You can know when and where to step, but can you execute it?
Yes. Taking a step requires no special amount of dexterity. Dex checks are for walking on a balance beam or across a slippery floor. But, if you are walking across an area, you need to have the wisdom to know where the squeaky boards are in the wood floor or where the twigs are that will crack and give you away no mater how gingerly you step on them.
All of which is represented by proficiency in Stealth, not by making it a wisdom check.
You can know when and where to step, but can you execute it?
Yes. Taking a step requires no special amount of dexterity. Dex checks are for walking on a balance beam or across a slippery floor. But, if you are walking across an area, you need to have the wisdom to know where the squeaky boards are in the wood floor or where the twigs are that will crack and give you away no mater how gingerly you step on them.
Knowing where a squeaky board might be doesn't mean you can physically avoid it while moving quietly in general.
That said, there is a case where Wisdom (Stealth) might make some sense which would be for example if you're in the grounds of a large mansion at night with patrolling guards and plenty of cover to easily hide behind. In a case like this you could argue Wisdom (Stealth) as getting through the area is less about being quiet and more about recognising the patrol routes and judging when to move to avoid each patrol.
You could make a case like that, though I'd personally expect most DM's to just combine regular Wisdom (Perception) and Dexterity (Stealth) rolls into a group check and do it that way, as it lets perceptive party members boost your chances, but Wisdom (Stealth) would be quicker/simpler.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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As a culinary enthusiast, I appreciate why one might use Charisma for a cooking check, but that is definitely the wrong one to use.
Thoughtful plating is entirely secondary to understanding the interactions of flavors, textures, temperature, and the kitchen science. It needs to be an intelligence check like most Crafting checks, because using a tablespoon of salt when you need a teaspoon can completely destroy a dish.
If you are going to be preparing food for royalty, you should roll Craft: Cooking (Intelligence) and Performance: Cooking (Charisma) separately.
Two chances to screw it up. or, do something like Perform: Cooking (Intelligence/Charisma) with advantage, if you are are proficient in both performance and cooking. Depending on what you are preparing, and whether your performance is hinging on the quality or the presentation of the dish.
And you may want a Wisdom check up front for picking good ingredients at the marketplace.
I’m a fan of using the different skills with abilities. I can see using the stealth skill with different abilities, and have. If being quiet is the main issue (which normally is within 60 feet or so, say like in a dungeon or city street), dexterity definitely stands out for me as the best pairing. But I allow wisdom stealth a lot when it is more just staying out of sight, like hiding in the wild far away, hiding in a crowded street, or avoiding being seen in a army battle. Many skill checks should, in real life, be using multiple skills at the same time. Take tumbling. That is definitely a mix of strength and dexterity. What mixing these things up is, is asking what ability score are you making the primary driver of a given attempt at a given task. Either way, we are usually talking about a difference of maybe 5-15% difference to the roll.
You could even call for a Stealth (Cha) roll when a player tries to blend in with the crowd. After all, if you crit fail your charisma in that situation, someone in the crowd is going to recognize you as up to something and rat you out.
You can know when and where to step, but can you execute it?
Yes. Taking a step requires no special amount of dexterity. Dex checks are for walking on a balance beam or across a slippery floor. But, if you are walking across an area, you need to have the wisdom to know where the squeaky boards are in the wood floor or where the twigs are that will crack and give you away no mater how gingerly you step on them.
I am no expert in stealth, but I am an expert in laziness, which means that sometimes when I go to fetch my mail and the end of my gravel driveway, I don't put on shoes. I don't know if you've ever walked barefoot on gravel, but the trick isn't being perceptive enough to spot the sharp, projecting pebble. That would be like a 25 DC to do at a glance while you're trying to move at a reasonable speed. The trick is maintaining your balance so that when you put your foot down on the sharp pebble, you can shift your weight and not put any pressure on that pebble. That's Dex.
I imagine it's much the same with avoiding the creaky board. Trying to spot the creaky board while you creep through the shadows is impossible. Instead, you have to feel the board start to flex when you begin to put your weight on it, and be ready to shift your weight back to the other foot.
That said, there is a case where Wisdom (Stealth) might make some sense which would be for example if you're in the grounds of a large mansion at night with patrolling guards and plenty of cover to easily hide behind. In a case like this you could argue Wisdom (Stealth) as getting through the area is less about being quiet and more about recognising the patrol routes and judging when to move to avoid each patrol.
I'd call that Int, actually. You're reasoning about cause and effect, like Investigation. Although I can see some similarity to Survival, which is Wis. These are cool ideas for ways to combine other stats with Stealth.
That said, there is a case where Wisdom (Stealth) might make some sense which would be for example if you're in the grounds of a large mansion at night with patrolling guards and plenty of cover to easily hide behind. In a case like this you could argue Wisdom (Stealth) as getting through the area is less about being quiet and more about recognising the patrol routes and judging when to move to avoid each patrol.
I'd call that Int, actually. You're reasoning about cause and effect, like Investigation. Although I can see some similarity to Survival, which is Wis. These are cool ideas for ways to combine other stats with Stealth.
Yeah, if we're fully unbinding skills from stats, I'd go further ... in the above case of timing guards set up by an intelligence, I'd say it's a stealth/intelligence check (deleted digression on how real patrols actually change up patterns in shift to discourage timing, but those are still predicated on a logic, so ... intelligence game again). Now if you're trying to sneak up on a sleeping beast or even a sentry animal (guard dog or cobra, for instance), that's wisdom+stealth. Intelligence is analytic, Wisdom is more intuitive, I could picture two different styles of sneaking so as a DM I might determine the check based on the characters and more importantly how the player describes their action. "I mark the guard patterns, check my gear once more to make sure nothings shiny or liable to alert the guards, and move in when I see my best window of opportunity" would be intelligence. "I wait for the cloud to obscure the moon and take to the shadows" has more of a Wisdom check vibe.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
*is surprised that the argument over a physical ability has gone on for 5 pages*
Wisdom is a mental ability.
Dexterity is a physical ability.
Therefore Stealth would fall naturally under Dexterity due to it involving movement of body and not movement of mind.
Now, we can certainly argue to the cows come home, however Stealth has always been tied to Dexterity or such related attributes in every RPG game on the market and has been linked to such since back in 1st Ed.
Oh yes, although I like the idea of reducing the effect of the good stat that Dex is, you can be as clever as you like in plotting a path through gravel and as in tune with the world about feeling it, but it will avail you nothing of you are as clumsy as a pregnant cow with no balance and no coordination when the time comes to actually walk that path.
Now that would be a sight to see, the poor pregnant minotaur rolling that 1 on their stealth dex roll while trying to sneak through the porcelain shop.
There’s also advantage and disadvantage to take into consideration. Although, I define either of those being a bit more of something that has great effect to a roll based on conditions other than the person attempting the roll. Just like with strength based intimidation, an example used in the PHB for this rule, I think the ability used depends on the desired attempt, the PC attempting it, and how they are attempting it. Do we define “stealth” as being unseen and unheard, just being unheard (as the hiding rules state you must be unseen to try and hide which uses the stealth skill check), or something else. I think most folks use stealth for just not making noise. And that, most of the time, is probably dexterity based. If we are talking about weaving in and out of a crowd of people on a busy city street, or moving unseen and unheard in a dense forest, or sneaking up on a creature that is deaf but can still see, then an wisdom, intelligence, or even charisma (for the city street attempt) based “stealth” skill check makes more sense to me.
For doing crowd surveillance or evasion through 'blending" in, I'd allow charisma stealth or a charisma deception check. It's a mix of body language, following social patterns, and frankly keeping your head on a swivel for observers but not looking like you're doing that.
I'd grant a rogue or other class engaged in rogue like activities advantage on stealth and tool, etc checks applied to a site (a prison, or castle, or maybe a treasury caravan, etc.) if they do a significant amount of what rogues would call "casing" of the site. Think about heist movies and how often half if not more than half is actually all the prep work that goes on before the big score. Disadvantage could occur if they were somehow burnt or made during the casing (or things like have an accomplice who is actually an informant etc. they can still triumph after being set up, but at disadvantage).
All of which is represented by proficiency in Stealth, not by making it a wisdom check.
Knowing where a squeaky board might be doesn't mean you can physically avoid it while moving quietly in general.
That said, there is a case where Wisdom (Stealth) might make some sense which would be for example if you're in the grounds of a large mansion at night with patrolling guards and plenty of cover to easily hide behind. In a case like this you could argue Wisdom (Stealth) as getting through the area is less about being quiet and more about recognising the patrol routes and judging when to move to avoid each patrol.
You could make a case like that, though I'd personally expect most DM's to just combine regular Wisdom (Perception) and Dexterity (Stealth) rolls into a group check and do it that way, as it lets perceptive party members boost your chances, but Wisdom (Stealth) would be quicker/simpler.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
And you may want a Wisdom check up front for picking good ingredients at the marketplace.
You could even call for a Stealth (Cha) roll when a player tries to blend in with the crowd. After all, if you crit fail your charisma in that situation, someone in the crowd is going to recognize you as up to something and rat you out.
I am no expert in stealth, but I am an expert in laziness, which means that sometimes when I go to fetch my mail and the end of my gravel driveway, I don't put on shoes. I don't know if you've ever walked barefoot on gravel, but the trick isn't being perceptive enough to spot the sharp, projecting pebble. That would be like a 25 DC to do at a glance while you're trying to move at a reasonable speed. The trick is maintaining your balance so that when you put your foot down on the sharp pebble, you can shift your weight and not put any pressure on that pebble. That's Dex.
I imagine it's much the same with avoiding the creaky board. Trying to spot the creaky board while you creep through the shadows is impossible. Instead, you have to feel the board start to flex when you begin to put your weight on it, and be ready to shift your weight back to the other foot.
I'd call that Int, actually. You're reasoning about cause and effect, like Investigation. Although I can see some similarity to Survival, which is Wis. These are cool ideas for ways to combine other stats with Stealth.
Yeah, if we're fully unbinding skills from stats, I'd go further ... in the above case of timing guards set up by an intelligence, I'd say it's a stealth/intelligence check (deleted digression on how real patrols actually change up patterns in shift to discourage timing, but those are still predicated on a logic, so ... intelligence game again). Now if you're trying to sneak up on a sleeping beast or even a sentry animal (guard dog or cobra, for instance), that's wisdom+stealth. Intelligence is analytic, Wisdom is more intuitive, I could picture two different styles of sneaking so as a DM I might determine the check based on the characters and more importantly how the player describes their action. "I mark the guard patterns, check my gear once more to make sure nothings shiny or liable to alert the guards, and move in when I see my best window of opportunity" would be intelligence. "I wait for the cloud to obscure the moon and take to the shadows" has more of a Wisdom check vibe.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
*is surprised that the argument over a physical ability has gone on for 5 pages*
Wisdom is a mental ability.
Dexterity is a physical ability.
Therefore Stealth would fall naturally under Dexterity due to it involving movement of body and not movement of mind.
Now, we can certainly argue to the cows come home, however Stealth has always been tied to Dexterity or such related attributes in every RPG game on the market and has been linked to such since back in 1st Ed.
"I have spoken"
Now that would be a sight to see, the poor pregnant minotaur rolling that 1 on their stealth dex roll while trying to sneak through the porcelain shop.
There’s also advantage and disadvantage to take into consideration. Although, I define either of those being a bit more of something that has great effect to a roll based on conditions other than the person attempting the roll. Just like with strength based intimidation, an example used in the PHB for this rule, I think the ability used depends on the desired attempt, the PC attempting it, and how they are attempting it. Do we define “stealth” as being unseen and unheard, just being unheard (as the hiding rules state you must be unseen to try and hide which uses the stealth skill check), or something else. I think most folks use stealth for just not making noise. And that, most of the time, is probably dexterity based. If we are talking about weaving in and out of a crowd of people on a busy city street, or moving unseen and unheard in a dense forest, or sneaking up on a creature that is deaf but can still see, then an wisdom, intelligence, or even charisma (for the city street attempt) based “stealth” skill check makes more sense to me.
For doing crowd surveillance or evasion through 'blending" in, I'd allow charisma stealth or a charisma deception check. It's a mix of body language, following social patterns, and frankly keeping your head on a swivel for observers but not looking like you're doing that.
I'd grant a rogue or other class engaged in rogue like activities advantage on stealth and tool, etc checks applied to a site (a prison, or castle, or maybe a treasury caravan, etc.) if they do a significant amount of what rogues would call "casing" of the site. Think about heist movies and how often half if not more than half is actually all the prep work that goes on before the big score. Disadvantage could occur if they were somehow burnt or made during the casing (or things like have an accomplice who is actually an informant etc. they can still triumph after being set up, but at disadvantage).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.