Without getting long winded, I am a character in a campaign where 1 of us is a weretiger that has infected my character and another character. The story behind it all fits into the campaign and whether or not we embrace it isn't an issue for us or the DM. In reading through the monster manual to understand all the effects it has upon our characters I’ve found one aspect confusing and I want to hear other peoples take on it. The following is out of the monster manual.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type. The character gains the lycanthrope’s speeds in nonhumanoid form, damage immunities, traits, and actions that don’t involve equipment. The character is proficient with the lycanthrope’s natural attacks, such as its bite or claws, which deal damage as shown in the lycanthrope’s statistics. The character can’t speak while in animal form.”
I understand this statement except that nowhere does it address hit points. A character retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type. Ok, but hit points are specified by lycanthrope type. As I’ve said, the fact that three of us are weretigers in the story of this campaign works. The issue we are having is how to handle hit points. Do the characters retain their hit points based on character class? This makes sense to me as there is already a huge advantage with the damage immunity. On the other hand, the rule says the character retains statistics except by lycanthrope type. Hit points are a statistic under lycanthrope type. What do you guys think.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type.'
From the Weretiger entry in the basic rules of DnDBeyond:
"Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier."
So of your core ability scores only strength is mentioned.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type.'
From the Weretiger entry in the basic rules of DnDBeyond:
"Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier."
So of your core ability scores only strength is mentioned.
Yes but it says statistics not ability scores. The ability score change is made by the lycanthropy type as you quoted. The paragraph I referred to is talking about statistics. Hence the reason for the damage immunities and and Traits that don’t involve equipment. The hit points are part of a monster or character statistics.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type.'
From the Weretiger entry in the basic rules of DnDBeyond:
"Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier."
So of your core ability scores only strength is mentioned.
Yes but it says statistics not ability scores. The ability score change is made by the lycanthropy type as you quoted. The paragraph I referred to is talking about statistics. Hence the reason for the damage immunities and and Traits that don’t involve equipment. The hit points are part of a monster or character statistics.
Ability scores are a subset of statistics. Since HP aren't specifically called out as something that is changed, it will depend on whether your lycanthropy type tells you to change your HP.
If the lycanthropy changes your CON so that you have a different CON bonus, then that would mean that your HP total would change.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type.'
From the Weretiger entry in the basic rules of DnDBeyond:
"Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier."
So of your core ability scores only strength is mentioned.
Yes but it says statistics not ability scores. The ability score change is made by the lycanthropy type as you quoted. The paragraph I referred to is talking about statistics. Hence the reason for the damage immunities and and Traits that don’t involve equipment. The hit points are part of a monster or character statistics.
Ability scores are a subset of statistics. Since HP aren't specifically called out as something that is changed, it will depend on whether your lycanthropy type tells you to change your HP.
If the lycanthropy changes your CON so that you have a different CON bonus, then that would mean that your HP total would change.
It’s just not very clear as HP are a statistic that’s not effected by equipment, nor is it one that’s spelled out by lycanthropy type. If I were the DM and wanted to play as strictly by the rules as I could interpret them in this case, the characters HP should change to an average of 120 per the weretiger statistics. However, I don’t feel it should necessarily work that way as it is such a big advantage at lower levels. On the flip side, it could serve to keep a characters HP lower at higher levels.
It’s just not very clear as HP are a statistic that’s not effected by equipment, nor is it one that’s spelled out by lycanthropy type. If I were the DM and wanted to play as strictly by the rules as I could interpret them in this case, the characters HP should change to an average of 120 per the weretiger statistics. However, I don’t feel it should necessarily work that way as it is such a big advantage at lower levels. On the flip side, it could serve to keep a characters HP lower at higher levels.
HP isn't a statistic by itself though. It is calculated from your level and Con modifier.
That's why the HP's of the Were-creatures in the MM varies wildly, the ones shown are of very varied level. Thinking that a PC that becomes a Were-creature should have a fixed HP that's the same at level 1 and at level 20 is a big misunderstanding of how both PC's and NPC's are built.
What I quoted you is from the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section of the weretiger entry. Your character retains their statistics except as specified by the lycanthrope type. They don't specify in the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section but I think this is a safe and natural assumption.
The monster stat block by its nature has to define everything about the monster. If you think the fact that the monster stat block listing a weretiger's hit points satisfies the requirement "except as specified by lycanthrope type" then that raises other questions. What about your proficiency bonus? If a level 20 character became a weretiger would they now have a +2 proficiency bonus?
Here is how I would apply weretiger lycanthropy to a character:
Their strength becomes 17 if it was less than that before.
Their movement speed becomes 40ft when in tiger form.
They gain immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks that aren't silvered
They gain the Shapechanger, Keen Hearing and Smell, and Pounce traits. The DC for the Pounce trait would be 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier.
They gain the bite and claw natural weapons when in hybrid or tiger form. They are proficient with their natural weapons and use their strength modifier with them. The bite has a damage die of 1d10 and the claw has a damage die of 1d8.
They gain the multiattack action but can only use it to make two claw attacks.
Everything else about the character remains the same.
But this is all just how I interpret the rules. You and your group are free to interpret or change the rules however you want. As long as everyone is having fun at the end of the day that is all that matters.
What I quoted you is from the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section of the weretiger entry. Your character retains their statistics except as specified by the lycanthrope type. They don't specify the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section but I think this is a safe and natural assumption.
The monster stat block by its nature has to define everything about the monster. If you think the fact that the monster stat block listing a weretiger's hit points satisfies the requirement "except as specified by lycanthrope type" then that raises other questions. What about your proficiency bonus? If a level 20 character became a weretiger would they now have a +2 proficiency bonus?
Here is how I would apply weretiger lycanthropy to a character:
Their strength becomes 17 if it was less than that before.
Their movement speed becomes 40ft when in tiger form.
They gain immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks that aren't silvered
They gain the Shapechanger, Keen Hearing and Smell, and Pounce traits. The DC for the Pounce trait would be 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier.
They gain the bite and claw natural weapons when in hybrid or tiger form. They are proficient with their natural weapons and use their strength modifier with them. The bite has a damage die of 1d10 and the claw has a damage die of 1d8.
They gain the multiattack action but can only use it to make two claw attacks.
Everything else about the character remains the same.
But this is all just how I interpret the rules. You and your group are free to interpret or change the rules however you want. As long as everyone is having fun at the end of the day that is all that matters.
I agree with this interpretation of the not so clear rules in this instance. The only thing I would add is the character would gain dark vision if they don’t already have it.
What I quoted you is from the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section of the weretiger entry. Your character retains their statistics except as specified by the lycanthrope type. They don't specify the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section but I think this is a safe and natural assumption.
The monster stat block by its nature has to define everything about the monster. If you think the fact that the monster stat block listing a weretiger's hit points satisfies the requirement "except as specified by lycanthrope type" then that raises other questions. What about your proficiency bonus? If a level 20 character became a weretiger would they now have a +2 proficiency bonus?
Here is how I would apply weretiger lycanthropy to a character:
Their strength becomes 17 if it was less than that before.
Their movement speed becomes 40ft when in tiger form.
They gain immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks that aren't silvered
They gain the Shapechanger, Keen Hearing and Smell, and Pounce traits. The DC for the Pounce trait would be 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier.
They gain the bite and claw natural weapons when in hybrid or tiger form. They are proficient with their natural weapons and use their strength modifier with them. The bite has a damage die of 1d10 and the claw has a damage die of 1d8.
They gain the multiattack action but can only use it to make two claw attacks.
Everything else about the character remains the same.
But this is all just how I interpret the rules. You and your group are free to interpret or change the rules however you want. As long as everyone is having fun at the end of the day that is all that matters.
I agree with this interpretation of the not so clear rules in this instance. The only thing I would add is the character would gain dark vision if they don’t already have it.
The rules are clear, not open to interpretation. If a player character gains lycanthropy, then you would use the modifications listed in the "PLAYER CHARACTERS AS LYCANTHROPES" section for the specific type of lycanthropy.
For a Weretiger, that section says:
A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type. The character gains the lycanthrope’s speeds in nonhumanoid form, damage immunities, traits, and actions that don’t involve equipment. The character is proficient with the lycanthrope’s natural attacks, such as its bite or claws, which deal damage as shown in the lycanthrope’s statistics. The character can’t speak while in animal form.
A non-lycanthrope humanoid hit by an attack that carries the curse of lycanthropy must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + the lycanthrope’s proficiency bonus + the lycanthrope’s Constitution modifier) or be cursed. If the character embraces the curse, his or her alignment becomes the one defined for the lycanthrope. The DM is free to decide that a change in alignment places the character under DM control until the curse of lycanthropy is removed.
The following information applies to specific lycanthropes.
Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier.
No mention of gaining darkvision, or any change to the PCs existing senses.
Yeah, dark vision is interesting because it is a sense, not a trait. I think RAW a player character weretiger wouldn't get darkvision but maybe I am misunderstanding what are considered traits on the monster stat block. Tigers have darkvision so weretigers having it to makes sense. But the weretiger stat block doesn't follow the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" rules. The weretiger monster has a Pounce DC of 14 but a player character with the same strength score and proficiency bonus would have a DC of 13.
Without getting long winded, I am a character in a campaign where 1 of us is a weretiger that has infected my character and another character. The story behind it all fits into the campaign and whether or not we embrace it isn't an issue for us or the DM.
In reading through the monster manual to understand all the effects it has upon our characters I’ve found one aspect confusing and I want to hear other peoples take on it. The following is out of the monster manual.
“A character who becomes a lycanthrope retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type. The character gains the lycanthrope’s speeds in nonhumanoid form, damage immunities, traits, and actions that don’t involve equipment. The character is proficient with the lycanthrope’s natural attacks, such as its bite or claws, which deal damage as shown in the lycanthrope’s statistics. The character can’t speak while in animal form.”
I understand this statement except that nowhere does it address hit points. A character retains his or her statistics except as specified by lycanthrope type. Ok, but hit points are specified by lycanthrope type.
As I’ve said, the fact that three of us are weretigers in the story of this campaign works. The issue we are having is how to handle hit points. Do the characters retain their hit points based on character class? This makes sense to me as there is already a huge advantage with the damage immunity. On the other hand, the rule says the character retains statistics except by lycanthrope type. Hit points are a statistic under lycanthrope type. What do you guys think.
From the Weretiger entry in the basic rules of DnDBeyond:
"Weretiger. The character gains a Strength of 17 if his or her score isn’t already higher. Attack and damage rolls for the natural weapons are based on Strength. For the Pounce trait, the DC is 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier."
So of your core ability scores only strength is mentioned.
Yes but it says statistics not ability scores. The ability score change is made by the lycanthropy type as you quoted. The paragraph I referred to is talking about statistics. Hence the reason for the damage immunities and and Traits that don’t involve equipment. The hit points are part of a monster or character statistics.
Ability scores are a subset of statistics. Since HP aren't specifically called out as something that is changed, it will depend on whether your lycanthropy type tells you to change your HP.
If the lycanthropy changes your CON so that you have a different CON bonus, then that would mean that your HP total would change.
It’s just not very clear as HP are a statistic that’s not effected by equipment, nor is it one that’s spelled out by lycanthropy type. If I were the DM and wanted to play as strictly by the rules as I could interpret them in this case, the characters HP should change to an average of 120 per the weretiger statistics. However, I don’t feel it should necessarily work that way as it is such a big advantage at lower levels. On the flip side, it could serve to keep a characters HP lower at higher levels.
HP isn't a statistic by itself though. It is calculated from your level and Con modifier.
That's why the HP's of the Were-creatures in the MM varies wildly, the ones shown are of very varied level. Thinking that a PC that becomes a Were-creature should have a fixed HP that's the same at level 1 and at level 20 is a big misunderstanding of how both PC's and NPC's are built.
What I quoted you is from the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section of the weretiger entry. Your character retains their statistics except as specified by the lycanthrope type. They don't specify in the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" section but I think this is a safe and natural assumption.
The monster stat block by its nature has to define everything about the monster. If you think the fact that the monster stat block listing a weretiger's hit points satisfies the requirement "except as specified by lycanthrope type" then that raises other questions. What about your proficiency bonus? If a level 20 character became a weretiger would they now have a +2 proficiency bonus?
Here is how I would apply weretiger lycanthropy to a character:
Their strength becomes 17 if it was less than that before.
Their movement speed becomes 40ft when in tiger form.
They gain immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks that aren't silvered
They gain the Shapechanger, Keen Hearing and Smell, and Pounce traits. The DC for the Pounce trait would be 8 + the character’s proficiency bonus + Strength modifier.
They gain the bite and claw natural weapons when in hybrid or tiger form. They are proficient with their natural weapons and use their strength modifier with them. The bite has a damage die of 1d10 and the claw has a damage die of 1d8.
They gain the multiattack action but can only use it to make two claw attacks.
Everything else about the character remains the same.
But this is all just how I interpret the rules. You and your group are free to interpret or change the rules however you want. As long as everyone is having fun at the end of the day that is all that matters.
I agree with this interpretation of the not so clear rules in this instance. The only thing I would add is the character would gain dark vision if they don’t already have it.
The rules are clear, not open to interpretation. If a player character gains lycanthropy, then you would use the modifications listed in the "PLAYER CHARACTERS AS LYCANTHROPES" section for the specific type of lycanthropy.
For a Weretiger, that section says:
No mention of gaining darkvision, or any change to the PCs existing senses.
Yeah, dark vision is interesting because it is a sense, not a trait. I think RAW a player character weretiger wouldn't get darkvision but maybe I am misunderstanding what are considered traits on the monster stat block. Tigers have darkvision so weretigers having it to makes sense. But the weretiger stat block doesn't follow the "Player Characters as Lycanthropes" rules. The weretiger monster has a Pounce DC of 14 but a player character with the same strength score and proficiency bonus would have a DC of 13.
Special traits are described by https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#SpecialTraits
Cool, thanks!