Well they just released the first errata on Tasha’s.
didn’t fix the issue that was identified the day the UA was released. Priorities aren’t fixing their mechanical mistakes I suppose. There was definitely space and opportunity.
But there is no issue to clarify. It is quite evident what the obvious resolution of this issue is. To clarify that you do not lose the mage hand up to 60 if you have the Telekinetic feat, it is a waste of time. They won't be clearing up bullshit all the time. Players are supposed to be able to reason for themselves (At least a little bit).
Range. This is the limit of how far away the spell effect can go. But, once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise. Mage Hand is one of those exceptions. It is limited by its range even after being cast.
Except that Mage Hand doesn't use the spell's range as the limit in the description, it uses a fixed number.
Prior to TK you'd have been wrong. Distant Spell increases the spell's range. So... its effect... can go further.
There seems to be an attempt here to overcomplicate something very simple. If an ability increases a spell's range the range: is increased.
Except, again, the fact that the description of Mage Hand doesn't say that it uses the spell's range for its continual effect.
This is nonsensical. If a feat increases the range to 60ft, then the range is now 60ft.
Any other argument you have is wrong, because the feat increased the range to 60ft, so that's the range now.
As I've said before, I'm fine playing according to the intention showed in the Telekinetic Feat but I really think they should clean up the language.
It isn't just following intent, it is also following RAW. The feat increases the range, you've just read this feature incorrectly.
The fact they haven't bothered to errata it is pretty telling. The feat functions just fine RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but strictly speaking the functional range of the spell is still only 30 feet. Even if the range is extended, it vanishes if its ever more than 30 feet out from the spellcaster. It's a bad bit of future-proofing that really requires the spell, not the feat, to be the subject of errata.
The intent might be obvious, and I content that it is. In fact, that's how I've already implemented it at my table. But if we strictly follow the RAW, it doesn't.
Which is why the DMG, on page four, straight up tells the DM to ignore rules that they think are, for lack of a better word, unfun. This is one such interaction that requires judgement; not being Lawful Stupid.
This is nonsensical. If a feat increases the range to 60ft, then the range is now 60ft.
Any other argument you have is wrong, because the feat increased the range to 60ft, so that's the range now.
Of course the range is now 60ft, that's explicitly stated. The part that you keep ignoring is that the distance it vanishes at is neither tied to that range nor is that distance explicitly increased by the feat.
As I've said before, of course it should be allowed to work at the full 60ft as that obviously is the intent. But that intent doesn't change what the text actually says.
But there is no issue to clarify. It is quite evident what the obvious resolution of this issue is. To clarify that you do not lose the mage hand up to 60 if you have the Telekinetic feat, it is a waste of time. They won't be clearing up bullshit all the time. Players are supposed to be able to reason for themselves (At least a little bit).
Of course you should be able to use reason, but there is a difference between using reason and having to ignore the actual written descriptions.
And it isn't just bullshit as the question this leads to is if this is meant to be a general implication that "increasing the range of a spell also increases any non-range distances in the spell description" or is it just a poorly written line in the feat? The answer to that has clear impact on the Distant Spell meta magic feature.
This is nonsensical. If a feat increases the range to 60ft, then the range is now 60ft.
Any other argument you have is wrong, because the feat increased the range to 60ft, so that's the range now.
Of course the range is now 60ft, that's explicitly stated. The part that you keep ignoring is that the distance it vanishes at is neither tied to that range nor is that distance explicitly increased by the feat.
As I've said before, of course it should be allowed to work at the full 60ft as that obviously is the intent. But that intent doesn't change what the text actually says.
Absolutely.
WotC so routinely produce badly worded, ... crap that their "sage advice" has to begin with guidelines on how to envoke RAI. The RAW can be nonsensical and WotC needs to leave it to the reader to piece things together.
This is nonsensical. If a feat increases the range to 60ft, then the range is now 60ft.
Any other argument you have is wrong, because the feat increased the range to 60ft, so that's the range now.
Of course the range is now 60ft, that's explicitly stated. The part that you keep ignoring is that the distance it vanishes at is neither tied to that range nor is that distance explicitly increased by the feat.
As I've said before, of course it should be allowed to work at the full 60ft as that obviously is the intent. But that intent doesn't change what the text actually says.
I'm not "ignoring" it I'm just not artificially creating this restriction that you have invented. You're hung up on a restriction that you've made up yourself.
Ask: If the spell disappears at 30ft does it have a range of 60 ft or does it have a range of 30ft? The answer: 30ft.
But we know it has a range of 60ft. So everything that needs to change to allow for a range of 60ft is changed by the feat. Why? Because the feat says it gives it a range of 60ft.
Edit: If the intent is obvious then it is well written. The rulebook isn't written in C++ you're going to have to use some basic reasoning skills from time to time I'm afraid.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not "ignoring" it I'm just not artificially creating this restriction that you have invented. You're hung up on a restriction that you've made up yourself.
Ask: If the spell disappears at 30ft does it have a range of 60 ft or does it have a range of 30ft? The answer: 30ft.
But we know it has a range of 60ft. So everything that needs to change to allow for a range of 60ft is changed by the feat. Why? Because the feat says it gives it a range of 60ft.
A spells range is the spells range, that isn't affected by any restriction in a spells description.
And I haven't made anything up, "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you" is right there in the spell description and nothing anywhere says that is changed, that's the whole problem.
I'm not "ignoring" it I'm just not artificially creating this restriction that you have invented. You're hung up on a restriction that you've made up yourself.
Ask: If the spell disappears at 30ft does it have a range of 60 ft or does it have a range of 30ft? The answer: 30ft.
But we know it has a range of 60ft. So everything that needs to change to allow for a range of 60ft is changed by the feat. Why? Because the feat says it gives it a range of 60ft.
A spells range is the spells range, that isn't affected by any restriction in a spells description.
And I haven't made anything up, "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you" is right there in the spell description and nothing anywhere says that is changed, that's the whole problem.
If the hand vanished at 30ft then the range is not 60ft. The range is 60ft because the feat changes the spell. Specific>general.
Generally, the hand would vanish as 30ft. but because of the feat giving it a range of 60ft the hand doesn't disappear at 30ft. because it has a range of 60ft omg.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The restriction is the content of Rules As Written. Even if you study them in context, if you study them without regard to the designers’ intent (as per sage advice), they still state that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..."
The restriction is the content of Rules As Written. Even if you study them in context, if you study them without regard to the designers’ intent (as per sage advice), they still state that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..."
The simple remedy is an evocation of RAI.
That is exactly the part of the spell that the feat... changes.
You guys keep quoting the part of the spell that is getting modified by the feat as if it still matters after being superseded by the feat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It might be a simple fix, but the wording does need to be fixed. As Thez pointed out, there are quite a few limit’s and restrictions placed upon distant metamagic and spellsniper that have been clarified using the exact same responses we are being up regarding range being a specified distance and other distances in a spell description not being range automatically.
the feat or the cantrip needs to be erratad. No one here has an issue playing the game any way they want to. The issue is the quality of the product not being satisfactory. All they had to do was change a few words before print. There are people designing content for this game who frankly don’t know how to play it.
there’s a difference between storytelling and capturing mechanically what is being told or sought after. Idk how many people looked at this feature during or since it’s creation, but all of them screwed up. Even Crawford if he somehow is still the lead rules designer yet doesn’t read the rules during creation.
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
I put something big, bold, and in blue for you. This should help clear up what is going on with mage hand for you. The listed range at which it disappears is a function of its range, and is exactly what that big, bold, blue "range" rule is telling us might happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
I put something big, bold, and in blue for you. This should help clear up what is going on with mage hand for you. The listed range at which it disappears is a function of its range, and is exactly what that big, bold, blue "range" rule is telling us might happen.
You can change text all you want.
magehand has a specific limitation independent of its range.
the feat dedicated to making it better doesn’t work as written.
it’s trash editing. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules by the creator, and an utter lack of attention to detail by the entire editorial crew. However many people that may be.
The restriction is the content of Rules As Written. Even if you study them in context, if you study them without regard to the designers’ intent (as per sage advice), they still state that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..."
The simple remedy is an evocation of RAI.
That is exactly the part of the spell that the feat... changes.
You guys keep quoting the part of the spell that is getting modified by the feat as if it still matters after being superseded by the feat.
RAW the feat changes the range so as to facilitate a malfunctioning spell. "The spell's description says" that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..." and interpretations of RAW DO NOT change what is written.
RAI says the spell isn't intended to malfunction so let's change what's written changing the text "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..." so as to read "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 60 feet away from you..."
TELEKINETIC You learn to move things with your mind, granting you the following benefits: • Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• You learn the magehand cantrip . You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range AND THE DISTANCE IT VANISHES increase by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
• As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 +your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
To be a grammar pedant, "and the distance at which it vanishes" is better. The spell does not "vanish distance" as a verb, and so "and the distance is vanishes" isn't as clear.
Honestly, I'd be fine with your version, but this thread has taught me that some people can be very picky and averse to personal interpretation and harsh in the judgement that follows :D
Mage Hand vanishing distance has no association with range specifically, only a limit similar to it. If a spell's effect is limited by it's range, it will specifically say so, like Witch Bolt for exemples. Other spells don't specifically say so and have no similitude in distance with it like Faithful Hound for exemple.
So unless a spell's effect says it's limited by it's range, it's not, though it could be limited by a similar distance. If a feat modify the range of such spell, only the range is modified, not limit of similar distance that are not specifically their range.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Well they just released the first errata on Tasha’s.
didn’t fix the issue that was identified the day the UA was released. Priorities aren’t fixing their mechanical mistakes I suppose. There was definitely space and opportunity.
https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/TCE-Errata.pdf
But there is no issue to clarify. It is quite evident what the obvious resolution of this issue is. To clarify that you do not lose the mage hand up to 60 if you have the Telekinetic feat, it is a waste of time. They won't be clearing up bullshit all the time. Players are supposed to be able to reason for themselves (At least a little bit).
This is nonsensical. If a feat increases the range to 60ft, then the range is now 60ft.
Any other argument you have is wrong, because the feat increased the range to 60ft, so that's the range now.
It isn't just following intent, it is also following RAW. The feat increases the range, you've just read this feature incorrectly.
The fact they haven't bothered to errata it is pretty telling. The feat functions just fine RAW.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yep, the RAI is incredibly obvious.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but strictly speaking the functional range of the spell is still only 30 feet. Even if the range is extended, it vanishes if its ever more than 30 feet out from the spellcaster. It's a bad bit of future-proofing that really requires the spell, not the feat, to be the subject of errata.
The intent might be obvious, and I content that it is. In fact, that's how I've already implemented it at my table. But if we strictly follow the RAW, it doesn't.
Which is why the DMG, on page four, straight up tells the DM to ignore rules that they think are, for lack of a better word, unfun. This is one such interaction that requires judgement; not being Lawful Stupid.
Of course the range is now 60ft, that's explicitly stated. The part that you keep ignoring is that the distance it vanishes at is neither tied to that range nor is that distance explicitly increased by the feat.
As I've said before, of course it should be allowed to work at the full 60ft as that obviously is the intent. But that intent doesn't change what the text actually says.
Of course you should be able to use reason, but there is a difference between using reason and having to ignore the actual written descriptions.
And it isn't just bullshit as the question this leads to is if this is meant to be a general implication that "increasing the range of a spell also increases any non-range distances in the spell description" or is it just a poorly written line in the feat? The answer to that has clear impact on the Distant Spell meta magic feature.
Absolutely.
WotC so routinely produce badly worded, ... crap that their "sage advice" has to begin with guidelines on how to envoke RAI. The RAW can be nonsensical and WotC needs to leave it to the reader to piece things together.
I'm not "ignoring" it I'm just not artificially creating this restriction that you have invented. You're hung up on a restriction that you've made up yourself.
Ask: If the spell disappears at 30ft does it have a range of 60 ft or does it have a range of 30ft? The answer: 30ft.
But we know it has a range of 60ft. So everything that needs to change to allow for a range of 60ft is changed by the feat. Why? Because the feat says it gives it a range of 60ft.
Edit: If the intent is obvious then it is well written. The rulebook isn't written in C++ you're going to have to use some basic reasoning skills from time to time I'm afraid.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spells range is the spells range, that isn't affected by any restriction in a spells description.
And I haven't made anything up, "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you" is right there in the spell description and nothing anywhere says that is changed, that's the whole problem.
If the hand vanished at 30ft then the range is not 60ft. The range is 60ft because the feat changes the spell. Specific>general.
Generally, the hand would vanish as 30ft. but because of the feat giving it a range of 60ft the hand doesn't disappear at 30ft. because it has a range of 60ft omg.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The restriction is the content of Rules As Written. Even if you study them in context, if you study them without regard to the designers’ intent (as per sage advice), they still state that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..."
The simple remedy is an evocation of RAI.
That is exactly the part of the spell that the feat... changes.
You guys keep quoting the part of the spell that is getting modified by the feat as if it still matters after being superseded by the feat.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It might be a simple fix, but the wording does need to be fixed. As Thez pointed out, there are quite a few limit’s and restrictions placed upon distant metamagic and spellsniper that have been clarified using the exact same responses we are being up regarding range being a specified distance and other distances in a spell description not being range automatically.
the feat or the cantrip needs to be erratad. No one here has an issue playing the game any way they want to. The issue is the quality of the product not being satisfactory. All they had to do was change a few words before print. There are people designing content for this game who frankly don’t know how to play it.
there’s a difference between storytelling and capturing mechanically what is being told or sought after. Idk how many people looked at this feature during or since it’s creation, but all of them screwed up. Even Crawford if he somehow is still the lead rules designer yet doesn’t read the rules during creation.
Please. Just reread the PHB rules on Range.
Here, lemme quote it for you:
Range
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter).
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
I put something big, bold, and in blue for you. This should help clear up what is going on with mage hand for you. The listed range at which it disappears is a function of its range, and is exactly what that big, bold, blue "range" rule is telling us might happen.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You can change text all you want.
magehand has a specific limitation independent of its range.
the feat dedicated to making it better doesn’t work as written.
it’s trash editing. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules by the creator, and an utter lack of attention to detail by the entire editorial crew. However many people that may be.
RAW the feat changes the range so as to facilitate a malfunctioning spell. "The spell's description says" that "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..." and interpretations of RAW DO NOT change what is written.
RAI says the spell isn't intended to malfunction so let's change what's written changing the text "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you..." so as to read "The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 60 feet away from you..."
TELEKINETIC
You learn to move things with your mind, granting you the following benefits:
• Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• You learn the magehand cantrip . You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range AND THE DISTANCE IT VANISHES increase by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
• As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 +your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
To be a grammar pedant, "and the distance at which it vanishes" is better. The spell does not "vanish distance" as a verb, and so "and the distance is vanishes" isn't as clear.
Honestly, I'd be fine with your version, but this thread has taught me that some people can be very picky and averse to personal interpretation and harsh in the judgement that follows :D
So unless a spell's effect says it's limited by it's range, it's not, though it could be limited by a similar distance. If a feat modify the range of such spell, only the range is modified, not limit of similar distance that are not specifically their range.