Our DM has added swallow mechanics to dragons. They aren’t dumb creatures by any measure, so she has a general rule about them understanding not to swallow dangerous enemies with plenty of HP. Which is good! However...
Abjuration Wizard is physically the weakest. Wizard also has a Contingency that heals him for 43 upon being reduced to 0 (wizard/grave cleric). So, Adult Dragon bite and swallows, wizard is at 43HP inside the dragon. Now, I know what you are saying: “wizard is blinded and restrained.”
...but OH HO, he is not; this wizard just so happens to have a Dagger of Blindsight, which fundamentally cancels the Blinded condition in most cases. Now. To the meat:
What happens if the wizard casts Polymorph on himself and chooses to become a Giant Ape inside the Ancient Red Dragon? Surely, the dragon plummets to the ground or AT LEAST has their movement reduced by half? Frankly, a huge creature carrying around a huge creature in their belly sounds like overweight, zero movement to me, but. By mount rules, a creature can not carry a creature the same size as it, right? Note Polymorph has no restriction on size like Enlarge does.
I noticed a lot of threads on Google about what happens to swallowed creatures if you Polymorph the creature doing the swallowing.
Mechanically per the rules? The wizard gains a lot of HP, gets a lot dumber, and is still blinded and restrained (for reals this time, since the dagger will meld into the form). Anything else is by DM fiat, especially given that we don't know the weights or actual sizes of both creatures (we only know the area it "controls").
If I were DM'ing the situation, I would rule that the Dragon's stomach immediately distends, Forcing a CON save from the dragon (I'd make it against the DC of whatever mechanic would force the dragon to disgorge the swallowed creature) causing some amount of bludgeoning damage (maybe 4d10 x the number of sizes larger than the typical limit of swallowing, save for half; if this kills the dragon, its stomach splits open). On the wizards next turn, they take the acid damage again, make the CON Save to maintain concentration, and possibly revert back if they fail...otherwise the dragon makes the save again on its turn, taking additional bludgeoning damage on a failure (2d10 x number of sizes larger, repeat each of the dragons turns until the wizard drops polymorph, or the dragon dies)
Dragons fly via magical means in my campaigns, so no changes to its flight abilities would occur for me.
Dragons fly via magical means in my campaigns, so no changes to its flight abilities would occur for me.
Not sure what you mean by this, given that regardless of how you fly, carry weight still applies. In this case, I'd even see how it would cause the dragon to crash down. The carry weight of an adult red dragon is I think like 1600 or so pounds, and a Giant Ape probably weighs much more than this. Do you mean in your campaigns that your dragons can't be brought down by conventional means because yikes!
At the least, it's speed would be reduced by half?
The improvised damage Icon mentioned sounds good. Otherwise, I would make the swallower spit up the swallowed as the transformation occurs. No exploding guts in my campaigns.
Dragons fly via magical means in my campaigns, so no changes to its flight abilities would occur for me.
Not sure what you mean by this, given that regardless of how you fly, carry weight still applies. In this case, I'd even see how it would cause the dragon to crash down. The carry weight of an adult red dragon is I think like 1600 or so pounds, and a Giant Ape probably weighs much more than this. Do you mean in your campaigns that your dragons can't be brought down by conventional means because yikes!
At the least, it's speed would be reduced by half?
The carry weight rules were made for humanoid PCs, not giant dragons. The dragon likely weighs many times 1600 pounds. Saying it can only carry a tiny percentage of its body weight is not at all in keeping with. We’re in DM fiat territory here, so if you want to cut their speed fine. I don’t, and that is also fine
This is an interesting tactic. I would probably say that a huge creature appearing within a huge creature would prompt a set of contested con saves with fairly high damage - if the giant ape rolls lower, it's crushed inside the dragon, and if the dragon rolls lower, its stomach stretches and/or ruptures.
I am now also wondering if players could run this the other way to function as a time bomb... polymorph the goliath character into a mouse, get him eaten by the monster, then when the mouse dies through acid damage, the goliath re-appears inside the monster, with all the explosive goriness that this implies!
Imagine polymoprhing a Galeb Duhr or something into a small animal to get eaten by the enemy...
The carry weight rules were made for humanoid PCs, not giant dragons.
I believe carry weights are universal.
“Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.”
The carry weight rules were made for humanoid PCs, not giant dragons.
I believe carry weights are universal.
“Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.”
I 100% reject the notion that a huge dragon can carry less than a pickup truck can. RAW or not, I’m sorry, that’s ridiculous. With those limits I doubt it would be able to lift its own head or carry off larger livestock. Huge creatures are, by sheer volume, 27 times bigger than medium ones, and strength should increase similarly or again, the creature should not even be able to support its own weight.
Again, my game, my rules...and your game, your rules (assuming you’re the DM)
I’ll add that if you are wanting us to “back you up” when you try this in front of your DM, nothing we say here will change how they rule...this is already complete homebrew territory from post #1,
Here’s a response from my very very knowledgeable go to DM:
“Technically 1620 is it's normal carry weight for equipment. It's push/drag/lift would be 3240, and per PHB while pushing/dragging/lifting more than your carry weight, you can move 5ft per round.“
So even with a Giant Ape inside it (gonna assume the Giant Ape weighs less than 3240) it would not drop out of the sky, but would be reduced to 5ft of movement, per PHB! When in doubt, read my PHB better, per usual. Even being super generous and adding 1000lbs to the average weight of a silverback gorilla x4 still doesn’t beat the dragon’s carry! That’s actually super impressive.
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Carry weights and push/pull are not just for PCs or humanoids, otherwise horses wouldn’t work to pull a carriage; that is, their carry weight as a large creature *must* have definition for their entire purpose to work. Why even have the rules, otherwise?
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In fair play to you, it is absurd once you get up to Gargantuan sizes; we know a Kraken is, lore wise, famous for literally pulling huge ships underwater with somewhat ease and that probably takes far, far more power to do than their push/pull weight.
MM entries are also notoriously sparse when it comes to rules. Centaurs (the playable race) have equine build, which for carry purposes is just powerful build by another name. In 3.5E all quadrupeds had something like this enhancing carrying capacity. In 5E the rules are by and large missing, so e.g. a draft horse's carrying capacity is only 540 pounds - less than an S20 Bugbear barbarian, let alone a Bear totem one. I think it's frankly reasonable to bring back the 3.5E rule that all quadrupeds have enhanced carrying capacity. Note that iirc in 3.5E the quadruped rule was a 1.5x multiplier, not a 2x multiplier, so you might want to tinker with the exact benefit you give your quadrupeds.
I do agree that giving the Huge+ size creatures something like that might be useful.
Honestly, I've just realized how weird it is Bugbears get Powerful Build. Why? Their base monster race is medium and doesnt feature that? I see the extra weapon die but meh?
The Giant Ape is squeezed inside the dragons stomach. The dragon takes two tums to curb the acid reflex. Giant Ape takes 21 acid damage per turn at the start of its turn.
When spells that allow you to pass through things have you ending your movement inside them unintentionally, the normal thing to happen is the caster inside the solid object takes damage and is forcibly moved to the closest available free space. Based off this I'd say the wizard takes damage (reference 1d8 Kinetic jaunt) and is regurgitated out of the dragon. Hopefully the dragon isnt in flight at the time.
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Scenario that might be happening soon:
Our DM has added swallow mechanics to dragons. They aren’t dumb creatures by any measure, so she has a general rule about them understanding not to swallow dangerous enemies with plenty of HP. Which is good! However...
Abjuration Wizard is physically the weakest. Wizard also has a Contingency that heals him for 43 upon being reduced to 0 (wizard/grave cleric). So, Adult Dragon bite and swallows, wizard is at 43HP inside the dragon. Now, I know what you are saying: “wizard is blinded and restrained.”
...but OH HO, he is not; this wizard just so happens to have a Dagger of Blindsight, which fundamentally cancels the Blinded condition in most cases. Now. To the meat:
What happens if the wizard casts Polymorph on himself and chooses to become a Giant Ape inside the Ancient Red Dragon? Surely, the dragon plummets to the ground or AT LEAST has their movement reduced by half? Frankly, a huge creature carrying around a huge creature in their belly sounds like overweight, zero movement to me, but. By mount rules, a creature can not carry a creature the same size as it, right? Note Polymorph has no restriction on size like Enlarge does.
I noticed a lot of threads on Google about what happens to swallowed creatures if you Polymorph the creature doing the swallowing.
Mechanically per the rules? The wizard gains a lot of HP, gets a lot dumber, and is still blinded and restrained (for reals this time, since the dagger will meld into the form). Anything else is by DM fiat, especially given that we don't know the weights or actual sizes of both creatures (we only know the area it "controls").
If I were DM'ing the situation, I would rule that the Dragon's stomach immediately distends, Forcing a CON save from the dragon (I'd make it against the DC of whatever mechanic would force the dragon to disgorge the swallowed creature) causing some amount of bludgeoning damage (maybe 4d10 x the number of sizes larger than the typical limit of swallowing, save for half; if this kills the dragon, its stomach splits open). On the wizards next turn, they take the acid damage again, make the CON Save to maintain concentration, and possibly revert back if they fail...otherwise the dragon makes the save again on its turn, taking additional bludgeoning damage on a failure (2d10 x number of sizes larger, repeat each of the dragons turns until the wizard drops polymorph, or the dragon dies)
Dragons fly via magical means in my campaigns, so no changes to its flight abilities would occur for me.
Not sure what you mean by this, given that regardless of how you fly, carry weight still applies. In this case, I'd even see how it would cause the dragon to crash down. The carry weight of an adult red dragon is I think like 1600 or so pounds, and a Giant Ape probably weighs much more than this. Do you mean in your campaigns that your dragons can't be brought down by conventional means because yikes!
At the least, it's speed would be reduced by half?
The improvised damage Icon mentioned sounds good. Otherwise, I would make the swallower spit up the swallowed as the transformation occurs. No exploding guts in my campaigns.
And yeah, I'd render it effectively immobile.
The carry weight rules were made for humanoid PCs, not giant dragons. The dragon likely weighs many times 1600 pounds. Saying it can only carry a tiny percentage of its body weight is not at all in keeping with. We’re in DM fiat territory here, so if you want to cut their speed fine. I don’t, and that is also fine
This is an interesting tactic. I would probably say that a huge creature appearing within a huge creature would prompt a set of contested con saves with fairly high damage - if the giant ape rolls lower, it's crushed inside the dragon, and if the dragon rolls lower, its stomach stretches and/or ruptures.
I am now also wondering if players could run this the other way to function as a time bomb... polymorph the goliath character into a mouse, get him eaten by the monster, then when the mouse dies through acid damage, the goliath re-appears inside the monster, with all the explosive goriness that this implies!
Imagine polymoprhing a Galeb Duhr or something into a small animal to get eaten by the enemy...
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I believe carry weights are universal.
“Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.”
I 100% reject the notion that a huge dragon can carry less than a pickup truck can. RAW or not, I’m sorry, that’s ridiculous. With those limits I doubt it would be able to lift its own head or carry off larger livestock. Huge creatures are, by sheer volume, 27 times bigger than medium ones, and strength should increase similarly or again, the creature should not even be able to support its own weight.
Again, my game, my rules...and your game, your rules (assuming you’re the DM)
I’ll add that if you are wanting us to “back you up” when you try this in front of your DM, nothing we say here will change how they rule...this is already complete homebrew territory from post #1,
Here’s a response from my very very knowledgeable go to DM:
“Technically 1620 is it's normal carry weight for equipment. It's push/drag/lift would be 3240, and per PHB while pushing/dragging/lifting more than your carry weight, you can move 5ft per round.“
So even with a Giant Ape inside it (gonna assume the Giant Ape weighs less than 3240) it would not drop out of the sky, but would be reduced to 5ft of movement, per PHB! When in doubt, read my PHB better, per usual. Even being super generous and adding 1000lbs to the average weight of a silverback gorilla x4 still doesn’t beat the dragon’s carry! That’s actually super impressive.
-
Carry weights and push/pull are not just for PCs or humanoids, otherwise horses wouldn’t work to pull a carriage; that is, their carry weight as a large creature *must* have definition for their entire purpose to work. Why even have the rules, otherwise?
-
In fair play to you, it is absurd once you get up to Gargantuan sizes; we know a Kraken is, lore wise, famous for literally pulling huge ships underwater with somewhat ease and that probably takes far, far more power to do than their push/pull weight.
MM entries are also notoriously sparse when it comes to rules. Centaurs (the playable race) have equine build, which for carry purposes is just powerful build by another name. In 3.5E all quadrupeds had something like this enhancing carrying capacity. In 5E the rules are by and large missing, so e.g. a draft horse's carrying capacity is only 540 pounds - less than an S20 Bugbear barbarian, let alone a Bear totem one. I think it's frankly reasonable to bring back the 3.5E rule that all quadrupeds have enhanced carrying capacity. Note that iirc in 3.5E the quadruped rule was a 1.5x multiplier, not a 2x multiplier, so you might want to tinker with the exact benefit you give your quadrupeds.
I do agree that giving the Huge+ size creatures something like that might be useful.
Honestly, I've just realized how weird it is Bugbears get Powerful Build. Why? Their base monster race is medium and doesnt feature that? I see the extra weapon die but meh?
The Giant Ape is squeezed inside the dragons stomach. The dragon takes two tums to curb the acid reflex. Giant Ape takes 21 acid damage per turn at the start of its turn.
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When spells that allow you to pass through things have you ending your movement inside them unintentionally, the normal thing to happen is the caster inside the solid object takes damage and is forcibly moved to the closest available free space. Based off this I'd say the wizard takes damage (reference 1d8 Kinetic jaunt) and is regurgitated out of the dragon. Hopefully the dragon isnt in flight at the time.