I’m on break for a week but in the middle of combat with 4 foes that are under the water of a flooded room while i’m on a platform above. Are there rules somewhere for what would happen if I cast a lightning based spell (witch bolt) onto the water in the middle of room?
There are not, as far as I know. Rules for underwater combat are in chapter 9 of the PHB, and only discuss weapons and fire effects. Lots of DMs house rule things, though, so probably best to double check. And remember that whatever you do to the bad guys will probably be used against your PCs in the future :)
I’m sure it will, but first I have to get to the future 😁. Right now it’s a Drow monk, a halfling thief and my air genasi ranger/sorceror against 2 seaweed monsters and 2 something else’s that have so far manifested a spectral spear. The other 4 members of the party went a different way so I have to play tank and heavy hitter. The more damage I can do before we get pulled underwater the better.
You could try asking if your character might know whether lightning does extra damage to underwater creatures, so then they could have you roll a Nature check or something. But if the seaweed monsters turn out to be a sea-based variety of shambling mound, then any house rules that cause extra lightning damage when underwater will not work in your favor!
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I know what would happen in real life and sort of remember the 3.5 rules but couldn’t find anything in 5e and was hoping I’d missed something somewhere.
I'm certain a physics-minded person will explain how, if you were to follow realistic laws of physics, it would actually be less effective than normal, not more. But I'm not that person. I just remember seeing similar stuff elsewhere.
There's an old 3.5 spell that superheats water, causing everything in the water to take damage. That's how I would be inclined to do it.
Adjudicating AoE effects in 3D space is a nightmare anyway.
How 'bout: Creatures in the body of water and within 20 ft. of the lightning must make a CON save, or take half of the lightning bolt's damage. That's how I'd rule it anyways. Water doesn't enhance electricity in real life, but it can carry the current a short distance. The current traveling 20 ft. is a little unrealistic, but this ruling is supposed to mimic how we often think that electricity works.
Not only are there no rules for it, we don't generally have rules for salt water vs fresh, which irl would have a significant impact on a situation like this.
Remember, the spell *has* to work by magically establishing a bolt from the caster to the target. It's sheer conjecture (DM fiat) if and then how this magic would be impacted by water vs air. I can invent explanations under which the water doesn't matter and ones where it matters more than anything else. RAW, Witch Bolt works the same in air, fresh water, salt water, lava, pudding, creamed corn, hard vacuum, and pure methane.
I wouldn't have the spell act any differently underwater because there is way, way too much room for physics-based shenanigans if you start changing how lightning works when it interacts with water.
Basically it acts like an electric fireball centered on the point where it hits the water, I’m hoping I can talk the DM into having that be what happens.
I was actually thinking you said Lightning Bolt. (I don't know, I guess I can't read.) With Witch Bolt I'd be less willing to turn it into an AoE. You're welcome to try though.
Depending on the situation, it's possible you can't see the underwater creatures. There's no written rule for how deep they'd need to be, or what effect various brightnesses of light would have, but that's to leave the doors open for whatever. I've run fights in the dark where the lanterns and stuff carried by the party aren't enough to illuminate more than a few feet down. It changes the power level of the enemy quite a bit. You see a lot of readied actions. Anyway, my point is, if you can't see him, you can't target him with Witch Bolt, so that may throw a wrench into things.
It may because it’s swirling water from a waterfall and a raked open door. The water is only 8 feet deep max but only the rogue has actually seen the creatures. I expect to be at disadvantage but am hoping to get some sort of area of effect out of it. On the other hand I may just grab both and run up the stairs behind us towards the rest of the party and see if we can find a different way past them at full strength.
Witch Bolt only targets creatures. Attempting to target something other than a creature causes the spell to fail.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That is fine what happens when the creature you are targeting is below the surface of the water? If you go by physics you should actually get advantage on your to hit roll since the charge spreads out evenly in all directions weakening as it spreads out. Now physics based this weakening is an inverse square law effect so at 20’ r the effect is 1/4 what it would be at 10’r. In game terms this would be that everything in a 10’r of the point where it hits the water makes a con save (lightning is too fast to dodge but you may have the con to withstand the shock) those that fail takes full damage, everything from 10’ to 20 ‘ takes 1/2 damage and everything from 20’ to 30’ feels a tingle but takes no damage unless they crit fail a con save. Making their save halves the damage they take. As long as the targeted foe is within 20’ of the entry point they would be hit so the spell works. As written the spell potentially fails as the water acts like a wall blocking the electric current from reaching the target. That is fine for insulators like stone and wood walls and even clear glass windows since they ARE insulators. Water is a conductor and shouldn’t stop the flow of current. In older versions lightning/electricity based attacks actually did stuff like I proposed. In 2 e and I think 3e there were rules for electricity and water. It wasn’t the witch bolt spell (which didn’t exist) but lightning bolts acted according to physics - and they didn’t have to start at you making you the center of the ball lightning. You actually could have the bolt start where you wanted in a range and go the way you wanted from there making it much more useful.
I’m on break for a week but in the middle of combat with 4 foes that are under the water of a flooded room while i’m on a platform above. Are there rules somewhere for what would happen if I cast a lightning based spell (witch bolt) onto the water in the middle of room?
The giant lightning eel has an ability you might be able to adapt. It basically has an 11th-level shocking grasp on land, but in water it affects everything within 15 feet with that same 3d8 damage rather than only one creature it touches
witch bolt would be tricky, though, because of the ongoing effect
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would be careful about springing any surprises on players, like "you cast the lightning bolt and instead of a line from you it erupts in a sphere around you make a DEX save..."
I think part of a character's training in using a spell would be knowing how it reacts in different circumstances. If there are any unusual effects for a spell in a certain environment, at least have the player make an arcana check to find that out before casting the spell.
Sorry to make it clear - in this case I’m the player trying to figure out what my character would know about how his spells work, not the DM deciding the action, that is why I was asking if there were rules I was missing somewhere.
Sorry to make it clear - in this case I’m the player trying to figure out what my character would know about how his spells work, not the DM deciding the action, that is why I was asking if there were rules I was missing somewhere.
The spell only targets creatures. If you're trying to go off script then the answer is: Whatever your DM on the spot homebrews for you.
Edit: To everyone here trying to model how to homebrew this based on how electricity would function IRL in water. Please don't. The man is shooting magical lighting out of his hands. Nothing about this applies to how electricity IRL works. If this was real life casting the spell itself would probably also kill the caster. At the very least it'd render his hands unusable as they're fried into burnt husks in the discharge.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I’m on break for a week but in the middle of combat with 4 foes that are under the water of a flooded room while i’m on a platform above. Are there rules somewhere for what would happen if I cast a lightning based spell (witch bolt) onto the water in the middle of room?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There are not, as far as I know. Rules for underwater combat are in chapter 9 of the PHB, and only discuss weapons and fire effects. Lots of DMs house rule things, though, so probably best to double check. And remember that whatever you do to the bad guys will probably be used against your PCs in the future :)
I’m sure it will, but first I have to get to the future 😁. Right now it’s a Drow monk, a halfling thief and my air genasi ranger/sorceror against 2 seaweed monsters and 2 something else’s that have so far manifested a spectral spear. The other 4 members of the party went a different way so I have to play tank and heavy hitter. The more damage I can do before we get pulled underwater the better.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There aren't rules for it, but I would consider disadvantage on saves vs lightning, and for that matter, advantage on saves vs fire.
You could try asking if your character might know whether lightning does extra damage to underwater creatures, so then they could have you roll a Nature check or something. But if the seaweed monsters turn out to be a sea-based variety of shambling mound, then any house rules that cause extra lightning damage when underwater will not work in your favor!
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I know what would happen in real life and sort of remember the 3.5 rules but couldn’t find anything in 5e and was hoping I’d missed something somewhere.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm certain a physics-minded person will explain how, if you were to follow realistic laws of physics, it would actually be less effective than normal, not more. But I'm not that person. I just remember seeing similar stuff elsewhere.
There's an old 3.5 spell that superheats water, causing everything in the water to take damage. That's how I would be inclined to do it.
Adjudicating AoE effects in 3D space is a nightmare anyway.
How 'bout: Creatures in the body of water and within 20 ft. of the lightning must make a CON save, or take half of the lightning bolt's damage. That's how I'd rule it anyways. Water doesn't enhance electricity in real life, but it can carry the current a short distance. The current traveling 20 ft. is a little unrealistic, but this ruling is supposed to mimic how we often think that electricity works.
Not only are there no rules for it, we don't generally have rules for salt water vs fresh, which irl would have a significant impact on a situation like this.
Remember, the spell *has* to work by magically establishing a bolt from the caster to the target. It's sheer conjecture (DM fiat) if and then how this magic would be impacted by water vs air. I can invent explanations under which the water doesn't matter and ones where it matters more than anything else. RAW, Witch Bolt works the same in air, fresh water, salt water, lava, pudding, creamed corn, hard vacuum, and pure methane.
I wouldn't have the spell act any differently underwater because there is way, way too much room for physics-based shenanigans if you start changing how lightning works when it interacts with water.
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Basically it acts like an electric fireball centered on the point where it hits the water, I’m hoping I can talk the DM into having that be what happens.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I was actually thinking you said Lightning Bolt. (I don't know, I guess I can't read.) With Witch Bolt I'd be less willing to turn it into an AoE. You're welcome to try though.
Depending on the situation, it's possible you can't see the underwater creatures. There's no written rule for how deep they'd need to be, or what effect various brightnesses of light would have, but that's to leave the doors open for whatever. I've run fights in the dark where the lanterns and stuff carried by the party aren't enough to illuminate more than a few feet down. It changes the power level of the enemy quite a bit. You see a lot of readied actions. Anyway, my point is, if you can't see him, you can't target him with Witch Bolt, so that may throw a wrench into things.
It may because it’s swirling water from a waterfall and a raked open door. The water is only 8 feet deep max but only the rogue has actually seen the creatures. I expect to be at disadvantage but am hoping to get some sort of area of effect out of it. On the other hand I may just grab both and run up the stairs behind us towards the rest of the party and see if we can find a different way past them at full strength.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Witch Bolt only targets creatures. Attempting to target something other than a creature causes the spell to fail.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That is fine what happens when the creature you are targeting is below the surface of the water?
If you go by physics you should actually get advantage on your to hit roll since the charge spreads out evenly in all directions weakening as it spreads out. Now physics based this weakening is an inverse square law effect so at 20’ r the effect is 1/4 what it would be at 10’r. In game terms this would be that everything in a 10’r of the point where it hits the water makes a con save (lightning is too fast to dodge but you may have the con to withstand the shock) those that fail takes full damage, everything from 10’ to 20 ‘ takes 1/2 damage and everything from 20’ to 30’ feels a tingle but takes no damage unless they crit fail a con save. Making their save halves the damage they take. As long as the targeted foe is within 20’ of the entry point they would be hit so the spell works. As written the spell potentially fails as the water acts like a wall blocking the electric current from reaching the target. That is fine for insulators like stone and wood walls and even clear glass windows since they ARE insulators. Water is a conductor and shouldn’t stop the flow of current. In older versions lightning/electricity based attacks actually did stuff like I proposed. In 2 e and I think 3e there were rules for electricity and water. It wasn’t the witch bolt spell (which didn’t exist) but lightning bolts acted according to physics - and they didn’t have to start at you making you the center of the ball lightning. You actually could have the bolt start where you wanted in a range and go the way you wanted from there making it much more useful.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The giant lightning eel has an ability you might be able to adapt. It basically has an 11th-level shocking grasp on land, but in water it affects everything within 15 feet with that same 3d8 damage rather than only one creature it touches
witch bolt would be tricky, though, because of the ongoing effect
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would be careful about springing any surprises on players, like "you cast the lightning bolt and instead of a line from you it erupts in a sphere around you make a DEX save..."
I think part of a character's training in using a spell would be knowing how it reacts in different circumstances. If there are any unusual effects for a spell in a certain environment, at least have the player make an arcana check to find that out before casting the spell.
Sorry to make it clear - in this case I’m the player trying to figure out what my character would know about how his spells work, not the DM deciding the action, that is why I was asking if there were rules I was missing somewhere.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m fine with having to cast witch bolt every round rather than the continuous attack, I just need it to hit and do some damage.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The spell only targets creatures. If you're trying to go off script then the answer is: Whatever your DM on the spot homebrews for you.
Edit: To everyone here trying to model how to homebrew this based on how electricity would function IRL in water. Please don't. The man is shooting magical lighting out of his hands. Nothing about this applies to how electricity IRL works. If this was real life casting the spell itself would probably also kill the caster. At the very least it'd render his hands unusable as they're fried into burnt husks in the discharge.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.