Fine, then keep your further implications consistent with rules. You don't die until you collect your third failure. If you rule that you don't continue collecting successes or failures (rather than simply ruling that the successes or failures need not be consecutive, which is within the text and intent of the rule) then please don't invent rules on what happens next.
I don't understand why, when you run into a problem trying to apply half a sentence as a rule, you'd insist on trying to take that to a place beyond its value and force yourself to invent new rules rather than just look at the other half of the sentence that tells you all that you need to know about what the intent and function of the rule is.
I opened my mind and imagination, and I saw the Mage hand spell can't attack nore carry so much weight, so I began to question myself about if this spell can allow the Push/Pull action. If this is correct and you are drowning.... why don't you cast this spell below yourself just to use the Hand to create waves which it could pull you up faster ( just to fan yourself up ) ??
Creative thought but no, it won't help you. A mage hand is just a spectral hand capable of carrying up to 10 lbs. 10 pounds is well below what an average human can carry so think of it more like the strength of a small child.
Now Imagine yourself in a pool of water flapping just one hand at the wrist, no arm or body movement. It won't help you in any meaningful way even though you are much stronger than a spectral hand.
Fine, then keep your further implications consistent with rules. You don't die until you collect your third failure. If you rule that you don't continue collecting successes or failures (rather than simply ruling that the successes or failures need not be consecutive, which is within the text and intent of the rule) then please don't invent rules on what happens next.
I don't understand why, when you run into a problem trying to apply half a sentence as a rule, you'd insist on trying to take that to a place beyond its value and force yourself to invent new rules rather than just look at the other half of the sentence that tells you all that you need to know about what the intent and function of the rule is.
You confuse rule with ruling which is what i discuss. The reality is that this situation isn't clearly covered by the rules or else we wouldn't be discussing it. So DM must adjucate one way or another. If you view that as inventing rule it's on you.
You have read a half a sentence and applied it in a way that requires you to make a ruling on what happens next. You wouldn't have to do that if, instead, you read the entire sentence and treated it as if the first part which you have ignored up to now was the rule and the second part was just an indication on how to accomplish that.
You finagled yourself into a corner with that bad interpretation so that you HAD to make a ruling. And the ruling that you did make (you die as soon as you collect 3 of either) is a bad ruling.
Whether you call it a rule or a ruling, it doesn't matter, because it doesn't reflect the intent or all of the text of the rules.
I opened my mind and imagination, and I saw the Mage hand spell can't attack nore carry so much weight, so I began to question myself about if this spell can allow the Push/Pull action. If this is correct and you are drowning.... why don't you cast this spell below yourself just to use the Hand to create waves which it could pull you up faster ( just to fan yourself up ) ??
Is this possible ???
While a creature weight much more than 10 lbs, it doesn't take a lot of strenght in water to push or drag the same weight for sure. There is a thing called ''under water weight'' which is the reduced apparent weight when submerged in water but it's calculation is probably more complex than what you'd expect in D&D. Kudos for the creativity though!
I opened my mind and imagination, and I saw the Mage hand spell can't attack nore carry so much weight, so I began to question myself about if this spell can allow the Push/Pull action. If this is correct and you are drowning.... why don't you cast this spell below yourself just to use the Hand to create waves which it could pull you up faster ( just to fan yourself up ) ??
Is this possible ???
You generally can't cast a spell with a V component while drowning, but it can be done, e.g. by a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell. Working out your density and trying to persuade your DM that if you're about the same density as water you should be able to use Mage Hand to push yourself upwards with 10 pounds of force is completely DM fiat territory. Making waves would just be extra steps, since the hand can grab your shirt, for example.
I opened my mind and imagination, and I saw the Mage hand spell can't attack nore carry so much weight, so I began to question myself about if this spell can allow the Push/Pull action. If this is correct and you are drowning.... why don't you cast this spell below yourself just to use the Hand to create waves which it could pull you up faster ( just to fan yourself up ) ??
Is this possible ???
Additionally, if you are to the point of making death saves, you are unconscious and so may find casting any spells difficult.
Apologies for necroing, but I've read this whole discussion and I think that you all got caught up in things OTHER than solving the problem. Funnily I came to this thread while homebrewing a Feat that in part makes drowning LESS of an issue. I personally agree with Plaguescarred on the principle that being allowed to roll death saves literally until the end of time(assuming you succeed every time) is illogical, but I don't entirely agree that you die regardless of which save you get three of first. This scenario isn't properly covered by the rules, neither RAW nor RAI, especially not in a concise manner, so this really is a matter of what the DM and party agree on. I have a few proposals, and it may be useful to mix and match ideas from multiple of these,
You simply die when you run out of HP and/or breath time underwater. 1.a. You could also do this closer to how Plaguescarred suggested.
On succeeding death throws, you are unconscious and have 4+your constitution modifier minutes before dying. This is based on a combination of drowning rules and how asphyxiation works in real life, along with the idea that a level 1 character is already slightly above human average. (IRL you have 4+ minutes without oxygen before brain damage/death).
On succeeding death throws, you may take 1 action or move your full swim speed in an attempt to get to safety, upon failure, you die. 3.a. You could also come back after succeeding death throws with your full breath time. I don't know how this is logical, but I know many people who would choose this, some of whose opinions I respect on matters like these.
The 2024 core rules revision now handle Suffocation differently. A creature running out of breath or choking gains 1 Exhaustion level at the end of each of its turns until it die or can breathe again to remove all levels of Exhaustion it gained from suffocating.
The 2024 core rules revision now handle Suffocation differently. A creature running out of breath or choking gains 1 Exhaustion level at the end of each of its turns until it die or can breathe again to remove all levels of Exhaustion it gained from suffocating.
Yep! 6 levels of Exhaustion makes you die. It also slows you down, so if the PC is trying to get to a safe harbor and runs out of air, each level of Exhaustion x 5 is the amount of movement that gets subtracted from your swim speed, which is already halved if you're not aquatic! Sheesh, I had to take a breath just writing that out!
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Fine, then keep your further implications consistent with rules. You don't die until you collect your third failure. If you rule that you don't continue collecting successes or failures (rather than simply ruling that the successes or failures need not be consecutive, which is within the text and intent of the rule) then please don't invent rules on what happens next.
I don't understand why, when you run into a problem trying to apply half a sentence as a rule, you'd insist on trying to take that to a place beyond its value and force yourself to invent new rules rather than just look at the other half of the sentence that tells you all that you need to know about what the intent and function of the rule is.
I opened my mind and imagination, and I saw the Mage hand spell can't attack nore carry so much weight, so I began to question myself about if this spell can allow the Push/Pull action. If this is correct and you are drowning.... why don't you cast this spell below yourself just to use the Hand to create waves which it could pull you up faster ( just to fan yourself up ) ??
Is this possible ???
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Creative thought but no, it won't help you. A mage hand is just a spectral hand capable of carrying up to 10 lbs. 10 pounds is well below what an average human can carry so think of it more like the strength of a small child.
Now Imagine yourself in a pool of water flapping just one hand at the wrist, no arm or body movement. It won't help you in any meaningful way even though you are much stronger than a spectral hand.
You confuse rule with ruling which is what i discuss. The reality is that this situation isn't clearly covered by the rules or else we wouldn't be discussing it. So DM must adjucate one way or another. If you view that as inventing rule it's on you.
You have read a half a sentence and applied it in a way that requires you to make a ruling on what happens next. You wouldn't have to do that if, instead, you read the entire sentence and treated it as if the first part which you have ignored up to now was the rule and the second part was just an indication on how to accomplish that.
You finagled yourself into a corner with that bad interpretation so that you HAD to make a ruling. And the ruling that you did make (you die as soon as you collect 3 of either) is a bad ruling.
Whether you call it a rule or a ruling, it doesn't matter, because it doesn't reflect the intent or all of the text of the rules.
While a creature weight much more than 10 lbs, it doesn't take a lot of strenght in water to push or drag the same weight for sure. There is a thing called ''under water weight'' which is the reduced apparent weight when submerged in water but it's calculation is probably more complex than what you'd expect in D&D. Kudos for the creativity though!
You generally can't cast a spell with a V component while drowning, but it can be done, e.g. by a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell. Working out your density and trying to persuade your DM that if you're about the same density as water you should be able to use Mage Hand to push yourself upwards with 10 pounds of force is completely DM fiat territory. Making waves would just be extra steps, since the hand can grab your shirt, for example.
Additionally, if you are to the point of making death saves, you are unconscious and so may find casting any spells difficult.
FYI A Dev came out saying you could cast spell under water https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/816440444162715648?lang=en
Apologies for necroing, but I've read this whole discussion and I think that you all got caught up in things OTHER than solving the problem. Funnily I came to this thread while homebrewing a Feat that in part makes drowning LESS of an issue.
I personally agree with Plaguescarred on the principle that being allowed to roll death saves literally until the end of time(assuming you succeed every time) is illogical, but I don't entirely agree that you die regardless of which save you get three of first.
This scenario isn't properly covered by the rules, neither RAW nor RAI, especially not in a concise manner, so this really is a matter of what the DM and party agree on.
I have a few proposals, and it may be useful to mix and match ideas from multiple of these,
1.a. You could also do this closer to how Plaguescarred suggested.
3.a. You could also come back after succeeding death throws with your full breath time. I don't know how this is logical, but I know many people who would choose this, some of whose opinions I respect on matters like these.
[REDACTED]
Edit: Grammar issues.
The 2024 core rules revision now handle Suffocation differently. A creature running out of breath or choking gains 1 Exhaustion level at the end of each of its turns until it die or can breathe again to remove all levels of Exhaustion it gained from suffocating.
Yep! 6 levels of Exhaustion makes you die. It also slows you down, so if the PC is trying to get to a safe harbor and runs out of air, each level of Exhaustion x 5 is the amount of movement that gets subtracted from your swim speed, which is already halved if you're not aquatic! Sheesh, I had to take a breath just writing that out!