Yes of course everything at your table is ultimately your DMs call. However this is the Rules and Mechanics section, our answers should be determined by RAW and not individual DM calls.
Lets look at the wording of the abilities I mentioned
Dread Ambusher
At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type.
Rapid Strike
Starting at 15th level, you learn to trade accuracy for swift strikes. If you take the Attack action on your turn and have advantage on an attack roll against against one of the targets, you can forgo the advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn.
Both abilities mention you can make an additional attack as part of the same action. However Rapid Strike has the additional restraint that you cannot do so more than once a turn.
Now your argument of Dread Ambusher was not considering Action Surge as a possibility is fairly weak. I mean these subclasses came out in Xanathar's not the PHB, so multiclassing will not be a new nor foreign idea to the design team. If they truly did not want Dread Ambusher to be stackable with Action Surge they would have added a once per turn trigger like you see on some other Ranger abilities.
I mean you can take a look at Monster Slayer which also came out in Xanathar's, Slayer's Prey is capped once per turn.
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
Not sure what's absurd about it tbh. A fighter that surges and have an bonus action attack can do 3 attacks at lvl1-4, 5 attacks at lvl 5-10, 7 attacks at lvl 11-19 and 9 attacks at lvl 20. Making lots of attacks is what the fighter is about. The fact that a class feature that is specifically meant to increase your number of attacks works really well when paired with the fighters class features shouldn't be a surprise to anyone tbh.
It's seven attacks. At level 7
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not sure what's absurd about it tbh. A fighter that surges and have an bonus action attack can do 3 attacks at lvl1-4, 5 attacks at lvl 5-10, 7 attacks at lvl 11-19 and 9 attacks at lvl 20. Making lots of attacks is what the fighter is about. The fact that a class feature that is specifically meant to increase your number of attacks works really well when paired with the fighters class features shouldn't be a surprise to anyone tbh.
It's seven attacks. At level 7
7 attacks at level 8 is trivial, since we're counting "Nova" attacks - we don't need to sustain them; for example, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 5/Warlock 1 can Haste themselves and then cast Eldritch Blast twice on each of their Actions, then cast it Quickened on their bonus action, then shoot someone with a crossbow with their Haste action - and that's without changing builds radically to field a Bladesinger 6 with Eldritch Blast, which combined with Fighter 2 is eight attacks (2 attack actions of scimitar+eldritch blastx2 each, bonus action scimitar, Haste scimitar).
EDIT: I apologize, I didn't think about Gloom Stalker 5/Fighter 2, which would achieve it at 7. Leaving post intact to emphasize that 7 attacks while going nova is not remarkable in this level range, although my examples are admittedly weaker due to using 8 levels.
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
But they did... "if you take" and "whenever you take" comes out meaning the same thing under any reasonable reading of it.
Yep, as everyone else has said it's 3 attacks per attack action in the first turn, plus one bonus action attack from crossbow expert.
Incidently, unless you're entering combat vs 6 goblins, I'd recommend instead of using the initial bonus action for an attack, you're better off using a hunters mark for a potential 6d6 additional damage if all your attacks connect.
Edit: alternatively you could use the favoured foe optional ability instead, allowing you to make all 7 attacks. I hadn't considered that initially as I've not played a ranger since Tasha's came out.
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
But they did... "if you take" and "whenever you take" comes out meaning the same thing under any reasonable reading of it.
"If" and "whenever" do not mean the same thing.
I am genuinely baffled as to why y'all are digging in your heels so hard on this.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean it's an absurd number either way, and a DM that's going to allow that multiclass combo might as well let the player go off for seven attacks in a turn because at that point LOL
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
But they did... "if you take" and "whenever you take" comes out meaning the same thing under any reasonable reading of it.
"If" and "whenever" do not mean the same thing.
I am genuinely baffled as to why y'all are digging in your heels so hard on this.
Agreed if a parent tells their kid if you wash the car today I will give you $10 they do not mean if they wash it 3 times they get $30.
In hockey, if you shoot the puck in the net during the game, you score a goal. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
In hockey, if you shoot the puck in the net during the game, you score a goal. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
Yes the rules of hockey are whenever you (legally) shoot the puck into the net you score a goal so it counts multiple times.
In hockey, if you shoot the puck in the net during the game, you score a goal. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
In hockey, the actual statement is a "when" statement, not an "if" statement.
Scoring a Goal - A goal shall be scored when the puck shall have been put between the goal posts by the stick of a player of the attacking side, from in front and below the crossbar, and entirely across a red line the width of the diameter of the goal posts drawn on the ice from one goal post to the other with the goal frame in its proper position. (NHL rule 78.4)
There is a definite difference between a condition being met once and the result continuing to apply versus a condition needing to be met for each instance. We might differentiate these by the choice of "if" vs "when," but it is equally valid to differentiate them in the actual result text.
Dread Ambusher uses "if" in its statement; but it tells us that when the condition is true, the result applies to the particular Action that caused the condition to be true. In that case, each action that causes the conditional to be true should be affected by the result. Our rule is like "if X is blue, then X is a boat." A is blue, and B is blue; they're both boats.
Yes of course everything at your table is ultimately your DMs call. However this is the Rules and Mechanics section, our answers should be determined by RAW and not individual DM calls.
Lets look at the wording of the abilities I mentioned
Dread Ambusher
At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type.
Rapid Strike
Starting at 15th level, you learn to trade accuracy for swift strikes. If you take the Attack action on your turn and have advantage on an attack roll against against one of the targets, you can forgo the advantage for that roll to make an additional weapon attack against that target, as part of the same action. You can do so no more than once per turn.
Both abilities mention you can make an additional attack as part of the same action. However Rapid Strike has the additional restraint that you cannot do so more than once a turn.
Now your argument of Dread Ambusher was not considering Action Surge as a possibility is fairly weak. I mean these subclasses came out in Xanathar's not the PHB, so multiclassing will not be a new nor foreign idea to the design team. If they truly did not want Dread Ambusher to be stackable with Action Surge they would have added a once per turn trigger like you see on some other Ranger abilities.
I mean you can take a look at Monster Slayer which also came out in Xanathar's, Slayer's Prey is capped once per turn.
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
You are ignoring my point. Lets look at Slayer's Prey:
Slayer's Prey
Starting at 3rd level, you can focus your ire on one foe, increasing the harm you inflict on it. As a bonus action, you designate one creature you can see within 60 feet of you as the target of this feature. The first time each turn that you hit that target with a weapon attack, it takes an extra 1d6 damage from the weapon.
This benefit lasts until you finish a short or long rest. It ends early if you designate a different creature.
Notice how it says "first time each turn". If an ability is meant to be capped at once per turn it would explicitly say so. Much like many of the Ranger's abilities.
Not sure why NHL rules were pulled when i was making a statement on hockey in general just to illustrate the conditional aspect. I could have just said;
In beer pong, if you throw the ball into a cup of the opposing team, it drink. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
Not sure why NHL rules were pulled when i was making a statement on hockey in general just to illustrate the conditional aspect. I could have just said;
In beer pong, if you throw the ball into a cup of the opposing team, it drink. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
Because you made a false claim and hung your argument on it. By the way IIHF rule 78.4 is constructed identically.
If you're going to make a claim about rules, then you should use rules and not your inventions.
You can misstate the rules or phrase them in a way that is different then they are (or would be) written in rulebooks, but that is still and will always be wrong. That is a problem on your end, not the rule's.
Not sure why NHL rules were pulled when i was making a statement on hockey in general just to illustrate the conditional aspect. I could have just said;
In beer pong, if you throw the ball into a cup of the opposing team, it drink. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
We are discussing wheether "if" means the same as "whenever" as suggested by AntonSirius. For the example of hockey (or beer pong) to be relevent you need to know whether the rules say "if" or "whenever"/"when".
You are ignoring my point. Lets look at Slayer's Prey:
I am not ignoring your point Slayer's Prey like monster player activates on a hit. It is possible to hit more than once without actions surge (I suppose this is not really relevent other than to provide an excurse to WotC for unclear wording in that while they word things carefuly around class abilities with all the hundreds of class and subclass features available when characters multiclass it is much more difficult to ensure the wording is not unambiguous for every single combination)
As I keep saying these features make it very clear they can only be used once per turn, extra attack makes it very clear it can take effect more than once per turn. Dread Ambusher does not use either of these terms and therefore the meaning is unclear. A couple of tweets have been brought up that imply RAI it may be that dread ambusher was intended to astack with action surge (though in areas tweets have contradicted each other) but those tweets have not made it into the SAC and therefore are not part of the rules and therefore RAW we are left with an ambiguity.
If fact you keep ignoreing my point why is it different ot say "if dread ambusher was meant to stack with action surge they would have worded it like extra attack" rather than "if Dread Ambusher was not meant to stack with action surge they would have worded it like Slayer's prey / monster slayer".
As I keep saying these features make it very clear they can only be used once per turn, extra attack makes it very clear it can take effect more than once per turn. Dread Ambusher does not use either of these terms and therefore the meaning is unclear. A couple of tweets have been brought up that imply RAI it may be that dread ambusher was intended to astack with action surge (though in areas tweets have contradicted each other) but those tweets have not made it into the SAC and therefore are not part of the rules and therefore RAW we are left with an ambiguity.
I am genuinely confused as to why we're even still having this discussion. Absolutely no one in this thread has said seven attacks is incorrect
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not sure why NHL rules were pulled when i was making a statement on hockey in general just to illustrate the conditional aspect. I could have just said;
In beer pong, if you throw the ball into a cup of the opposing team, it drink. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
By the way, I think I make it very clear above that I believe that Dread Ambusher applies to each attack action. But it is not because of the use of "if" in the rule, but rather the rest of the rule.
Features like Monster Slayer activate "when you hit" you don't need to multi class and get action surge to hit twice on your turn you just need extra attack.
You can just as easily argue if they intended for Dread Ambusher to stack with Action surge they would specify "whenever you take the attack action" like they did with extra attack.
It's seven attacks. At level 7
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
7 attacks at level 8 is trivial, since we're counting "Nova" attacks - we don't need to sustain them; for example, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 5/Warlock 1 can Haste themselves and then cast Eldritch Blast twice on each of their Actions, then cast it Quickened on their bonus action, then shoot someone with a crossbow with their Haste action - and that's without changing builds radically to field a Bladesinger 6 with Eldritch Blast, which combined with Fighter 2 is eight attacks (2 attack actions of scimitar+eldritch blastx2 each, bonus action scimitar, Haste scimitar).
EDIT: I apologize, I didn't think about Gloom Stalker 5/Fighter 2, which would achieve it at 7. Leaving post intact to emphasize that 7 attacks while going nova is not remarkable in this level range, although my examples are admittedly weaker due to using 8 levels.
But they did... "if you take" and "whenever you take" comes out meaning the same thing under any reasonable reading of it.
Yes! For one turn in one combat per short rest. And it stays the same for the foreseeable future for the character (likely forever).
I mean what you really argue about is the difference of 1 attack extra per short rest, is that seriously a big issue?
Yep, as everyone else has said it's 3 attacks per attack action in the first turn, plus one bonus action attack from crossbow expert.
Incidently, unless you're entering combat vs 6 goblins, I'd recommend instead of using the initial bonus action for an attack, you're better off using a hunters mark for a potential 6d6 additional damage if all your attacks connect.
Edit: alternatively you could use the favoured foe optional ability instead, allowing you to make all 7 attacks. I hadn't considered that initially as I've not played a ranger since Tasha's came out.
"If" and "whenever" do not mean the same thing.
I am genuinely baffled as to why y'all are digging in your heels so hard on this.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. Especially considering I originally said this
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Agreed if a parent tells their kid if you wash the car today I will give you $10 they do not mean if they wash it 3 times they get $30.
In hockey, if you shoot the puck in the net during the game, you score a goal. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
Yes the rules of hockey are whenever you (legally) shoot the puck into the net you score a goal so it counts multiple times.
In hockey, the actual statement is a "when" statement, not an "if" statement.
There is a definite difference between a condition being met once and the result continuing to apply versus a condition needing to be met for each instance. We might differentiate these by the choice of "if" vs "when," but it is equally valid to differentiate them in the actual result text.
Dread Ambusher uses "if" in its statement; but it tells us that when the condition is true, the result applies to the particular Action that caused the condition to be true. In that case, each action that causes the conditional to be true should be affected by the result. Our rule is like "if X is blue, then X is a boat." A is blue, and B is blue; they're both boats.
You are ignoring my point. Lets look at Slayer's Prey:
Slayer's Prey
Starting at 3rd level, you can focus your ire on one foe, increasing the harm you inflict on it. As a bonus action, you designate one creature you can see within 60 feet of you as the target of this feature. The first time each turn that you hit that target with a weapon attack, it takes an extra 1d6 damage from the weapon.
This benefit lasts until you finish a short or long rest. It ends early if you designate a different creature.
Notice how it says "first time each turn". If an ability is meant to be capped at once per turn it would explicitly say so. Much like many of the Ranger's abilities.
Not sure why NHL rules were pulled when i was making a statement on hockey in general just to illustrate the conditional aspect. I could have just said;
In beer pong, if you throw the ball into a cup of the opposing team, it drink. Does it only count once during a game? Or if you do it multiple times, each time count?
Because you made a false claim and hung your argument on it. By the way IIHF rule 78.4 is constructed identically.
If you're going to make a claim about rules, then you should use rules and not your inventions.
You can misstate the rules or phrase them in a way that is different then they are (or would be) written in rulebooks, but that is still and will always be wrong. That is a problem on your end, not the rule's.
We are discussing wheether "if" means the same as "whenever" as suggested by AntonSirius. For the example of hockey (or beer pong) to be relevent you need to know whether the rules say "if" or "whenever"/"when".
Quote from ThelonelyMagi >>
I am not ignoring your point Slayer's Prey like monster player activates on a hit. It is possible to hit more than once without actions surge (I suppose this is not really relevent other than to provide an excurse to WotC for unclear wording in that while they word things carefuly around class abilities with all the hundreds of class and subclass features available when characters multiclass it is much more difficult to ensure the wording is not unambiguous for every single combination)
As I keep saying these features make it very clear they can only be used once per turn, extra attack makes it very clear it can take effect more than once per turn. Dread Ambusher does not use either of these terms and therefore the meaning is unclear. A couple of tweets have been brought up that imply RAI it may be that dread ambusher was intended to astack with action surge (though in areas tweets have contradicted each other) but those tweets have not made it into the SAC and therefore are not part of the rules and therefore RAW we are left with an ambiguity.
If fact you keep ignoreing my point why is it different ot say "if dread ambusher was meant to stack with action surge they would have worded it like extra attack" rather than "if Dread Ambusher was not meant to stack with action surge they would have worded it like Slayer's prey / monster slayer".
I am genuinely confused as to why we're even still having this discussion. Absolutely no one in this thread has said seven attacks is incorrect
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
By the way, I think I make it very clear above that I believe that Dread Ambusher applies to each attack action. But it is not because of the use of "if" in the rule, but rather the rest of the rule.
Note that there are two definitions listed. Are we talking about a situation where one thing depends on another?