Jason Eau Clair @Nasagi · Jun 24, 2016 @JeremyECrawford Does Crossbow Expert allow you to use any 1-handed melee weapon, and still attack every turn with the hand crossbow?
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford Crossbow Expert: if the 3rd benefit limited the type of 1-handed weapon you could use, it'd say so. It doesn't. #DnD
Jeremy Crawford@JeremyECrawford The bonus action of Crossbow Expert allows all sorts of fun combos when you combine it with the Attack action: one crossbow firing twice, two crossbows, a crossbow and a dagger, a sling and a crossbow, a pistol and a crossbow, and so on. #DnD
You can't make an opportunity attack with a hand crossbow in general. Even though crossbow expert lets you make crossbow attacks in melee range without disadvantage, its still a ranged attack. Opportunity attacks have to be ranged attacks.
Unless you use your hand crossbow as an awkward improvised weapon.
Yea that was my whole point. If you allow a sword/hand-crossbow combo then you can do OA's with the sword. But if you only allow using the hand-crossbow (making two attacks) then you cannot really do OA's. So being that restrictive has balancing effects.
You can't make an opportunity attack with a hand crossbow in general. Even though crossbow expert lets you make crossbow attacks in melee range without disadvantage, its still a ranged attack. Opportunity attacks have to be ranged attacks.
Unless you use your hand crossbow as an awkward improvised weapon.
Yea that was my whole point. If you allow a sword/hand-crossbow combo then you can do OA's with the sword. But if you only allow using the hand-crossbow (making two attacks) then you cannot really do OA's. So being that restrictive has balancing effects.
That's a tradeoff you have with ranged weapons in general. You either pick something that can do harm at a distance, or something that can do opportunity attacks.
The sword/hand-crossbow combo would remove that tradeoff.
As long as I gave a player early notice of the ruling and allowed options to adjust the character build as desired, I hope that there wouldn't be a problem. Crossbow expert is a strong feat and I don't think that my take on it would make it weak.
I'd limit the viability of other weapon use to combined use with a loaded crossbow (probably in an early round of combat if it was/I allowed for the weapon to be preloaded^) or to using the hand-crossbow for all attacks. Two shots per round are pretty great for a character who's an expert with the crossbow. I think the feat would still have strength, just without the juggling.
I guess I just think it's boring to say that machine-gun crossbows are ok but dual-wielding isn't. But that's just an opinion, you are fine going in another direction.
What is a balance issue though is that you are basically giving your players a choice between using the feat or making opportunity attacks, that's a fairly harsh restriction to impose just because you don't like the visual of it. Sure some special cases of natural weapons races might still work (Tabaxi Rogue perhaps) but for most the 1+STR with very limited add-ons or special effects just isn't viable in the long run.
You can't make an opportunity attack with a hand crossbow in general. Even though crossbow expert lets you make crossbow attacks in melee range without disadvantage, its still a ranged attack. Opportunity attacks have to be ranged attacks.
Unless you use your hand crossbow as an awkward improvised weapon.
Even RAW, you could attack with a melee weapon every round and shoot the hand crossbow every other round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: draw rapier (object interaction), attack with rapier (action)
Round N+1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Big drawback here is that you don't get opportunity attacks for the rounds while your melee weapon is unequipped...
Or a worse version that risks losing your weapon but allows you to shoot the crossbow every round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: pick up rapier off the ground (object interaction), attack with rapier (action). drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
With this version you never get to do opportunity attacks, and you risk someone else picking up your melee weapon or being moved away from the melee weapon in between your turns.
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient. ...
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
I'd say you can use your sword and shoot with your loaded hand crossbow or load and shoot with your hand crossbow then reload and shoot again.
I was talking purely about what's possible in RAW.
What you described (shoot with a loaded hand crossbow) is not allowed in RAW, because loading is an inseparable part of the attack. You are always assumed to load your weapon right before you shoot it.
That’s not true. Crossbows can definitely be loaded well before they’re used to attack. That’s one of the benefits of a crossbow. A character with extra attack could make use of several crossbow attacks in a round so long as they’re already loaded.
heavy crossbow in hand, already loaded. Fires, drops, picks up the second already loaded one off the table with their interaction and fires. Admittedly couldn’t do that more than one round but it’s possible.
That’s not true. Crossbows can definitely be loaded well before they’re used to attack. That’s one of the benefits of a crossbow. A character with extra attack could make use of several crossbow attacks in a round so long as they’re already loaded.
heavy crossbow in hand, already loaded. Fires, drops, picks up the second already loaded one off the table with their interaction and fires. Admittedly couldn’t do that more than one round but it’s possible.
True, they can, but then you have to have rules about carrying loaded crossbows and bolts falling out and the stress of leaving a metal bow drawn for long periods of time and accidental firings and so on. Also, players would have to keep track of whether or not their crossbow is loaded (which leads to disagreements).
5E seems to try to get rid of fiddly rules like that.
If it were up to me, I'd make it simple by ruling that all crossbows are two-handed weapons and that they all take complete Actions to reload.
That’s not true. Crossbows can definitely be loaded well before they’re used to attack. That’s one of the benefits of a crossbow. A character with extra attack could make use of several crossbow attacks in a round so long as they’re already loaded.
heavy crossbow in hand, already loaded. Fires, drops, picks up the second already loaded one off the table with their interaction and fires. Admittedly couldn’t do that more than one round but it’s possible.
In DnD combat rules you can't. The Ammunition property says: "Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
If you are not talking about DnD combat rules but about what would be possible in real life:I'm not sure how reliable this would be for combination with melee combat. A bolt can easily fall out of a pre-loaded crossbow if not held straight, especially if we are talking about a mini hand-crossbow. Making a melee attack with one hand while simultaneously holding a pre-loaded hand crossbow in the other hand without losing the bolt sounds difficult. Picking them up off a table like you described is of course a different matter and would be fine.
That’s not true. Crossbows can definitely be loaded well before they’re used to attack. That’s one of the benefits of a crossbow. A character with extra attack could make use of several crossbow attacks in a round so long as they’re already loaded.
heavy crossbow in hand, already loaded. Fires, drops, picks up the second already loaded one off the table with their interaction and fires. Admittedly couldn’t do that more than one round but it’s possible.
In DnD combat rules you can't. The Ammunition property says: "Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
If you are not talking about DnD combat rules but about what would be possible in real life:I'm not sure how reliable this would be for combination with melee combat. A bolt can easily fall out of a pre-loaded crossbow if not held straight, especially if we are talking about a mini hand-crossbow. Making a melee attack with one hand while simultaneously holding a pre-loaded hand crossbow in the other hand without losing the bolt sounds difficult. Picking them up off a table like you described is of course a different matter and would be fine.
I'd rule that, short of pulling the trigger, you could previously have taken the attack action in any number of its other aspects.
To me, the issue is that we're looking at yet another example of poorly written WotC text but I wouldn't, for a turn, consider that they intended to say that you can't have preloaded weapons.
Sure, if a party had been jumped I'd be dubious as to whether a character might have a preloaded weapon but if, say, it was the characters planning the surprise, I wouldn't have a problem in saying that the weapon had already been loaded and ready to be shot.
... Ammunition. [also says that]. If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon (see "Improvised Weapons" later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.
If a crossbow might survive being used as an improvised weapon I think that it also might survive being kept loaded for 6 or 60 seconds.
Jason Eau Clair @Nasagi · Jun 24, 2016 @JeremyECrawford Does Crossbow Expert allow you to use any 1-handed melee weapon, and still attack every turn with the hand crossbow?
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford Crossbow Expert: if the 3rd benefit limited the type of 1-handed weapon you could use, it'd say so. It doesn't. #DnD
Jeremy Crawford@JeremyECrawford The bonus action of Crossbow Expert allows all sorts of fun combos when you combine it with the Attack action: one crossbow firing twice, two crossbows, a crossbow and a dagger, a sling and a crossbow, a pistol and a crossbow, and so on. #DnD
It's really limited in the specifics
My understanding was that you need a free hand to load an ammunition you draw as part of the attack, which you don't have if both hands are occupied by one-handed weapons or shields. Basically, the free hand required to load a weapon cannot be the same that holds it. While Crossbow Expert let you ignore the loading quality, it doesn't let you ignore the ammunition free hand requirement.
But Jeremy Crawford may suggest Crossbow Expert ignoring the "loading quality" refers both to the Loading property and the free hand to load it.
Afterall, there was an errata to Crossbow Expert (p. 165). The word “loaded” has been removed from the third benefit.
The best way to use crossbow expert is with a single hand crossbow and nothing in your offhand. You can make an attack action worth of attacks and a bonus action as well. It synergies with sharpshooter well, and post sage advice is easy to understand.
The loss of a melee weapon for opportunity attacks has always been a potential trade off for ranged characters. A player could always pick up a Monk level or the feat to do higher unarmed damage if that is a major concern, but it likely is not. Ranged characters tend to hang back so they are less likely to be engaged in melee, in any case.
That seems to be an armoured, possibly elven (according to Google) female who has both sword and crossbow to hand and, yeah, maybe this was something that they were working toward, that or the two crossbow totting warrior or the rapid-fire shooter. They may have had any of them in mind.
If a player wanted to wield a rapier and hand crossbow and took the feat instead of an ASI, I would have no problem as a DM ignoring the ammunition property for their character and letting them have at, especially if it fits with their character's image of a swashbuckling fighter, pirate and/or rogue type. It is such a minor thing at that point to increase the Players' fun factor.
If a player wanted to wield a rapier and hand crossbow and took the feat instead of an ASI, I would have no problem as a DM ignoring the ammunition property for their character and letting them have at, especially if it fits with their character's image of a swashbuckling fighter, pirate and/or rogue type. It is such a minor thing at that point to increase the Players' fun factor.
Fun is rule number 1, yes. And if its powerful, then the DM gets to play with stronger monsters, and a wider variety, or even up the stats on weaker monsters.
I think that it's fair to say that different people may find fun in the game in different ways and that one person's rule hand wave could be another person's fudging.
Some people may find fun in the game with the challenge of coping within the context of RAW and even of takes of physical realities.
My understanding was that you need a free hand to load an ammunition you draw as part of the attack, which you don't have if both hands are occupied by one-handed weapons or shields. Basically, the free hand required to load a weapon cannot be the same that holds it. While Crossbow Expert let you ignore the loading quality, it doesn't let you ignore the ammunition free hand requirement.
But Jeremy Crawford may suggest Crossbow Expert ignoring the "loading quality" refers both to the Loading property and the free hand to load it.
Afterall, there was an errata to Crossbow Expert (p. 165). The word “loaded” has been removed from the third benefit.
Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon?
The short answer is no.
The first benefit of the feat lets you ignore the loading property of the hand crossbow if you’re proficient with that weapon. The upshot is that you can fire it more than once if you have a feature like Extra Attack. You’re still limited, however, by the fact that the weapon has the ammunition property. The latter property requires you to have a bolt to fire from the hand crossbow, and the hand crossbow isn’t going to load itself (unless it’s magical or a gnomish invention). You need to load each bolt into the weapon, and doing so requires a hand.
To dig deeper into this point, take a look at the following sentence in the definition of the ammunition property: “Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack.” The sentence tells us two important things. First, you’re assumed to be drawing—that is, extracting with your hand—the ammunition from a container. Second, the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn.
What does that all mean for a hand crossbow? It means Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot.
Here's a further curious take.
It's really limited in the specifics
Apparently juggling is in.
Yea that was my whole point. If you allow a sword/hand-crossbow combo then you can do OA's with the sword. But if you only allow using the hand-crossbow (making two attacks) then you cannot really do OA's. So being that restrictive has balancing effects.
That's a tradeoff you have with ranged weapons in general. You either pick something that can do harm at a distance, or something that can do opportunity attacks.
The sword/hand-crossbow combo would remove that tradeoff.
Do you mean Melee attacks?
yup, I meant melee
That’s not true. Crossbows can definitely be loaded well before they’re used to attack. That’s one of the benefits of a crossbow. A character with extra attack could make use of several crossbow attacks in a round so long as they’re already loaded.
heavy crossbow in hand, already loaded. Fires, drops, picks up the second already loaded one off the table with their interaction and fires. Admittedly couldn’t do that more than one round but it’s possible.
True, they can, but then you have to have rules about carrying loaded crossbows and bolts falling out and the stress of leaving a metal bow drawn for long periods of time and accidental firings and so on. Also, players would have to keep track of whether or not their crossbow is loaded (which leads to disagreements).
5E seems to try to get rid of fiddly rules like that.
If it were up to me, I'd make it simple by ruling that all crossbows are two-handed weapons and that they all take complete Actions to reload.
In DnD combat rules you can't. The Ammunition property says: "Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
If you are not talking about DnD combat rules but about what would be possible in real life:I'm not sure how reliable this would be for combination with melee combat. A bolt can easily fall out of a pre-loaded crossbow if not held straight, especially if we are talking about a mini hand-crossbow. Making a melee attack with one hand while simultaneously holding a pre-loaded hand crossbow in the other hand without losing the bolt sounds difficult. Picking them up off a table like you described is of course a different matter and would be fine.
I'd rule that, short of pulling the trigger, you could previously have taken the attack action in any number of its other aspects.
To me, the issue is that we're looking at yet another example of poorly written WotC text but I wouldn't, for a turn, consider that they intended to say that you can't have preloaded weapons.
Sure, if a party had been jumped I'd be dubious as to whether a character might have a preloaded weapon but if, say, it was the characters planning the surprise, I wouldn't have a problem in saying that the weapon had already been loaded and ready to be shot.
What's the worst that could happen?
If a crossbow might survive being used as an improvised weapon I think that it also might survive being kept loaded for 6 or 60 seconds.
My understanding was that you need a free hand to load an ammunition you draw as part of the attack, which you don't have if both hands are occupied by one-handed weapons or shields. Basically, the free hand required to load a weapon cannot be the same that holds it. While Crossbow Expert let you ignore the loading quality, it doesn't let you ignore the ammunition free hand requirement.
But Jeremy Crawford may suggest Crossbow Expert ignoring the "loading quality" refers both to the Loading property and the free hand to load it.
Afterall, there was an errata to Crossbow Expert (p. 165). The word “loaded” has been removed from the third benefit.
The best way to use crossbow expert is with a single hand crossbow and nothing in your offhand. You can make an attack action worth of attacks and a bonus action as well. It synergies with sharpshooter well, and post sage advice is easy to understand.
The loss of a melee weapon for opportunity attacks has always been a potential trade off for ranged characters. A player could always pick up a Monk level or the feat to do higher unarmed damage if that is a major concern, but it likely is not. Ranged characters tend to hang back so they are less likely to be engaged in melee, in any case.
This seems to be one of the goals of Crossbow Expert
That seems to be an armoured, possibly elven (according to Google) female who has both sword and crossbow to hand and, yeah, maybe this was something that they were working toward, that or the two crossbow totting warrior or the rapid-fire shooter. They may have had any of them in mind.
If a player wanted to wield a rapier and hand crossbow and took the feat instead of an ASI, I would have no problem as a DM ignoring the ammunition property for their character and letting them have at, especially if it fits with their character's image of a swashbuckling fighter, pirate and/or rogue type. It is such a minor thing at that point to increase the Players' fun factor.
Fun is rule number 1, yes. And if its powerful, then the DM gets to play with stronger monsters, and a wider variety, or even up the stats on weaker monsters.
I think that it's fair to say that different people may find fun in the game in different ways and that one person's rule hand wave could be another person's fudging.
Some people may find fun in the game with the challenge of coping within the context of RAW and even of takes of physical realities.
Nah that's just JC freestyling it on twitter, they covered this in the SAC and the free hand is clearly needed.
Ha that's what i thought thank you for the clarification !