How far can a player generally see, provided there is nothing to obstruct their line of sight? As a follow up, do you impose disadvantage on character who are making attack rolls from beyond a certain range? (even if they would have clear line of sight)? I have 2 characters who have been built like artillery batteries, and are currently lobbing multiple attack per turn at a max range of 600 feet.
I mean, 600 ft. is something like the length of a typical sports stadium (soccer field + running track), easy enough to make out targets at that range.
If they are hidden, I'd start handing out disadvantage on perception checks at approximately 350-400 feet.
spell sniper, on warlock with eldritch spear invocation.
i expect this fight to be an absolute cluster F***. Unless people start burning some decent leveled magic to close the gap, i figure this is likely going to end up being 6-10 rounds of just getting pounded at range. Not to mention the real chance the warlocks play a game of "tag" moving back and casting each turn (they will be out paced but that still probably an additional 3-4 turns of chasing them.)
I figure it's mostly an open field, probably some light cover in the form of a couple trees here and there maybe a few large stones that characters could hide behind for like half or 3/4 cover. Basically it's the ideal place to set up a trap (or clash armies against each other), even more so when your team can abuse their long range. I figure most people would flee after a couple rounds of the earth exploding around them/ their allies getting falling to the onslaught of arcane ****ery.
There is a difference between having line of sight and being able to identify what you are looking at. That is why telescopes were invented.
The official encounter and visibility table Geann posted reflects that pretty well. It allows encounters in highly visible areas to start up to 400 feet away, which makes sense (spotting people or animals from 2 football fields away isn't hard, but identifying them from that far is).
Its funny, because I don't think I've ever had an encounter start further than 90 feet away, much less 6d6x10, or 600+. Optimizing insane Eldritch Blast range on a flying character has always felt like an exercise in mere theory crafting, because real D&D encounters are generally close and tight with interesting terrain. Rather than nerfing your players' abilities to lower their range, spend an afternoon looking for some interesting battle maps you can work through, that integrate creative terrain that makes it not just an open firing range.
Or, do have fights like that, and start giving enemies that sort of firepower! The group may be all grins when they're sniping goblins from across the map, but when you give them an objective where they have to advance (to save someone maybe?), for round after round, through blistering ballista and longbow fire? That'll put the shoe firmly on the other foot, and give them a taste of their own medicine.
is the logic there, identifying what exactly they are (person, large animal, a pile of rocks)? Are they friend or foe? Or is it more "there are people over there... somewhere between 300-600 feet away.... couldn't tell you exactly how far"
is the logic there, identifying what exactly they are (person, large animal, a pile of rocks)? Are they friend or foe? Or is it more "there are people over there... somewhere between 300-600 feet away.... couldn't tell you exactly how far"
They're not us, so OBVIOUSLY they are the bad guys!
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
i mean to be fair, this fight is generally kicked off by 2 of the NPC's signaling their allies, by way of colored smoke, and then porting out. I don't imagine most mages are thinking to have counterspell at the ready (to counter dimension door) before combat even starts.
is the logic there, identifying what exactly they are (person, large animal, a pile of rocks)? Are they friend or foe? Or is it more "there are people over there... somewhere between 300-600 feet away.... couldn't tell you exactly how far"
Some combination of all of it is what I assume at least.
I always liked the Limit of Vision found in the AD&D 2nd edition Player's Handbook as a guideline regarding vision distance.
Limits of Vision
The first limitation on vision is how far away an object can be before it cannot be seen clearly. Size and weather have a great effect on this. Mountains can be seen from great distances, 60 to 100 miles or more, yet virtually no detail can be seen. On level ground, the horizon is about five to 12 miles away, but a character usually cannot see a specific object that far away. The limit of vision for seeing and identifying man-sized objects is much less than this.
Under optimum conditions, the maximum range at which a man-sized object can be seen is about 1,500 yards, if it is moving. If the object doesn't move, it usually cannot be seen at this distance. Even if it is moving, all that can be seen is a moving object. The character cannot tell what it is or what it is doing.
At 1,000 yards, both moving and stationary man-sized objects can be spotted. General size and shape can be determined, but exact identifications are impossible. It is not likely that creature type can be identified at this range, unless the creature has a very unique shape.
At 500 yards, general identifications can be made. Size, shape, color, and creature type are all distinguishable. Individuals still cannot be identified, unless they are distinctively dressed or separated from the rest of the group. Livery and heraldic symbols or banners can be seen if large and bold. Most coats of arms cannot be distinguished at this distance. General actions can be ascertained with confidence.
At 100 yards, individuals can be identified (unless, of course, their features are concealed). Coats of arms are clear. Most actions are easily seen, although small events are unclear.
At 10 yards, all details but the smallest are clear. Emotions and actions are easily seen, including such small actions as pick-pocketing (if it is detectable).
Of course, conditions are seldom perfect. There are a number of factors that can reduce visibility and alter the ranges at which things can be spotted and identified. Table 62 lists the effects of different types of conditions.
All ranges are given in yards.
“Movement” indicates the maximum distance at which a moving figure can be seen. “Spotted” is the maximum distance a moving or a stationary figure can be seen. “Type” gives the maximum distance at which the general details of a figure can be seen--species or race, weapons, etc. “ID” range enables exact (or reasonably exact) identification. “Detail” range means small actions can be seen clearly.
There are many factors other than weather that affect viewing. Size is an important factor. When looking at a small creature (size S), all categories are reduced to the next lower category (except the “detail” range, which remains unchanged). Thus, under clear conditions, the ranges for seeing a small creature are “movement” at 1,000 yards, “spotted” at 500 yards, “type” at 100 yards, and “ID” and “detail” at 10 yards.
i mean to be fair, this fight is generally kicked off by 2 of the NPC's signaling their allies, by way of colored smoke, and then porting out. I don't imagine most mages are thinking to have counterspell at the ready (to counter dimension door) before combat even starts.
You have counterspell ready all the time if it's in your spell list and you have it prepared..
How far can a player generally see, provided there is nothing to obstruct their line of sight?
my character can see at a distance ~2.5 million light years, which is roughly the distance to the IRL andromeda galaxy, about the furthest object visible to the naked IRL eye.
D&D has never used terribly realistic spotting ranges, and the game is balanced around assuming that a melee character has something like a 50% chance of wasting a single round getting into range. I've considered giving missile weapons -1/10' (and no, sharpshooter doesn't help) and spell save DC +1/10' with success by 10 being completely unaffected, so melee characters actually have a chance to do something in an outdoors combat.
D&D has never used terribly realistic spotting ranges, and the game is balanced around assuming that a melee character has something like a 50% chance of wasting a single round getting into range. I've considered giving missile weapons -1/10' (and no, sharpshooter doesn't help) and spell save DC +1/10' with success by 10 being completely unaffected, so melee characters actually have a chance to do something in an outdoors combat.
Those are some harsh aim penalties. The long range of weapons already accounts for loss in accuracy over distance. If you want a fair house rule, get rid of disadvantage at long range and make the penalty -1/30', then make sharpshooter half the penalty (-1/60'). Saves don't need adjusted, they are already usually easier to dodge than an attack.
That's intended (I don't want fights occurring at 300'), but it actually isn't unreasonable for archery, hitting a mobile target when projectile travel time is more than half a second or so is almost purely a function of luck, and that's under 100' for any of the ranged weapons normally available to PCs in D&D (it's upwards of 1,000' for a modern rifle and completely irrelevant for lasers, but those aren't normally available).
Hello? Terrain? Stealth? Is your world all just open fields?
Spotting distances in RL forests are actually usually very short. Sound does not carry that far either. The trees absorb a lot of it.
For a melee combatant to be relevant round 1, engagement range has to be 10 yards or less. For them to be relevant round 2, it has to be 30 yards or less. 30 yards is a really short distance.
How far can a player generally see, provided there is nothing to obstruct their line of sight? As a follow up, do you impose disadvantage on character who are making attack rolls from beyond a certain range? (even if they would have clear line of sight)? I have 2 characters who have been built like artillery batteries, and are currently lobbing multiple attack per turn at a max range of 600 feet.
I mean, 600 ft. is something like the length of a typical sports stadium (soccer field + running track), easy enough to make out targets at that range.
If they are hidden, I'd start handing out disadvantage on perception checks at approximately 350-400 feet.
spell sniper, on warlock with eldritch spear invocation.
i expect this fight to be an absolute cluster F***. Unless people start burning some decent leveled magic to close the gap, i figure this is likely going to end up being 6-10 rounds of just getting pounded at range. Not to mention the real chance the warlocks play a game of "tag" moving back and casting each turn (they will be out paced but that still probably an additional 3-4 turns of chasing them.)
If this goes across an open field, that is the main problem with high range attacks.
Advancing through cover and breaking line of sight is the way to go. Smart enemies do not just run into the killing field.
I figure it's mostly an open field, probably some light cover in the form of a couple trees here and there maybe a few large stones that characters could hide behind for like half or 3/4 cover. Basically it's the ideal place to set up a trap (or clash armies against each other), even more so when your team can abuse their long range. I figure most people would flee after a couple rounds of the earth exploding around them/ their allies getting falling to the onslaught of arcane ****ery.
From the 5th Edition Core Rules Deluxe Boxed Set DM's Screen
<Insert clever signature here>
Not too many 600 foot range fights going on in a dungeon, or a city, or heavy forest.
Even on a map that says "flats" the world isn't really flat like a tabletop. So there should be obstacles or dips and hills to block line of sight.
If not, then your fights are going to be boring.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
There is a difference between having line of sight and being able to identify what you are looking at. That is why telescopes were invented.
The official encounter and visibility table Geann posted reflects that pretty well. It allows encounters in highly visible areas to start up to 400 feet away, which makes sense (spotting people or animals from 2 football fields away isn't hard, but identifying them from that far is).
Its funny, because I don't think I've ever had an encounter start further than 90 feet away, much less 6d6x10, or 600+. Optimizing insane Eldritch Blast range on a flying character has always felt like an exercise in mere theory crafting, because real D&D encounters are generally close and tight with interesting terrain. Rather than nerfing your players' abilities to lower their range, spend an afternoon looking for some interesting battle maps you can work through, that integrate creative terrain that makes it not just an open firing range.
Or, do have fights like that, and start giving enemies that sort of firepower! The group may be all grins when they're sniping goblins from across the map, but when you give them an objective where they have to advance (to save someone maybe?), for round after round, through blistering ballista and longbow fire? That'll put the shoe firmly on the other foot, and give them a taste of their own medicine.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
is the logic there, identifying what exactly they are (person, large animal, a pile of rocks)? Are they friend or foe? Or is it more "there are people over there... somewhere between 300-600 feet away.... couldn't tell you exactly how far"
They're not us, so OBVIOUSLY they are the bad guys!
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
i mean to be fair, this fight is generally kicked off by 2 of the NPC's signaling their allies, by way of colored smoke, and then porting out. I don't imagine most mages are thinking to have counterspell at the ready (to counter dimension door) before combat even starts.
Some combination of all of it is what I assume at least.
I always liked the Limit of Vision found in the AD&D 2nd edition Player's Handbook as a guideline regarding vision distance.
Limits of Vision
The first limitation on vision is how far away an object can be before it cannot be seen clearly. Size and weather have a great effect on this. Mountains can be seen from great distances, 60 to 100 miles or more, yet virtually no detail can be seen. On level ground, the horizon is about five to 12 miles away, but a character usually cannot see a specific object that far away. The limit of vision for seeing and identifying man-sized objects is much less than this.
Under optimum conditions, the maximum range at which a man-sized object can be seen is about 1,500 yards, if it is moving. If the object doesn't move, it usually cannot be seen at this distance. Even if it is moving, all that can be seen is a moving object. The character cannot tell what it is or what it is doing.
At 1,000 yards, both moving and stationary man-sized objects can be spotted. General size and shape can be determined, but exact identifications are impossible. It is not likely that creature type can be identified at this range, unless the creature has a very unique shape.
At 500 yards, general identifications can be made. Size, shape, color, and creature type are all distinguishable. Individuals still cannot be identified, unless they are distinctively dressed or separated from the rest of the group. Livery and heraldic symbols or banners can be seen if large and bold. Most coats of arms cannot be distinguished at this distance. General actions can be ascertained with confidence.
At 100 yards, individuals can be identified (unless, of course, their features are concealed). Coats of arms are clear. Most actions are easily seen, although small events are unclear.
At 10 yards, all details but the smallest are clear. Emotions and actions are easily seen, including such small actions as pick-pocketing (if it is detectable).
Of course, conditions are seldom perfect. There are a number of factors that can reduce visibility and alter the ranges at which things can be spotted and identified. Table 62 lists the effects of different types of conditions.
All ranges are given in yards.
“Movement” indicates the maximum distance at which a moving figure can be seen. “Spotted” is the maximum distance a moving or a stationary figure can be seen. “Type” gives the maximum distance at which the general details of a figure can be seen--species or race, weapons, etc. “ID” range enables exact (or reasonably exact) identification. “Detail” range means small actions can be seen clearly.
There are many factors other than weather that affect viewing. Size is an important factor. When looking at a small creature (size S), all categories are reduced to the next lower category (except the “detail” range, which remains unchanged). Thus, under clear conditions, the ranges for seeing a small creature are “movement” at 1,000 yards, “spotted” at 500 yards, “type” at 100 yards, and “ID” and “detail” at 10 yards.
You have counterspell ready all the time if it's in your spell list and you have it prepared..
my character can see at a distance ~2.5 million light years, which is roughly the distance to the IRL andromeda galaxy, about the furthest object visible to the naked IRL eye.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
D&D has never used terribly realistic spotting ranges, and the game is balanced around assuming that a melee character has something like a 50% chance of wasting a single round getting into range. I've considered giving missile weapons -1/10' (and no, sharpshooter doesn't help) and spell save DC +1/10' with success by 10 being completely unaffected, so melee characters actually have a chance to do something in an outdoors combat.
Can you explain what sort of game you're playing where this is a regular occurrence?
Those are some harsh aim penalties. The long range of weapons already accounts for loss in accuracy over distance. If you want a fair house rule, get rid of disadvantage at long range and make the penalty -1/30', then make sharpshooter half the penalty (-1/60'). Saves don't need adjusted, they are already usually easier to dodge than an attack.
That's intended (I don't want fights occurring at 300'), but it actually isn't unreasonable for archery, hitting a mobile target when projectile travel time is more than half a second or so is almost purely a function of luck, and that's under 100' for any of the ranged weapons normally available to PCs in D&D (it's upwards of 1,000' for a modern rifle and completely irrelevant for lasers, but those aren't normally available).
For a melee combatant to be relevant round 1, engagement range has to be 10 yards or less. For them to be relevant round 2, it has to be 30 yards or less. 30 yards is a really short distance.