The problem with rapier being light is that under the current system, no one would use rapier+dagger, they would use rapier+rapier, which is incredibly awkward. Rather than making the rapier light, it would make more sense to change it so you can TWF as long as the off hand weapon is light. As for scimitars, I can't find historical evidence either way, but dual scimitars are very common in media, Drizzt is hardly the only user.
Scimitar is pretty much 'curved sword'; using two light scimitars is no worse than using two light straight swords.
It’s only about game balance. Nothing more. No historical accuracy, or real life experience. They needed a d8 weapon that uses DEX so they made rapier d8 finesse. They needed scimitars to be light (Drizzt canon) so they made scimitars light and d6.
There is a lot to said for it just being a game mechanic. That said rapiers originally had more in common with long swords than short swords. Think of them as broadswords with a thinned out extended blade and you have a better feel for them than modern fencing weapons. As someone said a lot of the misunderstanding is based on the later small sword that was a a reduced version more like the modern fencing foil or epee. The rapier was in reality both a slashing and stabbing weapon not just a stabbing weapon. Modern saber fencing is more like rapier fencing than foil or epee. At 3-4+ feet long in the blade trying to dual wield things this long with skill is difficult at best. Shorter blades are easier to dual wield because they interfere with each other far less. Even dual wielding long swords is very hard. I’ve tried dual wielding katanas and it can be done but something shorter like wakazashis or machetes or the Chinese butterfly swords is far easier. If you want to try take two broomsticks without the broom and see how much you can do then take the two sections of pipe from an old fashioned vacuum and see how much easier that is. For rangers the falchion (basically a machete) actually works perfectly as a brush cutter and sword and is the right size to dual wield easily.
because of the relatively curved blade of a scimitar it is almost a purely slashing weapon. My suspicion is that they are thinking of any curved bladed weapon as a scimitar and what he actually dual wields is more like a falchion or wakazashi.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
Trying to debate a topic based on reality in a game with fantasy races, magical spells, and active deities seems a bit pointless to me.
Rapiers aren't Light for damage balance reasons...period.
Short Answer: Balance. No using a 1d8 weapon in two weapon fighting without the Dual Wielder feat.
Long Answer: "Light" isn't necessarily based off of weight. Light is a property given to weapons that are designed to emulate certain tropes with two-weapon fighting. An assassin with a pair of daggers, a pirate wielding two cutlasses (scimitars), etc. While there are real-life fighting styles involving a rapier and another weapon, those are less common to put it simply. The most common trope with rapiers is dueling, where a pair of fighters spar using one hand. Rapiers and scimitars are similar in size, but have different dice and properties that make them more suitable for certain styles and tropes over others. However, the D&D community is incredibly diverse and creative, which is why the Dual Wielder feat was created, to allow players to dual wield weapons that better fit their desired style.
It should probably be possible to dual wield with a dagger and a rapier, but wielding two rapiers at once isn't really practical because of length, not weight.
Trying to debate a topic based on reality in a game with fantasy races, magical spells, and active deities seems a bit pointless to me.
Rapiers aren't Light for damage balance reasons...period.
Yeah, but rapier and dagger is one of those combinations that should be allowed.
Rapier is bad sure, but you know which weapon actually blew my mind isn't light? The whip. Truly bizarre and only done for balance reasons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Real reason 1: The designers don't know much about weapons (a scimitar is actually a type of longsword, it's actually bigger/thicker than previous longswords and is a broad category which includes things like cutlasses and sabres, and very much NOT light).
Real reason 2: balance mechanic.
The rules use the scimitar is a catchall for basically every one-handed sword under the sun. It includes European arming/knightly swords, various Chinese dao, the Iberian falcata, falchions, sabres, the wakizashi, and I'm probably still leaving tons out. Perhaps ironically, it could also include the khopesh; despite it having more in common with axes than swords.
The longsword, as we know it, is inspired by the European bastard sword. Swords were classified by the length of both the grip (how many hands it needed) and the length of the blade. The longsword doesn't neatly fit into the typical categories, hence the bastard designation. It's an irregular sword of undetermined origin.
Rapier is bad sure, but you know which weapon actually blew my mind isn't light? The whip. Truly bizarre and only done for balance reasons.
Two whips at once sounds like a recipe for a knot, but 'whip and another weapon' certainly seems like something that should be permitted.
We have a performer at a local Renaissance Fair that holds the world record for most whip cracks in a minute (over 120!). I would have NO issues with someone proficient in the Whip using two at a time. Without Proficiency? Yeah...I see knots and lots of 'Harrison Ford' scars lol!
The longsword, as we know it, is inspired by the European bastard sword.
No, the longsword was inspired by prior editions of D&D, which have been gradually combining similar weapons. In terms of use pattern, the 5e longsword incorporates the weapons AD&D called the broadsword, the longsword, and the bastard sword.
The longsword, as we know it, is inspired by the European bastard sword.
No, the longsword was inspired by prior editions of D&D, which have been gradually combining similar weapons. In terms of use pattern, the 5e longsword incorporates the weapons AD&D called the broadsword, the longsword, and the bastard sword.
Yes and no. The "longsword" isn't what the game thinks it is. Both the greatsword and rapier are examples of longswords.
Funnily enough, the "broadsword" or basket-hilt sword is a Claymore, as is the two-handed weapon of Scottish fame.
In 5e light means a weapon can be used for dual wielding with no penalties or feats required, if you want to dual wield with a rapier you should have the two weapon fighting style and the dual wielding feat then go to town. I’m actual more surprised that it isn’t listed as a heavy weapon because a full size rapier (not a small sword/court sword) can be twice the height of a halfling or gnome making it hard for them to wield it properly let alone draw it.
in 5e take a look at all the different kinds of swords we actually know about vs what they list - their labels have little or nothing to do with outside classifications. Knife (not listed with the others) a very short (3-12”) curved or partially curved single edged bladed weapon used for cutting and slicing - (light and slashing) Dagger (light and piercing) a very short (3”-12”) bladed weapon with a double edge and straight blade used for cutting and stabbing. Short sword (piercing and light) representing all short 12-18”) straight bladed weapons. Technically a 13” Arkansas toothpick counts as a short sword not a dagger. Scimitar (light and slashing) representing all medium length (15-24”) curved single edged slashing swords Rapier (finesse and piercing) a long (30-50”) single handed sword used primarily for stabbing (but may be able to slash as well) it calls more for skill/dexterity than raw strength. Long sword (versatile and slashing) a long (30-60”) typically a straight double edged sword that could be used one or two handed, on foot or from horseback that focused on slashing and cutting tho some could also pierce. Great sword (heavy and slashing) a large (50-72”) double handed and double edged straight bladed sword used primarily on the ground for slashing attacks.
There is a lot to said for it just being a game mechanic. That said rapiers originally had more in common with long swords than short swords. Think of them as broadswords with a thinned out extended blade and you have a better feel for them than modern fencing weapons. As someone said a lot of the misunderstanding is based on the later small sword that was a a reduced version more like the modern fencing foil or epee. The rapier was in reality both a slashing and stabbing weapon not just a stabbing weapon. Modern saber fencing is more like rapier fencing than foil or epee. At 3-4+ feet long in the blade trying to dual wield things this long with skill is difficult at best. Shorter blades are easier to dual wield because they interfere with each other far less. Even dual wielding long swords is very hard. I’ve tried dual wielding katanas and it can be done but something shorter like wakazashis or machetes or the Chinese butterfly swords is far easier. If you want to try take two broomsticks without the broom and see how much you can do then take the two sections of pipe from an old fashioned vacuum and see how much easier that is. For rangers the falchion (basically a machete) actually works perfectly as a brush cutter and sword and is the right size to dual wield easily.
because of the relatively curved blade of a scimitar it is almost a purely slashing weapon. My suspicion is that they are thinking of any curved bladed weapon as a scimitar and what he actually dual wields is more like a falchion or wakazashi.
Well, as someone who fences actual rapiers in HEMA. A rapier is not more like a longsword than a short sword. Yes, length and weight span are similar, but that doesn't make them similar. Rapier is also a primarily stabbing weapon, much like the short sword, it also has slashing techniques, but they are an opportunistic move made when other options are unavailable or to catch an opponent off guard. If we go historic, dual wielding rapiers or sideswords has been a thing that masters (as far as I know, mostly Italian maestros) have taught and made books about.
But it is simply not viable to use historical evidence as a pretence to control the game mechanics of DnD. Dual wielding was never a thing in combat outside duels with specific ruling. It was simply more effective to use a shield or a heavier weapon in both hands. Why have to defend using another weapon and sometimes switch the offensive and defensive hand when you can use a shield that can cover a decent part of your body and attack with it if the opportunity arrives?
I personally think making rapiers light really doesn't change much, the increase in damage output is really negligible compared to for example sneak attack. What difference does a possible 4 extra damage that makes you use both action and bonus action make when you can already output a possible 6 extra damage and possibly still have a bonus action to use in versatility at lvl 1. As levels rise, it becomes less and less impactful compared to class features.
Yes today ( and even historically) the rapier was /is a stabbing weapon, I never said it wasn’t. You actually made my point for me - length and weight are similar and, unlike modern foil but similar to modern saber it does have slashing techniques. My main point was that dual wielding was difficult, primarily due to the length ( and weight) and the 2 weapons interfering with each other due to the lengths. As you said - masters could do it and probably taught it. As a guess I would think most of the masters who did, along with most of the people who learned to do it from them were left handed - lefties generally have to use their right hands far more than righties use their left - and start with more dual dexterity. Yes with enough practice either can learn it but …
Oh absolutely, no ill intent on your main point. Just found the use of similarity between longsword and rapier needed more context. About the dual wielding maestros, I'm not sure any mentions are made about what their main hand would be, but interesting thing about them is they usually have an education around geometry or mathematics. Like Camillo Agrippa and I think Antonio Manciolino. It seems like such knowledge would help in the ability to dual wield rapier and possibly other weapons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm so glad someone else has watched that show!
Scimitar is pretty much 'curved sword'; using two light scimitars is no worse than using two light straight swords.
It’s only about game balance. Nothing more. No historical accuracy, or real life experience. They needed a d8 weapon that uses DEX so they made rapier d8 finesse. They needed scimitars to be light (Drizzt canon) so they made scimitars light and d6.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
There is a lot to said for it just being a game mechanic. That said rapiers originally had more in common with long swords than short swords. Think of them as broadswords with a thinned out extended blade and you have a better feel for them than modern fencing weapons. As someone said a lot of the misunderstanding is based on the later small sword that was a a reduced version more like the modern fencing foil or epee. The rapier was in reality both a slashing and stabbing weapon not just a stabbing weapon. Modern saber fencing is more like rapier fencing than foil or epee. At 3-4+ feet long in the blade trying to dual wield things this long with skill is difficult at best. Shorter blades are easier to dual wield because they interfere with each other far less. Even dual wielding long swords is very hard. I’ve tried dual wielding katanas and it can be done but something shorter like wakazashis or machetes or the Chinese butterfly swords is far easier. If you want to try take two broomsticks without the broom and see how much you can do then take the two sections of pipe from an old fashioned vacuum and see how much easier that is. For rangers the falchion (basically a machete) actually works perfectly as a brush cutter and sword and is the right size to dual wield easily.
because of the relatively curved blade of a scimitar it is almost a purely slashing weapon. My suspicion is that they are thinking of any curved bladed weapon as a scimitar and what he actually dual wields is more like a falchion or wakazashi.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Trying to debate a topic based on reality in a game with fantasy races, magical spells, and active deities seems a bit pointless to me.
Rapiers aren't Light for damage balance reasons...period.
I also allow basic two-weapon fighting with rapier & dagger, or longsword & dagger.
Short Answer: Balance. No using a 1d8 weapon in two weapon fighting without the Dual Wielder feat.
Long Answer: "Light" isn't necessarily based off of weight. Light is a property given to weapons that are designed to emulate certain tropes with two-weapon fighting. An assassin with a pair of daggers, a pirate wielding two cutlasses (scimitars), etc. While there are real-life fighting styles involving a rapier and another weapon, those are less common to put it simply. The most common trope with rapiers is dueling, where a pair of fighters spar using one hand. Rapiers and scimitars are similar in size, but have different dice and properties that make them more suitable for certain styles and tropes over others. However, the D&D community is incredibly diverse and creative, which is why the Dual Wielder feat was created, to allow players to dual wield weapons that better fit their desired style.
Yeah, but rapier and dagger is one of those combinations that should be allowed.
Rapier is bad sure, but you know which weapon actually blew my mind isn't light? The whip. Truly bizarre and only done for balance reasons.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Two whips at once sounds like a recipe for a knot, but 'whip and another weapon' certainly seems like something that should be permitted.
The rules use the scimitar is a catchall for basically every one-handed sword under the sun. It includes European arming/knightly swords, various Chinese dao, the Iberian falcata, falchions, sabres, the wakizashi, and I'm probably still leaving tons out. Perhaps ironically, it could also include the khopesh; despite it having more in common with axes than swords.
The longsword, as we know it, is inspired by the European bastard sword. Swords were classified by the length of both the grip (how many hands it needed) and the length of the blade. The longsword doesn't neatly fit into the typical categories, hence the bastard designation. It's an irregular sword of undetermined origin.
We have a performer at a local Renaissance Fair that holds the world record for most whip cracks in a minute (over 120!). I would have NO issues with someone proficient in the Whip using two at a time. Without Proficiency? Yeah...I see knots and lots of 'Harrison Ford' scars lol!
No, the longsword was inspired by prior editions of D&D, which have been gradually combining similar weapons. In terms of use pattern, the 5e longsword incorporates the weapons AD&D called the broadsword, the longsword, and the bastard sword.
Yes and no. The "longsword" isn't what the game thinks it is. Both the greatsword and rapier are examples of longswords.
Funnily enough, the "broadsword" or basket-hilt sword is a Claymore, as is the two-handed weapon of Scottish fame.
Got a ping about this thread. Dropping this for context. Carry on.
'Longsword' is not a term with a formal definition; it means whatever the game says it means. Of course, 5e doesn't actually say what it means.
In 5e light means a weapon can be used for dual wielding with no penalties or feats required, if you want to dual wield with a rapier you should have the two weapon fighting style and the dual wielding feat then go to town. I’m actual more surprised that it isn’t listed as a heavy weapon because a full size rapier (not a small sword/court sword) can be twice the height of a halfling or gnome making it hard for them to wield it properly let alone draw it.
in 5e take a look at all the different kinds of swords we actually know about vs what they list - their labels have little or nothing to do with outside classifications.
Knife (not listed with the others) a very short (3-12”) curved or partially curved single edged bladed weapon used for cutting and slicing - (light and slashing)
Dagger (light and piercing) a very short (3”-12”) bladed weapon with a double edge and straight blade used for cutting and stabbing.
Short sword (piercing and light) representing all short 12-18”) straight bladed weapons. Technically a 13” Arkansas toothpick counts as a short sword not a dagger.
Scimitar (light and slashing) representing all medium length (15-24”) curved single edged slashing swords
Rapier (finesse and piercing) a long (30-50”) single handed sword used primarily for stabbing (but may be able to slash as well) it calls more for skill/dexterity than raw strength.
Long sword (versatile and slashing) a long (30-60”) typically a straight double edged sword that could be used one or two handed, on foot or from horseback that focused on slashing and cutting tho some could also pierce.
Great sword (heavy and slashing) a large (50-72”) double handed and double edged straight bladed sword used primarily on the ground for slashing attacks.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Well, as someone who fences actual rapiers in HEMA. A rapier is not more like a longsword than a short sword. Yes, length and weight span are similar, but that doesn't make them similar. Rapier is also a primarily stabbing weapon, much like the short sword, it also has slashing techniques, but they are an opportunistic move made when other options are unavailable or to catch an opponent off guard. If we go historic, dual wielding rapiers or sideswords has been a thing that masters (as far as I know, mostly Italian maestros) have taught and made books about.
But it is simply not viable to use historical evidence as a pretence to control the game mechanics of DnD. Dual wielding was never a thing in combat outside duels with specific ruling. It was simply more effective to use a shield or a heavier weapon in both hands. Why have to defend using another weapon and sometimes switch the offensive and defensive hand when you can use a shield that can cover a decent part of your body and attack with it if the opportunity arrives?
I personally think making rapiers light really doesn't change much, the increase in damage output is really negligible compared to for example sneak attack. What difference does a possible 4 extra damage that makes you use both action and bonus action make when you can already output a possible 6 extra damage and possibly still have a bonus action to use in versatility at lvl 1. As levels rise, it becomes less and less impactful compared to class features.
Yes today ( and even historically) the rapier was /is a stabbing weapon, I never said it wasn’t. You actually made my point for me - length and weight are similar and, unlike modern foil but similar to modern saber it does have slashing techniques. My main point was that dual wielding was difficult, primarily due to the length ( and weight) and the 2 weapons interfering with each other due to the lengths. As you said - masters could do it and probably taught it. As a guess I would think most of the masters who did, along with most of the people who learned to do it from them were left handed - lefties generally have to use their right hands far more than righties use their left - and start with more dual dexterity. Yes with enough practice either can learn it but …
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Oh absolutely, no ill intent on your main point. Just found the use of similarity between longsword and rapier needed more context. About the dual wielding maestros, I'm not sure any mentions are made about what their main hand would be, but interesting thing about them is they usually have an education around geometry or mathematics. Like Camillo Agrippa and I think Antonio Manciolino. It seems like such knowledge would help in the ability to dual wield rapier and possibly other weapons.