I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
Example, the party of adventurers is walking down a trail that eventually passes through our ambush point. Lurking there, are several kobolds waiting to ambush them.
Do I check passive perception vs the kobold stealth checks when the party first has line of sight to the squares of the kobolds? And, assuming the party fails, then have the same process repeat when they reach the ambush point and the kobolds attack to determine surprise?
I've been told I only check when they reach the ambush point to determine surprise. But that seems wrong, because they should have had the opportunity to spot them before getting to the exact spot the kobolds wanted them to in the first place.
Thoughts? In this example, how far away does detecting a stealthed attacker start? Is it immediately if your senses could perceive them that your passive perception might detect a hidden creature, or much closer when you're already next to them and they attack you? Or, both with two difference stealth rolls? (One for hiding and one for determining surprise.) Clarification would be appreciated.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
Example, the party of adventurers is walking down a trail that eventually passes through our ambush point. Lurking there, are several kobolds waiting to ambush them.
Do I check passive perception vs the kobold stealth checks when the party first has line of sight to the squares of the kobolds? And, assuming the party fails, then have the same process repeat when they reach the ambush point and the kobolds attack to determine surprise?
I've been told I only check when they reach the ambush point to determine surprise. But that seems wrong, because they should have had the opportunity to spot them before getting to the exact spot the kobolds wanted them to in the first place.
Thoughts? In this example, how far away does detecting a stealthed attacker start? Is it immediately if your senses could perceive them that your passive perception might detect a hidden creature, or much closer when you're already next to them and they attack you? Or, both with two difference stealth rolls? (One for hiding and one for determining surprise.) Clarification would be appreciated.
A lot of the perception rules you might expect are missing - for example, unlike in previous editions, I can't quote you any guidance on how to penalize Perception for distance. I *can* quote you a bunch of oft-ignored rules (my current DM rejects most of them out of hand because he loves it when math rocks go clickety-clack, so I just about always roll when passive is what the rules call for.
Here's the short version:
If the party has LOS on the kobolds, in theory it's too late to roll stealth, but you're the DM, you can rewind time because you forgot. In principle, if the kobolds decide to move stealthily, they roll stealth up front, before anyone has LOS on anyone. There are no rules for distance penalties to Perception in 5E, which is why spyglasses aren't highly sought after.
Yes, you compare the stealth of the kobolds to the passive Perception of the players to see if they notice. The PCs can actively roll Perception to check something out, but without a reason to, it won't occur to them to demand a roll on literally everything all the time forever - and you don't want them to.
There's no guidance I've found anywhere on re-rolling ability checks other than "ask the DM", which doesn't help you. It's just plain up to you if you want the kobolds to re-roll for the second encounter, or maintain the same set of rolls (which will make the PCs autofail, if they all failed the first time). I would argue you should only make them roll again if circumstances have genuinely changed, like if the party was napping the first time but is awake the second time.
I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
Example, the party of adventurers is walking down a trail that eventually passes through our ambush point. Lurking there, are several kobolds waiting to ambush them.
Do I check passive perception vs the kobold stealth checks when the party first has line of sight to the squares of the kobolds? And, assuming the party fails, then have the same process repeat when they reach the ambush point and the kobolds attack to determine surprise?
I've been told I only check when they reach the ambush point to determine surprise. But that seems wrong, because they should have had the opportunity to spot them before getting to the exact spot the kobolds wanted them to in the first place.
Thoughts? In this example, how far away does detecting a stealthed attacker start? Is it immediately if your senses could perceive them that your passive perception might detect a hidden creature, or much closer when you're already next to them and they attack you? Or, both with two difference stealth rolls? (One for hiding and one for determining surprise.) Clarification would be appreciated.
A lot of the perception rules you might expect are missing - for example, unlike in previous editions, I can't quote you any guidance on how to penalize Perception for distance. I *can* quote you a bunch of oft-ignored rules (my current DM rejects most of them out of hand because he loves it when math rocks go clickety-clack, so I just about always roll when passive is what the rules call for.
Here's the short version:
If the party has LOS on the kobolds, in theory it's too late to roll stealth, but you're the DM, you can rewind time because you forgot. In principle, if the kobolds decide to move stealthily, they roll stealth up front, before anyone has LOS on anyone. There are no rules for distance penalties to Perception in 5E, which is why spyglasses aren't highly sought after.
Yes, you compare the stealth of the kobolds to the passive Perception of the players to see if they notice. The PCs can actively roll Perception to check something out, but without a reason to, it won't occur to them to demand a roll on literally everything all the time forever - and you don't want them to.
There's no guidance I've found anywhere on re-rolling ability checks other than "ask the DM", which doesn't help you. It's just plain up to you if you want the kobolds to re-roll for the second encounter, or maintain the same set of rolls (which will make the PCs autofail, if they all failed the first time). I would argue you should only make them roll again if circumstances have genuinely changed, like if the party was napping the first time but is awake the second time.
Thanks for replying.
In the example, the kobolds would be hiding already. We would check their stealth checks vs the party's perceptions. Assuming the party failed and did not spot the kobolds at this point, then they would continue to approach, because they haven't noticed anything. Once the party gets to the exact ambush spot the kobolds are waiting for, they attack, which, would then prompt a 2nd stealth check to determine if they surprised the party.
This is the hypothetical, all one string of events. Not multiple encounters. But I'm just not sure if this second check is right or not. I suspect it is, but have been told you only do one. But, I can't figure out how to make it work with only one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
Example, the party of adventurers is walking down a trail that eventually passes through our ambush point. Lurking there, are several kobolds waiting to ambush them.
Do I check passive perception vs the kobold stealth checks when the party first has line of sight to the squares of the kobolds? And, assuming the party fails, then have the same process repeat when they reach the ambush point and the kobolds attack to determine surprise?
I've been told I only check when they reach the ambush point to determine surprise. But that seems wrong, because they should have had the opportunity to spot them before getting to the exact spot the kobolds wanted them to in the first place.
Thoughts? In this example, how far away does detecting a stealthed attacker start? Is it immediately if your senses could perceive them that your passive perception might detect a hidden creature, or much closer when you're already next to them and they attack you? Or, both with two difference stealth rolls? (One for hiding and one for determining surprise.) Clarification would be appreciated.
A lot of the perception rules you might expect are missing - for example, unlike in previous editions, I can't quote you any guidance on how to penalize Perception for distance. I *can* quote you a bunch of oft-ignored rules (my current DM rejects most of them out of hand because he loves it when math rocks go clickety-clack, so I just about always roll when passive is what the rules call for.
Here's the short version:
If the party has LOS on the kobolds, in theory it's too late to roll stealth, but you're the DM, you can rewind time because you forgot. In principle, if the kobolds decide to move stealthily, they roll stealth up front, before anyone has LOS on anyone. There are no rules for distance penalties to Perception in 5E, which is why spyglasses aren't highly sought after.
Yes, you compare the stealth of the kobolds to the passive Perception of the players to see if they notice. The PCs can actively roll Perception to check something out, but without a reason to, it won't occur to them to demand a roll on literally everything all the time forever - and you don't want them to.
There's no guidance I've found anywhere on re-rolling ability checks other than "ask the DM", which doesn't help you. It's just plain up to you if you want the kobolds to re-roll for the second encounter, or maintain the same set of rolls (which will make the PCs autofail, if they all failed the first time). I would argue you should only make them roll again if circumstances have genuinely changed, like if the party was napping the first time but is awake the second time.
Thanks for replying.
In the example, the kobolds would be hiding already. We would check their stealth checks vs the party's perceptions. Assuming the party failed and did not spot the kobolds at this point, then they would continue to approach, because they haven't noticed anything. Once the party gets to the exact ambush spot the kobolds are waiting for, they attack, which, would then prompt a 2nd stealth check to determine if they surprised the party.
This is the hypothetical, all one string of events. Not multiple encounters. But I'm just not sure if this second check is right or not. I suspect it is, but have been told you only do one. But, I can't figure out how to make it work with only one.
Keep in mind, some party members might discern the Kobold's, and others not. Let's assume you rolled the Kobold's Stealth as a group, and came up with a 15. Any char that has a Passive Perception of 15 will discern the Kobold's and say "hey, that looks like a trap", and alert the party, and then whatever happens, happens.
Now, if the highest Passive Perception in the party is 14, then no one in the party sees them, the party walks into a trap, and the Kobold's WILL have Surprise. No 2nd roll is needed.
My 5th Edition Core Rules Boxed Set included a handy-dandy four panel DM's Screen. Inside was a chart labeled Encounter Distance. It gives ranges, in feet, by terrain type, at which opponents could perceive each other. You could roll dice to determine the range. There is even a few lines for range of detection via hearing, depending on what measures were being made to keep quiet. I would have sworn it was in the Player's Handbook, but I surely cannot find it. Nor in the DMG. I've searched the D&D Beyond website and found nothing close. I even tried Google, with various keywords and nope. Nothing.
Near as I understand the rules, if the Kobolds know the party is coming, and have time to prepare, they can get under cover to prevent direct line of sight and set up an ambush. They make a single check for Stealth.
When the party comes into detection range, they get a single check against the highest passive perception any of the characters in the party has. What that range might be I cannot say. It will be entirely up to the DM. Combat begins when the DM decides it does. It goes like this:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
That all seems clear enough. It's pretty much straight out of the Player's Handbook. Once any of the Kobolds makes an attack, none of them may be considered hidden. There is no need to make another Stealth Check unless one or more of the Kobolds takes their Action to Hide.
From there the Rules and Mechanics become very confusing. Can a Kobold who has not attacked move back out of detection range and return, make a Stealth check and get Surprise? Can more Kobolds show up and try to sneak up on the party? Do they get to make Stealth checks too? What happens if the Kobold who had the highest Initiative decides to change their mind and not attack after all?
Hopefully someone else has the answers. I've seen these subjects debated at great length, in multiple threads that go on for page after page. If you think things are puzzling now, wait until it is your players who want to set up the ambush. The rules under which an Assassin can get full use of their ability to automatically get a Critical Hit causes all sorts of chaos in the forums. Jeremey Crawford will be brought up and that starts a firestorm.
Generally, you should only roll a skill check once per instance of using that skill. So in this case, a single stealth check should last until you stop sneaking.
So in this example, if the kobolds were hidden before entering line of sight, they should have already made a stealth check (even if you didn't prepare it before hand and rolled it only as soon as it was needed), and they stick with that stealth for determining surprise if the party approaches the ambush spot (noticed or otherwise).
Generally, you should only roll a skill check once per instance of using that skill. So in this case, a single stealth check should last until you stop sneaking.
So in this example, if the kobolds were hidden before entering line of sight, they should have already made a stealth check (even if you didn't prepare it before hand and rolled it only as soon as it was needed), and they stick with that stealth for determining surprise if the party approaches the ambush spot (noticed or otherwise).
Yes, this is exactly what I've been told. But...
Assume they fail that check and the PCs spot them.
Now we have a problem, because, if the PCs spotted them, why did they walk haplessly into the ambush chokepoint?
And, if they did see them and didn't wander into the ambush chokepoint, why do the rules tell us to check for stealth/surprise at the start of combat?
Really, it boils down to how can a single instance of stealth vs perception result in complying with start of encounter rules and also spot the hidden enemies when they come into view? Those are two different and mutually exclusive set of results from a single check.
Possible Sequence Results:
A. Check stealth v perception when they have los to kobolds, party fails and continues to chokepoint. Start of combat encounter. Rules say to check stealth again for surprise. Anyone who fails is surprised on round one.
B. Check stealth at los distance but party succeeds and never reaches the chokepoint, either they can attack, run, etc and the ambush is spoiled.
I don't know how to do sequence A with only a single stealth check?
Excerpt from starting encounters:
If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
Now, would this be a new check, or are we saying this is supposed to be the same result from when they first started hiding? And, if so, doesn't this mean that any party who fails to notice a threat at hundreds of feet away also is unable to notice that threat as it is firing crossbows at them from 15 ft away?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
No, on this the rules are extremely clear: "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total..."
However, when that check is compared to the PP, you might take into account the fact that, when the party is far, the lobolds have advantage on hiding (because of the circumstances of their hiding place, or simply the distance), or the party has disadvantage on PP (because of the noise they are making, or simply the distance) or both, which might actually make the check succeed until one of the other conditions is lifted.
This means that you know exactly when the kobolds might be detected, at long range, not at all, or at some intermediate range when you decide that one of the circumstances above does no longer apply. Extremely simple, very fast to solve, and very few rolls.
Thank you! THIS is exactly what I as missing. Advantage and disadvantage modify passive perception by 5!
If we assume they have disadvantage at a distance but not right at the start of the encounter, it creates the possibility for the missing outcome of: getting ambushed but some people not being surprised.
And so now ends the era where I gave my players two chances to not get surprised rofl. Thanks!
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Generally, you should only roll a skill check once per instance of using that skill. So in this case, a single stealth check should last until you stop sneaking.
So in this example, if the kobolds were hidden before entering line of sight, they should have already made a stealth check (even if you didn't prepare it before hand and rolled it only as soon as it was needed), and they stick with that stealth for determining surprise if the party approaches the ambush spot (noticed or otherwise).
Yes, this is exactly what I've been told. But...
Assume they fail that check and the PCs spot them.
Now we have a problem, because, if the PCs spotted them, why did they walk haplessly into the ambush chokepoint?
That sounds like a question for your players. Plus sometimes character go into what they know is a trap prepared for the trap.
And, if they did see them and didn't wander into the ambush chokepoint, why do the rules tell us to check for stealth/surprise at the start of combat?
Really, it boils down to how can a single instance of stealth vs perception result in complying with start of encounter rules and also spot the hidden enemies when they come into view? Those are two different and mutually exclusive set of results from a single check.
I don't see the issue. You can compare a previously rolled stealth checks at the start of combat just like the rules and don't have to roll new ones (in fact shouldn't roll new ones because of the whole "not a new hide attempt" thing).
They are different rules but very not mutually exclusive.
Now, would this be a new check, or are we saying this is supposed to be the same result from when they first started hiding? And, if so, doesn't this mean that any party who fails to notice a threat at hundreds of feet away also is unable to notice that threat as it is firing crossbows at them from 15 ft away?
Let me ask you something. Did how well the kobolds are hidden change between the party being hundreds of feet away and the party moving into the chokepoint? Probably not, so the stealth roll shouldn't be different either. Now the party would have a harder time spotting them from a distance, so that could be represented by -5 to passive perception which gets added back when less than 100 feet. And the party will definitely notice the crossbows, but by then initiative would have started with them surprised.
Generally, you should only roll a skill check once per instance of using that skill. So in this case, a single stealth check should last until you stop sneaking.
So in this example, if the kobolds were hidden before entering line of sight, they should have already made a stealth check (even if you didn't prepare it before hand and rolled it only as soon as it was needed), and they stick with that stealth for determining surprise if the party approaches the ambush spot (noticed or otherwise).
Yes, this is exactly what I've been told. But...
Assume they fail that check and the PCs spot them.
Now we have a problem, because, if the PCs spotted them, why did they walk haplessly into the ambush chokepoint?
That sounds like a question for your players. Plus sometimes character go into what they know is a trap prepared for the trap.
... ? I'm not sure you understand what I was asking. I might not have been clear, so that's understandable.
And, if they did see them and didn't wander into the ambush chokepoint, why do the rules tell us to check for stealth/surprise at the start of combat?
Really, it boils down to how can a single instance of stealth vs perception result in complying with start of encounter rules and also spot the hidden enemies when they come into view? Those are two different and mutually exclusive set of results from a single check.
I don't see the issue. You can compare a previously rolled stealth checks at the start of combat just like the rules and don't have to roll new ones (in fact shouldn't roll new ones because of the whole "not a new hide attempt" thing).
They are different rules but very not mutually exclusive.
So, the issue I had is that I believe there is more than 2 possible outcomes. The players should have the opportunity to spot the ambush well in advance of reaching the chokepoint, and before combat. But if that was the case why do the combat rules also prompt to role stealth vs perception when the combat itself starts if we already know if they see them or not.
There should be these possible outcomes:
Party doesn't see them, ambush surprise them on round one.
Party doesn't see them, but aren't all surprised at start of combat.
Party sees them before combat and reacts.
But, with just a single static stealth vs perception you cannot reach all three of those results. I was missing something, and instead 'fixing' it with the second stealth role. But what I wasn't considering, as Lyxen pointed out, was advantage/disadvantage as the situation changes. That is the missing piece.
Now, would this be a new check, or are we saying this is supposed to be the same result from when they first started hiding? And, if so, doesn't this mean that any party who fails to notice a threat at hundreds of feet away also is unable to notice that threat as it is firing crossbows at them from 15 ft away?
Let me ask you something. Did how well the kobolds are hidden change between the party being hundreds of feet away and the party moving into the chokepoint?
Yes absolutely. Of course it does. They're attacking.
Combat starts when someone attacks. That would absolutely change how well they're hidden. Especially for a group all trying to coordinate a simultaneous attack. There would need to be some kind of signal to strike.
I'd give the party disadvantage on perception while far, normal when closer, and advantage at the start of combat check because of the attack signal and rustling of them starting their attack. This gives the diverse range of outcomes I am looking for without having to use multiple rolls. Its perfect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There’s also the possibility that you determine there is no chance of spotting the ambush from 100ft away due to foliage, angles, hiding positions etc.
Usually a good idea not to host your ambush if it can be spotted a (non-literal) mile off after all.
So, the issue I had is that I believe there is more than 2 possible outcomes. The players should have the opportunity to spot the ambush well in advance of reaching the chokepoint, and before combat. But if that was the case why do the combat rules also prompt to role stealth vs perception when the combat itself starts if we already know if they see them or not.
There should be these possible outcomes:
Party doesn't see them, ambush surprise them on round one.
Party doesn't see them, but aren't all surprised at start of combat.
Party sees them before combat and reacts.
But, with just a single static stealth vs perception you cannot reach all three of those results. I was missing something, and instead 'fixing' it with the second stealth role. But what I wasn't considering, as Lyxen pointed out, was advantage/disadvantage as the situation changes. That is the missing piece.
The combat rules don't prompt a stealth roll. It never says "make a stealth check" in the surprise rules. The DM compares (an existing) stealth roll to passive perception in order to determine who is surprised. That is all it does.
All 3 of those still happen. Individual members of the party get surprised, not all or nothing. You can also use disadvantage and advantage on passive perception like I said as they get closer. But otherwise, there is no reason the kobold who rolled a 25 stealth when they hid should get noticed without an active search at any distance.
Also, active searches exist, so PCs can roll perception to see if they roll higher than their passive.
Let me ask you something. Did how well the kobolds are hidden change between the party being hundreds of feet away and the party moving into the chokepoint? Probably not, so the stealth roll shouldn't be different either. Now the party would have a harder time spotting them from a distance, so that could be represented by -5 to passive perception which gets added back when less than 100 feet. And the party will definitely notice the crossbows, but by then initiative would have started with them surprised.
Yes absolutely. Of course it does. They're attacking.
Combat starts when someone attacks. That would absolutely change how well they're hidden. Especially for a group all trying to coordinate a simultaneous attack. There would need to be some kind of signal to strike.
I'd give the party disadvantage on perception while far, normal when closer, and advantage at the start of combat check because of the attack signal and rustling of them starting their attack. This gives the diverse range of outcomes I am looking for without having to use multiple rolls. Its perfect.
They don't attack before their turn. If you are not rolling initiative until after the ambush has made their first wave of attacks, then you are already using a house rule surprise mechanic.
Combat necessarily has to start before someone actually attacks. It starts basically as soon as either party is ready to strike, before said strike.
Surprise is already hard to get RAW, because you can't have a single member of an entire group roll low on stealth. It does not need to be further weakened by making every member have to roll well on stealth twice with a +5 to the DC of the second check.
And of course, they stop being hidden after attacking. Which will be on their turn. Which will be after rolling initiative. Which will be after determining surprise. Which will be after when combat actually starts.
There could be times where the pc’s might not be able to get LOS on the ambush, like a corner of a corridor. But in the end, in your example, the kobolds roll stealth check. As the party approaches you compare their passive perception to the stealth roll. If the check fails the party wanders into the ambush and is surprised. If one or more beats the stealth roll there is no surprise if they alert their party.
it’s up to the DM to decide when to do the passive perception check. There could be times that they party doesn’t get one until too late and only the ones who beat the stealth check can react. So if you determine that there is no way for the party to perceive the Ki Alda until they are in the ambush zone then you compare stealth to PP of each character, roll initiative, the ones who fail the PP are surprised and cannot act in round 1, the ones who pass the PP can act by initiative order.
edit. Maybe the foliage is too dense and between that, the wind, the animals, a stream or river noises or other woodland noises they don’t perceive until they get too close
Sorry I should have been more clear. When I said LOS I just meant in their range of perception. You are correct if they could see them there is no surprise. On the open plains you might see someone a mile away but you wouldn’t be able to hear their footsteps or in a twisting corridor you might be unable to see more than a couple dozen feet due to a turn in the hallway but could hear footsteps two rooms away if it was a tile floor and hard sole shoes with no attempt at stealth.
Yes, the surprise is individually determined, I just assumed if at least one noticed, from a distance, they would inform the rest and alert the party. Unless they’re being a d**k.
They don't attack before their turn. If you are not rolling initiative until after the ambush has made their first wave of attacks, then you are already using a house rule surprise mechanic.
Combat necessarily has to start before someone actually attacks. It starts basically as soon as either party is ready to strike, before said strike.
Nope. You'd be correct if you said:
It starts basically as soon as either party starts to strike, before said strike resolves.
Because they absolutely start their attack. That is what triggers combat. You don't start combat unless someone tries to attack.
Of course, if they lose initiative the people they're attacking respond before those attacks land their mark.
But combat doesn't start until they attack. This is fundamental.
Combat is actually simultaneous. Remember. People aren't standing around waiting patiently while everyone has a turn to do something. The moment they start their attack against the party we freeze frame, record scratch, and figure out the sequence of events resolving. It all happens at simultaneous and over a period of roughly six seconds..
Their attack starts the combat, and Initiative rolls determine the order things resolve.
But to say combat starts before their attack is wrong. It starts before their attack resolves. Otherwise why are you in "combat" if no one is attacking anything? You're not.
Combat cannot be started until one or more creatures attempt to initiate a hostile action. Will it be carried out? Initiative rolls and turn order answers that.
Surprise is already hard to get RAW, because you can't have a single member of an entire group roll low on stealth. It does not need to be further weakened by making every member have to roll well on stealth twice with a +5 to the DC of the second check.
I don't think anyone has suggested this.
And of course, they stop being hidden after attacking. Which will be on their turn. Which will be after rolling initiative. Which will be after determining surprise. Which will be after when combat actually starts.
You're ignoring the signal to attack. A group must coordinate to act simultaneously somehow. This might give away their position and is perfectly reasonable to use the party's passive perception at advantage in this case. Are they telepathic kobolds? Then sure, no advantage. Ambushes could get spoiled by badly concealed attempts to coordinate all the time. Stealth just barely good enough to conceal your presence while laying silent and motionless? Whistling or moving to do doing hand signs or whatever, to signal the attack, might be what gives you away.
Hidden isn't a status effect. They're not invisible and only attacking ends the condition. They're hidden. Doing anything could end it, if that thing gets someone's attention. Signalling to attack is an attempt to get your allies attention, while simultaneously not get your enemies attention. That should not be guaranteed to work just because you're in some mystical 'hidden' status. You start playing bagpipes while 'hidden" are you still hidden? You haven't attack. No.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Combat begins whenever the DM says so. Nobody needs to say they are attacking. It is purely a matter of DM whimsey.
The range at which this happens is also a matter of DM whimsey. I cannot find any rules about this online. The players will not know that anything is happening at all until Initiative is rolled. At this point, stealth has already been checked, the range and location of every potential combatant has been set. Dice are rolled and the DM asks the player with the highest Initiative "What does your character do?"
The rules are perfectly clear at this point. If none of the characters spotted any of the enemy they are Surprised and cannot more or take any actions their turn and cannot take a Reaction until the end of their turn. Each player is expected to wait and their characters do nothing until someone makes an attack. If no attack is made at all during the round, the characters will just stand around doing nothing, and they will keep doing so for round after round until the DM feels like telling them they can stop.
Why would that happen? Perhaps just because the DM is messing with their minds. It could be because the last time the DM tried to run an ambush the players took completely irrational actions, like throwing themselves down to the ground or trying to get under cover, the moment their Initiative came up. Why did they do that? They "just had a feeling".
There is precedent for this sort of thing in fantasy fiction. The extremely keen senses or heightened alertness to danger allows the Barbarian in the story an almost supernatural ability to avoid ambush. If you want to play that way, by all means go right ahead.
Barring the supernatural, the characters should not get to take any actions at all, nor move, until after the first attack has been made on them.
From this point, following the rules becomes difficult. I'm not going to get into that. The topic of this thread is about what goes on before the fight starts.
Passive perception is checked only once, the range is entirely arbitrary, only one Stealth check needs to be made.
They don't attack before their turn. If you are not rolling initiative until after the ambush has made their first wave of attacks, then you are already using a house rule surprise mechanic.
Combat necessarily has to start before someone actually attacks. It starts basically as soon as either party is ready to strike, before said strike.
Nope. You'd be correct if you said:
It starts basically as soon as either party starts to strike, before said strike resolves.
Because they absolutely start their attack. That is what triggers combat. You don't start combat unless someone tries to attack.
Not trying to be pedantic here, I don't think it's symmetrical. You need to be in combat to make an attack, but I don't think that the game forbids starting a combat while not attacks are being declared (yet).
If no one is attacking it isn't a combat. This is tautologically true. If no one is fighting then there isn't a combat. You're just using some round-based-tracking adhoc that mirrors combat, at that point.
But combat doesn't start until they attack. This is fundamental.
YOu can of course play if that way, but please let me know where this rule comes from.
Until a character has some intent to attack then... why are you starting combat? You don't start combat when the PCs approach the Inn-keep to buy a room and a meal. Not unless someone involved s going to throw down.
It... is, like, fundamentally untrue to call it combat if there isn't... combat.
If you start combat before fighting starts you have mistimed it, as a DM, you have screwed up. It's not the end of the world, but there was no point. It's a waste of everyone's time to go round by round ordering a room, a meal, and exchanging greetings with a barmaid.
You start combat when there is combat. There is combat when someone attacks. If no one attacks it isn't combat.
It's like trying to swim while you're still falling from your dive into the water. Until you hit the water you're not actually swimming, even if you're going through the motions. If no one is fighting it isn't combat and you're just going through the motions for no reason.
Combat is actually simultaneous. Remember. People aren't standing around waiting patiently while everyone has a turn to do something. The moment they start their attack against the party we freeze frame, record scratch, and figure out the sequence of events resolving. It all happens at simultaneous and over a period of roughly six seconds..
That, on the other hand, I agree completely with, and it's important to remember that, while resolution is absolutely sequential, actions actually happen in parallel.
Their attack starts the combat, and Initiative rolls determine the order things resolve.
But to say combat starts before their attack is wrong. It starts before their attack resolves. Otherwise why are you in "combat" if no one is attacking anything? You're not.
You certainly can be. Nothin in the rules prevents from from being in combat with zero attacks happening.
Combat cannot be started until one or more creatures attempt to initiate a hostile action.
Proof ?
Again, it isn't combat if there isn't a fight, because that is what the word combat means.
You're perfectly able to, as a DM, go through the same sequence of events as what happens in combat. Call for initiative, determine turn order, take actions sequentially, Use Item to take a bite of your sandwich or whatever. DMs can do all kinds of silly things.
But, if no one is attacking, it wasn't a combat.
You're ignoring the signal to attack. A group must coordinate to act simultaneously somehow.
Not necessarily. People can just way until the first attack is launched, then launch their attack.
You're describing readied actions. They could coordinate that in advance possibly. The trick there is they'd need to see either the attacker or the target. If they can easily see the target then it's possible the target can easily see them. If they can easily see the attacker then the attacker isn't hidden.
This might give away their position and is perfectly reasonable to use the party's passive perception at advantage in this case.
It is possible, but the fact that the party does not see the kobold does not mean that the kobolds do not see each other, and have perfectly valid reasons to strike simultaneously, just by signals or watching each other.
If the kobolds can see each other then they're not well hidden. They have a passive perception of 8. Anything they're be able to spot the PCs are guaranteed to spot.
Are they telepathic kobolds? Then sure, no advantage. Ambushes could get spoiled by badly concealed attempts to coordinate all the time. Stealth just barely good enough to conceal your presence while laying silent and motionless? Whistling or moving to do doing hand signs or whatever, to signal the attack, might be what gives you away.
It might, but giving advantage because of that is certainly very circumstantial.
Okay then we're back to square 1. There should be 3 possible outcomes and if advantage/disadvantage shouldn't be used here there can only be 2 outcomes. Something is missing.
It should be:
PCs spot em at distance and react before combat.
PCs spot as they're attacked and aren't surprised.
PCs don't spot at all and are surprised.
But if nothing at all changes and we only check stealth vs passive perception there is only 2 outcomes.
1. and 3. Either spot well in advance or not at all.
There is an entire paragraph in the rules about the sequence of combat regarding determining surprise at the start of combat, there is no way that is there if it's impossible for situation 2 to occur.
Hidden isn't a status effect. They're not invisible and only attacking ends the condition. They're hidden. Doing anything could end it, if that thing gets someone's attention. Signalling to attack is an attempt to get your allies attention, while simultaneously not get your enemies attention. That should not be guaranteed to work just because you're in some mystical 'hidden' status. You start playing bagpipes while 'hidden" are you still hidden? You haven't attack. No.
And then kobolds are not more stupid than the average human. If they can see each other, and even if there are multiple groups who have to decided in advance to attack when the intruders go past point "X", there is no reason to make the ambush more difficult.
Yeah this is just even more confusing. There is no way the kobolds can all see each other if the PCs aren't supposed to see them. And, a few things go haywire if they can see each other. For one, it means they're for sure not in a heavily obscured area, which we were kinda already assuming I think. But, it also means they've been discoved, and that their stealth check is ruined. See Hiding Rules:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
If another kobold sees you you've been discovered.
I'm starting to think I had it right from the start. Stealth check once when they lie in wait, and then another when they try to attack without giving away their positions at the start of combat. Idk.
You know what's really crazy? Rereading all this obscurement, cover, hiding rules makes me realize the this areas of the rules really is super broken. Ex.
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
This... this quite literally means that you can't see someone standing IN a bush, but can see someone standing behind that same bush. Because it classified obcurement as an area of effect basically, and the foliage only obscures the area it is in. We know that's what it means because that's actually a correct interpretation for darkness. Standing in an area of darkness makes you impossible to see but standing in the illuminated area behind the patch of darkness and now you can be seen again.
This game is broken I'm just going to default to:
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Because they absolutely start their attack. That is what triggers combat. You don't start combat unless someone tries to attack.
Of course, if they lose initiative the people they're attacking respond before those attacks land their mark.
But combat doesn't start until they attack. This is fundamental.
Combat is actually simultaneous. Remember. People aren't standing around waiting patiently while everyone has a turn to do something. The moment they start their attack against the party we freeze frame, record scratch, and figure out the sequence of events resolving. It all happens at simultaneous and over a period of roughly six seconds..
Their attack starts the combat, and Initiative rolls determine the order things resolve.
But to say combat starts before their attack is wrong. It starts before their attack resolves. Otherwise why are you in "combat" if no one is attacking anything? You're not.
No no no. You had it right in the later post with the "some intent to attack". But having intent to attack and making that attack isn't the same thing and there can absolutely be a time span between them. Not a long one usually but certainly enough of one to make the surprise rules work.
You're ignoring the signal to attack. A group must coordinate to act simultaneously somehow. This might give away their position and is perfectly reasonable to use the party's passive perception at advantage in this case. Are they telepathic kobolds? Then sure, no advantage. Ambushes could get spoiled by badly concealed attempts to coordinate all the time. Stealth just barely good enough to conceal your presence while laying silent and motionless? Whistling or moving to do doing hand signs or whatever, to signal the attack, might be what gives you away.
I think you are being waay to nice to the party about to be ambushed.
Could the ambushers make a mess out of their coordination? Of course but it should be a lot rarer than them succeeding on it. If, for example the ambush leader rolls a "1" for his initiative them I could see it appropriate do add such an effect.
Yeah this is just even more confusing. There is no way the kobolds can all see each other if the PCs aren't supposed to see them. And, a few things go haywire if they can see each other. For one, it means they're for sure not in a heavily obscured area, which we were kinda already assuming I think. But, it also means they've been discoved, and that their stealth check is ruined.
I think you are lacking a bit of imagination tbh. If the Kobolds are in a room that the party hasn't entered yet, or if they are on a ridge/behind a low wall along/besides the road the party is travelling on or a whole bunch of other scenarios. It is definitely possible for the ambushers to see each other without the part being able to see them.
You're describing readied actions. They could coordinate that in advance possibly. The trick there is they'd need to see either the attacker or the target. If they can easily see the target then it's possible the target can easily see them. If they can easily see the attacker then the attacker isn't hidden.
Apparently you’ve never seen a trained sniper in action even if it’s just in a movie. I guarantee the sniper can clearly see the target without the target remotely being able to see them.
And if the group of kobolds have 1 initiative roll and go on the same turn then it is completely logical that the “signal” is when the “leader” attacks they all attack. They know they are ambushing someone so once they hear the twang of a bowstring or other noise initiating the attack they all go.
Again, the rules say nothing about this, nor is it part of any definition of the term. People buffing themselves, preparing actions, casting spells, manoeuvering tactically are also part of combat, which therefore does not require any attack to be made, neither in the rules nor in the real world.
I'll cut all the other text where you bring absolutely zero proof that it has to be the case, but feel free to continue if you think that you have something more solid in terms of proof that your own conviction.
Until a character has some intent to attack then...
Ah, here you are, do you realise that there is a large difference between intending to attack and actually attacking ?
I thought I've been very explicit in explaining that when I say combat doesn't start until some attacks it means that start the process of attacking, but things are RESOLVED in the order of initiative. It is entirely possible to try to ambush someone, fail to surprise them, they win initiative, and drop their disguises on their turn revealing they're allies, and you on your initiative not following through on the attack you were making, and instead stop. Combat resolved. Cinematically, descriptively, you started to attack. That is the precipitating event that triggers the start of combat.
But if no one is even trying to attack anyone then it isn't a combat.
If you start combat before fighting starts you have mistimed it, as a DM, you have screwed up.
This is every insulting. You are inferring things that do not exist in the rules, and none of my players ever complained, so no, sorry, you are the one screwing up by trying to impose constraints that exist nowhere except in your own mind.
It's not the end of the world, but there was no point. It's a waste of everyone's time to go round by round ordering a room, a meal, and exchanging greetings with a barmaid.
Please stop the strawmanning.
It wasn't intended to be insulting, nor a strawman. If no one is fighting it isn't a combat. I really don't understand why you think its a strawman either. You're saying combat doesn't require there to be combat. But it does. You don't start a combat for non-combat situations like this example.
It's like trying to swim while you're still falling from your dive into the water. Until you hit the water you're not actually swimming, even if you're going through the motions. If no one is fighting it isn't combat and you're just going through the motions for no reason.
I have listed tons of reasons, but of course it's because some of us try to have combats slightly more varied and exciting than just rolling for attack.
See now that's insulting. My combats are crazy inspired :P rofl
You're perfectly able to, as a DM, go through the same sequence of events as what happens in combat. Call for initiative, determine turn order, take actions sequentially, Use Item to take a bite of your sandwich or whatever. DMs can do all kinds of silly things.
But, if no one is attacking, it wasn't a combat.
I'll give you an example that happened in one of our campaigns. An assassin prepares to attack his target. Unfortunately, he loses initiative, and therefore would miss some of his benefits. He decides not to attack, hoping that his target will quiet down and get another opportunity. Initiative has been rolled, there has been no attack, and neither will there be.
Deciding not to attack, after starting to attack and initiating combat, is exactly what "resolving events by initiative order" means. He tried to attack. Combat started. The situation changed and he adapted to the new situation, abandoning his attack, and did something else.
But he still started to attack. What else are his targets even reacting to if not his attempt to attack them?
You're ignoring the signal to attack. A group must coordinate to act simultaneously somehow.
Not necessarily. People can just way until the first attack is launched, then launch their attack.
You're describing readied actions. They could coordinate that in advance possibly. The trick there is they'd need to see either the attacker or the target. If they can easily see the target then it's possible the target can easily see them. If they can easily see the attacker then the attacker isn't hidden.
Not at all, see below your own conclusions about heavily obscured areas. Moreover, the rules say: "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly"
If you are behind a peephole you can see clearly and certainly cannot be seen clearly. It's not symmetrical.
Eh, obscured areas are defined differently. If you are within the area of obscurement you either benefit from them having disadvantage to see you or them being effective blind when looking into the area. But if your kobolds are in an area of heavy obscurement then the other kobolds most certainly can't see each other because they'd be treated as being blind when looking into your area. Obscurement rules work exactly like darkness. As bizarre and unintuitive as that might sound. Standing in a bush makes you unseeable, standing behind a bush and you're clear as day.
What you're instead describing, with a peephole, is cover. Which provides benefits to AC and reflex saves.
This might give away their position and is perfectly reasonable to use the party's passive perception at advantage in this case.
It is possible, but the fact that the party does not see the kobold does not mean that the kobolds do not see each other, and have perfectly valid reasons to strike simultaneously, just by signals or watching each other.
If the kobolds can see each other then they're not well hidden. They have a passive perception of 8. Anything they're be able to spot the PCs are guaranteed to spot.
The kobolds are hidden behind a wall. They can see each other extremely clearly, but no one on the other side of the wall can see them, and this is true whatever level of perception everyone has.
And see peepholes above. You have to exercise your imagination here.
I know how I'd adjudicate it in practice. But I'm perfectly content discarding large swathes of the rules if it suits my desired story or intended game-mood. I was hoping to get clarification of the rules here though. Exercising my imagination doesn't drill into how the mechanics of the rules are intended to work.
Are they telepathic kobolds? Then sure, no advantage. Ambushes could get spoiled by badly concealed attempts to coordinate all the time. Stealth just barely good enough to conceal your presence while laying silent and motionless? Whistling or moving to do doing hand signs or whatever, to signal the attack, might be what gives you away.
It might, but giving advantage because of that is certainly very circumstantial.
Okay then we're back to square 1. There should be 3 possible outcomes and if advantage/disadvantage shouldn't be used here
Why shouldn't it be ? There can be tons of distracting conditions on either side.
there can only be 2 outcomes. Something is missing.
It should be:
PCs spot em at distance and react before combat.
PCs spot as they're attacked and aren't surprised.
PCs don't spot at all and are surprised.
But if nothing at all changes and we only check stealth vs passive perception there is only 2 outcomes.
1. and 3. Either spot well in advance or not at all.
There is an entire paragraph in the rules about the sequence of combat regarding determining surprise at the start of combat, there is no way that is there if it's impossible for situation 2 to occur.
Your sentence does not make any sense, sorry, and neither does your list of the conditions. This is not what the rules say. The rules only say that, at the start of combat, whether it's close or far, surprise is determined, and some people will not act. There is no quantum gradation of distance "close" and "far".
That's exactly the problem. It just says "The DM determines the starting distance but doesn't explain how the DM determines the starting distance.
It is missing an instruction here.
I've been seeking clarification on exactly that missing piece. I'm pretty sure there just isn't one so however I want to determine the starting distance is entirely up to me, so if I determine the starting distance with a second stealth roll then as far as I'm concerned that's RAW because it just says "The DM determines the starting distance" and is entirely silent on how, it seems.
Edit: I came back to expand on this. You're right. The rules at the START OF COMBAT says to check surprise. But stealth vs passive could and should already have happened before combat, as the PCs get close enough to detect the presence of enemies. If they fail here, then they are going to get ambushed. If they detect the threat here, combat hasn't even started yet. They could do all sorts of things, some might not cause a combat to even happen.
But, assuming they fail that first stealth v perception, they will inevitably wander into the ambush. At THIS point we check for surprise or not surprise. That, is, again, the stealth v perception. The exact same thing we just did like 30 ft earlier, up the road a little ways.
If nothing changes with these checks, then situation 2 is impossible. And, if situation 2 is impossible then why are we repeating the stealth v perception if the outcome is already set in stone? We already knew they didn't detect them 30ft up the road why are we checking the stealth again ow at the start of combat. Doesn't make sense. There needs to be some possible route to reach situation 2 as a possible outcome.
Hidden isn't a status effect. They're not invisible and only attacking ends the condition. They're hidden. Doing anything could end it, if that thing gets someone's attention. Signalling to attack is an attempt to get your allies attention, while simultaneously not get your enemies attention. That should not be guaranteed to work just because you're in some mystical 'hidden' status. You start playing bagpipes while 'hidden" are you still hidden? You haven't attack. No.
And then kobolds are not more stupid than the average human. If they can see each other, and even if there are multiple groups who have to decided in advance to attack when the intruders go past point "X", there is no reason to make the ambush more difficult.
Yeah this is just even more confusing. There is no way the kobolds can all see each other if the PCs aren't supposed to see them.
Your view of cactical situations is decidedly narrow, see "wall" and "peephole" above.
lol genuinely made me snortle for reasons not relevant to this post or dnd. But, just, no rofl.
And, a few things go haywire if they can see each other. For one, it means they're for sure not in a heavily obscured area, which we were kinda already assuming I think. But, it also means they've been discoved, and that their stealth check is ruined. See Hiding Rules:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
If another kobold sees you you've been discovered.
This is a very very narrow reading of the rules. Do you really think that the rules tell you that two creatures can not hide from enemies if they are together and can see each other ?
If you think that it's the case, the rules are really, really stupid, but fortunately they don't say that.
If you hide, you hide from everyone. The only way not to is to do a group skill check to hide together. But you'd need to be together. But you can't automatically see someone who is hiding just because they're friendly to you. If your party rogue tries to hide, and rolls well, above your passive perception... you don't know where they are just like the enemy doesn't know where they are.
I'm starting to think I had it right from the start. Stealth check once when they lie in wait, and then another when they try to attack without giving away their positions at the start of combat. Idk.
You know what's really crazy? Rereading all this obscurement, cover, hiding rules makes me realize the this areas of the rules really is super broken. Ex.
They are not reading all of them at the same time, proof below.
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
This... this quite literally means that you can't see someone standing IN a bush, but can see someone standing behind that same bush.
No,because it blocks vision, highlighted for you.
Darkness doesn't block vision through it. It blocks vision into it. The sentence immediately after your red highlight tells you exactly what it means on a mechanical rules level. Trying to see something within the area is impossible. Says nothing for something beyond the area. Nor should it. You can see the guy carrying a lantern on the other side of a pitch dark cavern just fine... just not the assassin lurking in the darkness halfway between you two in the middle of the darkness area of the cavern.
I didn't write these rules man. But bushes and fog do the same thing as natural darkness, per the rules. Make sense? Nope.
Because it classified obcurement as an area of effect basically, and the foliage only obscures the area it is in. We know that's what it means because that's actually a correct interpretation for darkness. Standing in an area of darkness makes you impossible to see but standing in the illuminated area behind the patch of darkness and now you can be seen again.
This game is broken I'm just going to default to:
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
That is absolutely the right thing to do, but the rules are fine, they just don't cover the multiplicity of edge cases that happen when you start using stealth and hiding. Previous editions had more complex rules but they had just more complicated edge cases to solve because players thought they could interpret some rules their own way, generating tons of ruleslawyering and not solving anything more.
I really don't think the rules are fine unless the DM makes a LOT of stuff up to fill in the gaps and also just straight up ignores some rules.
To make the vison stuff work in a believable way you must:
Treat areas behind Cover like direction-dependent obscured areas
Treat obscured areas like cover, but only sometimes and only in some ways
I mean, another example how weird these rues are is per the default rules you would have to take an actual Action to roll Stealth and hide, even if you were invisible in an area of darkness and against a character in an area of silence. It's impossible for them to detect you in any way. But, per the rules, you still need to take an action to hide... and you can fail. It's silly really. This whole part of the rules is lacking or nonsensical.
Any DM with any sense naturally ignores and homebrews these inconsistencies out. Based on a few of your above points, you seem to be doing it without even realizing you're doing it. More power to you.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I'm having some trouble with the perception rules here. Do ambushing enemies need to roll stealth twice?
Example, the party of adventurers is walking down a trail that eventually passes through our ambush point. Lurking there, are several kobolds waiting to ambush them.
Do I check passive perception vs the kobold stealth checks when the party first has line of sight to the squares of the kobolds? And, assuming the party fails, then have the same process repeat when they reach the ambush point and the kobolds attack to determine surprise?
I've been told I only check when they reach the ambush point to determine surprise. But that seems wrong, because they should have had the opportunity to spot them before getting to the exact spot the kobolds wanted them to in the first place.
Thoughts? In this example, how far away does detecting a stealthed attacker start? Is it immediately if your senses could perceive them that your passive perception might detect a hidden creature, or much closer when you're already next to them and they attack you? Or, both with two difference stealth rolls? (One for hiding and one for determining surprise.) Clarification would be appreciated.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A lot of the perception rules you might expect are missing - for example, unlike in previous editions, I can't quote you any guidance on how to penalize Perception for distance. I *can* quote you a bunch of oft-ignored rules (my current DM rejects most of them out of hand because he loves it when math rocks go clickety-clack, so I just about always roll when passive is what the rules call for.
Here's the short version:
Thanks for replying.
In the example, the kobolds would be hiding already. We would check their stealth checks vs the party's perceptions. Assuming the party failed and did not spot the kobolds at this point, then they would continue to approach, because they haven't noticed anything. Once the party gets to the exact ambush spot the kobolds are waiting for, they attack, which, would then prompt a 2nd stealth check to determine if they surprised the party.
This is the hypothetical, all one string of events. Not multiple encounters. But I'm just not sure if this second check is right or not. I suspect it is, but have been told you only do one. But, I can't figure out how to make it work with only one.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Keep in mind, some party members might discern the Kobold's, and others not. Let's assume you rolled the Kobold's Stealth as a group, and came up with a 15. Any char that has a Passive Perception of 15 will discern the Kobold's and say "hey, that looks like a trap", and alert the party, and then whatever happens, happens.
Now, if the highest Passive Perception in the party is 14, then no one in the party sees them, the party walks into a trap, and the Kobold's WILL have Surprise. No 2nd roll is needed.
My 5th Edition Core Rules Boxed Set included a handy-dandy four panel DM's Screen. Inside was a chart labeled Encounter Distance. It gives ranges, in feet, by terrain type, at which opponents could perceive each other. You could roll dice to determine the range. There is even a few lines for range of detection via hearing, depending on what measures were being made to keep quiet. I would have sworn it was in the Player's Handbook, but I surely cannot find it. Nor in the DMG. I've searched the D&D Beyond website and found nothing close. I even tried Google, with various keywords and nope. Nothing.
Near as I understand the rules, if the Kobolds know the party is coming, and have time to prepare, they can get under cover to prevent direct line of sight and set up an ambush. They make a single check for Stealth.
When the party comes into detection range, they get a single check against the highest passive perception any of the characters in the party has. What that range might be I cannot say. It will be entirely up to the DM. Combat begins when the DM decides it does. It goes like this:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
That all seems clear enough. It's pretty much straight out of the Player's Handbook. Once any of the Kobolds makes an attack, none of them may be considered hidden. There is no need to make another Stealth Check unless one or more of the Kobolds takes their Action to Hide.
From there the Rules and Mechanics become very confusing. Can a Kobold who has not attacked move back out of detection range and return, make a Stealth check and get Surprise? Can more Kobolds show up and try to sneak up on the party? Do they get to make Stealth checks too? What happens if the Kobold who had the highest Initiative decides to change their mind and not attack after all?
Hopefully someone else has the answers. I've seen these subjects debated at great length, in multiple threads that go on for page after page. If you think things are puzzling now, wait until it is your players who want to set up the ambush. The rules under which an Assassin can get full use of their ability to automatically get a Critical Hit causes all sorts of chaos in the forums. Jeremey Crawford will be brought up and that starts a firestorm.
Good luck and have fun.
<Insert clever signature here>
Generally, you should only roll a skill check once per instance of using that skill. So in this case, a single stealth check should last until you stop sneaking.
So in this example, if the kobolds were hidden before entering line of sight, they should have already made a stealth check (even if you didn't prepare it before hand and rolled it only as soon as it was needed), and they stick with that stealth for determining surprise if the party approaches the ambush spot (noticed or otherwise).
Yes, this is exactly what I've been told. But...
Assume they fail that check and the PCs spot them.
Now we have a problem, because, if the PCs spotted them, why did they walk haplessly into the ambush chokepoint?
And, if they did see them and didn't wander into the ambush chokepoint, why do the rules tell us to check for stealth/surprise at the start of combat?
Really, it boils down to how can a single instance of stealth vs perception result in complying with start of encounter rules and also spot the hidden enemies when they come into view? Those are two different and mutually exclusive set of results from a single check.
Possible Sequence Results:
I don't know how to do sequence A with only a single stealth check?
Excerpt from starting encounters:
Now, would this be a new check, or are we saying this is supposed to be the same result from when they first started hiding? And, if so, doesn't this mean that any party who fails to notice a threat at hundreds of feet away also is unable to notice that threat as it is firing crossbows at them from 15 ft away?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Thank you! THIS is exactly what I as missing. Advantage and disadvantage modify passive perception by 5!
If we assume they have disadvantage at a distance but not right at the start of the encounter, it creates the possibility for the missing outcome of: getting ambushed but some people not being surprised.
And so now ends the era where I gave my players two chances to not get surprised rofl. Thanks!
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That sounds like a question for your players. Plus sometimes character go into what they know is a trap prepared for the trap.
I don't see the issue. You can compare a previously rolled stealth checks at the start of combat just like the rules and don't have to roll new ones (in fact shouldn't roll new ones because of the whole "not a new hide attempt" thing).
They are different rules but very not mutually exclusive.
Let me ask you something. Did how well the kobolds are hidden change between the party being hundreds of feet away and the party moving into the chokepoint? Probably not, so the stealth roll shouldn't be different either. Now the party would have a harder time spotting them from a distance, so that could be represented by -5 to passive perception which gets added back when less than 100 feet. And the party will definitely notice the crossbows, but by then initiative would have started with them surprised.
... ? I'm not sure you understand what I was asking. I might not have been clear, so that's understandable.
So, the issue I had is that I believe there is more than 2 possible outcomes. The players should have the opportunity to spot the ambush well in advance of reaching the chokepoint, and before combat. But if that was the case why do the combat rules also prompt to role stealth vs perception when the combat itself starts if we already know if they see them or not.
There should be these possible outcomes:
But, with just a single static stealth vs perception you cannot reach all three of those results. I was missing something, and instead 'fixing' it with the second stealth role. But what I wasn't considering, as Lyxen pointed out, was advantage/disadvantage as the situation changes. That is the missing piece.
Yes absolutely. Of course it does. They're attacking.
Combat starts when someone attacks. That would absolutely change how well they're hidden. Especially for a group all trying to coordinate a simultaneous attack. There would need to be some kind of signal to strike.
I'd give the party disadvantage on perception while far, normal when closer, and advantage at the start of combat check because of the attack signal and rustling of them starting their attack. This gives the diverse range of outcomes I am looking for without having to use multiple rolls. Its perfect.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There’s also the possibility that you determine there is no chance of spotting the ambush from 100ft away due to foliage, angles, hiding positions etc.
Usually a good idea not to host your ambush if it can be spotted a (non-literal) mile off after all.
The combat rules don't prompt a stealth roll. It never says "make a stealth check" in the surprise rules. The DM compares (an existing) stealth roll to passive perception in order to determine who is surprised. That is all it does.
All 3 of those still happen. Individual members of the party get surprised, not all or nothing. You can also use disadvantage and advantage on passive perception like I said as they get closer. But otherwise, there is no reason the kobold who rolled a 25 stealth when they hid should get noticed without an active search at any distance.
Also, active searches exist, so PCs can roll perception to see if they roll higher than their passive.
They don't attack before their turn. If you are not rolling initiative until after the ambush has made their first wave of attacks, then you are already using a house rule surprise mechanic.
Combat necessarily has to start before someone actually attacks. It starts basically as soon as either party is ready to strike, before said strike.
Surprise is already hard to get RAW, because you can't have a single member of an entire group roll low on stealth. It does not need to be further weakened by making every member have to roll well on stealth twice with a +5 to the DC of the second check.
And of course, they stop being hidden after attacking. Which will be on their turn. Which will be after rolling initiative. Which will be after determining surprise. Which will be after when combat actually starts.
There could be times where the pc’s might not be able to get LOS on the ambush, like a corner of a corridor. But in the end, in your example, the kobolds roll stealth check. As the party approaches you compare their passive perception to the stealth roll. If the check fails the party wanders into the ambush and is surprised. If one or more beats the stealth roll there is no surprise if they alert their party.
it’s up to the DM to decide when to do the passive perception check. There could be times that they party doesn’t get one until too late and only the ones who beat the stealth check can react. So if you determine that there is no way for the party to perceive the Ki Alda until they are in the ambush zone then you compare stealth to PP of each character, roll initiative, the ones who fail the PP are surprised and cannot act in round 1, the ones who pass the PP can act by initiative order.
edit. Maybe the foliage is too dense and between that, the wind, the animals, a stream or river noises or other woodland noises they don’t perceive until they get too close
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Sorry I should have been more clear. When I said LOS I just meant in their range of perception. You are correct if they could see them there is no surprise. On the open plains you might see someone a mile away but you wouldn’t be able to hear their footsteps or in a twisting corridor you might be unable to see more than a couple dozen feet due to a turn in the hallway but could hear footsteps two rooms away if it was a tile floor and hard sole shoes with no attempt at stealth.
Yes, the surprise is individually determined, I just assumed if at least one noticed, from a distance, they would inform the rest and alert the party. Unless they’re being a d**k.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Nope. You'd be correct if you said:
Because they absolutely start their attack. That is what triggers combat. You don't start combat unless someone tries to attack.
Of course, if they lose initiative the people they're attacking respond before those attacks land their mark.
But combat doesn't start until they attack. This is fundamental.
Combat is actually simultaneous. Remember. People aren't standing around waiting patiently while everyone has a turn to do something. The moment they start their attack against the party we freeze frame, record scratch, and figure out the sequence of events resolving. It all happens at simultaneous and over a period of roughly six seconds..
Their attack starts the combat, and Initiative rolls determine the order things resolve.
But to say combat starts before their attack is wrong. It starts before their attack resolves. Otherwise why are you in "combat" if no one is attacking anything? You're not.
Combat cannot be started until one or more creatures attempt to initiate a hostile action. Will it be carried out? Initiative rolls and turn order answers that.
I don't think anyone has suggested this.
You're ignoring the signal to attack. A group must coordinate to act simultaneously somehow. This might give away their position and is perfectly reasonable to use the party's passive perception at advantage in this case. Are they telepathic kobolds? Then sure, no advantage. Ambushes could get spoiled by badly concealed attempts to coordinate all the time. Stealth just barely good enough to conceal your presence while laying silent and motionless? Whistling or moving to do doing hand signs or whatever, to signal the attack, might be what gives you away.
Hidden isn't a status effect. They're not invisible and only attacking ends the condition. They're hidden. Doing anything could end it, if that thing gets someone's attention. Signalling to attack is an attempt to get your allies attention, while simultaneously not get your enemies attention. That should not be guaranteed to work just because you're in some mystical 'hidden' status. You start playing bagpipes while 'hidden" are you still hidden? You haven't attack. No.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Combat begins whenever the DM says so. Nobody needs to say they are attacking. It is purely a matter of DM whimsey.
The range at which this happens is also a matter of DM whimsey. I cannot find any rules about this online. The players will not know that anything is happening at all until Initiative is rolled. At this point, stealth has already been checked, the range and location of every potential combatant has been set. Dice are rolled and the DM asks the player with the highest Initiative "What does your character do?"
The rules are perfectly clear at this point. If none of the characters spotted any of the enemy they are Surprised and cannot more or take any actions their turn and cannot take a Reaction until the end of their turn. Each player is expected to wait and their characters do nothing until someone makes an attack. If no attack is made at all during the round, the characters will just stand around doing nothing, and they will keep doing so for round after round until the DM feels like telling them they can stop.
Why would that happen? Perhaps just because the DM is messing with their minds. It could be because the last time the DM tried to run an ambush the players took completely irrational actions, like throwing themselves down to the ground or trying to get under cover, the moment their Initiative came up. Why did they do that? They "just had a feeling".
There is precedent for this sort of thing in fantasy fiction. The extremely keen senses or heightened alertness to danger allows the Barbarian in the story an almost supernatural ability to avoid ambush. If you want to play that way, by all means go right ahead.
Barring the supernatural, the characters should not get to take any actions at all, nor move, until after the first attack has been made on them.
From this point, following the rules becomes difficult. I'm not going to get into that. The topic of this thread is about what goes on before the fight starts.
Passive perception is checked only once, the range is entirely arbitrary, only one Stealth check needs to be made.
<Insert clever signature here>
If no one is attacking it isn't a combat. This is tautologically true. If no one is fighting then there isn't a combat. You're just using some round-based-tracking adhoc that mirrors combat, at that point.
Until a character has some intent to attack then... why are you starting combat? You don't start combat when the PCs approach the Inn-keep to buy a room and a meal. Not unless someone involved s going to throw down.
It... is, like, fundamentally untrue to call it combat if there isn't... combat.
If you start combat before fighting starts you have mistimed it, as a DM, you have screwed up. It's not the end of the world, but there was no point. It's a waste of everyone's time to go round by round ordering a room, a meal, and exchanging greetings with a barmaid.
You start combat when there is combat. There is combat when someone attacks. If no one attacks it isn't combat.
It's like trying to swim while you're still falling from your dive into the water. Until you hit the water you're not actually swimming, even if you're going through the motions. If no one is fighting it isn't combat and you're just going through the motions for no reason.
Again, it isn't combat if there isn't a fight, because that is what the word combat means.
You're perfectly able to, as a DM, go through the same sequence of events as what happens in combat. Call for initiative, determine turn order, take actions sequentially, Use Item to take a bite of your sandwich or whatever. DMs can do all kinds of silly things.
But, if no one is attacking, it wasn't a combat.
You're describing readied actions. They could coordinate that in advance possibly. The trick there is they'd need to see either the attacker or the target. If they can easily see the target then it's possible the target can easily see them. If they can easily see the attacker then the attacker isn't hidden.
If the kobolds can see each other then they're not well hidden. They have a passive perception of 8. Anything they're be able to spot the PCs are guaranteed to spot.
Okay then we're back to square 1. There should be 3 possible outcomes and if advantage/disadvantage shouldn't be used here there can only be 2 outcomes. Something is missing.
It should be:
But if nothing at all changes and we only check stealth vs passive perception there is only 2 outcomes.
1. and 3. Either spot well in advance or not at all.
There is an entire paragraph in the rules about the sequence of combat regarding determining surprise at the start of combat, there is no way that is there if it's impossible for situation 2 to occur.
Yeah this is just even more confusing. There is no way the kobolds can all see each other if the PCs aren't supposed to see them. And, a few things go haywire if they can see each other. For one, it means they're for sure not in a heavily obscured area, which we were kinda already assuming I think. But, it also means they've been discoved, and that their stealth check is ruined. See Hiding Rules:
If another kobold sees you you've been discovered.
I'm starting to think I had it right from the start. Stealth check once when they lie in wait, and then another when they try to attack without giving away their positions at the start of combat. Idk.
You know what's really crazy? Rereading all this obscurement, cover, hiding rules makes me realize the this areas of the rules really is super broken. Ex.
This... this quite literally means that you can't see someone standing IN a bush, but can see someone standing behind that same bush. Because it classified obcurement as an area of effect basically, and the foliage only obscures the area it is in. We know that's what it means because that's actually a correct interpretation for darkness. Standing in an area of darkness makes you impossible to see but standing in the illuminated area behind the patch of darkness and now you can be seen again.
This game is broken I'm just going to default to:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No no no. You had it right in the later post with the "some intent to attack". But having intent to attack and making that attack isn't the same thing and there can absolutely be a time span between them. Not a long one usually but certainly enough of one to make the surprise rules work.
I think you are being waay to nice to the party about to be ambushed.
Could the ambushers make a mess out of their coordination? Of course but it should be a lot rarer than them succeeding on it. If, for example the ambush leader rolls a "1" for his initiative them I could see it appropriate do add such an effect.
I think you are lacking a bit of imagination tbh. If the Kobolds are in a room that the party hasn't entered yet, or if they are on a ridge/behind a low wall along/besides the road the party is travelling on or a whole bunch of other scenarios. It is definitely possible for the ambushers to see each other without the part being able to see them.
Apparently you’ve never seen a trained sniper in action even if it’s just in a movie. I guarantee the sniper can clearly see the target without the target remotely being able to see them.
And if the group of kobolds have 1 initiative roll and go on the same turn then it is completely logical that the “signal” is when the “leader” attacks they all attack. They know they are ambushing someone so once they hear the twang of a bowstring or other noise initiating the attack they all go.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I thought I've been very explicit in explaining that when I say combat doesn't start until some attacks it means that start the process of attacking, but things are RESOLVED in the order of initiative. It is entirely possible to try to ambush someone, fail to surprise them, they win initiative, and drop their disguises on their turn revealing they're allies, and you on your initiative not following through on the attack you were making, and instead stop. Combat resolved. Cinematically, descriptively, you started to attack. That is the precipitating event that triggers the start of combat.
But if no one is even trying to attack anyone then it isn't a combat.
It wasn't intended to be insulting, nor a strawman. If no one is fighting it isn't a combat. I really don't understand why you think its a strawman either. You're saying combat doesn't require there to be combat. But it does. You don't start a combat for non-combat situations like this example.
See now that's insulting. My combats are crazy inspired :P rofl
Deciding not to attack, after starting to attack and initiating combat, is exactly what "resolving events by initiative order" means. He tried to attack. Combat started. The situation changed and he adapted to the new situation, abandoning his attack, and did something else.
But he still started to attack. What else are his targets even reacting to if not his attempt to attack them?
Eh, obscured areas are defined differently. If you are within the area of obscurement you either benefit from them having disadvantage to see you or them being effective blind when looking into the area. But if your kobolds are in an area of heavy obscurement then the other kobolds most certainly can't see each other because they'd be treated as being blind when looking into your area. Obscurement rules work exactly like darkness. As bizarre and unintuitive as that might sound. Standing in a bush makes you unseeable, standing behind a bush and you're clear as day.
What you're instead describing, with a peephole, is cover. Which provides benefits to AC and reflex saves.
I know how I'd adjudicate it in practice. But I'm perfectly content discarding large swathes of the rules if it suits my desired story or intended game-mood. I was hoping to get clarification of the rules here though. Exercising my imagination doesn't drill into how the mechanics of the rules are intended to work.
That's exactly the problem. It just says "The DM determines the starting distance but doesn't explain how the DM determines the starting distance.
It is missing an instruction here.
I've been seeking clarification on exactly that missing piece. I'm pretty sure there just isn't one so however I want to determine the starting distance is entirely up to me, so if I determine the starting distance with a second stealth roll then as far as I'm concerned that's RAW because it just says "The DM determines the starting distance" and is entirely silent on how, it seems.
Edit: I came back to expand on this. You're right. The rules at the START OF COMBAT says to check surprise. But stealth vs passive could and should already have happened before combat, as the PCs get close enough to detect the presence of enemies. If they fail here, then they are going to get ambushed. If they detect the threat here, combat hasn't even started yet. They could do all sorts of things, some might not cause a combat to even happen.
But, assuming they fail that first stealth v perception, they will inevitably wander into the ambush. At THIS point we check for surprise or not surprise. That, is, again, the stealth v perception. The exact same thing we just did like 30 ft earlier, up the road a little ways.
If nothing changes with these checks, then situation 2 is impossible. And, if situation 2 is impossible then why are we repeating the stealth v perception if the outcome is already set in stone? We already knew they didn't detect them 30ft up the road why are we checking the stealth again ow at the start of combat. Doesn't make sense. There needs to be some possible route to reach situation 2 as a possible outcome.
lol genuinely made me snortle for reasons not relevant to this post or dnd. But, just, no rofl.
If you hide, you hide from everyone. The only way not to is to do a group skill check to hide together. But you'd need to be together. But you can't automatically see someone who is hiding just because they're friendly to you. If your party rogue tries to hide, and rolls well, above your passive perception... you don't know where they are just like the enemy doesn't know where they are.
Darkness doesn't block vision through it. It blocks vision into it. The sentence immediately after your red highlight tells you exactly what it means on a mechanical rules level. Trying to see something within the area is impossible. Says nothing for something beyond the area. Nor should it. You can see the guy carrying a lantern on the other side of a pitch dark cavern just fine... just not the assassin lurking in the darkness halfway between you two in the middle of the darkness area of the cavern.
I didn't write these rules man. But bushes and fog do the same thing as natural darkness, per the rules. Make sense? Nope.
I really don't think the rules are fine unless the DM makes a LOT of stuff up to fill in the gaps and also just straight up ignores some rules.
To make the vison stuff work in a believable way you must:
I mean, another example how weird these rues are is per the default rules you would have to take an actual Action to roll Stealth and hide, even if you were invisible in an area of darkness and against a character in an area of silence. It's impossible for them to detect you in any way. But, per the rules, you still need to take an action to hide... and you can fail. It's silly really. This whole part of the rules is lacking or nonsensical.
Any DM with any sense naturally ignores and homebrews these inconsistencies out. Based on a few of your above points, you seem to be doing it without even realizing you're doing it. More power to you.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.