master of Hexes and I think that would be good.
Extra Invocations - That’s great, I experimented with the idea of just getting rid of the level 6 ability and having extra invocations. I like that build better than the original Hexblade with just that adjustment, thirsting blade improvements, and Eldritch Smite have proficiency slots.
I made my Eldritch Overcharge technically worse on purpose. The reason I did that is because it’s going to be really hard to get that ability past a dm. It’s too flashy for most dms I know. They get mad at power very easily, even if it is the exact same power the base classes have already. I also added a possibility that your weapon could explode in your face, just to give the dms something against that ability and my dm STILL said no to it.
After all this talk and research and trying to mitigate the abilities so that it is not overpowered, I’ve realized that home brew has a big problem with it.
Even if you change the classes how you want to make them more thematic, balanced, or less underpowered, your DM can just say no to it, so you almost never benefit from the changes you made if you made them yourself. That’s extremely frustrating.
Yeah, I agree, it can be a big pain.
My first play with a Hexblade, the DM outright banned the 'summon weapon' feature, stating it was OP to be able to summon a melee weapon at will so that was just a nope period. Meanwhile, her husband had a multi-classed Ranger/Assassin Hybrid with like +12 to hit at an average 30 damage per round at level 4/5. All just as legal, but somehow, the summon weapon feature was OP.
Though I have been a DM for most of my campaigns now for years, in my current one, I simply showed my DM a spreadsheet (she also knows I've DM'd a long time) showing the damage outputs at each level for Warlock, Hexblade, Eldritch Knight, Ranger (Hunter-Colossus Slayer), Rogue (Assassin), and how atrocious Hexblade damage as time goes on.
I frankly would consider making something similar, and showing your DM how you're not trying to 'overpower' your character. You're simply trying to make it viable compared, specifically, to other Warlocks.
Also, while I don't recommend this often, in this case, to highlight it, you could always do what I did and say 'and if that doesn't work... I can always jump my character off a cliff, roll a blast-lock with Armor of Shadows, reskin EB as an 'arcane bow' and.... legally, you can't stop me. --I'll be much more overpowered than what I'm proposing now anyway, but I don't want to do that, I want something fun and balanced.
That, coupled with my spreadsheet, my DM was basically like 'alright fair enough, tweak what you think you need to, and if it seems crazy later, we'll adjust as needed. Fair?'
At the end of the day.... hopefully.... math and numbers prevail over fear and unfounded trepidation.
P.S. Good news, just finished running the most robust stat analysis I've done yet across 8 subclasses and 12 combat scenarios. Using it, I was able to dial in level-specific tweaks to the Krieghexe that made it just about perfectly balanced. In a nutshell, coming very soon:
New/Final Krieghexe Base Damage Comparison: (all other classes tested with a weapon with 1d8 weapon --longsword, rapier, etc)
Excited to publish it here soon! :)
To fix the Hexblade, you need to fix the Warlock.
I'll never say it enough, but 4 spell slots at lvl18 is a freakin joke, no matter they recharge on short rests, if you end up ina party that doesn't take those, you are screwed over...
It should be 6 or 8 slots, thats #1.
Also to fix the Hexblade there's a few things that can be done.
-Drop Accursed Specter at lvl6 and change it for the Extra attack feature at level 5, College of Swords BArds get the extra attack at lvl5/6, without any special consideration,so an Hexblade should not use one of his invocations for this.
Also Accursed Specter has no Synergies with ANY of the classes features, doesn't scale and while its Life drain attack can be interesting, the fact that it doesn't scale mean his DC10 save on this attack is ridiculously easy to counter at higher levels.
-Change Thirsting Blade invocation, into "Eldritch Strike- When you take the attack action with the extra attack feature, you can exchange One of your attacks to cast a melee spell Cantrip instead, the Melee spell cantrip must use your Hex/Pact Weapon.
-Add a new Invocation/Feature at higher levels(12+) "Dark Reaper- Once per long rest, when you bring a creature to 0HP with your Hex/Pact Weapon, you can sacrifice its Soul to your Patron, you regain One expanded Pact magic Slot"
-Add the Steel Wind Strike and Destruction Wave spells to the Hexblade Spell list ,also replace Elemental Weapon with Haste.
-Improved Pact Weapon Invocation that allows to Summon the Pact Weapon as a bonus action is a good idea.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Not bad thoughts! Not bad at all! I quite like these, particularly the Dark Reaper concept (Eldritch Strike is very interesting as well).
I just finished the Krieghexe math for damage output, but it's still got a few loose ends for utility/thematic balance, and good ideas are always welcome, no matter the stage of development. :)
I just might have to look to see how I can work some of these in in a balanced way...
I'd recommend taking the question of Hexblade vs. any other warlock to Tips and Tricks, because I think your assumptions are flawed, but this isn't going to get much traction in Homebrew. A non-Hex EB lock is pretty much capped at 5d10+25+5d6 (average 70) per round as a pure Warlock with one invocation investment, or at twice that if multi'd with a Sorcerer (quickened EB + regular EB), or can do three times that once if multi'd with a Sorcerer and with a Fighter (EB + Action Surge EB + Quickened EB). A Hexblade that is focused on EB will objectively do more damage with the same tricks, because they can also add another 6 damage per bolt from the HB Curse, and crit on 19's. So right off the bat, your premise is really more about Bladelocks than it is about Hexblades, because Hexblades are the best EB users of all the Warlocks.
So we've established that a pure Hexblade focused on EB can do 76 per round with one invocation, a sorc-hexblade can do 152 per round for several rounds, and a sorc-hexblade-fighter can do 228 for at least one round. Pretty good. What can a Hexblade focused on melee do?
A pure Hexblade that's a Pact of the Blade can get up to two attacks with one invocation, and can use a Greatsword. That's only 4d6+10+2d6+12 (average 43) per round. Seems a bit behind EB... but if you add on Lifedrinker as a second invocation there's another +10 damage, and Improved Pact Weapon for another +2, we're up to 55, starting to close the gap! Great Weapon Master can be taken as a feat, to bump this up to +10 damage per hit, and now we're at average 75 damage per round, pretty much equal with the Hexblade EB and superior to the non-Hexblade EB build, although admittedly we are limited by melee range, and a lower to-hit bonus. But then, we have the ability to be wielding a magic weapon (does not stack with Improved Pact Weapon, drop that invocation if a magic weapon is available), which quite possible could bump this even higher or provide additional effects. And lets not forget Eldritch Smite... you may only potentially get that once per encounter if your other slot has been taken up by Hex, but another 6d8 (average 27, or can be held for a crit for average 54) can jump you up quite a bit.
So melee Hexblade is equal to or superior to EB Hexblade for raw damage, and EB Hexblade is superior to EB otherlock. But what about the sorcerer/fighter multiclass options that bump EB even higher?
A melee Hexblade is less free to multiclass than an EB Hexblade, because instead of only needing one cantrip and one level 2 invocation, it may be important to stick Warlock through 12th level for Lifedrinker, or 5th level for Eldritch Smite or Thirsting Blade. But that still leaves at least 8 levels of Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, or Ranger to buff yourself further. Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7 will pick you up Divine Smite (2d8 or 3d8 after a confirmed hit) and Aura of Hate for another static +5/hit (+10/round). Unfortunately competes with Fighter 2+ for Action Surge, which may actually be superior with Battlemaster (bonus d8's and advantage generation) or Eldritch Knight (sub a Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade in for one of your two melee attacks/round). Fighter is also useful for picking up Great Weapon fighting style, which will let you reroll all the 1's and 2's on a melee attack (whether its weapon damage die, hex die, or other), a nifty bump that will be usually worth at least a few extra damage per round. Rogue probably isn't worth using a smaller weapon, unless the Revived is an option and you have high Dexterity, but a few of the Ranger subclasses could be decent to generate some extra attacks or d8's of damage, if you can spare a 13 wisdom (certainly doable since a Hexblade only needs middling Dexterity, or even no Dexterity at all if you lean into Heavy Armor by starting as a Fighter or Paladin or using a feat). A College of Whispers Bard is probably the most effective dps of the bard trades, and could again do some great synergy with a Paladin's smites, if you weren't going to be an Oathbreaker and take Paladin all the way to 7.
Of these options, I think that the Hex 12/Oathbreaker 7/Fighter 1 spikes the highest (stacking Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite on top of a crit, for a total of 4d6+2d6+6d8+12d8+10+5+5+6+1, reroll 1's and 2's, probably around 150ish for a single hit), but a Hex 12/Hunter 3/Battlemaster 5 or a Hex 12/EK 8 will probably do more consistent round-to-round damage by taking more attacks or replacing one attack per round with a cantrip. It's enough to reach sorc-lock levels for sure... but again, with the caveat that you're stuck in melee, have a lower to-hit from GWM, aren't able to split up your damage to as many targets as EB allows, and is a bit 'tighter' of a build to plot out.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Again, the stated goal of this rework is not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage.
It's to get a Bladelock to use their blade.
I'll add that we are trying to avoid multi-classing. Or at least I am.
We just want the classes name to make sense. That is all. At least that is all I'm trying to do with my reworks.
If its just to make a Pact of the Blade Hexblade use their blade, I am confident that they already do so. A run-of-the-mill Hexblade - Pact of the Blade character can easily afford an AC of 19 with a shield in Medium armor, or 20 with a single feat investment (either Heavily Armored or Medium Armor Master would work depending on their stats) or with a high Dex in Mage Armor. Warcaster is a feat that most warlocks want anyway (to keep a high level Hex up for all or most of the day), and provides extra benefits to a warlock willing to get into melee range. 1d8+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1 (Longsword, avg. 25), or 2d6+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1+10 (Greatsword, avg. 37.5) twice per round (50 or 75 per round total) is more than a Barbarian or melee Ranger is likely to be doing, even without getting into Eldritch Smite. Hexblade HP is decently tanky (the difference between a d8 and a d10 hit die is neligible), and I don't see that they fall behind other "normal" melee characters that aren't Fighters or Rogues or Paladins specializing in huge DPR.
The easiest way to make a Hexblade use his sword as a DM? Give him a cool magic sword he's excited to use, don't rewrite his class features.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread. This is how much damage a hexblade does with Eldritch Blast. I've ran the math several times.
"EB + AB + RB
(4d10(20) + 8d6(24) + 48)
92 on average.
80 on average if your dm thinks fall damage is stupid."
What features are you using to get that damage?
Eldritch Blast
Agonizing Blast
Repelling Blast
Hex
Hexblade's Curse
That's it.
Now I'll quote you just now.
"1d8+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1 (Longsword, avg. 25), or 2d6+1d6+5+5+(2-6 prof)+1+10 (Greatsword, avg. 37.5) twice per round (50 or 75 per round total)"
Let's Add Eldritch Smite for fun.
50 + 4d8(18) = 68
75 + 4d8(18) = 93 (Only if you have a Greatsword.)
Are Greatswords allowed to be hexblades?
Nope. Not at first.
Hex Warrior
At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.
The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.
So you can get a greatsword!!
Yes, at level 3, if you choose Pact of the Blade. However, this destroys your action economy because you have to PUT DOWN THE WEAPON to cast Hex, and then pick it back up again. You need War Caster to overcome this.
This means that you've now used 5 invocations and one feat to outdo the damage a cantrip does by 1 point for two, maybe three, turns, using all your spell slots and taking an entire turn to set up. Congrats. That's awful.
Objections
"and I don't see that they fall behind other "normal" melee characters that aren't Fighters or Rogues or Paladins specializing in huge DPR."
They aren't normal melee characters, they specialize in DPR. There are numerous invocations that prove that, invocations are a valuable resource that give the Warlock Flavor. Fighters do 782 damage every 6 rounds. I did the math for this earlier, read my comments. Fighters and Assassin Rogues are the only things that are valid comparisons because they are the only classes that actually specialize in DPR and almost nothing else.
But the spells the Hexblade gets...
Are once a day powers, or one of four to five spell slots that end at 5th level. The highest damage you can do with spells as far as the Warlock goes is finger of death, which casts at 7th level, and you can only do it if you sacrifice an Eldritch Smite, which when you compare finger of death to a weapon attack with Eldritch Smite, it does LESS damage.
7d8(23) + 30 = 53 on average for Finger of Death
50 + 4d8(18) = 68 on average for Eldritch Smite.
And then the highest 9th level spell is Psychic Scream
14d6(49) damage on average.
The conclusion
Let's go with the lowest numbers.
Eldritch Blast at level 20 = 80 damage per round.
Hexblade Melee attack at level 20 = 68 damage per round.
The optimum choice for at-will damage for a Hexblade at level 20 and every level besides level 1 is Eldritch Blast.
This is objectively true.
So to change this without multi-classing, WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE CLASS.
Please, read my earlier comments and stop trying to compare the Hexblade class to other martial fighters. That isn't a valid comparison. This is a spell-casting class that sacrifices spell slots for at-will damage. It's not a martial class.
This is like trying to compare melee spells to martial weapons. The comparison is asinine and disingenuous. I redirect you to my earlier comments where I directly compared Fighters to the reworked Hexblade. Also, if you are worried about DPS balancing, please go somewhere else. Your energy is better directed at Wizards, who do close to 1000 damage in six rounds to multiple targets without even moving or putting themselves anywhere near a threat.
If we wanted to break the class, we could easily do so by multi-classing and it would be perfectly legal. That's not our goal. The goal is to get the Hexblade to use the Hexblade, not only because he has story reasons for doing so, but because it is also the optimum attack.
Pact of the Blade rules override Hexblade weapons restrictions, and PB has no problem summoning greatswords. Characters can cast spells with a free hand while carrying a two handed weapon, it just needs 2H to swing... and with Improved Pact Weapon you an even use it as a focus. Between that and counting repelling blast as somehow creating damage dice (?), I’m starting to think you just don’t particularly understand how the warlock features at play already work. Like I said, you might find a broader audience and better information discussing the mechanics, strengths, and weaknesses in a rule forum rather than homebrew. Just my two cents.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The added damage dice is fall damage. Fall damage SHOULD be applied to anything that falls more than 10 feet. If you hit people with Eldritch Blast and push them into a wall, add a d6 of damage if your DM is following the rules as written. If he isn't applying that damage, he is homebrewing his own rules and nerfing you. This is optimum calculation not most likely.
PLEASE READ MY OTHER COMMENTS!! Thank you.
I'll quote myself yet again for clarification on the greatsword.
"So you can get a greatsword!!
Yes, at level 3, if you choose Pact of the Blade. However, this destroys your action economy because you have to PUT DOWN THE WEAPON to cast Hex, and then pick it back up again. You need War Caster to overcome this.
This means that you've now used 5 invocations and one feat to outdo the damage a cantrip does by 1 point for two, maybe three, turns, using all your spell slots and taking an entire turn to set up. Congrats. That's awful."
You have 1 more point of damage on average with a summoned Greatsword than you do with a cantrip and TWO invocation slots.
Again let's weigh the cost of that 1 point of damage.
Invocations:
Lifedrinker, Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite. Four invocations plus if you want to have a long range Eldritch Blast for encounters that are too far way for Melee, add two more invocations. This leaves you with TWO invocations to spare, Maddening Hex and Relentless hex are often very tempting options. Many of those invocations are flavor, and you get none of those if you optimize a Hexblade, whereas a Hexblade just content on not using his sword only loses 1 point on average per round and gets to have SIX more invocations.
Feats:
One feat, War Caster. This is instead of ability scores btw, so through the leveling process, you end up with less Charisma than the guy who is content on being a Hexblade who uses only Eldritch Blast. There goes your damage advantage for 7 levels. Since first level is the only level you do more damage in, and 8th level is the next time you get an ability increase.
Oh, and on your second ability score, you have to choose between buffing your charisma and having 300 ft range on Eldritch Blast, something that HexBlast over there may choose, giving him not only damage, but ranged advantage as well. If you want to maintain your long range/close range build, you'll pick another feat at this level.
There you go, the cost of doing better than Eldritch blast is too high for the Hexblade, making what I said earlier still true...
The optimum choice for a Hexblade, without multi-classing, rules as written, is to cast Eldritch Blast instead of investing so much into buffing Melee to catch up to that spell. I'm sick and tired of restating this over and over. Please read my other comments for more information. Also, it's poor sport to assume someone doesn't understand things as much as you do.
Go criticize the wizard, that class deserves it way more. I don't care for your ideas of where I should post.
Citation to where it says being pushed into a wall deals fall damage? To my knowledge, that is not a rule found anywhere in PHB or DMG. Fall damage is from falling in 10 foot increments, not from being pushed into obstacles, that would be a house rule (and not a very well balanced one).
Requoting yourself misapplying a rule is not as persuasive as you think it is. A character with a Two-Handed weapon is not required to "put down" their weapon to have a free hand to cast a spell, since they only need to have two hands on the weapon while making an attack. You don't need Warcaster to overcome that, you need Warcaster to overcome holding a sword and a shield in both hands (and A) you don't need that if you have Improved Pact Weapon transforming that sword into a spell focus, and B) all Warlocks using Hex want Warcaster anyway, so I don't see why you would count Warcaster against a Hexblade?).
(Using oversimplified averages rounded down to whole numbers for easier reading,) Eldritch Blast with one invocation (Agonizing Blast) and max CHA does an average of either 10, 20, 30, or 40 damage per round depending on how many blasts they get at their tier. A hexblade can bump that up to 12, 26, 42, or 64 against one creature per encounter by putting their class curse on the target, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the encounter until 14th level+ with Master of Hexes letting it jump creatures on a kill. With Hex up also, that optimum average damage against a single target can be as high as 15, 32, 51, or 76 depending on tier. Pact choice is largely irrelevant, as none of the Pacts provide any direct benefit to Eldritch Blast. There are no shortage of invocations to buff EB or hexing/cursing, but none are strictly necessary or relevant to damage like Agonizing Blast is. There are no feats that will improve this damage.
A Hexblade that leans into melee with Pact of the Blade is not far off with damage right out of the gate at level 1. Instead of Agonizing Blast being a required Invocation at 2, Thirsting Blade is instead necessary at 5 if you aren't multiclassing to pick up Extra Attack a different way. With max CHA, a one-handed Hexblade does an average of 9 or 18 damage depending on tier (under 5 or over 5), while a two-handed Hexbalde does an average of 11 or 22 (I'm going to focus on 2H hexblade above level 5 to simplify readibility from here on out). Against a single target, that can be bumped up in the 5th-level-and-over tiers (levels 5, 11, 17) to 28/30/34 depending on tier. With Hex up, that optimum average damage against a single target can be as high as 31/33/37 depending on tier. But there are several ways to catch up, with both additional Invocations and feats. Great Weapon Master puts us up to 48/50/54, and is a feat that melee 2H weapon users want anyway. Lifedrinker at level 12+ puts us up to [48]/60/64. Improved Pact Weapon brings us up to 50/62/66, but a real magic weapon of +2 quality or other special qualities would be even better. What we see emerge is that the 2H Hexblade massively outperforms the EB user in tiers two (EB 32, 2H 50) and three (EB 51, 2H 62), and only starts to fall off in the final tier at level 17+ (EB 76, 2H 66).
We aren't talking about "5 invocations," a melee Hexblade-Pact of the Blade with a Greatsword can outperform an Eldritch Blast user with two or three invocations (Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker required, Improved Pact Weapon only needed if you don't have a magic sword or want to use your sword as a focus) and one feat (Great Weapon Master). A competent race choice for your Hexblade means you only need 1 and 1/2 feats to max your CHA anyway, so using one of your three feats for GWM (another for Warcaster, another for Resilient (CON) or for Heavily Armored or Medium Armor Master would be my advice) is not a particularly scary proposition. Yes, an EB lock is freer to pick a different fifth feat/ASI (they'll still want Warcaster and Resilient (CON), methinks), and has one or two more invocations to fritter away (but they'll probably spend them buffing their EB with Eldritch Spear and Repelling Blast anyway, so not really). Either way, your lock is going to be investing 2-3 of their invocations into their preferred attack mode, and using a couple of their feats on ASI and a couple of their feats on Warcaster and Resilient. The only real advantage an EB lock has over a melee Hexblade is, the Hexblade needs to be a Pact of the Blade to get Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, while the EB lock can be a different Pact if that interests them (and Tome is very cool!). Well that, and the fact that the EB lock is a ranged attacker... but a player that picks a Hexblade - Pact of the Blade is already deciding they want to be a melee character, not attacking at range is not really a drawback in that scenario.
You're dancing around trying to tell me that Hexblade must be balanced against high damage classes because it's a DPR striker class, but then you're also telling me that my showing you that melee Hexblades do more damage than EB Locks isn't relevant because this is "not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage." You either care about damage (in which case the melee pure hexblade does more than the melee pure EB lock), or you don't care about damage (in which case the melee hexblade is definitely on par with other melee classes like Barbarian and Ranger and Bard). Either way, your rewrite of the class seems like its more about you wanting to rewrite the class than about any real weakness of hexblades, which is fine! Homebrew is fun! But the title of this thread suggests that you don't really understand how Hexblades or their toolkit work, because they certainly do not "need" it.
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"Citation to where it says being pushed into a wall deals fall damage? To my knowledge, that is not a rule found anywhere in PHB or DMG. Fall damage is from falling in 10 foot increments, not from being pushed into obstacles, that would be a house rule (and not a very well balanced one)."
Citation is science and the definition of the word Repelling. (Although with the FIND TRAPS spell, definitions mean nothing to DnD) Repelling Blast FLINGS YOU 10 feet. You are hit by something, thrown off the ground, fly through the air, and land... against a wall. My DM interprets it that way, and I've seen many other DMs do the same thing. Not sure how common it is, but I accounted for it because I've seen it exist. Just a cursory look at the amount of force it would take to do that versus just falling 10 feet, which sometimes won't even hurt you in real life, reveals that if someone hits a wall because something flung them against it, they should take damage on impact. The 10 foot increment is the REAL citation. Remember, the force of impact is working AGAINST gravity, not with it, so the impact and speed would require MUCH more force than just falling.
I've seen it ruled both ways. Which is why I accounted for both. 80 DPR is what you get when you don't account for that. I stated that in an earlier comment. You didn't read my comments. That's why I constantly have to quote myself.
"What we see emerge is that the 2H Hexblade massively outperforms the EB user in tiers two (EB 32, 2H 50) and three (EB 51, 2H 62), and only starts to fall off in the final tier at level 17+ (EB 76, 2H 66)."
Yes. That is what we're trying to fix.
"A competent race choice for your Hexblade"
No. This needs to be attainable by class alone.
"You're dancing around trying to tell me that Hexblade must be balanced against high damage classes because it's a DPR striker class, but then you're also telling me that my showing you that melee Hexblades do more damage than EB Locks isn't relevant because this is "not to do the most DPS melee damage or consistent damage.""
What it's about is incentives. I want the average player to be incentivized to use their Hexblade, not rely on Eldritch Blast. This requires that Damage output be WORTH THE COST of investing into it. So if you put time, class, invocations into it, then the damage output should be equivalent to the investment cost. You should become a DPR Striker Class. Why invest so much into damage when you can cast invisibility at will? Or see through 120 feet of magical darkness? Damage is important, but it is not the reason for the changes. They do increase damage, but only enough to incentivize. I'm trying very hard not to break the game with it. I'm also not Kell_Swiftfire... so I'm not actually asking for his overhaul. I have my own and I like the overall idea. Read my comments. 1 point of damage on average, or even 13 points, isn't enough of a difference to me for the investment. That much effort should put you on par with a DPR Striker in my opinion, which does about 20-30 more points of damage on average. Again, not above, but on par. Another incentive is that the role-playing has to be good. Which is why I proposed changing the Eldritch Overcharge level 6 feature instead of the Accursed Specter. It's objectively worse, but I like the flavor of the roleplaying better. Again, it is not about damage, rather it is about making this class about a relationship the player has with a sentient sword.
"(in which case the melee hexblade is definitely on par with other melee classes like Barbarian and Ranger and Bard)"
Have you ever played a Bard? Bard's are full casters. They have magical secrets. They do something like 1000 damage every 6 rounds at level 20 if you spec them right. They aren't melee classes... The Blade Bard is the closest. I played two Bards, a Lore Bard, and a Blade Bard. The Lore Bard by far has the highest damage output of any class I've ever played, and the Blade Bard was fun, but nerfed in melee because the class is still a FULL CASTER CLASS. Not a melee class. Oh boy. Talk about not knowing how classes work. Jeez. Please, memorize this.
Bards are full casters.
"Either way, your rewrite of the class seems like its more about you wanting to rewrite the class than about any real weakness of hexblades, which is fine! Homebrew is fun! But the title of this thread suggests that you don't really understand how Hexblades or their toolkit work, because they certainly do not "need" it."
I am not Kell_Swiftfire. This is my rewrite.
Thirsting Blade does a third attack at level 11.
Eldritch Smite has proficiency slots and does not use spell slots. They regenerate on a long rest.
Lifedrinker heals half your CHA modifier rounded up.
At level 6, instead of getting Accursed Specter, the Hexblade gets...
Eldritch OverCharge.
Once a day, for one minute, the player can add 3d6 necrotic, cold, lightning, thunder, fire, or psychic damage to one attack per turn. If they do this they take half of the damage added. They may choose to avoid the damage by making a DC 15 Charisma Save. If they fail, they take 3d6 force damage, are flung ten feet back, and if they hit a wall, they take another 1d6 damage. They land prone. Once this happens the effect ends automatically.
That's my entire overhaul. I've just added one extra attack to increase damage to match with Eldritch Blast and that is really it as far as damage goes. The rest of the damage overhauls are what you'd regularly get.
Also, yes, this is Homebrew... that's why it is in the Homebrew section.
If doing more damage with a blade than with EB is not already sufficient "incentive" to use their blade, then I don't know why piling even more damage onto the equation is. Hexblades are already quite popular.
Ah well, guess we just don't see eye to eye.
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