I fundamentally disagree. Nothing should be universally strong or weak.
Right, there are a variety of camp protection spells out there, all of which are either straight up inferior, or substantially higher level and costing a spell slot. Thus, Tiny Hut is universally strong within its general role.
Memnosyne, mind explaining how the following are 'pure energy', given they are not described as such? (all from the Monster Manual btw)
Gold Dragon - The dragon exhales gas in a 90-foot cone. Silver Dragon - The dragon exhales paralyzing gas in a 90-foot cone. Green Dragon - The dragon exhales poisonous gas in a 90-foot cone. Copper Dragon - The dragon exhales gas in a 90-foot cone. Brass Dragon - The dragon exhales sleep gas in a 90-foot cone. Dragon Turtle - The dragon turtle exhales scalding steam in a 60-foot cone.
Again, just the Monster Manual. There is also a sandblasting type breath, and a spore breath, and likely more if we really go looking.
"Dragon Breath Weapons" do not get carte blanche against LTH. Not every breath weapon is an energy weapon.
In my previous posts, I was only referring to the core breath weapons of True Dragons. (I.e. Those that can be chosen when building a Dragonborn, with the exception of the Green dragon). Secondary breath weapons and uncommon breath weapons can certainly have different traits and interactions.
I could have been more clear, but didn't feel like it.
Many of the newer Gem Dragons would also fail this exercise.
The designers are advocating that a dragon's breath weapon is neither magical, nor physical, nor environmental, and thus can enter the Hut. But they give no reference for why the dragon's breath fails to qualify as any of these; and they fail to give reference for why a dragon's breath is unique compared to any other creature.
What, from the text of 5e itself, not from the claims of designers, makes the breath attack of a dragon unique compared to the breath attack of any other creature?
What, from the text of 5e itself, makes the breath attack of a dragon not fit into any category of magical, physical, or environmental?
The key here is that a dragon's breath weapon is stated to be an exemption, but no evidence has been provided to support the statement, so we are left with comparing what we know, with what we have been told, and finding that they don't align.
(1) It's not magical, because it is not a spell and not stated as being magical. (2) It's not environmental, because it is not an effect of the environment. (3) It is not "physical", because it is "energy". (4) The dragon's breath weapon is not unique compared to other creatures that have energy breath weapons. Any such creature would have the same ability.
This is your answer right here. tiny hut doesn't stop any of the things that the breath weapon is.
It blocks Creature.
It blocks Objects.
It blocks Spells.
it blocks Magical Effects.
And an argument is valid for blocking Weather.
This list is missing: Breath Weapons.
In effect, the main endangering issue when it came to facing dragon's could be Leomund's Tiny Hut. Players might naturally think that their characters could shelter for protection in a dome that offered its generally universal form of shelter while being given no warning of a supposed vulnerability to breath attack. Characters would cluster together while being given no warning of a supposed lack of protection and would sacrifice yet another spell slot on a form of protection for which they're given no notification wouldn't work. It might even be appropriately branded as Leomund's Tiny Trap.
Stop trying to use a 'comfortable camping' spell to protect you in combat against dragons of all things? Pretty simple solution imo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An entity is a living, self aware, thinking creature. A human is an entity, a demon is an entity, a very small number of legendary weapons have a personality and consciousness- and would be considered an entity. A red dragon fiery breath is as much an entity as the gas flame I cooked my diner on.
Entity (noun)
"A thing with distinct and independent existence."
It is a term often used to refer to discrete elements. It has nothing to do with creatures or intelligence. You will often find it used in programming and video game development.
The dragon's breath is an "entity" because it has a unique representation that separates it from everything else. Raindrops are typically non-entities because they are treated as a part of the larger weather phenomenon, but if singled out, it becomes an entity.
I guess this means you can also pour acid on the occupants. Boiling oil, boiling water. Actually dirt doesn't even count as an object so you could bury the people inside. Or just pee on them while you wait.
Dirt and fluids are objects, or many objects, if treated as such. Once a physical thing is isolated from the rest of the environment, it gains a new classification.
Are you seriously claiming that when I breath out my breath is a living, thinking, fully independent creature?
Ironically, you'll be spraying a number of fully independent creatures out with every breath. Your breath will carry all sorts of little organisms. Feels like an odd thing to get weirded out by, you have even more, billions of them, crawling throughout you. Your breath having independent creatures in it is pretty minor, all things considered.
I’m clearly not talking about the microorganisms that are in the human body, or those expelled during expiration. At this point I think you are being deliberately obtuse and doing everything you can to avoid answering the question - because you know that you can’t give a rational reason for your opinion.
An entity is a living, self aware, thinking creature. A human is an entity, a demon is an entity, a very small number of legendary weapons have a personality and consciousness- and would be considered an entity. A red dragon fiery breath is as much an entity as the gas flame I cooked my diner on.
Entity (noun)
"A thing with distinct and independent existence."
It is a term often used to refer to discrete elements. It has nothing to do with creatures or intelligence. You will often find it used in programming and video game development.
The dragon's breath is an "entity" because it has a unique representation that separates it from everything else. Raindrops are typically non-entities because they are treated as a part of the larger weather phenomenon, but if singled out, it becomes an entity.
I guess this means you can also pour acid on the occupants. Boiling oil, boiling water. Actually dirt doesn't even count as an object so you could bury the people inside. Or just pee on them while you wait.
Dirt and fluids are objects, or many objects, if treated as such. Once a physical thing is isolated from the rest of the environment, it gains a new classification.
Are you seriously claiming that when I breath out my breath is a living, thinking, fully independent creature?
Ironically, you'll be spraying a number of fully independent creatures out with every breath. Your breath will carry all sorts of little organisms. Feels like an odd thing to get weirded out by, you have even more, billions of them, crawling throughout you. Your breath having independent creatures in it is pretty minor, all things considered.
I’m clearly not talking about the microorganisms that are in the human body, or those expelled during expiration. At this point I think you are being deliberately obtuse and doing everything you can to avoid answering the question - because you know that you can’t give a rational reason for your opinion.
No one claimed breathing was a "living, thinking, fully independent creature" the fact you've implied they have is all we need to know about who is doing what.
It wasn't even me you were responding to, so expecting me to defend "my" ideas that are actually someone else's? It might help if you paid closer attention to who is saying what.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If I urinate on the Hut......what part of the spell is not letting the pee in, is it because the pee is me?! a creature. or is it that the pee is an object? or because its splashing against the hut its environment? at what point does pee stop being a creature and start to become an object. especially when in full stream?
Also can I use Locate object to find dragons breath that burnt me? When water falls from the sky its environment but when I drink it its an object?
Just joking around with everything being said, I find it fascinating that people are trying to find logic in magic. This spell was not clearly figured out, buts its Fantasy.
Just having fun reading the arguments,, Its all about having fun with a story, the spell does what it needs to do. I turned my Hut issue into an environmental situation to get things adventurous, they stayed somewhere that caught fire, (in a big man made structure that doesn't seem like the best place for the hut) 1.) How is your sleeping going when you can see your surroundings on fire. destroying it all 2.) You leave your in the fire 3.) you wait your stuck in rubble. bottom of building, the building falls on you, in the attic, the bottom burns down.
I would say just be clear what does and doesn't make it safe when they cast it. So there not surprised when the dragon they never experienced in the 3 year campaign comes along to breath fire on a colorful dome on the ground.
There are many ways the Tiny Hut can be used to cheese in combat and provide a safe zone for especially ranged characters that step out, fire their attack, then step back into safety.
The fact that Tiny Hut can stop weapon swings and projectiles and magic and weather conditions but not breath weapons feels like an oversight in terms of consistency. The hut is meant as a safe-zone for camping/resting. To break the hut you need anti-magic like Dispel Magic or destructive magic that specifically deals with force fields - like Disintegrate. Now I don't know how many breath weapons are actually available at different CRs, but an argument could be made that Dragons are such high level and magical creatures that this is their way to deal with such force fields. This argument falls flat if low tier creatures that are common have access to breath weapons - which I don't believe is true.
There are many ways the Tiny Hut can be used to cheese in combat and provide a safe zone for especially ranged characters that step out, fire their attack, then step back into safety.
The fact that Tiny Hut can stop weapon swings and projectiles and magic and weather conditions but not breath weapons feels like an oversight in terms of consistency. The hut is meant as a safe-zone for camping/resting. To break the hut you need anti-magic like Dispel Magic or destructive magic that specifically deals with force fields - like Disintegrate. Now I don't know how many breath weapons are actually available at different CRs, but an argument could be made that Dragons are such high level and magical creatures that this is their way to deal with such force fields. This argument falls flat if low tier creatures that are common have access to breath weapons - which I don't believe is true.
Tiny Hut is objectively too powerful for its level. And a common assumption is it was the fault of whoever was copy/pasting spells from prior editions into 5e lingo just had a spasm that day.
Because it was never supposed to behave like it does in 5e. All it ever did was make your campground comfortable and block out bad weather effects. It ain't supposed to errect an impenetrable forcefield lol.
But once they printed that shit it was a little late to retcon something that big. It was just a survival aid. And if you got ambushed at night or whatever it gave you some obscurement from direct sight.
So I wouldn't over-analyze it from a design perspective on which effects they meant for it to block and which they didn't. They clearly messed all of that up pretty badly and just never fixed it, whether because they prefer this version or just refusing to admit their mistake.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Tiny Hut is objectively too powerful for its level. And a common assumption is it was the fault of whoever was copy/pasting spells from prior editions into 5e lingo just had a spasm that day.
Eh, I suspect someone just hated the concept of long rest interruptions and decided to back-channel remove them from the game.
Yeah, it feels like its just a very useful spell to have, especially with the ritual tag on it. On a related note I feel like there are too few ritual spells in the spell list but also that most of those we do have are absolutely worthwhile.
It's quite clear that the Tiny Hut's combat applications are completely unintentional. Instead of an impenetrable force field it should probably have been a camouflaged hideout with an outer shell - basically the same but the hut can be destroyed with conventional means and it's very difficult to locate. Thus a tracking unit could find the hut, but roaming creatures are very unlikely to stumble upon it.
Frankly the hut has been such a nice "peace of mind" spell that my lvl 13 Wizard has picked up Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, just to complete that Hotel-flavor of enjoying some quality food and sleep after a good day of adventuring - also our Cleric lost their deity's favor so no infinite food/water creation, so we're VERY water locked xD. Spending a lvl 7 slot on it seems ludicrous, but I wager I can find ways to make money from it and otherwise curry favor.
There are many ways the Tiny Hut can be used to cheese in combat
Considering it takes longer to cast than 99 percent of combats actually last, no, not really
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@Anton My word choice may have been poor as my meaning was not that it could easily be CAST in combat, but rather cast beforehand. If you know the encounter is upcoming - like you can see the enemy approaching you - 1 minute prep time is not a lot. If we consider the average walking speed is 30 ft. per 6 seconds, that's 300 feet (about 91 metres) for that minute, and double that if the enemy for some reason is charging at full speed.
If you can trigger the encounter even the 11 minutes casting time (with ritual casting) is easy - like if the enemy is sleeping, it's close to a monster nest, a siege or anything where you can sit undisturbed for the 11 minute cast time - possibly with the help of a friendly spellcaster to cast invisibility on you. It's not really something you can just whip out in combat, but there's definitely ways to use the hut for combat if you're a little clever and forward thinking.
@Anton My word choice may have been poor as my meaning was not that it could easily be CAST in combat, but rather cast beforehand. If you know the encounter is upcoming - like you can see the enemy approaching you - 1 minute prep time is not a lot. If we consider the average walking speed is 30 ft. per 6 seconds, that's 300 feet (about 91 metres) for that minute, and double that if the enemy for some reason is charging at full speed.
If you can trigger the encounter even the 11 minutes casting time (with ritual casting) is easy - like if the enemy is sleeping, it's close to a monster nest, a siege or anything where you can sit undisturbed for the 11 minute cast time - possibly with the help of a friendly spellcaster to cast invisibility on you. It's not really something you can just whip out in combat, but there's definitely ways to use the hut for combat if you're a little clever and forward thinking.
Sure, but even then, most of the ways to use it in combat can be pretty easily countered by giving the enemy even average intelligence or tactics. If the party members with ranged attacks are trying to use it for cover, the enemies with ranged attacks can simply hold their actions until the PCs pop out, that sort of thing
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Sure, but even then, most of the ways to use it in combat can be pretty easily countered by giving the enemy even average intelligence or tactics. If the party members with ranged attacks are trying to use it for cover, the enemies with ranged attacks can simply hold their actions until the PCs pop out, that sort of thing
As written the PCs don't need to pop out. Arrows that were in the hut when the spell was cast can pass through the wall of the hut without restriction (this applies in both directions, the enemy can in principle scavenge arrows you fire out and fire them back, but between effort of scavenging arrows in combat, and the hut being a one-way vision block so arrows fired back won't be very effective, this isn't really a viable tactic). The only actually viable options for dealing with a tiny hut are:
Don't engage.
Dispel it.
Use some fairly specialized exploits.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Right, there are a variety of camp protection spells out there, all of which are either straight up inferior, or substantially higher level and costing a spell slot. Thus, Tiny Hut is universally strong within its general role.
Last comment I am making on this topic.
Memnosyne, mind explaining how the following are 'pure energy', given they are not described as such? (all from the Monster Manual btw)
Gold Dragon - The dragon exhales gas in a 90-foot cone.
Silver Dragon - The dragon exhales paralyzing gas in a 90-foot cone.
Green Dragon - The dragon exhales poisonous gas in a 90-foot cone.
Copper Dragon - The dragon exhales gas in a 90-foot cone.
Brass Dragon - The dragon exhales sleep gas in a 90-foot cone.
Dragon Turtle - The dragon turtle exhales scalding steam in a 60-foot cone.
Again, just the Monster Manual. There is also a sandblasting type breath, and a spore breath, and likely more if we really go looking.
"Dragon Breath Weapons" do not get carte blanche against LTH. Not every breath weapon is an energy weapon.
In my previous posts, I was only referring to the core breath weapons of True Dragons. (I.e. Those that can be chosen when building a Dragonborn, with the exception of the Green dragon). Secondary breath weapons and uncommon breath weapons can certainly have different traits and interactions.
I could have been more clear, but didn't feel like it.
Many of the newer Gem Dragons would also fail this exercise.
Stop trying to use a 'comfortable camping' spell to protect you in combat against dragons of all things? Pretty simple solution imo.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I’m clearly not talking about the microorganisms that are in the human body, or those expelled during expiration. At this point I think you are being deliberately obtuse and doing everything you can to avoid answering the question - because you know that you can’t give a rational reason for your opinion.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-breath-weapon-go-through-leomunds-tiny-hut/
(I know I'm YEARS to late for this topic)
If I urinate on the Hut......what part of the spell is not letting the pee in, is it because the pee is me?! a creature. or is it that the pee is an object? or because its splashing against the hut its environment? at what point does pee stop being a creature and start to become an object. especially when in full stream?
Also can I use Locate object to find dragons breath that burnt me? When water falls from the sky its environment but when I drink it its an object?
Just joking around with everything being said, I find it fascinating that people are trying to find logic in magic. This spell was not clearly figured out, buts its Fantasy.
Just having fun reading the arguments,, Its all about having fun with a story, the spell does what it needs to do. I turned my Hut issue into an environmental situation to get things adventurous, they stayed somewhere that caught fire, (in a big man made structure that doesn't seem like the best place for the hut) 1.) How is your sleeping going when you can see your surroundings on fire. destroying it all 2.) You leave your in the fire 3.) you wait your stuck in rubble. bottom of building, the building falls on you, in the attic, the bottom burns down.
I would say just be clear what does and doesn't make it safe when they cast it. So there not surprised when the dragon they never experienced in the 3 year campaign comes along to breath fire on a colorful dome on the ground.
There are many ways the Tiny Hut can be used to cheese in combat and provide a safe zone for especially ranged characters that step out, fire their attack, then step back into safety.
The fact that Tiny Hut can stop weapon swings and projectiles and magic and weather conditions but not breath weapons feels like an oversight in terms of consistency. The hut is meant as a safe-zone for camping/resting. To break the hut you need anti-magic like Dispel Magic or destructive magic that specifically deals with force fields - like Disintegrate. Now I don't know how many breath weapons are actually available at different CRs, but an argument could be made that Dragons are such high level and magical creatures that this is their way to deal with such force fields. This argument falls flat if low tier creatures that are common have access to breath weapons - which I don't believe is true.
Tiny Hut is objectively too powerful for its level. And a common assumption is it was the fault of whoever was copy/pasting spells from prior editions into 5e lingo just had a spasm that day.
Because it was never supposed to behave like it does in 5e. All it ever did was make your campground comfortable and block out bad weather effects. It ain't supposed to errect an impenetrable forcefield lol.
But once they printed that shit it was a little late to retcon something that big. It was just a survival aid. And if you got ambushed at night or whatever it gave you some obscurement from direct sight.
So I wouldn't over-analyze it from a design perspective on which effects they meant for it to block and which they didn't. They clearly messed all of that up pretty badly and just never fixed it, whether because they prefer this version or just refusing to admit their mistake.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They had a lot of spasms.
Eh, I suspect someone just hated the concept of long rest interruptions and decided to back-channel remove them from the game.
Yeah, it feels like its just a very useful spell to have, especially with the ritual tag on it. On a related note I feel like there are too few ritual spells in the spell list but also that most of those we do have are absolutely worthwhile.
It's quite clear that the Tiny Hut's combat applications are completely unintentional. Instead of an impenetrable force field it should probably have been a camouflaged hideout with an outer shell - basically the same but the hut can be destroyed with conventional means and it's very difficult to locate. Thus a tracking unit could find the hut, but roaming creatures are very unlikely to stumble upon it.
Frankly the hut has been such a nice "peace of mind" spell that my lvl 13 Wizard has picked up Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, just to complete that Hotel-flavor of enjoying some quality food and sleep after a good day of adventuring - also our Cleric lost their deity's favor so no infinite food/water creation, so we're VERY water locked xD. Spending a lvl 7 slot on it seems ludicrous, but I wager I can find ways to make money from it and otherwise curry favor.
Considering it takes longer to cast than 99 percent of combats actually last, no, not really
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@Anton My word choice may have been poor as my meaning was not that it could easily be CAST in combat, but rather cast beforehand. If you know the encounter is upcoming - like you can see the enemy approaching you - 1 minute prep time is not a lot. If we consider the average walking speed is 30 ft. per 6 seconds, that's 300 feet (about 91 metres) for that minute, and double that if the enemy for some reason is charging at full speed.
If you can trigger the encounter even the 11 minutes casting time (with ritual casting) is easy - like if the enemy is sleeping, it's close to a monster nest, a siege or anything where you can sit undisturbed for the 11 minute cast time - possibly with the help of a friendly spellcaster to cast invisibility on you. It's not really something you can just whip out in combat, but there's definitely ways to use the hut for combat if you're a little clever and forward thinking.
Sure, but even then, most of the ways to use it in combat can be pretty easily countered by giving the enemy even average intelligence or tactics. If the party members with ranged attacks are trying to use it for cover, the enemies with ranged attacks can simply hold their actions until the PCs pop out, that sort of thing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As written the PCs don't need to pop out. Arrows that were in the hut when the spell was cast can pass through the wall of the hut without restriction (this applies in both directions, the enemy can in principle scavenge arrows you fire out and fire them back, but between effort of scavenging arrows in combat, and the hut being a one-way vision block so arrows fired back won't be very effective, this isn't really a viable tactic). The only actually viable options for dealing with a tiny hut are: