I haven’t seen this asked elsewhere, but I had a Druid in my game cast Conjure Animals. As the wording of the spell is that the animals appear in an unoccupied space he can see, he stacked the animals above the enemy in combat and had 4 giant goats fall from the sky on their opponent. I basically allowed bludgeoning damage from the goats falling from the sky on the enemy, allowing a dex save to avoid each goat. My question is, does the spell allow for the animals to be conjured in the air?
Generally, a spell will tell you whether it targets "creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect." "Typically, a point of origin is a point in space." But can that point in space be anywhere? Not always... "point of origin" can be hard to define, and spells with non-creature-non-object points of origin often either have weird language (see Conjure Animals, which has a point that is a "unoccupied space within range"), or skip describing their point of origin entirely and assuming it's adequately described by range (see Minor Illusion, which has an undefined point that's just.... somewhere "within range").
Can you make a Minor Illusion at a point of origin in mid-air? Yeah, sure, as long as it's "within range." Can you do that with Conjure Animals? Well... is that point in mid-air what you'd understand to be an "unoccupied space"?
Usually when we talk about "spaces", we're talking about 5-foot squares on a battle map (or, their rough aproximation if we're using theater of the mind). You can't share "a space" with another creature, for example... and yet, characters ride horses all the time. Is that an exception to that rule? Are they in a different space that's above the horse? Is "space" meaningless above and below a 2D battlefield, and the "don't share spaces" rule is really just about being in each other's way on the ground?
Your mileage may vary with your DM, it's a little unclear, especially since a battle map made of 5-foot-square spaces isn't actually a required assumption in D&D, its supposedly an optional rule. I think that a DM would be within their right to say that an "unoccupied space" implies an "unoccupied space on the battlefield, not some random point in the sky where the battle isn't taking place." I also think that many DMs wouldn't be that picky, and would let you pick a 5-foot cube of empty sky within range.
The thing with summon spells, is that generally, the idea is that the player chooses the cr, and the dm chooses the creature within that cr range. Lots of DMs don’t want that headache, and leave it to the player to choose the creatures and know the stats, but technically it’s up to the dm to choose. In that case, if I’m the dm and you choose a spot in the air, I’m going to give you flying creatures.
The spell specifies SPACES not space. I usually interpret this to mean that each creature is summoned into its own space. In addition, since creatures except swarms can not end their turn in the space of another creature - I would not typically allow the creatures to be summoned in the space occupied by an opponent.
"In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the chapter."
On the other hand, if the caster wanted to summon the creatures in the air above a creature and have them fall on them - I would require either a dex saving throw to avoid the falling creature or a to hit roll of some sort by the caster. The creatures would take falling damage in any case and might or might not damage the target. Either way the creatures would have to conjured in different spaces (ie. different heights or locations).
I'd allow you to choose unoccupied spaces in the air, but as DM I would also be deciding which creatures appear (unless the spell specifically gave that choice to the caster). conjure animals says the caster gets to choose one of the 4 options, but those options don't include choosing the creatures specifically, so I'd be the one choosing, and I'd likely choose creatures that could fly if any were available.
If no flying creatures of that CR were available, then the creatures would fall, and I'd use Tasha's rule for creatures falling on other creatures to adjudicate damage dealt.
I haven’t seen this asked elsewhere, but I had a Druid in my game cast Conjure Animals. As the wording of the spell is that the animals appear in an unoccupied space he can see, he stacked the animals above the enemy in combat and had 4 giant goats fall from the sky on their opponent. I basically allowed bludgeoning damage from the goats falling from the sky on the enemy, allowing a dex save to avoid each goat. My question is, does the spell allow for the animals to be conjured in the air?
Yes. It doesn't allow for the Druid to specify giant goats. You were correct on the Dex save - the rules for goats falling on people are in Tasha's.
"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range."
As a DM you could actually read that sentence from the spell discription, as the caster is not able to chose the spaces of appearance. They just appear at random locations within range and line of sight.
But that might just be me, being a nitpicking evil DM...
That would be taking the view that the spell is an AOE sphere centered on yourself, with a range of self... I don’t have a physical PHB handy to compare it’s spell header vs dndbeyond’s (I know they reformatted them a bit and aren’t quite RAW), but I imagine that’s not quite what the spell describes.
That would be taking the view that the spell is an AOE sphere centered on yourself, with a range of self... I don’t have a physical PHB handy to compare it’s spell header vs dndbeyond’s (I know they reformatted them a bit and aren’t quite RAW), but I imagine that’s not quite what the spell describes.
It is range 60 feet, not self (60 ft sphere). I checked.
Poor goats. :-( What did goats ever do to that Druid? Why would they want to hurt the goats by dropping them on people? Having the goats run around butting them would be much nicer, and probably more effective. Last time this one was raised it was camels.
As a DM I'd find a way to penalize a Druid who abused animals. If they want the Forces of Nature to help them out, they shouldn't be using those forces in ways that give the animal no choice in how they do it.
Given this is the forum for rules and game mechanics, I'd do this: The player loses all spells and abilities that allow the conjuration of creatures, and cannot Wildshape until they have taken a Long Rest and made a sacrifice pleasing to the Forces of Nature.
Range self (60 ft sphere) would only be true for an AOE spell. Something like Aid has Range 30 ft and says: 3 target creatures within range.
Right. Aid is a spell effecting creatures that the player targets within range, not random creatures within an AOE. If a DM were to say that the player does not target any spaces, but rather an effect occurs at some random spaces within a dome or circle defined by radius X... that sounds like an AOE, which Conjure Animals (and Aid) is not. That was my point, that a reasonable DM CAN’T take targeting away from player without changing the spell’s range.
Really, a lot of spells could have been defined as either a range or as an AOE centered on caster, it’s somewhat arbitrary... but to the extent there’s a difference, I think only an AOE would allow DM to take control of what random spaces are effected.
Depends on what kind of game you have. If it's lighthearted and silly and encourages creativity, allow it. If it's serious and tactical, don't. As the DM, you are under no obligation to follow rules as written or "official" online interpretations. Do you want every battle to involve dropping heavy animals on the enemies for lethal damage? Would your player do that if it was their most damaging attack, or would they limit it to once to avoid it becoming boring?
I stole the idea of Polymorphing enemies into air-breathing sea creatures like a Killer Whale from Critical Role. They can't move, but don't suffocate and have a bag of hit points. But I don't spam this tactic. Instead I've turned an enemy into a snail and had the wizard's familiar carry it far away. I've turned a friend into a T-rex for damage output and a friend into a giant eagle to fly out of reach and maintain concentration on a Banishment.
That’s just it. It’s a fairly serious type of game, but it was such a creative use of the spell, and the player was really excited by the idea that I just rolled with the rule of cool. It’s a fairly new player so I’m not sure if he’s going to try to spam it going forward. However, they are being scryed by the BBEG and now he knows the trick and tactics.
I absolutely disagree with the design team on this one, I think they have it wrong. That being said, most DMs aren’t going to sabotage your spell just because they can. But you are creating something, that is what conjugation magic is. It’s like getting a pile of wood and using your carpentry skill and asking the DM what you made. That’s just plain silly. Furthermore, it has to be something the character has seen, so the DM can filter out creatures they do not want used by never introducing them to their game. The rules are more like guidelines anyway… (I feel like I’m quoting Barbossa)
I haven’t seen this asked elsewhere, but I had a Druid in my game cast Conjure Animals. As the wording of the spell is that the animals appear in an unoccupied space he can see, he stacked the animals above the enemy in combat and had 4 giant goats fall from the sky on their opponent. I basically allowed bludgeoning damage from the goats falling from the sky on the enemy, allowing a dex save to avoid each goat. My question is, does the spell allow for the animals to be conjured in the air?
Generally, a spell will tell you whether it targets "creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect." "Typically, a point of origin is a point in space." But can that point in space be anywhere? Not always... "point of origin" can be hard to define, and spells with non-creature-non-object points of origin often either have weird language (see Conjure Animals, which has a point that is a "unoccupied space within range"), or skip describing their point of origin entirely and assuming it's adequately described by range (see Minor Illusion, which has an undefined point that's just.... somewhere "within range").
Can you make a Minor Illusion at a point of origin in mid-air? Yeah, sure, as long as it's "within range." Can you do that with Conjure Animals? Well... is that point in mid-air what you'd understand to be an "unoccupied space"?
Usually when we talk about "spaces", we're talking about 5-foot squares on a battle map (or, their rough aproximation if we're using theater of the mind). You can't share "a space" with another creature, for example... and yet, characters ride horses all the time. Is that an exception to that rule? Are they in a different space that's above the horse? Is "space" meaningless above and below a 2D battlefield, and the "don't share spaces" rule is really just about being in each other's way on the ground?
Your mileage may vary with your DM, it's a little unclear, especially since a battle map made of 5-foot-square spaces isn't actually a required assumption in D&D, its supposedly an optional rule. I think that a DM would be within their right to say that an "unoccupied space" implies an "unoccupied space on the battlefield, not some random point in the sky where the battle isn't taking place." I also think that many DMs wouldn't be that picky, and would let you pick a 5-foot cube of empty sky within range.
Not sure, really.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The thing with summon spells, is that generally, the idea is that the player chooses the cr, and the dm chooses the creature within that cr range. Lots of DMs don’t want that headache, and leave it to the player to choose the creatures and know the stats, but technically it’s up to the dm to choose.
In that case, if I’m the dm and you choose a spot in the air, I’m going to give you flying creatures.
The exact wording of conjure animals is:
"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. "
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/conjure-animals
The spell specifies SPACES not space. I usually interpret this to mean that each creature is summoned into its own space. In addition, since creatures except swarms can not end their turn in the space of another creature - I would not typically allow the creatures to be summoned in the space occupied by an opponent.
"In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the chapter."
On the other hand, if the caster wanted to summon the creatures in the air above a creature and have them fall on them - I would require either a dex saving throw to avoid the falling creature or a to hit roll of some sort by the caster. The creatures would take falling damage in any case and might or might not damage the target. Either way the creatures would have to conjured in different spaces (ie. different heights or locations).
I'd allow you to choose unoccupied spaces in the air, but as DM I would also be deciding which creatures appear (unless the spell specifically gave that choice to the caster). conjure animals says the caster gets to choose one of the 4 options, but those options don't include choosing the creatures specifically, so I'd be the one choosing, and I'd likely choose creatures that could fly if any were available.
If no flying creatures of that CR were available, then the creatures would fall, and I'd use Tasha's rule for creatures falling on other creatures to adjudicate damage dealt.
Yes. It doesn't allow for the Druid to specify giant goats. You were correct on the Dex save - the rules for goats falling on people are in Tasha's.
Next time they conjure animals in the air, give them flying creatures.
"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range."
As a DM you could actually read that sentence from the spell discription, as the caster is not able to chose the spaces of appearance. They just appear at random locations within range and line of sight.
But that might just be me, being a nitpicking evil DM...
That would be taking the view that the spell is an AOE sphere centered on yourself, with a range of self... I don’t have a physical PHB handy to compare it’s spell header vs dndbeyond’s (I know they reformatted them a bit and aren’t quite RAW), but I imagine that’s not quite what the spell describes.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It is range 60 feet, not self (60 ft sphere). I checked.
Range self (60 ft sphere) would only be true for an AOE spell. Something like Aid has Range 30 ft and says: 3 target creatures within range.
Poor goats. :-( What did goats ever do to that Druid? Why would they want to hurt the goats by dropping them on people? Having the goats run around butting them would be much nicer, and probably more effective. Last time this one was raised it was camels.
As a DM I'd find a way to penalize a Druid who abused animals. If they want the Forces of Nature to help them out, they shouldn't be using those forces in ways that give the animal no choice in how they do it.
Given this is the forum for rules and game mechanics, I'd do this: The player loses all spells and abilities that allow the conjuration of creatures, and cannot Wildshape until they have taken a Long Rest and made a sacrifice pleasing to the Forces of Nature.
<Insert clever signature here>
Right. Aid is a spell effecting creatures that the player targets within range, not random creatures within an AOE. If a DM were to say that the player does not target any spaces, but rather an effect occurs at some random spaces within a dome or circle defined by radius X... that sounds like an AOE, which Conjure Animals (and Aid) is not. That was my point, that a reasonable DM CAN’T take targeting away from player without changing the spell’s range.
Really, a lot of spells could have been defined as either a range or as an AOE centered on caster, it’s somewhat arbitrary... but to the extent there’s a difference, I think only an AOE would allow DM to take control of what random spaces are effected.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Depends on what kind of game you have. If it's lighthearted and silly and encourages creativity, allow it. If it's serious and tactical, don't. As the DM, you are under no obligation to follow rules as written or "official" online interpretations. Do you want every battle to involve dropping heavy animals on the enemies for lethal damage? Would your player do that if it was their most damaging attack, or would they limit it to once to avoid it becoming boring?
I stole the idea of Polymorphing enemies into air-breathing sea creatures like a Killer Whale from Critical Role. They can't move, but don't suffocate and have a bag of hit points. But I don't spam this tactic. Instead I've turned an enemy into a snail and had the wizard's familiar carry it far away. I've turned a friend into a T-rex for damage output and a friend into a giant eagle to fly out of reach and maintain concentration on a Banishment.
That’s just it. It’s a fairly serious type of game, but it was such a creative use of the spell, and the player was really excited by the idea that I just rolled with the rule of cool. It’s a fairly new player so I’m not sure if he’s going to try to spam it going forward. However, they are being scryed by the BBEG and now he knows the trick and tactics.
I absolutely disagree with the design team on this one, I think they have it wrong. That being said, most DMs aren’t going to sabotage your spell just because they can. But you are creating something, that is what conjugation magic is. It’s like getting a pile of wood and using your carpentry skill and asking the DM what you made. That’s just plain silly. Furthermore, it has to be something the character has seen, so the DM can filter out creatures they do not want used by never introducing them to their game. The rules are more like guidelines anyway… (I feel like I’m quoting Barbossa)
First off, you just bumped a 2-year-old thread.
Second, conjuration is not only creation magic, but also summoning. This is a summon effect. Portals and such also use conjuration as their school.