Telekinetic feat teaches you Mage Hand cantrip. This feat also allows you to shove a creature 5 ft as a bonus action.
My question: is this shoving a creature as bonus action considered to be a spell (like using Mage Hand cantrip to do it)?
For example, can I use bonus action to shove a creature and still use an Action to cast a spell? (as rules allows only spell as bonus action and cantrip as an action within one turn) Or, can a creature use its magic resistance ability to get advantage to the Strength save against this shovig feature?
Mmm, I would say it is debatable whether “telekinetically” is a specific sub-type of “magically.” If so, then the feat DOES describe itself as being magical.
Well now you're getting into lore debate. The question isn't: Is Telekinetic a spell? It's: Are psionic abilities connected to the weave?
I don't know enough about the lore to debate this question, but I do know one thing. Telekinetic is a feature, not a spell. But whether or not it's magical is up in the air.
Well now you're getting into lore debate. The question isn't: Is Telekinetic a spell? It's: Are psionic abilities connected to the weave?
I don't know enough about the lore to debate this question, but I do know one thing. Telekinetic a feature, not a spell. But whether or not it's magical is up in the air.
Whether or not things are magical (in a way that's relevant to the rules) is actually pretty well-defined. The shove granted by the Telekinetic feat is definitely not.
Well now you're getting into lore debate. The question isn't: Is Telekinetic a spell? It's: Are psionic abilities connected to the weave?
I don't know enough about the lore to debate this question, but I do know one thing. Telekinetic a feature, not a spell. But whether or not it's magical is up in the air.
Whether or not things are magical (in a way that's relevant to the rules) is actually pretty well-defined. The shove granted by the Telekinetic feat is definitely not.
To elaborate: the well-defined rule is: it is a spell or described as magic.
So psionics that cast spells are magic, but other psionics are generally not. This is not.
Citation to where “magical” is defined as not including “telekinetic,” or vice versa? I’m aware of the SAC that describes baseline-fantasy-magic (like dragon breath) as not being “magical” in the way that matters for things that look for magical effects... but calling this shove “telekinetic” is explicit that whatever “telekinetic” means in a setting, this shove is that.
If an ability said, “using abjuration, you create a shimmering wall of force” or something like that, I’d argue that there’s a strong RAI that “abjuration” is a type of “magic”, and because since there’s no such thing as non-magical abjuration, therefor that’s an explicitly magical ability.
This seems similar to that hypothetical, unless the DMs setting is one in which “telekinesis” can be a psionic or supernatural power that isn’t a subtype of “magic”. I’m not finding language in Tasha’s to quote, but I thought that recent releases of psionic subclasses were taking the position that psionics are a third type of magic, alongside divine and arcane, but that kind of setting fluff is very DM dependent.
I’d be ok with a DM declaring that the feat represents non-magical telekinesis. But if telekinesis is magical in general, this wording would be enough to make that a magical shove.
Citation to where “magical” is defined as not including “telekinetic,” or vice versa? I’m aware of the SAC that describes baseline-fantasy-magic (like dragon breath) as not being “magical” in the way that matters for things that look for magical effects... but calling this shove “telekinetic” is explicit that whatever “telekinetic” means in a setting, this shove is that.
If an ability said, “using abjuration, you create a shimmering wall of force” or something like that, I’d argue that there’s a strong RAI that “abjuration” is a type of “magic”, and because since there’s no such thing as non-magical abjuration, therefor that’s an explicitly magical ability.
This seems similar to that hypothetical, unless the DMs setting is one in which “telekinesis” can be a psionic or supernatural power that isn’t a subtype of “magic”. I’m not finding language in Tasha’s to quote, but I thought that recent releases of psionic subclasses were taking the position that psionics are a third type of magic, alongside divine and arcane, but that kind of setting fluff is very DM dependent.
I’d be ok with a DM declaring that the feat represents non-magical telekinesis. But if telekinesis is magical in general, this wording would be enough to make that a magical shove.
Is it a magic item?
Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
Is it a spell attack?
Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
Does its description say it’s magical?
Alright, so, from here, let's look at how the Telekinetic feat describes the shove feature.
As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
It isn't a magic item, it is a feat. so... No. It is not a spell, and it doesn't mention a spell in the description here. (the Feat itself mentions Mage Hand specifically, but that is not relevant to the current discussion). Is it a spell attack? No, it's a saving throw that you force. Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? Nope, just a bonus action. Does the description say it is magical? No.
So the shove action is not magic.
If it mentioned the spell telekinesis *anywhere*, then it might be. But straight up, as it stands, it is not defined to be magical by the RAW of what makes something magical.
No, it doesn't matter that telekinesis (the power) is codified as magic by the *spell* Telekinesis, because this specific Feat is a different, separate feat that makes no reference to it. It is not magical.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
My answer to that is that if you already know the mage hand spell, this feat makes it better. Since the Mage Hand spell is magical (being a spell) and this extends its range, then it is at least implied that this feat is likewise magical.
Now that is only implied, mind.
Except Mage Hand is a separate point of the feat that has no bearing on the shove feature in question.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
My answer to that is that if you already know the mage hand spell, this feat makes it better. Since the Mage Hand spell is magical (being a spell) and this extends its range, then it is at least implied that this feat is likewise magical.
Now that is only implied, mind.
Except Mage Hand is a separate point of the feat that has no bearing on the shove feature in question.
The word 'implied' covers such. If it was outright stated that it was magical, then it would be outright stated as such and not merely implied.
And the RAW of it boils down to "is it explicitly called magical? no? then it's not magic."
...unless we are literally arguing the same point because implication =/= actually... cause honestly, it's hard to tell sometimes.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
RAW the feat is not magic in any aspect. It is a feature and cannot be countered by a counterspell or anything similar. Another thing is that you want to give it "color", and say that thematically it is "magic". But as rules, it is not.
Edit:
However, the mage hand cantrip is indeed a spell. As for that, it is magic. But the ability to shove it's not in any way (as far as rules).
The ability to learn the spell or to cast it with different components, range or invisibility is not magical.
It is not a gift certificate to learn the cantrip. You simply learn the cantrip automatically as part of taking the feat, just as you learn all other aspects. Yes, the act of invoking the shove is not magical but neither is the actual casting of a spell.
the actual casting of Mage Hand is magical because, it is a specific spell that you learn on picking the feat.
"Is it a Spell?" Yes, Mage Hand is a spell, thus Mage Hand is magical.
while the shove still is not.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
The actual casting is words and hand gestures, not magic. The effects of the spell cast are magical. You do not cast a spell to be able to cast a spell. You cast a spell to generate the magical effects of the spell.
It's actually more than that;
What is a Spell? A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect—in most cases, all in the span of seconds
The actual casting is words and hand gestures, not magic. The effects of the spell cast are magical. You do not cast a spell to be able to cast a spell. You cast a spell to generate the magical effects of the spell.
It's actually more than that;
What is a Spell? A spell is a discrete magical effect, a single shaping of the magical energies that suffuse the multiverse into a specific, limited expression. In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect—in most cases, all in the span of seconds
Well yes, but the act of plucking in and of itself is not magical.
I don't know, let's me question spellcasting:
• Is it a magic item? No
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? Yes
• Is it a spell attack? No
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? Yes
• Does its description say it’s magical? No
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.
So cantrip casting is not magical then. Which includes the casting of Mage Hands, where is where my point started. The results create the magical effect, but nothing is created until the casting is complete.
Casting a cantrip let you create the effects of a spell so it is magical
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Telekinetic feat teaches you Mage Hand cantrip. This feat also allows you to shove a creature 5 ft as a bonus action.
My question: is this shoving a creature as bonus action considered to be a spell (like using Mage Hand cantrip to do it)?
For example, can I use bonus action to shove a creature and still use an Action to cast a spell? (as rules allows only spell as bonus action and cantrip as an action within one turn)
Or, can a creature use its magic resistance ability to get advantage to the Strength save against this shovig feature?
It is not a spell, no.
[EDIT] It’s also not described as being magical, so magic resistance does not grant advantage on the saving throw.
Mmm, I would say it is debatable whether “telekinetically” is a specific sub-type of “magically.” If so, then the feat DOES describe itself as being magical.
But in either case, no, the shove is not a spell.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Well now you're getting into lore debate. The question isn't: Is Telekinetic a spell? It's: Are psionic abilities connected to the weave?
I don't know enough about the lore to debate this question, but I do know one thing. Telekinetic is a feature, not a spell. But whether or not it's magical is up in the air.
Whether or not things are magical (in a way that's relevant to the rules) is actually pretty well-defined. The shove granted by the Telekinetic feat is definitely not.
To elaborate: the well-defined rule is: it is a spell or described as magic.
So psionics that cast spells are magic, but other psionics are generally not. This is not.
Citation to where “magical” is defined as not including “telekinetic,” or vice versa? I’m aware of the SAC that describes baseline-fantasy-magic (like dragon breath) as not being “magical” in the way that matters for things that look for magical effects... but calling this shove “telekinetic” is explicit that whatever “telekinetic” means in a setting, this shove is that.
If an ability said, “using abjuration, you create a shimmering wall of force” or something like that, I’d argue that there’s a strong RAI that “abjuration” is a type of “magic”, and because since there’s no such thing as non-magical abjuration, therefor that’s an explicitly magical ability.
This seems similar to that hypothetical, unless the DMs setting is one in which “telekinesis” can be a psionic or supernatural power that isn’t a subtype of “magic”. I’m not finding language in Tasha’s to quote, but I thought that recent releases of psionic subclasses were taking the position that psionics are a third type of magic, alongside divine and arcane, but that kind of setting fluff is very DM dependent.
I’d be ok with a DM declaring that the feat represents non-magical telekinesis. But if telekinesis is magical in general, this wording would be enough to make that a magical shove.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Could you use the shove while in wild shape?
Yes.
Alright, so, from here, let's look at how the Telekinetic feat describes the shove feature.
It isn't a magic item, it is a feat. so... No.
It is not a spell, and it doesn't mention a spell in the description here. (the Feat itself mentions Mage Hand specifically, but that is not relevant to the current discussion).
Is it a spell attack? No, it's a saving throw that you force.
Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? Nope, just a bonus action.
Does the description say it is magical? No.
So the shove action is not magic.
If it mentioned the spell telekinesis *anywhere*, then it might be. But straight up, as it stands, it is not defined to be magical by the RAW of what makes something magical.
No, it doesn't matter that telekinesis (the power) is codified as magic by the *spell* Telekinesis, because this specific Feat is a different, separate feat that makes no reference to it. It is not magical.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I agree, Telekinetic's effect aren't magical by any 5E standards. They might be extraordinarly superhuman, but not magical in nature.
Except Mage Hand is a separate point of the feat that has no bearing on the shove feature in question.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
And the RAW of it boils down to "is it explicitly called magical? no? then it's not magic."
...unless we are literally arguing the same point because implication =/= actually... cause honestly, it's hard to tell sometimes.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
RAW the feat is not magic in any aspect. It is a feature and cannot be countered by a counterspell or anything similar.
Another thing is that you want to give it "color", and say that thematically it is "magic". But as rules, it is not.
Edit:
However, the mage hand cantrip is indeed a spell. As for that, it is magic. But the ability to shove it's not in any way (as far as rules).
The created Mage Hand is magical
The ability to learn the spell or to cast it with different components, range or invisibility is not magical.
the actual casting of Mage Hand is magical because, it is a specific spell that you learn on picking the feat.
"Is it a Spell?" Yes, Mage Hand is a spell, thus Mage Hand is magical.
while the shove still is not.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
It's actually more than that;
I don't know, let's me question spellcasting:
• Is it a magic item? No
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? Yes
• Is it a spell attack? No
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? Yes
• Does its description say it’s magical? No
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.
Casting a cantrip let you create the effects of a spell so it is magical