And it casts plane shift or something similar and....
That's the strange thing. Demiliches are CR 18 and don't have Plane shift unless it's a homebrewed Demilich. If the Demilich is Homebrewed to have spells, it would be much higher CR than 18
Could have an item. Seems like an oversight to me. But then I would likely make them immune to grappling (or at least have it require a save or something just from touching them)
Would you also adjust the CR rating? I mean, people can do what they want with their homebrew rules.
But I find this a strange thing where DM's will just give a creature extra powers on the spur of the moment just to prevent characters from "winning".
Of course there should be some kind of contested roll to get a sack over a moving object. But I don't think it's fair to players to just add spells to a creature just to foil a character who does something the DM hasn't prepared for, thus increasing the CR rating.
Funny thing is that in discussing this, I've realized that getting within 45 feet of a Demilich is probably the most dangerous way to defeat it, so trying to get it into a sack is the worst plan even with just RAW. All it's deadly effects are 10'-30' radius, and it can automatically make save against 3 failed attempts to bag it. With the DEX of the Demilich as 20 - trying to bag it can easily take more than 4 rounds - and all the time that silly character is in range of the Demilich's life drain, howl, and legendary attacks.
What this tells me as a player is that with RAW the safest way to beat it is to just pot shot it from outside of the 30 feet range of its abilities and all the party try and stay out of that range. Hopefully whatever DM I'm playing with doesn't suddenly make up some kind of ability to counter this tactic in the middle of the encounter when he hears the party's plans.
As a DM this tell me to make Demilich lairs no larger than 60 feet in diameter, and design the dungeon so the players cannot easily retreat outside the room.
This thread is talking about defeating a CR 18 creature with a bag of holding and a grapple
Who said it has to be a grapple with Strength? I was thinking Dex. That's the simplest and most obvious. It could even be a save, as someone previously said - which means the demilich gets three Legendary Resistances. I don't think anyone in any party has proficiency in "sacking flying objects", so the character has no proficiency modifiers.
Who said a Demilich can get "distracted", lol? Are you talking about "Distracting Strike" by fighters? That only works if it's agreed that pulling a bag over it is an "attack roll", which is not in any rules so that part is where DM's would have leeway in RAW. Distracting Strike also requires a "to hit" by the fighter before it gives the other player advantage on their attack roll. So now they have a minimum of two players in the radius of life drain and howl. We'd probably need a third as well to draw the strings of the sack before the lich thinks to fly out in the next round.
The proverbial 2nd level character would have to survive a minimum of 3 rounds with three players within 10 feet of the demilich before he even has a remote chance to bag it.
How does shutting down so easy a win against a legendary big bad equate with 'fudging against the players?'
Simple - if you create an encounter, then retcon it outside of the rules in reaction to player actions, I call that fudging. You suddenly change the universe to make an encounter more difficult because the players did something you didn't anticipate. If you already decided the Demilich has all lich spells and you figure the players are capable of defeating it with these added spells when you create the encounter, that's fine. But if let's say you are using a module and the players are in a given level range and then you just add in powers - that's where I say it's fudging. You might as well just say the Demilich rolls a nat 20 and avoids the bag. It's the same result. Or just tell the players straight up "You can't do that. I won't allow it".
So let's take your method to its conclusion. You decide it's a grapple attack and it's immune to grappling so the players can't use the bag do something else. After the demilich uses its 3 legendary resistances in round 1 against various high level spells by the Cleric, Sorcerer and Warlock, the Wizard gets lucky and polymorphs it into a cute little turtle using a mere 4th level spell slot before the Demilich even gets to it's first action. Immune to polymorph isn't in the stat block in 5e - do you add it on the fly because you judge it was an "oversight" and "too easy". You rule yes, polymorph is cheese and too easy and demiliches are in fact immune to polymorph. In the end the party gets TPK'd and your players are discussing this encounter with their other DM friend and that DM says "nah, those things are not in the rules as they are written. Your DM made that stuff up."
All the time, the simplest solution was to just say it's a Dex save. When the player talks to another DM, that DM says "Yeah, that's a tough one. There isn't really a rule for that. If it was me I'd just change the rules and kill you."
Here is an article on ability checks vs saving throws. It's not official, but I would say that unless there is a specific rule for using grapple with a sack, we could use either a dexterity check or Dexterity saving throw and there isn't any reason to feel any grapple rules are being violated. There's a strong case for using Dex save, because the demilich would be attempting to physically get out of the way of a negative effect (being in a sack).
What I have been saying since Golaryn posted is that it's completely possible to not violate any rules as written, nor make up any rules and also keep it as a very challenging encounter within the rules - unless the DM has been handing out bags of holding left and right and the every 2nd level player each has their own bag of holding, lol. But that's another topic.
Player: Uses their action to attempt to pull bag over Demilich.
Demilich: Makes a DEX save (DC = 8 + Player’s Proficiency Bonus + STR or DEX).
On fail, Demilich is shoved into bag. Demilich is Blinded, Restrained, and has Total Cover from effects originating outside the bag. Can make a strength check to escape the bag.
To get a Demilich into a Bag of Holding I'd favour a Dexterity saving throw if you're manoeuvring the bag over the creature, or a contested shove if you are attempting to force the creature into the bag. It would depend on how you worded the action.
Once it is in the bag it is pretty useless since it can't see anyone and is not in proximity with anyone either, being in an extradimensional space, but it could try to escape. There's not much guidance on getting out of a Bag of Holding, but there are rules for getting out of the somewhat similar Portable Hole, so I'd probably follow along those lines. Assuming you closed the bag so it can't fly straight back out. ;-)
If the hole is folded up, a creature within the hole’s extradimensional space can use an action to make a DC 10 Strength check. On a successful check, the creature forces its way out and appears within 5 feet of the portable hole or the creature carrying it.
With a -5 Strength modifier even a DC10 check is potentially tough for a Demilich, and it uses up its action for that turn, so you could buy yourself time to heal or run away.
Which grapple rules are you referring to? I'd be interested in reading the grapple rules regarding placing a bag over a flying object.
First let's establish what the rules actually say, then we can see if anything is re-writing them.
There aren't any rules for that because you can't grapple objects, but since the Demilich isn't an object, that's also completely irrelevant. We're discussing grappling a creature and then forcing the grappled creature from one space to another, which is 100% covered by the rules and is the primary way a variety of flying creatures hunt, like eagles.
There is your problem. You are approaching this from the question of the OP as stated rather than looking at the obvious alternative solution that is covered by the rules.
It seems you are in the minority. Grapple isn't the "obvious" solution - it's the worst one. You're the only one in this thread who is pushing the clunky grapple perspective. (and then having to punish the characters because it is too easy and "cheese").
The issue is not breaking out of the "net". The issue is getting the creature into the "net"/ bag, so strength checks to break out of a net / bag are irrelevant to getting it into the bag.
Attacking with a net is not a grapple attack. If you want to argue it is a "to hit" without any specialization bonuses I could go along with that, but again, it is not a grapple to see if the net covers the Demilich.
So again, strength isn't even a factor and pushing strength as the trait to use is just bass akwards.
Mostly everyone else agrees with a method other than grapple as the attack to determine if the Demilich is put into the bag.
Whether it's "to hit" with a "net"/bag, or a Dex save (as the majority seems to think) - both the AC and the Dex of the lich are 20. A player's "to hit" roll would be unskilled unless they have proficiency in attacking with bags, while a Dex save would be rolled by the DM and can be automatically successful three times.
The point stands that it's a difficult task in and of itself to get the Demilich in the bag, so there is no need to cheese against the players or punish them for trying this tactic.
As we both agree, there isn't a rule for it and the rest is open to judgement. I guess you can do it your way in your game and punish your players for doing this kind of thing by writing in new abilities for monsters to counter player actions, and the rest of us will just use common sense.
I would only copy the net rules at all if the PC was trying to attack with the bag, which I would certainly allow, but only after pointing out to the PC that grappling/shoving is a far superior way to solve the same problem, given how the rules work. And I'd only allow it as a melee attack, unlike actual nets, unless the PC had already modified the bag to be weighted and stiffened so it would readily remain open when thrown. Probably a melee attack at disadvantage, counting as an improvised weapon for proficiency purposes. But it would just be worse than going the opposed ability check route.
I should note there are multiple potential ways to grapple/shove the demilich into the bag, and I haven't been explicitly clear, so I should be. The methods have different levels of rules support:
Shove: Any bugbear adjacent to a demilich can hold the bag behind the demilich and execute a normal shove. This moves the demilich 5 feet away from the bugbear, into the open bag.
As a DM, I would demand the bugbear hold the bag in both hands (to hold the mouth of the bag open) and then Shove with a kick. There's no RAW basis for this, because we don't have RAW delving into the physics of how cloth bags work, but since it also doesn't violate any RAW (again, the RAW for bags doesn't exist), I'd feel very comfortable in my ruling.
I would not require the shover to be the bag holder - the PCs would 100% be allowed to have 1 PC hold the bag open while another PC does the shoving. This gets around the need for the shover to have Reach 10+.
Shove Aside: The DMG has "variant" (as a reminder, the grid rules that almost everyone plays with are themselves a variant; declaring something a variant rule doesn't stop it from being RAW, it just means not everyone plays with said RAW) rule for shove aside that lets the shover roll with disadvantage, but the target can be shoved into any other space also within reach. I would 100% let the shover do this to force the demilich into the bag even without Reach, since the space in the bag would be within the shover's reach - that's how bags of holding work.
Grapple: You can explicitly move a grappled creature, but the RAW on doing so lacks any text clarifying where the creature goes. I've had this come up in many D&D games, and I've never seen two different DMs rule exactly the same way on it. Something you can unquestionably do, however, is grab the demilich, climb into the bag, release the demilich, then climb back out. Where it gets mechanically dicey is trying to do this with the grapple rules without going into the bag yourself.
Here’s a revised version on how I’d rule the situation.
If a creature wants to “bag” another creature, I’d treat the bag as an improvised weapon with the two-handed, heavy, and special properties. If the bag is a bag of holding, it lacks the heavy property.
On a hit, the target creature is grappled and has disadvantage into checks to escape, grappler has advantage.
If the bag is a bag of holding, the target creature is restrained and pulled into the bag, which they can escape with a strength or dexterity check.
Here’s a revised version on how I’d rule the situation.
If a creature wants to “bag” another creature, I’d treat the bag as an improvised weapon with the two-handed, heavy, and special properties. If the bag is a bag of holding, it lacks the heavy property.
On a hit, the target creature is grappled and has disadvantage into checks to escape, grappler has advantage.
If the bag is a bag of holding, the target creature is restrained and pulled into the bag, which they can escape with a strength or dexterity check.
Nice idea! Too nice!
I'd rule bags of holding as being difficult to wield.
Just for mechanical balance, I'd say that they had properties a bit like a gyroscope.
If the bag is a bag of holding, the target creature is restrained and pulled into the bag, which they can escape with a strength or dexterity check.
The bag doesn't SUCK things into it. You have to completely place something in it. This means it is far more difficult to get the bag to completely enclose something than just putting part of it into the bag.
That's the strange thing. Demiliches are CR 18 and don't have Plane shift unless it's a homebrewed Demilich. If the Demilich is Homebrewed to have spells, it would be much higher CR than 18
Would you also adjust the CR rating?
I mean, people can do what they want with their homebrew rules.
But I find this a strange thing where DM's will just give a creature extra powers on the spur of the moment just to prevent characters from "winning".
Of course there should be some kind of contested roll to get a sack over a moving object.
But I don't think it's fair to players to just add spells to a creature just to foil a character who does something the DM hasn't prepared for, thus increasing the CR rating.
Funny thing is that in discussing this, I've realized that getting within 45 feet of a Demilich is probably the most dangerous way to defeat it, so trying to get it into a sack is the worst plan even with just RAW. All it's deadly effects are 10'-30' radius, and it can automatically make save against 3 failed attempts to bag it. With the DEX of the Demilich as 20 - trying to bag it can easily take more than 4 rounds - and all the time that silly character is in range of the Demilich's life drain, howl, and legendary attacks.
What this tells me as a player is that with RAW the safest way to beat it is to just pot shot it from outside of the 30 feet range of its abilities and all the party try and stay out of that range. Hopefully whatever DM I'm playing with doesn't suddenly make up some kind of ability to counter this tactic in the middle of the encounter when he hears the party's plans.
As a DM this tell me to make Demilich lairs no larger than 60 feet in diameter, and design the dungeon so the players cannot easily retreat outside the room.
No need to fudge against the players, because the
Who said it has to be a grapple with Strength? I was thinking Dex. That's the simplest and most obvious. It could even be a save, as someone previously said - which means the demilich gets three Legendary Resistances. I don't think anyone in any party has proficiency in "sacking flying objects", so the character has no proficiency modifiers.
Who said a Demilich can get "distracted", lol? Are you talking about "Distracting Strike" by fighters? That only works if it's agreed that pulling a bag over it is an "attack roll", which is not in any rules so that part is where DM's would have leeway in RAW. Distracting Strike also requires a "to hit" by the fighter before it gives the other player advantage on their attack roll. So now they have a minimum of two players in the radius of life drain and howl. We'd probably need a third as well to draw the strings of the sack before the lich thinks to fly out in the next round.
The proverbial 2nd level character would have to survive a minimum of 3 rounds with three players within 10 feet of the demilich before he even has a remote chance to bag it.
Simple - if you create an encounter, then retcon it outside of the rules in reaction to player actions, I call that fudging. You suddenly change the universe to make an encounter more difficult because the players did something you didn't anticipate.
If you already decided the Demilich has all lich spells and you figure the players are capable of defeating it with these added spells when you create the encounter, that's fine. But if let's say you are using a module and the players are in a given level range and then you just add in powers - that's where I say it's fudging. You might as well just say the Demilich rolls a nat 20 and avoids the bag. It's the same result. Or just tell the players straight up "You can't do that. I won't allow it".
So let's take your method to its conclusion. You decide it's a grapple attack and it's immune to grappling so the players can't use the bag do something else. After the demilich uses its 3 legendary resistances in round 1 against various high level spells by the Cleric, Sorcerer and Warlock, the Wizard gets lucky and polymorphs it into a cute little turtle using a mere 4th level spell slot before the Demilich even gets to it's first action. Immune to polymorph isn't in the stat block in 5e - do you add it on the fly because you judge it was an "oversight" and "too easy".
You rule yes, polymorph is cheese and too easy and demiliches are in fact immune to polymorph. In the end the party gets TPK'd and your players are discussing this encounter with their other DM friend and that DM says "nah, those things are not in the rules as they are written. Your DM made that stuff up."
All the time, the simplest solution was to just say it's a Dex save. When the player talks to another DM, that DM says "Yeah, that's a tough one. There isn't really a rule for that. If it was me I'd just change the rules and kill you."
Which grapple rules are you referring to? I'd be interested in reading the grapple rules regarding placing a bag over a flying object.
First let's establish what the rules actually say, then we can see if anything is re-writing them.
Here is an article on ability checks vs saving throws. It's not official, but I would say that unless there is a specific rule for using grapple with a sack, we could use either a dexterity check or Dexterity saving throw and there isn't any reason to feel any grapple rules are being violated. There's a strong case for using Dex save, because the demilich would be attempting to physically get out of the way of a negative effect (being in a sack).
https://makeaskillcheck.com/5e-ability-checks-vs-saving-throws/
What I have been saying since Golaryn posted is that it's completely possible to not violate any rules as written, nor make up any rules and also keep it as a very challenging encounter within the rules - unless the DM has been handing out bags of holding left and right and the every 2nd level player each has their own bag of holding, lol. But that's another topic.
Here’s how I’d rule the sequence of events:
Player: Uses their action to attempt to pull bag over Demilich.
Demilich: Makes a DEX save (DC = 8 + Player’s Proficiency Bonus + STR or DEX).
On fail, Demilich is shoved into bag. Demilich is Blinded, Restrained, and has Total Cover from effects originating outside the bag. Can make a strength check to escape the bag.
On success, Demilich is not shoved into bag.
To get a Demilich into a Bag of Holding I'd favour a Dexterity saving throw if you're manoeuvring the bag over the creature, or a contested shove if you are attempting to force the creature into the bag. It would depend on how you worded the action.
Once it is in the bag it is pretty useless since it can't see anyone and is not in proximity with anyone either, being in an extradimensional space, but it could try to escape. There's not much guidance on getting out of a Bag of Holding, but there are rules for getting out of the somewhat similar Portable Hole, so I'd probably follow along those lines. Assuming you closed the bag so it can't fly straight back out. ;-)
With a -5 Strength modifier even a DC10 check is potentially tough for a Demilich, and it uses up its action for that turn, so you could buy yourself time to heal or run away.
There aren't any rules for that because you can't grapple objects, but since the Demilich isn't an object, that's also completely irrelevant. We're discussing grappling a creature and then forcing the grappled creature from one space to another, which is 100% covered by the rules and is the primary way a variety of flying creatures hunt, like eagles.
It seems you are in the minority. Grapple isn't the "obvious" solution - it's the worst one. You're the only one in this thread who is pushing the clunky grapple perspective. (and then having to punish the characters because it is too easy and "cheese").
The issue is not breaking out of the "net". The issue is getting the creature into the "net"/ bag, so strength checks to break out of a net / bag are irrelevant to getting it into the bag.
Attacking with a net is not a grapple attack. If you want to argue it is a "to hit" without any specialization bonuses I could go along with that, but again, it is not a grapple to see if the net covers the Demilich.
So again, strength isn't even a factor and pushing strength as the trait to use is just bass akwards.
Mostly everyone else agrees with a method other than grapple as the attack to determine if the Demilich is put into the bag.
Whether it's "to hit" with a "net"/bag, or a Dex save (as the majority seems to think) - both the AC and the Dex of the lich are 20. A player's "to hit" roll would be unskilled unless they have proficiency in attacking with bags, while a Dex save would be rolled by the DM and can be automatically successful three times.
The point stands that it's a difficult task in and of itself to get the Demilich in the bag, so there is no need to cheese against the players or punish them for trying this tactic.
As we both agree, there isn't a rule for it and the rest is open to judgement. I guess you can do it your way in your game and punish your players for doing this kind of thing by writing in new abilities for monsters to counter player actions, and the rest of us will just use common sense.
I would only copy the net rules at all if the PC was trying to attack with the bag, which I would certainly allow, but only after pointing out to the PC that grappling/shoving is a far superior way to solve the same problem, given how the rules work. And I'd only allow it as a melee attack, unlike actual nets, unless the PC had already modified the bag to be weighted and stiffened so it would readily remain open when thrown. Probably a melee attack at disadvantage, counting as an improvised weapon for proficiency purposes. But it would just be worse than going the opposed ability check route.
I should note there are multiple potential ways to grapple/shove the demilich into the bag, and I haven't been explicitly clear, so I should be. The methods have different levels of rules support:
Here’s a revised version on how I’d rule the situation.
If a creature wants to “bag” another creature, I’d treat the bag as an improvised weapon with the two-handed, heavy, and special properties. If the bag is a bag of holding, it lacks the heavy property.
On a hit, the target creature is grappled and has disadvantage into checks to escape, grappler has advantage.
If the bag is a bag of holding, the target creature is restrained and pulled into the bag, which they can escape with a strength or dexterity check.
Nice idea! Too nice!
I'd rule bags of holding as being difficult to wield.
Just for mechanical balance, I'd say that they had properties a bit like a gyroscope.
The bag doesn't SUCK things into it. You have to completely place something in it. This means it is far more difficult to get the bag to completely enclose something than just putting part of it into the bag.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Welch is no longer allowed to do that in tabletop RPGs.