We are discussing lightning bolt in a couple of other threads and realizing that it’s 5e form is significantly nerfed from earlier (2e especially) versions where it could bounce off walls, blast thru doors and (if I recall correctly) didn’t have to start at your position. All of which made it a far more useful spell than it is in 5e. What other spells have you come across that got nerfed in 5e?
Find Familiar previously summoned forms based on a dice roll but had a chance of summoning something like a pseudodragon, brownie or imp. The presence of a familiar leant hp to the wizard but, if the familiar died, there would be a permanent loss. This second point made it better.
Does it now? I mean, it has a casting time, but it doesn't limit any spell effect that you can produce with it by casting time.
Sorry for the ambiguity.
As a caster, you are limited in the number of times you can cast wish by the recurrent "33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again ...."
We are discussing lightning bolt in a couple of other threads and realizing that it’s 5e form is significantly nerfed from earlier (2e especially) versions where it could bounce off walls, blast thru doors and (if I recall correctly) didn’t have to start at your position. All of which made it a far more useful spell than it is in 5e. What other spells have you come across that got nerfed in 5e?
This isn't a nerf.
The best case use of lightning bolt is down a hallway. Pop, all the enemies get fried.
But, imagine if you didn't realize that hallway ended just past your light's radius and the lightning bolt reflected.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
... The best case use of lightning bolt is down a hallway. Pop, all the enemies get fried.
But, imagine if you didn't realize that hallway ended just past your light's radius and the lightning bolt reflected.
While the earlier lightning bolt slightly lacked the new form's 100-foot potential length, it had greater flexibility.
"... The area of the lightning bolt's effect is determined by the spell caster, just as its distance is. The stroke can be either a forking bolt 1" wide and 4" long [10 foot wide and 40 foot long], or a single bolt 1/2" wide and 8" long [5 foot wide and 80 foot long]. If a 12th level magic-user cast the spell at its maximum range, 16" in this case, the stroke would begin at 16" and flash outward from there, as a forked bolt ending at 20" or a single one ending at 24". Given the ambiguity here, some DMs might let even these distances be shortened.
However, if a DM used illusion magic or otherwise limited characters' abilities to see, an ad&d Magic User could be in trouble.
Also, as ad&d Magic Users had to "memorize and prepare for the use of each spell" individually, they would not be able to use another spell in the place of lightning bolt if that was a spell memorised and prepared.
measurements quoted are of indoor use but the possibility to use the spell at considerable range could have utility. Outdoors all measurements increase considerably making this spell awesome in plains or forests. Sea vessels could be in trouble.
It was a more flexible spell in a less flexible system. Swings and roundabouts.
Even though it isn't in the rules anymore, I still rule that Lightning Bolt bounces and if you throw a Fireball into a tiny room, its explosion is coming out the door. Don't fret, my players are aware of these rules and even get reminders when they go to use them.
Some other nerfed spells wall of … I remember them as not being concentration but rather cast and forget and wall of stone was permanent not a 10 min duration. wall of ice has been nerfed but the rewrite opens some very interesting possibilities for hall/room uses. A wall is a solid surface so should be able to cast it as a horizontal as long as at least 2 opposite sides are against walls. Pick one wall as the “bottom and cast it about 4-5’ off the ground and it should shove every foe to the top wall and lock them there doing 5D6 or 10D6 cold damage to each one and effectively grappling them around the shoulders so they can’t use their arms and weapons to shatter the wall. Then send your gnome/halfling/dwarf down under the wall to slice their femoral arteries and let them bleed out. I did it that way years ago against giants until the DM read the spell carefully and showed me where it said the wall had to be vertical. I’ve missed that use for 30+ years and now I have it back 😳😁😁 (maybe).
FYI you remember spells in earlier editions as not being concentration because Concentration is new to 5e. It's meant to prevent an overabundance of spell effects that must be kept track of in combat.
Well that explains a certain amount. My point is that wall of stone used to be permanent you could put it up as a solid permanent barrier in older editions now you have to concentrate on it and it disappears after a time no matter what which takes away permanent construction uses and other long lasting uses.
Not quite there, wall of stone is permanent if you concentrate on it for its duration. You can lose it, but you can also make a lasting obstacle if you manage to maintain that concentration.
If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can't be dispelled.
Better but I prefer to cast it and run and use the time they are breaking thru to escape
True enough, but if you are escaping with the wall between you and all the attacks that might cause you to lose concentration, you might be able to concentrate freely on it for the duration or at least long enough to make your escape. It has the big advantage over many other spells in that it just happens, vs saves to avoid or to hit rolls.
It certainly might be a net nerf from previous editions, I really don't know. But it is still an effective spell in 5e
We are discussing lightning bolt in a couple of other threads and realizing that it’s 5e form is significantly nerfed from earlier (2e especially) versions where it could bounce off walls, blast thru doors and (if I recall correctly) didn’t have to start at your position. All of which made it a far more useful spell than it is in 5e. What other spells have you come across that got nerfed in 5e?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Find Familiar previously summoned forms based on a dice roll but had a chance of summoning something like a pseudodragon, brownie or imp.
The presence of a familiar leant hp to the wizard but, if the familiar died, there would be a permanent loss. This second point made it better.
Wish didn't have a casting times limitation.
Does it now? I mean, it has a casting time, but it doesn't limit any spell effect that you can produce with it by casting time.
Sorry for the ambiguity.
As a caster, you are limited in the number of times you can cast wish by the recurrent "33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again ...."
Crossed wires.
Ah. I thought you meant something about casting time rather than number of times. sorry.
This isn't a nerf.
The best case use of lightning bolt is down a hallway. Pop, all the enemies get fried.
But, imagine if you didn't realize that hallway ended just past your light's radius and the lightning bolt reflected.
Now your party is dead.
Oops.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
While the earlier lightning bolt slightly lacked the new form's 100-foot potential length, it had greater flexibility.
"... The area of the lightning bolt's effect is determined by the spell caster, just as its distance is. The stroke can be either a forking bolt 1" wide and 4" long [10 foot wide and 40 foot long], or a single bolt 1/2" wide and 8" long [5 foot wide and 80 foot long]. If a 12th level magic-user cast the spell at its maximum range, 16" in this case, the stroke would begin at 16" and flash outward from there, as a forked bolt ending at 20" or a single one ending at 24". Given the ambiguity here, some DMs might let even these distances be shortened.
However, if a DM used illusion magic or otherwise limited characters' abilities to see, an ad&d Magic User could be in trouble.
Also, as ad&d Magic Users had to "memorize and prepare for the use of each spell" individually, they would not be able to use another spell in the place of lightning bolt if that was a spell memorised and prepared.
measurements quoted are of indoor use but the possibility to use the spell at considerable range could have utility. Outdoors all measurements increase considerably making this spell awesome in plains or forests. Sea vessels could be in trouble.
It was a more flexible spell in a less flexible system. Swings and roundabouts.
Even though it isn't in the rules anymore, I still rule that Lightning Bolt bounces and if you throw a Fireball into a tiny room, its explosion is coming out the door. Don't fret, my players are aware of these rules and even get reminders when they go to use them.
Some other nerfed spells wall of … I remember them as not being concentration but rather cast and forget and wall of stone was permanent not a 10 min duration.
wall of ice has been nerfed but the rewrite opens some very interesting possibilities for hall/room uses. A wall is a solid surface so should be able to cast it as a horizontal as long as at least 2 opposite sides are against walls. Pick one wall as the “bottom and cast it about 4-5’ off the ground and it should shove every foe to the top wall and lock them there doing 5D6 or 10D6 cold damage to each one and effectively grappling them around the shoulders so they can’t use their arms and weapons to shatter the wall. Then send your gnome/halfling/dwarf down under the wall to slice their femoral arteries and let them bleed out. I did it that way years ago against giants until the DM read the spell carefully and showed me where it said the wall had to be vertical. I’ve missed that use for 30+ years and now I have it back 😳😁😁 (maybe).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
FYI you remember spells in earlier editions as not being concentration because Concentration is new to 5e. It's meant to prevent an overabundance of spell effects that must be kept track of in combat.
Wall of Stone is 10 minutes concentration, but Stone Shape is permanent.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Well that explains a certain amount. My point is that wall of stone used to be permanent you could put it up as a solid permanent barrier in older editions now you have to concentrate on it and it disappears after a time no matter what which takes away permanent construction uses and other long lasting uses.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Not quite there, wall of stone is permanent if you concentrate on it for its duration. You can lose it, but you can also make a lasting obstacle if you manage to maintain that concentration.
Better but I prefer to cast it and run and use the time they are breaking thru to escape
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
True enough, but if you are escaping with the wall between you and all the attacks that might cause you to lose concentration, you might be able to concentrate freely on it for the duration or at least long enough to make your escape. It has the big advantage over many other spells in that it just happens, vs saves to avoid or to hit rolls.
It certainly might be a net nerf from previous editions, I really don't know. But it is still an effective spell in 5e