"As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey."
This isn't a binary either/or command. You could do both of these things. You could hypothetically remain alert and also perform another helpful task. You seem to be reading into it otherwise and I'm not sure why.
Rather than reading into it, I am reading a few paragraphs ahead, looking at the context the quoted text is written in. It is explicitly stated that they can't do both at once:
As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
...
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
"As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey."
This isn't a binary either/or command. You could do both of these things. You could hypothetically remain alert and also perform another helpful task. You seem to be reading into it otherwise and I'm not sure why.
Rather than reading into it, I am reading a few paragraphs ahead, looking at the context the quoted text is written in. It is explicitly stated that they can't do both at once:
As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
...
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
Can't use passive perception and also concentrate on pass without trace. Hot take.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
"As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey."
This isn't a binary either/or command. You could do both of these things. You could hypothetically remain alert and also perform another helpful task. You seem to be reading into it otherwise and I'm not sure why.
Rather than reading into it, I am reading a few paragraphs ahead, looking at the context the quoted text is written in. It is explicitly stated that they can't do both at once:
As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
...
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
Can't use passive perception and also concentrate on pass without trace. Hot take.
I don't believe that maintaining concentration on a spell counts as focusing on a task in this context, but it of course depends on your DM. Or you could take it up with the rules designers. I provided you with a direct quote from RAW, so it'd be the designers' 'hot take'.
Perhaps this comes down to personal experience and playstyle, but I believe you're always 'Adventuring' and 'traveling' in D&D (Pillar 1: Exploration), while you're not socially interacting with the world (Pillar 2: Social Interaction) or fighting something (Pillar 3: Combat).The only exception would be during downtime-activities which are not meant to be played through. Traveling through a dangerous dungeon such as Moria is indeed traveling through a very dangerous place. Why the party was there doesn't matter, unless you play a game where you know nothing happens while 'traveling' (as you know, many tables like to focus on dungeon crawling and don't care what happens in between). Again, I suspect our difference in interpretation of the rules might come down to our application of them due to our individual experiences and playstyle. If you're arguing that the RAW contained in the Activity While Traveling subsection is irrelevant to what the chapter is about as a whole, but specific to "travel[ing] through a dungeon or the wilderness", when do you apply the rules in the Special Types of Movement subsection above it, where the rules for jumping is contained? This subsection, much as the Activity While Traveling subsection, refers specifically to "Movement through dangerous dungeons or wilderness". Would you not apply these rules to urban settings?
Side question: Where do you get the term "strategic travel" from? Is it a carryover from earlier editions?
If you are always 'Travelling' then wouldn't the word 'Travelling' be redundant? And why would this rule be here rather than in the earlier Passives section, if it always applies?
I get the term 'strategic travel' from simple knowledge of the English language. One does not normally say 'I'm travelling to the chemists on the corner.' That is simply not something said. One says 'I'm travelling to Timbuktu this summer' or 'I travel to and from work every morning' (but only if there is a meaningful length commute).
One might say 'We are all travellers on the voyage that is life,' but that is an entirely different context that does not apply here and is far more often used as a deflection than as a normal use of the term.
I am not arguing that the 'Activities while Travelling' is irrelevant to the chapter as a whole. I am merely saying that it is a subsection thereof. You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that it is the entirety of the chapter, applying in all cases, rather than merely those aspects of adventuring to which it applies. Going back to Lord of the Rings as an example, the old joke (and lament) is that the vast majority of the trilogy consists of characters trudging through wilderness, with said trudging described in detail. Travel is a common part of adventuring. It is not, however, the sum total of adventuring. Nor is it the default when not talking or fighting.
Personally I believe that 'traveling' is the essence of being an 'adventurer', and I believe the word is deliberately used to keep the atmospheric context of D&D prevalent throughout the rules. I believe they could easily have replaced 'traveling' with the word "moving" without changing the rules at all and it'd still align with the RAI. I believe the rules we're discussing does apply to all A-B movement. However I take your point about the wording. If the setting is a large open landscape we call it travel. If we're moving through the narrow corridors of a dungeon, the game also calls it travel, but I'd argue that the word "movement" would be much better suited. By the same token, I believe that these rules also would apply in an urban setting, even though we both agree the word "moving" would be more appropriate. At its essence, you're still moving from A to B, and nothing but the scale has changed. I think it is important to note that this rule is written in a section that refers to actions while on the move in places that are dangerous, and while it mentions the wilderness or dungeons as examples, it could just as well have been an urban setting. I also believe the reason it is here and not in the passives section is because it is used as a practical example in a context much broader than passives. Just like how the jumping rules are not found in the Combat chapter.
I completely understand your points, I just don't see it the same way. The life on an adventurer in D&D is made up of Exploration, Social Interaction, and Combat (and down-time). To me, travel and exploration is largely the same and "Exploration includes both the adventurers’ movement through the world and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention". It doesn't matter that you're staying a week at an inn while you're traveling, it is still part of your travels. In LotR, every part of the movies/books are part of the hobbits' travels from the moment they left the Shire.
If we can do nothing and use passive perception to contest stealth, how is it possible that an active search can roll lower?
You could always do like Jeremy Crawford said on a Dragon Talk podcast and have Passive Perception be the lowest possible value that you can get when rolling it.
"As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey."
This isn't a binary either/or command. You could do both of these things. You could hypothetically remain alert and also perform another helpful task. You seem to be reading into it otherwise and I'm not sure why.
Rather than reading into it, I am reading a few paragraphs ahead, looking at the context the quoted text is written in. It is explicitly stated that they can't do both at once:
As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
...
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
Can't use passive perception and also concentrate on pass without trace. Hot take.
I don't believe that maintaining concentration on a spell counts as focusing on a task in this context, but it of course depends on your DM. Or you could take it up with the rules designers. I provided you with a direct quote from RAW, so it'd be the designers' 'hot take'.
Just to back this up :)
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration: • Casting another spell that requires concentration . • Taking damage . • Being incapacitated or killed.
The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you're on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."
Normal activity (which presumably includes paying close attention to your surroundings) has no effect on Concentration. There are only three things that will prevent Concentration and using skills is NOT one of them. :)
Concentration is just the name for the mechanic and doesn't have any implication that the character is actually concentrating on anything that would require any fraction of their attention since they can take any normal activities (some of which will require intense concentration [like solving a puzzle etc]) without breaking Concentration on a spell.
When starting a campaign recently the PC's and I had discussion about passive perception and ability checks. The Cleric has a passive perception of 17 so the person playing the character intimated that he could help the rogue find hidden doors and traps. The rogue has a passive perception of 16. I said that it would depend on the situation and the type of trap. I described it to them this way. If you come into a room and do not suspect there is a hidden door (DC15) your passive perception might let you feel that something about the room is not quite right but you cannot just at first glance tell what is not quite right about the room. If you decide to try and find out what isn't right about the room you would have to actively search for what isn't right. After all the door is hidden. Your passive perception might tell you to search a certain part of the room but until you search you, you won't know there is a hidden door or exactly where to find it.
Perception: You walk into a room, what does everyone notice. The walls, the floor, the ceiling, the furniture, light sources, any artwork, if anyone is in the room. The higher your passive perception, the more you notice about the room, the color of the walls, the material of the room, the books on the shelves, the quality of the artwork, the quality of the furniture, the color of the ceilings, the knickknacks on the shelves, etc. The higher your perception the more details you notice and possibly what is out of the ordinary. The thing people fail to think about perception is this, you hear everything, you see everything but you do not notice everything. Your brain tells you what is important about what you see and hear. The higher your passive perception the more your brain tells you what is important. But part of it telling you is important is based on what is relevant to your character.
So I can tell the cleric that the room seems somewhat off because he sees something that he registers as out of place but because he is a cleric and does not have a criminal background he cannot say exactly what is off until he searches more. I can tell the thief he notices slight scratches along the west wall in the middle of the room, but there does not seem to be any furniture that is near them. They would still both need to search at that point for more information as to what is there but the thief would even with a lower passive perception be more aware of what exactly is out of place. Passive perception is not a "get out of jail free" card. Now both characters passive perception alerted them to a possibility of what they have to search for.
Take it a step further, the door is locked and has a trap. Should both the cleric and the rogue be able to use their passive perception to tell the door is trapped and locked. Of course not. Even if both their passive perceptions are higher than the DC of the lock. The DMG clearly states, "Usually, some element of a trap is visible to careful inspection." Note it says careful inspection. The perception that something isn't right is not the same as the sure knowledge of what isn't right.
The same thing with noticing if someone is hidden. Some characters are more likely to always be aware of potential trouble, i.e., they have the Observant feat or a background (Criminal, Solider, City Watch etc. that might allow them to use passive perception to pick out threats better or be paranoid. It really depends on the situation whether the passive check let's them know something isn't quite right about the scene or even that it might be an ambush. Each situation has to be something that the DM can say this would be appropriate for the character to be able to use passive perception to notice the difference or thing that makes him feel or see this is out of the ordinary or just not quite right.
But that's how I use passive perception.
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Rather than reading into it, I am reading a few paragraphs ahead, looking at the context the quoted text is written in. It is explicitly stated that they can't do both at once:
Can't use passive perception and also concentrate on pass without trace. Hot take.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I don't believe that maintaining concentration on a spell counts as focusing on a task in this context, but it of course depends on your DM. Or you could take it up with the rules designers. I provided you with a direct quote from RAW, so it'd be the designers' 'hot take'.
Personally I believe that 'traveling' is the essence of being an 'adventurer', and I believe the word is deliberately used to keep the atmospheric context of D&D prevalent throughout the rules. I believe they could easily have replaced 'traveling' with the word "moving" without changing the rules at all and it'd still align with the RAI. I believe the rules we're discussing does apply to all A-B movement. However I take your point about the wording. If the setting is a large open landscape we call it travel. If we're moving through the narrow corridors of a dungeon, the game also calls it travel, but I'd argue that the word "movement" would be much better suited. By the same token, I believe that these rules also would apply in an urban setting, even though we both agree the word "moving" would be more appropriate. At its essence, you're still moving from A to B, and nothing but the scale has changed. I think it is important to note that this rule is written in a section that refers to actions while on the move in places that are dangerous, and while it mentions the wilderness or dungeons as examples, it could just as well have been an urban setting. I also believe the reason it is here and not in the passives section is because it is used as a practical example in a context much broader than passives. Just like how the jumping rules are not found in the Combat chapter.
I completely understand your points, I just don't see it the same way. The life on an adventurer in D&D is made up of Exploration, Social Interaction, and Combat (and down-time). To me, travel and exploration is largely the same and "Exploration includes both the adventurers’ movement through the world and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention". It doesn't matter that you're staying a week at an inn while you're traveling, it is still part of your travels. In LotR, every part of the movies/books are part of the hobbits' travels from the moment they left the Shire.
You could always do like Jeremy Crawford said on a Dragon Talk podcast and have Passive Perception be the lowest possible value that you can get when rolling it.
Just to back this up :)
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
• Casting another spell that requires concentration .
• Taking damage .
• Being incapacitated or killed.
The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you're on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."
Normal activity (which presumably includes paying close attention to your surroundings) has no effect on Concentration. There are only three things that will prevent Concentration and using skills is NOT one of them. :)
Concentration is just the name for the mechanic and doesn't have any implication that the character is actually concentrating on anything that would require any fraction of their attention since they can take any normal activities (some of which will require intense concentration [like solving a puzzle etc]) without breaking Concentration on a spell.
When starting a campaign recently the PC's and I had discussion about passive perception and ability checks. The Cleric has a passive perception of 17 so the person playing the character intimated that he could help the rogue find hidden doors and traps. The rogue has a passive perception of 16. I said that it would depend on the situation and the type of trap. I described it to them this way. If you come into a room and do not suspect there is a hidden door (DC15) your passive perception might let you feel that something about the room is not quite right but you cannot just at first glance tell what is not quite right about the room. If you decide to try and find out what isn't right about the room you would have to actively search for what isn't right. After all the door is hidden. Your passive perception might tell you to search a certain part of the room but until you search you, you won't know there is a hidden door or exactly where to find it.
Perception: You walk into a room, what does everyone notice. The walls, the floor, the ceiling, the furniture, light sources, any artwork, if anyone is in the room. The higher your passive perception, the more you notice about the room, the color of the walls, the material of the room, the books on the shelves, the quality of the artwork, the quality of the furniture, the color of the ceilings, the knickknacks on the shelves, etc. The higher your perception the more details you notice and possibly what is out of the ordinary. The thing people fail to think about perception is this, you hear everything, you see everything but you do not notice everything. Your brain tells you what is important about what you see and hear. The higher your passive perception the more your brain tells you what is important. But part of it telling you is important is based on what is relevant to your character.
So I can tell the cleric that the room seems somewhat off because he sees something that he registers as out of place but because he is a cleric and does not have a criminal background he cannot say exactly what is off until he searches more. I can tell the thief he notices slight scratches along the west wall in the middle of the room, but there does not seem to be any furniture that is near them. They would still both need to search at that point for more information as to what is there but the thief would even with a lower passive perception be more aware of what exactly is out of place. Passive perception is not a "get out of jail free" card. Now both characters passive perception alerted them to a possibility of what they have to search for.
Take it a step further, the door is locked and has a trap. Should both the cleric and the rogue be able to use their passive perception to tell the door is trapped and locked. Of course not. Even if both their passive perceptions are higher than the DC of the lock. The DMG clearly states, "Usually, some element of a trap is visible to careful inspection." Note it says careful inspection. The perception that something isn't right is not the same as the sure knowledge of what isn't right.
The same thing with noticing if someone is hidden. Some characters are more likely to always be aware of potential trouble, i.e., they have the Observant feat or a background (Criminal, Solider, City Watch etc. that might allow them to use passive perception to pick out threats better or be paranoid. It really depends on the situation whether the passive check let's them know something isn't quite right about the scene or even that it might be an ambush. Each situation has to be something that the DM can say this would be appropriate for the character to be able to use passive perception to notice the difference or thing that makes him feel or see this is out of the ordinary or just not quite right.
But that's how I use passive perception.