Would increasing your movement speed increase your jumping distance? Was another topic brought up, as stated your jump distance is equal to your Str score given you have 10 ft. to run and jump and each ft. traveled jumping is equal to a ft. of movement meaning you cannot jump farther than your movement would allow you.
I would say yes, movement speed is more momentum, so more air time.
By using this statement, you are totally erasing the jumping limitation rules that exist, and are completely into Homebrew. There is a sub-channel for Homebrew rules. This is not that sub-channel.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.
I mean, RAW no, movement speed is irrelevant to jump distance.
Logically & realistically, movement speed is directly related to jump distance. Purely from the physics side, your horizontal velocity when you leave the floor determines how far you go, combined with how high you jump.
I think this is where the skill "Athletics" comes in. I would not expect the worlds strongest man to beat the worlds fastest man at a long jump - someone can be very good at running & jumping (proficient at athletics) without being extremely good at lifting heavy objects or bending iron bars (proficient at strength checks).
So, to make a logical means of determining jump distance, you need to combine the athletics modifier with your base movement speed. 1/3 of your movement speed plus your athletics modifier would make sense.
As for attempting to jump further - there's a difference between a 10ft run-up to a jump and the Olympic long-jump. The jumps in the dnd rules allow you to still attack or cast spells before or afterwards, so they aren't taking up your whole attention. I think that if you dash as a bonus action to increase your speed (here to 50ft) and then get a 30ft run-up, using an action to long-jump (basically all you are doing this turn is getting over the gap) then it's reasonable to allow an athletics check to see if they succeed.
As for strength = long jumping ability, here's a comparison: the worlds strongest man Eddie Hall, compared with Mike Powell, long jump world record holder (29ft. 4 1/4 in.):
I know which one I would consider to have a strength score of 30 between those two... And I also know who would have a proficiency (or double proficiency) in athletics.
Would increasing your movement speed increase your jumping distance? Was another topic brought up, as stated your jump distance is equal to your Str score given you have 10 ft. to run and jump and each ft. traveled jumping is equal to a ft. of movement meaning you cannot jump farther than your movement would allow you.
I would say yes, movement speed is more momentum, so more air time.
By using this statement, you are totally erasing the jumping limitation rules that exist, and are completely into Homebrew. There is a sub-channel for Homebrew rules. This is not that sub-channel.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.
I mean, RAW no, movement speed is irrelevant to jump distance.
Logically & realistically, movement speed is directly related to jump distance. Purely from the physics side, your horizontal velocity when you leave the floor determines how far you go, combined with how high you jump.
I think this is where the skill "Athletics" comes in. I would not expect the worlds strongest man to beat the worlds fastest man at a long jump - someone can be very good at running & jumping (proficient at athletics) without being extremely good at lifting heavy objects or bending iron bars (proficient at strength checks).
So, to make a logical means of determining jump distance, you need to combine the athletics modifier with your base movement speed. 1/3 of your movement speed plus your athletics modifier would make sense.
As for attempting to jump further - there's a difference between a 10ft run-up to a jump and the Olympic long-jump. The jumps in the dnd rules allow you to still attack or cast spells before or afterwards, so they aren't taking up your whole attention. I think that if you dash as a bonus action to increase your speed (here to 50ft) and then get a 30ft run-up, using an action to long-jump (basically all you are doing this turn is getting over the gap) then it's reasonable to allow an athletics check to see if they succeed.
As for strength = long jumping ability, here's a comparison: the worlds strongest man Eddie Hall, compared with Mike Powell, long jump world record holder (29ft. 4 1/4 in.):
I know which one I would consider to have a strength score of 30 between those two... And I also know who would have a proficiency (or double proficiency) in athletics.
I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.
I don't think this is necessarily what was being said.
By the rules in the PHB, with no additional checks a character can jump their STR score in ft if they first perform a 10ft run up. However, this is limited by their movement speed, which forms a ceiling. If they are a dwarf and are not dashing, they will be able to jump a maximum of 15ft after a 10ft run up, even with STR 16-20, because their speed is only 25ft.
I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
Well, adding to your long jump using your athletics is RAW, as it's written under the Athletics ability description - it's not explicitly laid out as hard rules, but it's clearly an expected thing to want to jump further than your strength ordinarily allows, so discussing different approaches to this is fair in this forum, I think. My favourite is still athletics roll = distance, minimum being your strength stat, and roll when you've committed to jump.
Technically, with skill checks being dealt with by setting DC and then rolling against it, the RAW way to do it is for the DM to set a DC and the player to make an athletics check to jump further (as per the athletics description in the rulebook). In this case, the DC is 20 as it's a 20ft gap. I would consider the "extra distance" to be irrelevant, as they aren't going to stop in mid-air after 6 seconds - though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
As for the squats, I would wager it's still Eddie Hall. He weighs 164kg and squatted 405kg, which is about 2.5 times his body weight. There are also two types of muscle fibers - fast twitch and slow twitch, or something like that. Lifting heavy weights is slow twitch fibers, moving fast (EG jumping) is fast-twitch. I bet if you tried to teach Eddie Hall to play the piano, he would struggle to move fast enough to do it, because his body is built out of (a lot of) slow-twitch muscle.
Also, adding the "compared with your body weight" caveat is an unnecessary addition - you don't measure who's strongest based on anything but their strength. As you said, it opens a can of worms - I would expect (from experience, being tall) that a tall person would find it much easier to jump gaps than a short person. The size of a creature should be taken into account for it, as should their weight - and then you're getting some seriously complex rules just for jumping! XD
Better to stick to the RAW and then make calls if players ask to do more.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.
I don't think this is necessarily what was being said.
By the rules in the PHB, with no additional checks a character can jump their STR score in ft if they first perform a 10ft run up. However, this is limited by their movement speed, which forms a ceiling. If they are a dwarf and are not dashing, they will be able to jump a maximum of 15ft after a 10ft run up, even with STR 16-20, because their speed is only 25ft.
Fair enough. But here comes a question for a DM. I am actually playing this char right now. He has 4 levels Halfling Scout Rogue, with a Str of 8 and a Dex of 18, as I took Squat Nimbleness as my ASI. He has Prof in both Athletics and Acrobatics., which means values of +2 and +7, respectively, and a movement of 30, not the normal 25 for a Halfling. (also has one level of fighter = 5 levels total)
I would expect the DM to adjudicate that my char can't even begin to make the leap when I say: "OK, with a 10 foot run, my char can clear a max of 20 feet in a long jump, as per the PHB. But the PHB also says my max distance is only 8 feet, because of the Str = Distance thing, so I want to parkour the additional distance".
Or better still, sub out my Halfling for a 8 Str 9th level Wood Elf Scout with a movement of 45 and an Acrobatics of +13. Should a heavily armoured char, say a Human, also with a movement of 30, but say a Str of 18, Athletics of +7, be able to make that leap with an Athletics roll, and my Wood Elf also clear it easily because the additional movement supercedes the 8 Str restriction?
Playing around with higher movement = longer jumping distance becomes problematic.
I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
Well, adding to your long jump using your athletics is RAW, as it's written under the Athletics ability description - it's not explicitly laid out as hard rules, but it's clearly an expected thing to want to jump further than your strength ordinarily allows, so discussing different approaches to this is fair in this forum, I think. My favourite is still athletics roll = distance, minimum being your strength stat, and roll when you've committed to jump.
Technically, with skill checks being dealt with by setting DC and then rolling against it, the RAW way to do it is for the DM to set a DC and the player to make an athletics check to jump further (as per the athletics description in the rulebook). In this case, the DC is 20 as it's a 20ft gap. I would consider the "extra distance" to be irrelevant, as they aren't going to stop in mid-air after 6 seconds - though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
As for the squats, I would wager it's still Eddie Hall. He weighs 164kg and squatted 405kg, which is about 2.5 times his body weight. There are also two types of muscle fibers - fast twitch and slow twitch, or something like that. Lifting heavy weights is slow twitch fibers, moving fast (EG jumping) is fast-twitch. I bet if you tried to teach Eddie Hall to play the piano, he would struggle to move fast enough to do it, because his body is built out of (a lot of) slow-twitch muscle.
Also, adding the "compared with your body weight" caveat is an unnecessary addition - you don't measure who's strongest based on anything but their strength. As you said, it opens a can of worms - I would expect (from experience, being tall) that a tall person would find it much easier to jump gaps than a short person. The size of a creature should be taken into account for it, as should their weight - and then you're getting some seriously complex rules just for jumping! XD
Better to stick to the RAW and then make calls if players ask to do more.
Yes, RAW is not perfect, but it is better than getting into some set of complex rules where maximum movement is factored in, with some kind of floors and ceilings involved based on the Str and size of the char. See my post above.
And yeah, absolute Str is something that a lot of players miss, or want to miss on purpose. Eddie Hall could tear the long jumper in two, but in the D&D world Eddie might have a Str of 20 while the long jumper is 18. Players will argue that "my long jumper can carry almost as much as Eddie". When it is clearly not true. This deals directly with certain species in D&D being bigger and stronger than other species. It goes directly to the point of "The Goliath of Str 10 is weaker than the 20 Str Halfling" that the book that shall not be named says is perfectly reasonable now.
though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
While I can see the value of not announcing the result until their next turn (some of my players would want to kill me for that, sounds like fun!), I think I would still restrict to their movement distance and not allow an "overflow" into their next turn. If they really want to jump further, they'll need to dash as far as I am concerned. That's what the dash action is there for. If they have already used their action and had no other way to increase their movement, they would be limited to their movement (after the run up) no matter what the dice say.
There may be some very specific circumstances I changed my mind on this, but not just jumping across a chasm. There would need to be a really good reason to allow it.
I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
Well, adding to your long jump using your athletics is RAW, as it's written under the Athletics ability description - it's not explicitly laid out as hard rules, but it's clearly an expected thing to want to jump further than your strength ordinarily allows, so discussing different approaches to this is fair in this forum, I think. My favourite is still athletics roll = distance, minimum being your strength stat, and roll when you've committed to jump.
Technically, with skill checks being dealt with by setting DC and then rolling against it, the RAW way to do it is for the DM to set a DC and the player to make an athletics check to jump further (as per the athletics description in the rulebook). In this case, the DC is 20 as it's a 20ft gap. I would consider the "extra distance" to be irrelevant, as they aren't going to stop in mid-air after 6 seconds - though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
As for the squats, I would wager it's still Eddie Hall. He weighs 164kg and squatted 405kg, which is about 2.5 times his body weight. There are also two types of muscle fibers - fast twitch and slow twitch, or something like that. Lifting heavy weights is slow twitch fibers, moving fast (EG jumping) is fast-twitch. I bet if you tried to teach Eddie Hall to play the piano, he would struggle to move fast enough to do it, because his body is built out of (a lot of) slow-twitch muscle.
Also, adding the "compared with your body weight" caveat is an unnecessary addition - you don't measure who's strongest based on anything but their strength. As you said, it opens a can of worms - I would expect (from experience, being tall) that a tall person would find it much easier to jump gaps than a short person. The size of a creature should be taken into account for it, as should their weight - and then you're getting some seriously complex rules just for jumping! XD
Better to stick to the RAW and then make calls if players ask to do more.
I think ThorukDuckSlayer has given a good answer. I would just like to add a few thoughts.
This is one of those cases where RAW is “the DM makes a decision”. The DM has to make a decision quickly so the game doesn’t get bogged down. They don’t have time to take everything into consideration so they must decide if it’s possible at all, merely improbable, a coin toss or has a small possibility of failure with disastrous consequences. Set the DC and then let the player decide if they want to follow through.
This isn’t homebrew or house rule in the sense of house rules change the rules. DM decides is the rule. It’s RAW. There is no one answer for what the DC should be. Each DM has to decide what is right for their campaign. There is no formula that gives you the perfect answer.
I try to be consistent with setting my DCs but you don’t have to make every jump of 20 feet a DC of 20 or whatever you decide. Maybe one time the PC has a tailwind, the next time a headwind. Maybe that “about 20 feet” is really 22 feet. DMs need to be reasonable and fair and players need to accept the decision. Otherwise, game becomes an argument about physics.
I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
Well, adding to your long jump using your athletics is RAW, as it's written under the Athletics ability description - it's not explicitly laid out as hard rules, but it's clearly an expected thing to want to jump further than your strength ordinarily allows, so discussing different approaches to this is fair in this forum, I think. My favourite is still athletics roll = distance, minimum being your strength stat, and roll when you've committed to jump.
Technically, with skill checks being dealt with by setting DC and then rolling against it, the RAW way to do it is for the DM to set a DC and the player to make an athletics check to jump further (as per the athletics description in the rulebook). In this case, the DC is 20 as it's a 20ft gap. I would consider the "extra distance" to be irrelevant, as they aren't going to stop in mid-air after 6 seconds - though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
As for the squats, I would wager it's still Eddie Hall. He weighs 164kg and squatted 405kg, which is about 2.5 times his body weight. There are also two types of muscle fibers - fast twitch and slow twitch, or something like that. Lifting heavy weights is slow twitch fibers, moving fast (EG jumping) is fast-twitch. I bet if you tried to teach Eddie Hall to play the piano, he would struggle to move fast enough to do it, because his body is built out of (a lot of) slow-twitch muscle.
Also, adding the "compared with your body weight" caveat is an unnecessary addition - you don't measure who's strongest based on anything but their strength. As you said, it opens a can of worms - I would expect (from experience, being tall) that a tall person would find it much easier to jump gaps than a short person. The size of a creature should be taken into account for it, as should their weight - and then you're getting some seriously complex rules just for jumping! XD
Better to stick to the RAW and then make calls if players ask to do more.
I think ThorukDuckSlayer has given a good answer. I would just like to add a few thoughts.
This is one of those cases where RAW is “the DM makes a decision”. The DM has to make a decision quickly so the game doesn’t get bogged down. They don’t have time to take everything into consideration so they must decide if it’s possible at all, merely improbable, a coin toss or has a small possibility of failure with disastrous consequences. Set the DC and then let the player decide if they want to follow through.
This isn’t homebrew or house rule in the sense of house rules change the rules. DM decides is the rule. It’s RAW. There is no one answer for what the DC should be. Each DM has to decide what is right for their campaign. There is no formula that gives you the perfect answer.
I try to be consistent with setting my DCs but you don’t have to make every jump of 20 feet a DC of 20 or whatever you decide. Maybe one time the PC has a tailwind, the next time a headwind. Maybe that “about 20 feet” is really 22 feet. DMs need to be reasonable and fair and players need to accept the decision. Otherwise, game becomes an argument about physics.
Ultimately this is where I have ended up on the subject but with more knowledge on how to go about explaining my line of reasoning.
I would like to add that it is not true that more movement, in and of itself means significantly more jump distance. It does not help you jump higher, at least not without a pole or something similar to leverage your momentum. You do not get to use your full momentum in a long jump since gravity is still pulling you down.
A long jump is effectively projectile geometry - one of the oldest branches of physics. It is comprised of both your horizontal velocity and your initial vertical velocity. The assumption is that your horizontal velocity remains the same (you don't speed up or slow down in mid-air) and that your vertical velocity is accelerated downwards constantly by gravity. How high you jump determines how long you're in the air for, and how fast you're going determines how far you get during that time. Jumping off of something (IE springboarding off an ally) increases airtime and so increases distance, but you've got to be going fast enough to make the airtime count!
To cut out a lot of physics explanations - the speed you're running at when you jump will be a larger factor in how far you can jump than how high you jump.
Your movement is how far you can move in 6 seconds, and your dash is theoretically your tops speed (random fact - Usain bolt's top speed gives him a dash movement of 240ft, being a movement of 120ft! that or he's a monk...). How fast you can run is definitely going to determine the distance you can jump. an easy way of evidencing this is to go outside and do some jumping - from a standstill, from a walk, from a jog, from a sprint - and see how much further you get each time.
I would like to add that it is not true that more movement, in and of itself means significantly more jump distance. It does not help you jump higher, at least not without a pole or something similar to leverage your momentum. You do not get to use your full momentum in a long jump since gravity is still pulling you down.
A long jump is effectively projectile geometry - one of the oldest branches of physics. It is comprised of both your horizontal velocity and your initial vertical velocity. The assumption is that your horizontal velocity remains the same (you don't speed up or slow down in mid-air) and that your vertical velocity is accelerated downwards constantly by gravity. How high you jump determines how long you're in the air for, and how fast you're going determines how far you get during that time. Jumping off of something (IE springboarding off an ally) increases airtime and so increases distance, but you've got to be going fast enough to make the airtime count!
To cut out a lot of physics explanations - the speed you're running at when you jump will be a larger factor in how far you can jump than how high you jump.
Your movement is how far you can move in 6 seconds, and your dash is theoretically your tops speed (random fact - Usain bolt's top speed gives him a dash movement of 240ft, being a movement of 120ft! that or he's a monk...). How fast you can run is definitely going to determine the distance you can jump. an easy way of evidencing this is to go outside and do some jumping - from a standstill, from a walk, from a jog, from a sprint - and see how much further you get each time.
You may not slow down in midair, but you are nevertheless constantly being pulled downward. Normally your feet are pushing against the ground keeping you up. Normal running is not flying.
Usain Bolt holds no long jump records, despite his much higher ground speed
That said, the record long jumps going back to 1901 are all over 20' so it is clearly possible with normal athletic skill. The current record is over 29'
Horizontal speed is a large factor, but not the only factor, as Thoruk pointed out (and I've bolded in the above quote).
So, in the real world speed does make a large difference. Given the same initial vertical speed (roughly proportional to the maximum height you can jump), double the speed will lead to double the distance.
That said, based on some rough calcs using the high jump mechanics, the basic long jump mechanics already exceed the values for a "ballistic" jump by a significant margin (20-80% more) unless I've made a significant mistake, so I'd suggest increasing the jump distance based on speed is not the right way to go.
I’m not a fan of the jump distance RAW for several reasons
1) they are too set and exact. Players know exactly how long they can jump and it’s the same every time. That sucks all the drama, risk, and fun of making a jump in a tense situation. That being said, I allow players a chance to increase jump distance with either a Str/athletics roll OR a Dex/Acro roll. It’s is not entirely RAW but I think you should allow your player a chance. Set the DC by the extra amount they need to clear. 13’ to 20’ is pushing it so I’d make it a Hard or Very Hard DC. My advice is go with whatever is going to up the stakes and result in the most fun. Telling the player “no you can jump exactly 13’ and no more. So don’t even try” is not fun. 2) with RAW a Dwarf fighter in heavy plate is usually out long jumping an Elf rogue acrobat in light or no armor. That sux having rogues, monks, and rangers with running long jumps of 8-10 feet. I could do that with a standing jump. It’s a bit silly and not very cinematic. For this reason I house-rule it that IF you are proficient in acrobatics, you can substitute Str for your Dex value when it comes to calculating long jumps. It works out well since monks and rogues get decent jumps but a high Dex Wizard isn’t benefiting much since it is unlikely they will have acrobatics.
RAI: Probably give a roll to go extra, lower DC if they are very fast.
RAF: Is it a one time heroic stunt? Sure, make a roll. Are they looking to just have a cool jump distance? Maybe: Make a roll. Bonus for faster speed. Rule of thumb DC increases by [2 x Distance in feet] or more depending on how one wants to rule it.
The rules in 5e for some of these mechanic are known to be lacking. WoTC encourages the DM's to flesh them out to make it work for their campaigns.
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
I like this idea, but I think it should have a cap... as is, a character with a 9 STR and no proficiency in Athletics could roll a Nat 19 and double his jump distance... Which to me seems extreme even for a heroic effort... I would cap the extra distance at half the STR score.. the above dwarf with a 13 STR would then be able to clear up to 19.5 feet with a good roll (19 or 20 if you round down/up), mayhap resulting in another check to see which way he tumbles... forward onto the ground, or back into the Abyss. And on a poor roll, well, I'm picturing the gators at the bottom of the canyon in Indiana Jones...
Stop being so rule dependent. It stops game flow. If it isn't crazy just do a check. Him failing the roll could add some more fun to the situation. Or teach him a lesson on attempting things beyond his skill.
Enjoy.
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I mean, RAW no, movement speed is irrelevant to jump distance.
Logically & realistically, movement speed is directly related to jump distance. Purely from the physics side, your horizontal velocity when you leave the floor determines how far you go, combined with how high you jump.
I think this is where the skill "Athletics" comes in. I would not expect the worlds strongest man to beat the worlds fastest man at a long jump - someone can be very good at running & jumping (proficient at athletics) without being extremely good at lifting heavy objects or bending iron bars (proficient at strength checks).
So, to make a logical means of determining jump distance, you need to combine the athletics modifier with your base movement speed. 1/3 of your movement speed plus your athletics modifier would make sense.
As for attempting to jump further - there's a difference between a 10ft run-up to a jump and the Olympic long-jump. The jumps in the dnd rules allow you to still attack or cast spells before or afterwards, so they aren't taking up your whole attention. I think that if you dash as a bonus action to increase your speed (here to 50ft) and then get a 30ft run-up, using an action to long-jump (basically all you are doing this turn is getting over the gap) then it's reasonable to allow an athletics check to see if they succeed.
As for strength = long jumping ability, here's a comparison: the worlds strongest man Eddie Hall, compared with Mike Powell, long jump world record holder (29ft. 4 1/4 in.):
I know which one I would consider to have a strength score of 30 between those two... And I also know who would have a proficiency (or double proficiency) in athletics.
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I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to factor more of reality into purely physical aspects of the game, which is what I have done in my game. But once again, as soon as you say "in general, more movement = longer jumping distances", you are into Homebrew, and there is an entire sub-channel devoted to that. My House Rules for Jumping and Grappling are Homebrew, and I should not discuss them in the Rule and Mechanics channel.
But, as a separate point, which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, I would very much like to see which two of those guys above can squat more weight as a multiple of their body weight.
I don't think this is necessarily what was being said.
By the rules in the PHB, with no additional checks a character can jump their STR score in ft if they first perform a 10ft run up. However, this is limited by their movement speed, which forms a ceiling. If they are a dwarf and are not dashing, they will be able to jump a maximum of 15ft after a 10ft run up, even with STR 16-20, because their speed is only 25ft.
Well, adding to your long jump using your athletics is RAW, as it's written under the Athletics ability description - it's not explicitly laid out as hard rules, but it's clearly an expected thing to want to jump further than your strength ordinarily allows, so discussing different approaches to this is fair in this forum, I think. My favourite is still athletics roll = distance, minimum being your strength stat, and roll when you've committed to jump.
Technically, with skill checks being dealt with by setting DC and then rolling against it, the RAW way to do it is for the DM to set a DC and the player to make an athletics check to jump further (as per the athletics description in the rulebook). In this case, the DC is 20 as it's a 20ft gap. I would consider the "extra distance" to be irrelevant, as they aren't going to stop in mid-air after 6 seconds - though you might add to the suspense by not telling them the DC, and then saying "you leap out over the void, and you're halfway over when your turn ends. We'll finish this jump on your next turn - next player...", so they don't get free movement in combat and have no idea if they made it or not! Or have them land and deduct the extra movement (in this case 5ft) from their next turn.
As for the squats, I would wager it's still Eddie Hall. He weighs 164kg and squatted 405kg, which is about 2.5 times his body weight. There are also two types of muscle fibers - fast twitch and slow twitch, or something like that. Lifting heavy weights is slow twitch fibers, moving fast (EG jumping) is fast-twitch. I bet if you tried to teach Eddie Hall to play the piano, he would struggle to move fast enough to do it, because his body is built out of (a lot of) slow-twitch muscle.
Also, adding the "compared with your body weight" caveat is an unnecessary addition - you don't measure who's strongest based on anything but their strength. As you said, it opens a can of worms - I would expect (from experience, being tall) that a tall person would find it much easier to jump gaps than a short person. The size of a creature should be taken into account for it, as should their weight - and then you're getting some seriously complex rules just for jumping! XD
Better to stick to the RAW and then make calls if players ask to do more.
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Fair enough. But here comes a question for a DM. I am actually playing this char right now. He has 4 levels Halfling Scout Rogue, with a Str of 8 and a Dex of 18, as I took Squat Nimbleness as my ASI. He has Prof in both Athletics and Acrobatics., which means values of +2 and +7, respectively, and a movement of 30, not the normal 25 for a Halfling. (also has one level of fighter = 5 levels total)
I would expect the DM to adjudicate that my char can't even begin to make the leap when I say: "OK, with a 10 foot run, my char can clear a max of 20 feet in a long jump, as per the PHB. But the PHB also says my max distance is only 8 feet, because of the Str = Distance thing, so I want to parkour the additional distance".
Or better still, sub out my Halfling for a 8 Str 9th level Wood Elf Scout with a movement of 45 and an Acrobatics of +13. Should a heavily armoured char, say a Human, also with a movement of 30, but say a Str of 18, Athletics of +7, be able to make that leap with an Athletics roll, and my Wood Elf also clear it easily because the additional movement supercedes the 8 Str restriction?
Playing around with higher movement = longer jumping distance becomes problematic.
Yes, RAW is not perfect, but it is better than getting into some set of complex rules where maximum movement is factored in, with some kind of floors and ceilings involved based on the Str and size of the char. See my post above.
And yeah, absolute Str is something that a lot of players miss, or want to miss on purpose. Eddie Hall could tear the long jumper in two, but in the D&D world Eddie might have a Str of 20 while the long jumper is 18. Players will argue that "my long jumper can carry almost as much as Eddie". When it is clearly not true. This deals directly with certain species in D&D being bigger and stronger than other species. It goes directly to the point of "The Goliath of Str 10 is weaker than the 20 Str Halfling" that the book that shall not be named says is perfectly reasonable now.
While I can see the value of not announcing the result until their next turn (some of my players would want to kill me for that, sounds like fun!), I think I would still restrict to their movement distance and not allow an "overflow" into their next turn. If they really want to jump further, they'll need to dash as far as I am concerned. That's what the dash action is there for. If they have already used their action and had no other way to increase their movement, they would be limited to their movement (after the run up) no matter what the dice say.
There may be some very specific circumstances I changed my mind on this, but not just jumping across a chasm. There would need to be a really good reason to allow it.
I think ThorukDuckSlayer has given a good answer. I would just like to add a few thoughts.
This is one of those cases where RAW is “the DM makes a decision”. The DM has to make a decision quickly so the game doesn’t get bogged down. They don’t have time to take everything into consideration so they must decide if it’s possible at all, merely improbable, a coin toss or has a small possibility of failure with disastrous consequences. Set the DC and then let the player decide if they want to follow through.
This isn’t homebrew or house rule in the sense of house rules change the rules. DM decides is the rule. It’s RAW. There is no one answer for what the DC should be. Each DM has to decide what is right for their campaign. There is no formula that gives you the perfect answer.
I try to be consistent with setting my DCs but you don’t have to make every jump of 20 feet a DC of 20 or whatever you decide. Maybe one time the PC has a tailwind, the next time a headwind. Maybe that “about 20 feet” is really 22 feet. DMs need to be reasonable and fair and players need to accept the decision. Otherwise, game becomes an argument about physics.
Ultimately this is where I have ended up on the subject but with more knowledge on how to go about explaining my line of reasoning.
A long jump is effectively projectile geometry - one of the oldest branches of physics. It is comprised of both your horizontal velocity and your initial vertical velocity. The assumption is that your horizontal velocity remains the same (you don't speed up or slow down in mid-air) and that your vertical velocity is accelerated downwards constantly by gravity. How high you jump determines how long you're in the air for, and how fast you're going determines how far you get during that time. Jumping off of something (IE springboarding off an ally) increases airtime and so increases distance, but you've got to be going fast enough to make the airtime count!
To cut out a lot of physics explanations - the speed you're running at when you jump will be a larger factor in how far you can jump than how high you jump.
Your movement is how far you can move in 6 seconds, and your dash is theoretically your tops speed (random fact - Usain bolt's top speed gives him a dash movement of 240ft, being a movement of 120ft! that or he's a monk...). How fast you can run is definitely going to determine the distance you can jump. an easy way of evidencing this is to go outside and do some jumping - from a standstill, from a walk, from a jog, from a sprint - and see how much further you get each time.
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Horizontal speed is a large factor, but not the only factor, as Thoruk pointed out (and I've bolded in the above quote).
So, in the real world speed does make a large difference. Given the same initial vertical speed (roughly proportional to the maximum height you can jump), double the speed will lead to double the distance.
That said, based on some rough calcs using the high jump mechanics, the basic long jump mechanics already exceed the values for a "ballistic" jump by a significant margin (20-80% more) unless I've made a significant mistake, so I'd suggest increasing the jump distance based on speed is not the right way to go.
I’m not a fan of the jump distance RAW for several reasons
1) they are too set and exact. Players know exactly how long they can jump and it’s the same every time. That sucks all the drama, risk, and fun of making a jump in a tense situation. That being said, I allow players a chance to increase jump distance with either a Str/athletics roll OR a Dex/Acro roll. It’s is not entirely RAW but I think you should allow your player a chance. Set the DC by the extra amount they need to clear. 13’ to 20’ is pushing it so I’d make it a Hard or Very Hard DC. My advice is go with whatever is going to up the stakes and result in the most fun. Telling the player “no you can jump exactly 13’ and no more. So don’t even try” is not fun.
2) with RAW a Dwarf fighter in heavy plate is usually out long jumping an Elf rogue acrobat in light or no armor. That sux having rogues, monks, and rangers with running long jumps of 8-10 feet. I could do that with a standing jump. It’s a bit silly and not very cinematic. For this reason I house-rule it that IF you are proficient in acrobatics, you can substitute Str for your Dex value when it comes to calculating long jumps. It works out well since monks and rogues get decent jumps but a high Dex Wizard isn’t benefiting much since it is unlikely they will have acrobatics.
RAW: Jumping
RAI: Probably give a roll to go extra, lower DC if they are very fast.
RAF: Is it a one time heroic stunt? Sure, make a roll. Are they looking to just have a cool jump distance? Maybe: Make a roll. Bonus for faster speed. Rule of thumb DC increases by [2 x Distance in feet] or more depending on how one wants to rule it.
The rules in 5e for some of these mechanic are known to be lacking. WoTC encourages the DM's to flesh them out to make it work for their campaigns.
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
I like this idea, but I think it should have a cap... as is, a character with a 9 STR and no proficiency in Athletics could roll a Nat 19 and double his jump distance... Which to me seems extreme even for a heroic effort... I would cap the extra distance at half the STR score.. the above dwarf with a 13 STR would then be able to clear up to 19.5 feet with a good roll (19 or 20 if you round down/up), mayhap resulting in another check to see which way he tumbles... forward onto the ground, or back into the Abyss. And on a poor roll, well, I'm picturing the gators at the bottom of the canyon in Indiana Jones...
Stop being so rule dependent. It stops game flow. If it isn't crazy just do a check. Him failing the roll could add some more fun to the situation. Or teach him a lesson on attempting things beyond his skill.
Enjoy.