Here's my understanding of how this would work on a ranged rogue build with a hand crossbow and Crossbow expert:
Because hand crossbow is one-handed, and I can ignore the loading quality of crossbows, when I use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, I could use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow I am holding. According to Jeremy Crawford in Sage Advice, "a character needs to have a hand crossbow in one hand and nothing in their off hand in order to make additional attacks through the bonus action attack afforded by Crossbow Expert."
Sounds like this means I can attack twice with a hand crossbow every turn. Ideally the first attack would be a sneak attack, but I could still fire again for regular attack with the bonus action. Is this correct?
Basically, yes, but either attack can be a sneak attack if it qualifies - and neither will qualify unless you take steps, as you won't be using your bonus action to Hide.
Basically, yes, but either attack can be a sneak attack if it qualifies - and neither will qualify unless you take steps, as you won't be using your bonus action to Hide.
Relying on being hidden to get sneak attack is extraordinarily rare. By far the easiest and most common means of getting sneak attack is for your target to have an enemy other than you within five feet of it.
To OP: yes, your understanding is correct (and indeed, this is the intended use of the Crossbow Expert feat). quindraco's first point is also well made: if your first attack misses, the second one can still be a sneak attack, if the conditions are met (again, it's just worth pointing out that rogues are almost never using their bonus action to meet those conditions; they're relying on the rest of the party instead).
As an aside -- I used to think you could also use a 1-handed melee weapon and then fire the hand-crossbow. (One other benefit from Crossbow Expert, of firing in melee without disadvantage led me to think this was also an intended use), but the ruling about needing an empty hand (for ammunition) made that tactic pretty worthless.
Add to that, the idea that you can't pre-load a crossbow (according to some readings of the RAW -- which I think is a rather idiotic way to read the rules, but YMMV), and you can't even set this up in the round before (load hand crossbow with Use an Object action, move and draw rapier for free. Next round, attack with Rapier, fire crossbow)
So the only real RAW use is the one-hand rapid fire crossbow.. which is also the most powerful use of the feat. (Throw in Sharpshooter and 5 fighter levels for Extra Attack)
Thanks everyone for the feedback. Right now I only plan on taking one level of fighter for the +2 to atk, but I've heard of taking three levels for Precision Attack through Battle Master, or five levels for extra attack. I do plan on taking Sharpshooter later on as well.
My concern is that sneak attacked would be crippled as a result of possibly too many fighter levels. I'm also not sure when to take them. At level 2? Level 5? Thoughts on this?
Crossbow Expert for more instances of Sharpshooter +10 damage, and Crossbow Expert for more chances to land a big Sneak Attack, are both excellent uses for Crossbow Expert.
They also aren't usually both on the same character. Rogues in general don't multiclass particularly well, because every 1-2 levels you put elsewhere, you're getting 1d6 less Sneak Attack dice. Fighters that are being built to exploit Sharpshooter (or GWM) don't multiclass particularly well, because devoting levels to pick up a d6 of bonus damage here or there is usually less effective than reaching another tier of Extra Attack to made more weapon+Dex/Str+10 attacks. A rogue whose DPR is dependent on hitting with a sneak attack once EVERY round is doing very different math than a fighter whose DPR is dependent on landing as many +10 damage hits as possible over a three round combat, even if they occasionally miss all their attacks on any given round from -5 Sharpshooter penalties.
Zoomed out from level 20, there are some sweet spots where a Rogue X/Fighter 3 or Fighter 5 might make sense, or a Fighter X/Rogue Y might make sense... but level to level from level 1? A fighter will suffer from time spent chasing rogue levels, and a rogue will suffer from time spent chasing fighter levels, and both are perfectly capable of using Crossbow Expert to great effect within their own class. Only the Fighter will really care about Sharpshooter, though both will have room for it somewhere between level 8 and 12.
I have a question regarding the Artificer Infusion Repeating Shot which reads: "
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
From what I've read regarding XBowXpert, this means that you DON'T need the other hand to be empty to reload the Hand XBow because the ammunition magically appears. This means that you could use your Attack Action to fire AND use the Bonus Action to fire once more, all while holding something in the other hand like a shield or another weapon.
Thanks everyone for the feedback. Right now I only plan on taking one level of fighter for the +2 to atk, but I've heard of taking three levels for Precision Attack through Battle Master, or five levels for extra attack. I do plan on taking Sharpshooter later on as well.
My concern is that sneak attacked would be crippled as a result of possibly too many fighter levels. I'm also not sure when to take them. At level 2? Level 5? Thoughts on this?
That very much depends on what exactly you want out of the character. If you're playing Sharpshooter focus, then most of your damage comes from Extra Attacks, since every successful hit gives +10 damage. So more fighter levels turns out to be a great idea. This is where you start to think "Can I get Fighter 11 in this build?" :) If you're really wanting huge sneak attacks, then you have to ask "how much sneak attack am I willing to give up?". But don't forget that you do have to hit, and more attacks is usually more chances to hit. (That's why the bonus attack from Xbow Expert is great for Rogues, giving them a second chance to apply the SA if they miss the first).
I've played a F5/R2 (campaign ended too soon) Crossbow Expert and he was a blast. I originally planned to be just a Fighter, but adding rogue made more sense in the context of the game (it turned out the game was very skills-focused and less combat focused). And I'm glad I did. Even +1d6 SA on one of my 3 attacks is nice. And the skills were vital. Xbow expert competes with Cunning Action for that Bonus Action, but I liked having the options. Most of the time I didn't need to move or hide, since I had melee allies who engaged the enemies and triggered SA just fine. Also, I took Battlemaster for the extra options. Hitting someone with menacing attack or tripping them so your melee ally gets advantage is great. Precision is useful, especially if you do go Sharpshooter. Note that many of the Battlemaster maneuvers are "when you hit", so they are great to use when you crit, since most of them let you roll more dice for damage.
My advice: If you want to do loads of damage, you can't go wrong with a mix of Fighter and Rogue. If you're SA focused, I'd say a decent dip is F2 for Action Surge, or F3 for the subclass (If allowed, Echo Knight is also a good subclass for rogues). If you want to concentrate on Sharpshooter for damage output, then Fighter 5 is good, but really, by this point you're probably level 10+, which many campaigns don't reach. Another option to consider is Gloomstalker Ranger, instead of fighter. It also gets Archery, and the Dread Ambusher is very nice. Not to mention that you're invisible to creatures using darkvision to see you in the dark.
As for when you should take the levels : since I started Fighter, I wanted Extra Attack first, so my choice was easy. As a Rogue, you probably want your subclass because it might give you some character-defining ability. And then you might want the ASI for 4th, and then the temptation is to get Uncanny Dodge so you can reduce some damage. For me, I like to play with the character builder to see what the trade-offs are at each level. F1 for Archery is probably the best thing to do at the lower levels. It's a fantastic buff to your damage regardless of which class is your focus.
Thanks for all the constructive feedback, it's helping clarify what I want my rogue to do. I see him as primarily trying to get SA every turn. My thought with Sharpshooter was that I could snipe from up to 120' without a penalty, which I'd love asap. The -5+10 (power attack really) is a secondary benefit for me, being worth it at later levels.
I definitely want him primarily as a rogue, not a fighter. Right now I'm thinking I'll take fighter at character level 2. Nobody is competent at level 1 but the +2 and second wind will put me ahead of the curve early on. Then I may take a second fighter level after my ASI. It's either take the levels then or wait until after my second ASI. Action surge is fine, but I'd be using it once per encounter at most. I like the idea of precision attack to help get the SA in, but don't I get three maneuvers? Are there two other ones worth taking? Maybe ambush.
Part of my problem is I don't know if it's better to take an ASI or feat?
Thanks for all the constructive feedback, it's helping clarify what I want my rogue to do. I see him as primarily trying to get SA every turn. My thought with Sharpshooter was that I could snipe from up to 120' without a penalty, which I'd love asap. The -5+10 (power attack really) is a secondary benefit for me, being worth it at later levels.
I definitely want him primarily as a rogue, not a fighter. Right now I'm thinking I'll take fighter at character level 2. Nobody is competent at level 1 but the +2 and second wind will put me ahead of the curve early on. Then I may take a second fighter level after my ASI. It's either take the levels then or wait until after my second ASI. Action surge is fine, but I'd be using it once per encounter at most. I like the idea of precision attack to help get the SA in, but don't I get three maneuvers? Are there two other ones worth taking? Maybe ambush.
Part of my problem is I don't know if it's better to take an ASI or feat?
J
The range bonus from SS and the ability to ignore partial cover is also extremely useful, especially if you want to be shooting from further than 30 feet. As you point out : the usefulness of the -5/+10 is quite dependent on the average AC of your enemies, and whether you can reliably get Advantage. Going R1/F1 is good for that boost to your survivability and your +2 to hit. Waiting till after F1/R4 before going F2 is also a good break point. Action Surge will be good. I'd consider going F3 for Battlemaster right away. (You ought to be able to avoid melee, so Uncanny dodge can be delayed a level). Yes you get several maneuvers. I'm not as familiar with the best maneuvers. I ran my PC a couple of years back before the new ones came out. I did enjoy Menacing Attack and Trip, because they were both useful most of the time (in the campaign I was in -- mostly humanoid enemies). Ambush is nice, but unless you're going Assassin, you might be better off spending superiority dice to make your attacks hit or hit harder. There are a lot of teamwork maneuvers, like Bait and Switch, Distracting Strike, Maneuvering Attack, etc. These can be great if you have a good team. Hopefully by the time you're 7th level you'll have a good idea what works
I’ll hazard you probably never have a single encounter where you need to take a shot from further than 60 feet, but that 30-60 sweet spot does come up, so sharpshooter to extend range for sneak attacks with a hand crossbow is a decent boon.
Id still take Dex to 20 first, though, And crossbow expert too, which means if you’re using point buy and starting at 17 dex you’re looking at a level 12 fighter, a level 12 rogue, or a fighter 8/rogue 4, or a fighter 6/rogue 8 before sharpshooter enters the conversation. It’s not a low-tier feat for a crossbow expert, though a bow-using archer can pick it up one feat earlier.
I’ll hazard you probably never have a single encounter where you need to take a shot from further than 60 feet, but that 30-60 sweet spot does come up, so sharpshooter to extend range for sneak attacks with a hand crossbow is a decent boon.
Id still take Dex to 20 first, though, And crossbow expert too, which means if you’re using point buy and starting at 17 dex you’re looking at a level 12 fighter, a level 12 rogue, or a fighter 8/rogue 4, or a fighter 6/rogue 8 before sharpshooter enters the conversation. It’s not a low-tier feat for a crossbow expert, though a bow-using archer can pick it up one feat earlier.
With Custom Lineage, you can take Crossbow Expert at 1st level, still have a Dex 17, meaning you only need 2 ASIs to get to Dex 20 (or 1 and a half-ASI feat that gives you Dex, but there aren't any worth taking). By my reckoning that means you can be F6/R4 and get SS then. Of course, that means you aren't a Rogue primary any more, so that's not going to really fly with this build :) That said, while I agree that Dex 20 is great, with the +2 from archery, you can be still be effective with only a 17. I'd consider whether the feat might be worth it earlier, depending on how often you're stuck at range, or shooting through cover. Ignoring a +5 AC bonus from 3/4 cover and getting to add SA at up to 120 feet might be worth more than the +1 or +2 if it happens often enough. (But generally, I agree, in the usual campaigns those circumstances don't happen too often).
I’ll hazard you probably never have a single encounter where you need to take a shot from further than 60 feet, but that 30-60 sweet spot does come up, so sharpshooter to extend range for sneak attacks with a hand crossbow is a decent boon.
Id still take Dex to 20 first, though, And crossbow expert too, which means if you’re using point buy and starting at 17 dex you’re looking at a level 12 fighter, a level 12 rogue, or a fighter 8/rogue 4, or a fighter 6/rogue 8 before sharpshooter enters the conversation. It’s not a low-tier feat for a crossbow expert, though a bow-using archer can pick it up one feat earlier.
With Custom Lineage, you can take Crossbow Expert at 1st level, still have a Dex 17, meaning you only need 2 ASIs to get to Dex 20 (or 1 and a half-ASI feat that gives you Dex, but there aren't any worth taking). By my reckoning that means you can be F6/R4 and get SS then. Of course, that means you aren't a Rogue primary any more, so that's not going to really fly with this build :) That said, while I agree that Dex 20 is great, with the +2 from archery, you can be still be effective with only a 17. I'd consider whether the feat might be worth it earlier, depending on how often you're stuck at range, or shooting through cover. Ignoring a +5 AC bonus from 3/4 cover and getting to add SA at up to 120 feet might be worth more than the +1 or +2 if it happens often enough. (But generally, I agree, in the usual campaigns those circumstances don't happen too often).
Piercer is a decent option for a half feat for a Custom Lineage ranged attacker. Its not amazing but does the job of getting your DEX rounded up to a even number.
For… many? Some? Custom Lineage to cheese a starting 18 is frowned on, considering customizing your race origin doesn’t allow assigning a typical +2/+1 to the same stat. And, if you’re still just going to be playing a human, or Elf, or whatever… again, frowned on.
But you are technically correct (the best kind). :)
Piercer is a decent option for a half feat for a Custom Lineage ranged attacker. Its not amazing but does the job of getting your DEX rounded up to a even number.
I completely forgot about Piercer. Yes, that's a great feat for this build.
For… many? Some? Custom Lineage to cheese a starting 18 is frowned on, considering customizing your race origin doesn’t allow assigning a typical +2/+1 to the same stat. And, if you’re still just going to be playing a human, or Elf, or whatever… again, frowned on.
But you are technically correct (the best kind). :)
I wouldn't even start with the 18. Starting with the Crossbow expert and Dex 17 gives you the character-defining schtick from level 1. You get to do what your build is designed for right from the get-go. The extra +1 is an invisible and ultimately boring increase to what you do. But being able to rapid-fire the hand crossbow is what you're all about. (Oh, and statistically, a 2nd attack is also better for DPR than the +1)
As for the cheese remark -- well, I'm not convinced any of the "Race rework" stuff was particularly good from a game design perspective, but it's a legit option, so there we are. I remember when simply using Variant Human at all was considered cheese, so as always YMMV.
I think “landing sneak attacks” is the schtik here, not bonus action attacks, so there’s probably some math to do to figure out if hitting one or more times is more certain from +1 from better Dex, a +2 from a fighting style, or an additional attack. You may be right, but “hitting once” is the core goal, not making bonus action shots that miss.
I think “landing sneak attacks” is the schtik here, not bonus action attacks, so there’s probably some math to do to figure out if hitting one or more times is more certain from +1 from better Dex, a +2 from a fighting style, or an additional attack. You may be right, but “hitting once” is the core goal, not making bonus action shots that miss.
Hitting "at least once" is the goal. The +1 does make a difference between hitting and missing, that is true. But it only really affects your chances 5% of the time (those that would have missed by exactly 1).
Attacking twice gives you two chances to hit a creature. If either attack hits you get to add Sneak Attack damage. Since that's a completely separate attempt to hit, you're chances of hitting at least once per turn go up significantly.
For example, you're fighting a goblin with AC 15, and you have +3 from Dex, +2 Prof and +2 Archery for a +7 to hit. You need an 8 or better. If you had Dex 18, you need a 7. You rolled a 2 on a single attack and miss. That sucked and the +4 from an 18 Dex wouldn't have helped. If you had, instead, a second attack, you have a whole other chance to get a hit (60% chance, basically).
In probability terms, your chance to get at least one hit with two +7 attacks vs AC 15 is 84%. Compare that with a single +8 attack at 65% chance.
For… many? Some? Custom Lineage to cheese a starting 18 is frowned on, considering customizing your race origin doesn’t allow assigning a typical +2/+1 to the same stat. And, if you’re still just going to be playing a human, or Elf, or whatever… again, frowned on.
But you are technically correct (the best kind). :)
Um...the Changeling race allows you to put all 3 points into Cha. That's not cheese it's RAW. I see no difference between this and taking the Mountain Dwarf who is the ONLY race that gets two +2 stats and both of them are relevant to most builds.
If WotC didn't want folks to make changes to their races and classes, they should have left that out of Tasha's. If I were to enter a game advertised as 'RAW' and the DM didn't allow such changes I'd call them on it for sure.
Here's my understanding of how this would work on a ranged rogue build with a hand crossbow and Crossbow expert:
Because hand crossbow is one-handed, and I can ignore the loading quality of crossbows, when I use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, I could use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow I am holding. According to Jeremy Crawford in Sage Advice, "a character needs to have a hand crossbow in one hand and nothing in their off hand in order to make additional attacks through the bonus action attack afforded by Crossbow Expert."
Sounds like this means I can attack twice with a hand crossbow every turn. Ideally the first attack would be a sneak attack, but I could still fire again for regular attack with the bonus action. Is this correct?
J
Basically, yes, but either attack can be a sneak attack if it qualifies - and neither will qualify unless you take steps, as you won't be using your bonus action to Hide.
Relying on being hidden to get sneak attack is extraordinarily rare. By far the easiest and most common means of getting sneak attack is for your target to have an enemy other than you within five feet of it.
To OP: yes, your understanding is correct (and indeed, this is the intended use of the Crossbow Expert feat). quindraco's first point is also well made: if your first attack misses, the second one can still be a sneak attack, if the conditions are met (again, it's just worth pointing out that rogues are almost never using their bonus action to meet those conditions; they're relying on the rest of the party instead).
As an aside -- I used to think you could also use a 1-handed melee weapon and then fire the hand-crossbow. (One other benefit from Crossbow Expert, of firing in melee without disadvantage led me to think this was also an intended use), but the ruling about needing an empty hand (for ammunition) made that tactic pretty worthless.
Add to that, the idea that you can't pre-load a crossbow (according to some readings of the RAW -- which I think is a rather idiotic way to read the rules, but YMMV), and you can't even set this up in the round before (load hand crossbow with Use an Object action, move and draw rapier for free. Next round, attack with Rapier, fire crossbow)
So the only real RAW use is the one-hand rapid fire crossbow.. which is also the most powerful use of the feat. (Throw in Sharpshooter and 5 fighter levels for Extra Attack)
Thanks everyone for the feedback. Right now I only plan on taking one level of fighter for the +2 to atk, but I've heard of taking three levels for Precision Attack through Battle Master, or five levels for extra attack. I do plan on taking Sharpshooter later on as well.
My concern is that sneak attacked would be crippled as a result of possibly too many fighter levels. I'm also not sure when to take them. At level 2? Level 5? Thoughts on this?
Crossbow Expert for more instances of Sharpshooter +10 damage, and Crossbow Expert for more chances to land a big Sneak Attack, are both excellent uses for Crossbow Expert.
They also aren't usually both on the same character. Rogues in general don't multiclass particularly well, because every 1-2 levels you put elsewhere, you're getting 1d6 less Sneak Attack dice. Fighters that are being built to exploit Sharpshooter (or GWM) don't multiclass particularly well, because devoting levels to pick up a d6 of bonus damage here or there is usually less effective than reaching another tier of Extra Attack to made more weapon+Dex/Str+10 attacks. A rogue whose DPR is dependent on hitting with a sneak attack once EVERY round is doing very different math than a fighter whose DPR is dependent on landing as many +10 damage hits as possible over a three round combat, even if they occasionally miss all their attacks on any given round from -5 Sharpshooter penalties.
Zoomed out from level 20, there are some sweet spots where a Rogue X/Fighter 3 or Fighter 5 might make sense, or a Fighter X/Rogue Y might make sense... but level to level from level 1? A fighter will suffer from time spent chasing rogue levels, and a rogue will suffer from time spent chasing fighter levels, and both are perfectly capable of using Crossbow Expert to great effect within their own class. Only the Fighter will really care about Sharpshooter, though both will have room for it somewhere between level 8 and 12.
That's my two cents at least.
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I have a question regarding the Artificer Infusion Repeating Shot which reads: "
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
From what I've read regarding XBowXpert, this means that you DON'T need the other hand to be empty to reload the Hand XBow because the ammunition magically appears. This means that you could use your Attack Action to fire AND use the Bonus Action to fire once more, all while holding something in the other hand like a shield or another weapon.
Yup.
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That very much depends on what exactly you want out of the character.
If you're playing Sharpshooter focus, then most of your damage comes from Extra Attacks, since every successful hit gives +10 damage. So more fighter levels turns out to be a great idea. This is where you start to think "Can I get Fighter 11 in this build?" :)
If you're really wanting huge sneak attacks, then you have to ask "how much sneak attack am I willing to give up?". But don't forget that you do have to hit, and more attacks is usually more chances to hit. (That's why the bonus attack from Xbow Expert is great for Rogues, giving them a second chance to apply the SA if they miss the first).
I've played a F5/R2 (campaign ended too soon) Crossbow Expert and he was a blast. I originally planned to be just a Fighter, but adding rogue made more sense in the context of the game (it turned out the game was very skills-focused and less combat focused). And I'm glad I did. Even +1d6 SA on one of my 3 attacks is nice. And the skills were vital.
Xbow expert competes with Cunning Action for that Bonus Action, but I liked having the options. Most of the time I didn't need to move or hide, since I had melee allies who engaged the enemies and triggered SA just fine. Also, I took Battlemaster for the extra options. Hitting someone with menacing attack or tripping them so your melee ally gets advantage is great. Precision is useful, especially if you do go Sharpshooter. Note that many of the Battlemaster maneuvers are "when you hit", so they are great to use when you crit, since most of them let you roll more dice for damage.
My advice: If you want to do loads of damage, you can't go wrong with a mix of Fighter and Rogue. If you're SA focused, I'd say a decent dip is F2 for Action Surge, or F3 for the subclass (If allowed, Echo Knight is also a good subclass for rogues). If you want to concentrate on Sharpshooter for damage output, then Fighter 5 is good, but really, by this point you're probably level 10+, which many campaigns don't reach.
Another option to consider is Gloomstalker Ranger, instead of fighter. It also gets Archery, and the Dread Ambusher is very nice. Not to mention that you're invisible to creatures using darkvision to see you in the dark.
As for when you should take the levels : since I started Fighter, I wanted Extra Attack first, so my choice was easy. As a Rogue, you probably want your subclass because it might give you some character-defining ability. And then you might want the ASI for 4th, and then the temptation is to get Uncanny Dodge so you can reduce some damage. For me, I like to play with the character builder to see what the trade-offs are at each level. F1 for Archery is probably the best thing to do at the lower levels. It's a fantastic buff to your damage regardless of which class is your focus.
Thanks for all the constructive feedback, it's helping clarify what I want my rogue to do. I see him as primarily trying to get SA every turn. My thought with Sharpshooter was that I could snipe from up to 120' without a penalty, which I'd love asap. The -5+10 (power attack really) is a secondary benefit for me, being worth it at later levels.
I definitely want him primarily as a rogue, not a fighter. Right now I'm thinking I'll take fighter at character level 2. Nobody is competent at level 1 but the +2 and second wind will put me ahead of the curve early on. Then I may take a second fighter level after my ASI. It's either take the levels then or wait until after my second ASI. Action surge is fine, but I'd be using it once per encounter at most. I like the idea of precision attack to help get the SA in, but don't I get three maneuvers? Are there two other ones worth taking? Maybe ambush.
Part of my problem is I don't know if it's better to take an ASI or feat?
J
The range bonus from SS and the ability to ignore partial cover is also extremely useful, especially if you want to be shooting from further than 30 feet. As you point out : the usefulness of the -5/+10 is quite dependent on the average AC of your enemies, and whether you can reliably get Advantage. Going R1/F1 is good for that boost to your survivability and your +2 to hit. Waiting till after F1/R4 before going F2 is also a good break point. Action Surge will be good. I'd consider going F3 for Battlemaster right away. (You ought to be able to avoid melee, so Uncanny dodge can be delayed a level).
Yes you get several maneuvers. I'm not as familiar with the best maneuvers. I ran my PC a couple of years back before the new ones came out. I did enjoy Menacing Attack and Trip, because they were both useful most of the time (in the campaign I was in -- mostly humanoid enemies). Ambush is nice, but unless you're going Assassin, you might be better off spending superiority dice to make your attacks hit or hit harder. There are a lot of teamwork maneuvers, like Bait and Switch, Distracting Strike, Maneuvering Attack, etc. These can be great if you have a good team. Hopefully by the time you're 7th level you'll have a good idea what works
I’ll hazard you probably never have a single encounter where you need to take a shot from further than 60 feet, but that 30-60 sweet spot does come up, so sharpshooter to extend range for sneak attacks with a hand crossbow is a decent boon.
Id still take Dex to 20 first, though, And crossbow expert too, which means if you’re using point buy and starting at 17 dex you’re looking at a level 12 fighter, a level 12 rogue, or a fighter 8/rogue 4, or a fighter 6/rogue 8 before sharpshooter enters the conversation. It’s not a low-tier feat for a crossbow expert, though a bow-using archer can pick it up one feat earlier.
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With Custom Lineage, you can take Crossbow Expert at 1st level, still have a Dex 17, meaning you only need 2 ASIs to get to Dex 20 (or 1 and a half-ASI feat that gives you Dex, but there aren't any worth taking). By my reckoning that means you can be F6/R4 and get SS then. Of course, that means you aren't a Rogue primary any more, so that's not going to really fly with this build :)
That said, while I agree that Dex 20 is great, with the +2 from archery, you can be still be effective with only a 17. I'd consider whether the feat might be worth it earlier, depending on how often you're stuck at range, or shooting through cover. Ignoring a +5 AC bonus from 3/4 cover and getting to add SA at up to 120 feet might be worth more than the +1 or +2 if it happens often enough. (But generally, I agree, in the usual campaigns those circumstances don't happen too often).
Piercer is a decent option for a half feat for a Custom Lineage ranged attacker. Its not amazing but does the job of getting your DEX rounded up to a even number.
For… many? Some? Custom Lineage to cheese a starting 18 is frowned on, considering customizing your race origin doesn’t allow assigning a typical +2/+1 to the same stat. And, if you’re still just going to be playing a human, or Elf, or whatever… again, frowned on.
But you are technically correct (the best kind). :)
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I completely forgot about Piercer. Yes, that's a great feat for this build.
I wouldn't even start with the 18. Starting with the Crossbow expert and Dex 17 gives you the character-defining schtick from level 1. You get to do what your build is designed for right from the get-go. The extra +1 is an invisible and ultimately boring increase to what you do. But being able to rapid-fire the hand crossbow is what you're all about. (Oh, and statistically, a 2nd attack is also better for DPR than the +1)
As for the cheese remark -- well, I'm not convinced any of the "Race rework" stuff was particularly good from a game design perspective, but it's a legit option, so there we are. I remember when simply using Variant Human at all was considered cheese, so as always YMMV.
I think “landing sneak attacks” is the schtik here, not bonus action attacks, so there’s probably some math to do to figure out if hitting one or more times is more certain from +1 from better Dex, a +2 from a fighting style, or an additional attack. You may be right, but “hitting once” is the core goal, not making bonus action shots that miss.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Hitting "at least once" is the goal. The +1 does make a difference between hitting and missing, that is true. But it only really affects your chances 5% of the time (those that would have missed by exactly 1).
Attacking twice gives you two chances to hit a creature. If either attack hits you get to add Sneak Attack damage. Since that's a completely separate attempt to hit, you're chances of hitting at least once per turn go up significantly.
For example, you're fighting a goblin with AC 15, and you have +3 from Dex, +2 Prof and +2 Archery for a +7 to hit. You need an 8 or better. If you had Dex 18, you need a 7.
You rolled a 2 on a single attack and miss. That sucked and the +4 from an 18 Dex wouldn't have helped.
If you had, instead, a second attack, you have a whole other chance to get a hit (60% chance, basically).
In probability terms, your chance to get at least one hit with two +7 attacks vs AC 15 is 84%. Compare that with a single +8 attack at 65% chance.
Um...the Changeling race allows you to put all 3 points into Cha. That's not cheese it's RAW. I see no difference between this and taking the Mountain Dwarf who is the ONLY race that gets two +2 stats and both of them are relevant to most builds.
If WotC didn't want folks to make changes to their races and classes, they should have left that out of Tasha's. If I were to enter a game advertised as 'RAW' and the DM didn't allow such changes I'd call them on it for sure.
“Your Charisma score increases by 2. In addition, one other ability score of your choice increases by 1.”
No it doesn’t :)
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.