It depends on how you cut off visibility and your DM's interpretation of the rules for blindness - invisibility doesn't simulate blindness, but darkness does, and one of your examples was darkness.
The blindness rules state that a blind creature automatically fails any ability check that "requires" sight. There is no listed penalty for when you don't *need* sight, it's just helpful, like an opposed grapple, and no guidance is offered for which ability checks are intended to require sight.
That's the RAW; since invisibility and blindness have identical rules descriptively for these purposes (an inability to see the opponent), it would be fundamentally reasonable for a DM to treat an opposed ability check of the appropriate kind with the Blindness rules, like an ability check to visually identify an invisible creature.
I was just going over these rules last night for planning out how to have an invisible stalker murder one of my players. RAW, invisibility is of shockingly little benefit - invisible stalkers are surprisingly bad at grapples.
If someone tried to grapple an invisible creature they would first have to target a space (5 foot square area on the grid, if grids are used) and if it was not the space the invisible creature was in then there would be no contest of abilities and no chance at a grapple.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Although grapples and shoves use ability contests, you can only do them by taking the attack action.
To take the attack action against an invisible creature you need to guess where it is... unless you can detect it somehow.
If you guess wrong you miss all attacks and fail any physical contests as the target is not where you guessed.
Sometimes it pays to be invisible.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
How do you pick someone's pocket who is invisible... you can't see them... when you reach to the right, oops... they're on your left.
No problem you say as you turn from your right to your left... except they're 140 feet away.
I guess in your game everyone gets 140 reach... but at disadvantage.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
How do you pick someone's pocket who is invisible... you can't see them... when you reach to the right, oops... they're on your left.
No problem you say as you turn from your right to your left... except they're 140 feet away.
I guess in your game everyone gets 140 reach... but at disadvantage.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
First, invisible does not mean location unknown, there are a separate set of rules for that that specifically mention invisibility as not part of them.
Second, obviously impossible attempts fail automatically. Everyone knows this except you apparently. So, the fact that it is at disadvantage means it is possible and thus within reach.
It all depends on the situation as others have said.
There is a difference between invisible and unseen. And if we're having a contest to convince a dragon to go with our plan rather than someone else's plan, we can both be invisible while talking to the dragon.
Another example is if our strong character is trying to hold the door closed while the other one is trying to rip it open. We can't see each other but we can sure have a contested strength challenge.
A dexterity contest could be to snatch that thing before the other character does, although that would likely just be initiative (dex) contest.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
How do you pick someone's pocket who is invisible... you can't see them... when you reach to the right, oops... they're on your left.
No problem you say as you turn from your right to your left... except they're 140 feet away.
I guess in your game everyone gets 140 reach... but at disadvantage.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
First, invisible does not mean location unknown, there are a separate set of rules for that that specifically mention invisibility as not part of them.
Second, obviously impossible attempts fail automatically. Everyone knows this except you apparently. So, the fact that it is at disadvantage means it is possible and thus within reach.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
Invisible does not mean location known, but rather implies unknown (as they're invisible and you can't see them).
So if something has disadvantage it is automatically within reach? What about ranged attacks? They sometimes have disadvantage but that doesn't make them automatically within melee range.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
How do you pick someone's pocket who is invisible... you can't see them... when you reach to the right, oops... they're on your left.
No problem you say as you turn from your right to your left... except they're 140 feet away.
I guess in your game everyone gets 140 reach... but at disadvantage.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
First, invisible does not mean location unknown, there are a separate set of rules for that that specifically mention invisibility as not part of them.
Second, obviously impossible attempts fail automatically. Everyone knows this except you apparently. So, the fact that it is at disadvantage means it is possible and thus within reach.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
Invisible does not mean location known, but rather implies unknown (as they're invisible and you can't see them).
So if something has disadvantage it is automatically within reach? What about ranged attacks? They sometimes have disadvantage but that doesn't make them automatically within melee range.
Invisible means unseen, unseen does not mean unknown. In fact it specifically does not mean unknown in the description of invisible.
You are still willfully misinterpreting the example and I'm not going to engage with that.
Regarding hidden creatures in particular, they might lose their hidden status unless they can engage in the contest while remaining unseen and unheard.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Some aspect of the environment makes success less likely (assuming that aspect doesn’t already impose a penalty to the roll being made).
Not being able to see the target would seem to me a circumstance that would hinder success and some aspect of the environment that would make success less likely.
Are you seriously arguing that not being able to see the pocket should in no way hinder picking said pocket?
Yeah, I was referring to combat related actions at the time (grapple, shove, search). Didn't realize we had started talking about general checks until after.
Still true for saves thought.
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I just wondering how it will work if we need to make contest ability check against hidden / invisible creature.
Do we roll normally? Do the creature hidden/invisible have advantage? or Do the creature that cannot see have disadvantage?
Since in PHB Unseen Attackers and Targets only stated about attack not ability check.
Example:
Warlock with Devil Sight cast darkness and attempt to snatch the bag of holding.
Inquisitive Rogue use it action to hide then bonus action Insightful Fighting.
Wizard cast invisibility on Barbarian and that Barbarian attempt to grapple a creature while they are invisible.
Is there a rule on this that I missed?
Contest would be made normally as being invisible or hidden has no effect on ability checks.
It depends on how you cut off visibility and your DM's interpretation of the rules for blindness - invisibility doesn't simulate blindness, but darkness does, and one of your examples was darkness.
The blindness rules state that a blind creature automatically fails any ability check that "requires" sight. There is no listed penalty for when you don't *need* sight, it's just helpful, like an opposed grapple, and no guidance is offered for which ability checks are intended to require sight.
That's the RAW; since invisibility and blindness have identical rules descriptively for these purposes (an inability to see the opponent), it would be fundamentally reasonable for a DM to treat an opposed ability check of the appropriate kind with the Blindness rules, like an ability check to visually identify an invisible creature.
I was just going over these rules last night for planning out how to have an invisible stalker murder one of my players. RAW, invisibility is of shockingly little benefit - invisible stalkers are surprisingly bad at grapples.
If someone tried to grapple an invisible creature they would first have to target a space (5 foot square area on the grid, if grids are used) and if it was not the space the invisible creature was in then there would be no contest of abilities and no chance at a grapple.
Only attacks have (dis)advantage. Checks and saves are made normally unless you have a feature that says otherwise (like arcane tricksters do).
Although grapples and shoves use ability contests, you can only do them by taking the attack action.
To take the attack action against an invisible creature you need to guess where it is... unless you can detect it somehow.
If you guess wrong you miss all attacks and fail any physical contests as the target is not where you guessed.
Sometimes it pays to be invisible.
It depends on the situation.
If a pickpocket is attempting to lift the purse of an invisible target, I'd apply disadvantage from not being able to see the purse.
If a wrestler is trying to grapple the invisible target, I'd roll at normal, as grappling is mostly about physical grabbing.
If an onlooker is trying to read the body language of the invisible target, that would get a hard "nope."
How do you pick someone's pocket who is invisible... you can't see them... when you reach to the right, oops... they're on your left.
No problem you say as you turn from your right to your left... except they're 140 feet away.
I guess in your game everyone gets 140 reach... but at disadvantage.
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
First, invisible does not mean location unknown, there are a separate set of rules for that that specifically mention invisibility as not part of them.
Second, obviously impossible attempts fail automatically. Everyone knows this except you apparently. So, the fact that it is at disadvantage means it is possible and thus within reach.
It all depends on the situation as others have said.
There is a difference between invisible and unseen. And if we're having a contest to convince a dragon to go with our plan rather than someone else's plan, we can both be invisible while talking to the dragon.
Another example is if our strong character is trying to hold the door closed while the other one is trying to rip it open. We can't see each other but we can sure have a contested strength challenge.
A dexterity contest could be to snatch that thing before the other character does, although that would likely just be initiative (dex) contest.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Why do you choose to be so wrong in a futile attempt to belittle someone?
Invisible does not mean location known, but rather implies unknown (as they're invisible and you can't see them).
So if something has disadvantage it is automatically within reach? What about ranged attacks? They sometimes have disadvantage but that doesn't make them automatically within melee range.
Invisible means unseen, unseen does not mean unknown. In fact it specifically does not mean unknown in the description of invisible.
You are still willfully misinterpreting the example and I'm not going to engage with that.
Regarding hidden creatures in particular, they might lose their hidden status unless they can engage in the contest while remaining unseen and unheard.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
ditto
That's a really good point.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, I was referring to combat related actions at the time (grapple, shove, search). Didn't realize we had started talking about general checks until after.
Still true for saves thought.