I've always had a bit of an issue with the point buy system because the range of 8-15 feels a little restrictive to me. 15 isn't a BAD stat, but it's not particularly impressive either, and I feel like a player should have a right to at least one really impressive stat to start with (not bound by racial bonuses). I also feel like 8 shouldn't be the bottom cut-off either because a truly bad stat can add as much to a character as it takes away. Basically, the current Point Buy system just feels like it encourages mediocrity, so as a thought, I figured I'd drop a slightly wider option for the Point Buy system that is essentially the same thing, but with a range of 6-17 for a little better variety.
Points to start: 33
6: +2 points 7: +1 point 8: STARTING POINT 9: -1 point 10: -1 point 11: -1 point 12: -1 point 13: -1 point 14: -2 points 15: -2 points 16: -2 points 17: -3 points
For comparison, current PB allows a player to theoretically min/max three stats to 15 while leaving three at 8. This version has the exact same capacity at three 17s and three 6s, with the new median allowing for 13s in five stats and a 14 in one - which I will say has a certain amount of appeal for someone that potentially wishes to play a "Jack-of-all-Trades" character - ensuring from the get-go that they have the ability to multi-class into anything as soon as they level up.
But more to the point, I just feel like this would be a bit more flexible for players and allow for more interesting variations in starting stats than the current system.
Example 1) 17, 15, 14, 11, 10, 7
Example 2) 16, 16, 15, 12, 9, 6
Example 3) 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 8 (This as a new Standard Array option it pretty interesting as well in my opinion)
The concept of what you're trying to do, to me, seems sound. I don't particularly like it, but let's focus on the feedback piece and not my personal opinion.
The early game is balanced around the characters NOT having 18s and 20s in stats. Level 1 characters shouldn't be on par with level 4/6(fighters)/8 characters stat-wise because some of that comes through the experience of earning it. Low Stats, while they can be interesting if role-played right can also be detrimental but if they get too low it can just be burdensome.
What I do is generally the following:
You get a +2 in one stat and a +1 to one stat, ignoring the normal racial bonuses. This allows anyone to be any race they want without having to always pick X because it has Y. Normal human is the exception since it gets +1 in all stats. This lets parties have more diverse makeups. If someone picks a race that isn't obviously very strong like Satyrs, Yuan-Ti etc I might bump up that other +1 to a +2 to encourage them to play a neat character. Not a min-max hero.
Standard point buy doesn't encourage mediocrity though. Using the SRD, let us look at the stats of a Guard. 13 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, 10 INT, 11 WIS, 10 CHA
Remember that Commoners are literally 10 across the board. The definition of average. So this Guard has a +1 STR, DEX, CON. Makes sense, he is a physical character. Remember those guards to normal every day people are STRONG. They aren't throwaway nobodies to commoners. Your guy strolls up with 15/17 STR and that Guard is now like WHOA, THAT DUDE IS STRONG. Commoners are generally THAT IS THE STRONGEST PERSON I'VE EVER SEEN in little villages and hamlets. Waterdeep, probably not.
Now if I point-buy a human, and try to go for the most "balanced" set of stats possible? 14, 14, 14, 13, 13 13. Overall a +9(+2 to STR DEX CON, +1 to INT WIS CHA), that guard up there? Who is better than most every normal person? He has a total +3. That's not even including optimization to get two of those 13s to a 12 and bump one of those. If your character wants to kind of focus and specializes in something as a human, you can go for 16 16 14 10 10 10. 3 average stats and 3 AMAZING stats for a first-level character. Not normal by any stretch.
I honestly see where you're coming from, but part of the fun at lower levels for characters is the growth. Having the level 1 character who already has all the stats of an amazing adventurer?
I know this is a bit of a gravedig, but this is one of the first results that people see when they search "expanded point buy", so I'd like to leave my 2 cents.
I agree that low stats like 6s and 7s can really contribute to a sense of character in a way that 8s and 9s don't. Because of 5e's bounded accuracy, a -1 to your rolls doesn't do much. -2, however, can be felt far stronger, and therefore results in a game experience that reflects a character's poor ability in that area.
What I don't agree with is that 15s and 16s are somehow unimpressive. We're talking level 1 adventurers here. As Spideycloned points out, a 15 or 16 already puts a PC above the abilities of 90% of the people in a campaign setting. By allowing players to buy higher ability scores with a more generous points pool and the ability to expand that pool by dumping down to 6, you end up with truly broken level 1 characters. If you want characters that start with 19 or 20 in their primary ability, that's fine. Play a high level game.
As to the numbers themselves:
The math for each ability score is good. The points pool is not. Set the points pool back to 27 like the PHB recommends and you'll be okay. Below is an improved system (in my opinion) with a 2 point cost to go up to 13 from 12 and a starting ability score of 6:
Points Pool: 42
6: 0 points
7: 1 point
8: 2 points
9: 3 points
10: 4 points
11: 5 points
12: 6 points
13: 8 points
14: 10 points
15: 12 points
16: 14 points
17: 17 points
This point buy can get you the normal standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8) and averages at the same point as normal point buy (13 13 13 12 12 12), but allows for those super low scores and for purchasing high scores at an appropriate cost.
I think your right that having a 20 from the start is to op but even the rolling can get you that but I think it’s kinda dumb to have 15 as your highest score because of the feat system since you would have to at least two full ability score improvements and a one plus feat to get to 20
I think your right that having a 20 from the start is to op but even the rolling can get you that but I think it’s kinda dumb to have 15 as your highest score because of the feat system since you would have to at least two full ability score improvements and a one plus feat to get to 20
aldo thanks internet stranger
True, but feats are technically a optional rule, so a dm could rule (likely to the displeasure of the players) that feats aren't allowed, which would make starting with lower stats good (so as not to "waste" ASI's (Though, you could just max out dex and or con after your main stat)
I've always had a bit of an issue with the point buy system because the range of 8-15 feels a little restrictive to me. 15 isn't a BAD stat, but it's not particularly impressive either, and I feel like a player should have a right to at least one really impressive stat to start with (not bound by racial bonuses). I also feel like 8 shouldn't be the bottom cut-off either because a truly bad stat can add as much to a character as it takes away. Basically, the current Point Buy system just feels like it encourages mediocrity, so as a thought, I figured I'd drop a slightly wider option for the Point Buy system that is essentially the same thing, but with a range of 6-17 for a little better variety.
Points to start: 33
6: +2 points
7: +1 point
8: STARTING POINT
9: -1 point
10: -1 point
11: -1 point
12: -1 point
13: -1 point
14: -2 points
15: -2 points
16: -2 points
17: -3 points
For comparison, current PB allows a player to theoretically min/max three stats to 15 while leaving three at 8. This version has the exact same capacity at three 17s and three 6s, with the new median allowing for 13s in five stats and a 14 in one - which I will say has a certain amount of appeal for someone that potentially wishes to play a "Jack-of-all-Trades" character - ensuring from the get-go that they have the ability to multi-class into anything as soon as they level up.
But more to the point, I just feel like this would be a bit more flexible for players and allow for more interesting variations in starting stats than the current system.
Example 1) 17, 15, 14, 11, 10, 7
Example 2) 16, 16, 15, 12, 9, 6
Example 3) 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 8 (This as a new Standard Array option it pretty interesting as well in my opinion)
The concept of what you're trying to do, to me, seems sound. I don't particularly like it, but let's focus on the feedback piece and not my personal opinion.
The early game is balanced around the characters NOT having 18s and 20s in stats. Level 1 characters shouldn't be on par with level 4/6(fighters)/8 characters stat-wise because some of that comes through the experience of earning it. Low Stats, while they can be interesting if role-played right can also be detrimental but if they get too low it can just be burdensome.
What I do is generally the following:
You get a +2 in one stat and a +1 to one stat, ignoring the normal racial bonuses. This allows anyone to be any race they want without having to always pick X because it has Y. Normal human is the exception since it gets +1 in all stats. This lets parties have more diverse makeups. If someone picks a race that isn't obviously very strong like Satyrs, Yuan-Ti etc I might bump up that other +1 to a +2 to encourage them to play a neat character. Not a min-max hero.
Standard point buy doesn't encourage mediocrity though. Using the SRD, let us look at the stats of a Guard. 13 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, 10 INT, 11 WIS, 10 CHA
Remember that Commoners are literally 10 across the board. The definition of average. So this Guard has a +1 STR, DEX, CON. Makes sense, he is a physical character. Remember those guards to normal every day people are STRONG. They aren't throwaway nobodies to commoners. Your guy strolls up with 15/17 STR and that Guard is now like WHOA, THAT DUDE IS STRONG. Commoners are generally THAT IS THE STRONGEST PERSON I'VE EVER SEEN in little villages and hamlets. Waterdeep, probably not.
Now if I point-buy a human, and try to go for the most "balanced" set of stats possible? 14, 14, 14, 13, 13 13. Overall a +9(+2 to STR DEX CON, +1 to INT WIS CHA), that guard up there? Who is better than most every normal person? He has a total +3. That's not even including optimization to get two of those 13s to a 12 and bump one of those. If your character wants to kind of focus and specializes in something as a human, you can go for 16 16 14 10 10 10. 3 average stats and 3 AMAZING stats for a first-level character. Not normal by any stretch.
I honestly see where you're coming from, but part of the fun at lower levels for characters is the growth. Having the level 1 character who already has all the stats of an amazing adventurer?
I know this is a bit of a gravedig, but this is one of the first results that people see when they search "expanded point buy", so I'd like to leave my 2 cents.
I agree that low stats like 6s and 7s can really contribute to a sense of character in a way that 8s and 9s don't. Because of 5e's bounded accuracy, a -1 to your rolls doesn't do much. -2, however, can be felt far stronger, and therefore results in a game experience that reflects a character's poor ability in that area.
What I don't agree with is that 15s and 16s are somehow unimpressive. We're talking level 1 adventurers here. As Spideycloned points out, a 15 or 16 already puts a PC above the abilities of 90% of the people in a campaign setting. By allowing players to buy higher ability scores with a more generous points pool and the ability to expand that pool by dumping down to 6, you end up with truly broken level 1 characters. If you want characters that start with 19 or 20 in their primary ability, that's fine. Play a high level game.
As to the numbers themselves:
The math for each ability score is good. The points pool is not. Set the points pool back to 27 like the PHB recommends and you'll be okay. Below is an improved system (in my opinion) with a 2 point cost to go up to 13 from 12 and a starting ability score of 6:
Points Pool: 42
This point buy can get you the normal standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8) and averages at the same point as normal point buy (13 13 13 12 12 12), but allows for those super low scores and for purchasing high scores at an appropriate cost.
I think your right that having a 20 from the start is to op but even the rolling can get you that but I think it’s kinda dumb to have 15 as your highest score because of the feat system since you would have to at least two full ability score improvements and a one plus feat to get to 20
aldo thanks internet stranger
True, but feats are technically a optional rule, so a dm could rule (likely to the displeasure of the players) that feats aren't allowed, which would make starting with lower stats good (so as not to "waste" ASI's (Though, you could just max out dex and or con after your main stat)
Shouldn't jumping from a 12 to a 13 only cost 1 point? I think that's throwing off your cost distribution.