They're disintegrated, leaving behind anything they were wearing or carrying, because that's what Incinerating Beam says happens.
The entire process is like this: 50 damage reduces the polymorphed form to 0 hit points, which pops the warlock back to their normal form; the remaining 10 damage drops the warlock to 0 hit points, which triggers Incinerating Beam's rider. Gift of the Protectors isn't relevant, because the warlock is killed outright.
Did the warlock concentrate on true polymorph for the full 1 hour duration?
If so the new form becomes permanent until dispelled.
And the new form has Return to Worms feature.
So, no, in that case the warlock reforms into the Star Spawn Larva Mage 24 hours later as reducing his 50 hp to 0 triggers his ability.
Like Gift of the Protectors, Return to Worms is not relevant because of Incinerating Beam. Return to Worms only functions "unless the swarm is destroyed." Disintegration is destruction.
[EDIT] You know what, there is actually some ambiguity there, as far as the RAW goes. I'd be interested in a SAC answer.
They're disintegrated, leaving behind anything they were wearing or carrying, because that's what Incinerating Beam says happens.
The entire process is like this: 50 damage reduces the polymorphed form to 0 hit points, which pops the warlock back to their normal form; the remaining 10 damage drops the warlock to 0 hit points, which triggers Incinerating Beam's rider. Gift of the Protectors isn't relevant, because the warlock is killed outright.
I've dug into the SAC here; and my assessment does not agree with the SAC. But, I think the SAC is wrong (whoah, what a surprise). The SAC says that Relentless Endurance can save a half-orc from Disintegrate, but it includes the same "but not killed outright" language that Gift of the Protectors does. Disintegrate absolutely does kill creatures outright, which is why I say the SAC is wrong. But it is official guidance. With that in mind, the SAC answer would be that Gift of the Protectors kicks in and does its thing.
I do not play D&D in english and I don't know what RAW and SAC are. :(
They are just abbreviations used in this forum.
RAW: Rules-as-Written, meaning the exact "legally pure" written rules in the books, not allowing for any creative interpretations. This is to contrast with Rules-as-Intended (RAI) where the legalese rules are tempered by trying to work out what the game designers meant the rules to actually be, or Rules-as-Fun where you develop your own interpretations of the rules for your games to maximise the fun for all involved.
SAC: The Sage Advice Compendium. A compilation of questions and answers from the designers, hopefully useful to clarify how some more complex rules interact. You can access that from this site via the menu Sources > Sage Advice.
They're disintegrated, leaving behind anything they were wearing or carrying, because that's what Incinerating Beam says happens.
The entire process is like this: 50 damage reduces the polymorphed form to 0 hit points, which pops the warlock back to their normal form; the remaining 10 damage drops the warlock to 0 hit points, which triggers Incinerating Beam's rider. Gift of the Protectors isn't relevant, because the warlock is killed outright.
I've dug into the SAC here; and my assessment does not agree with the SAC. But, I think the SAC is wrong (whoah, what a surprise). The SAC says that Relentless Endurance can save a half-orc from Disintegrate, but it includes the same "but not killed outright" language that Gift of the Protectors does. Disintegrate absolutely does kill creatures outright, which is why I say the SAC is wrong. But it is official guidance. With that in mind, the SAC answer would be that Gift of the Protectors kicks in and does its thing.
I think the intention of Gift of the Protectors and the Half-Orc feature is that it can prevent a creature reaching 0 HP, and could therefore prevent any insta-kill which would trigger with a sort of "if this effect reduces a creature to zero HP" text. When those features talk of "killed outright" they are probably trying to refer only to the massive damage that reduces you to 0 and then has enough damage remaining to beat your maximum HP - and to the causes of death that override current HP entirely like Power Word Kill.
With that in mind, the end result of the original situation would be a Larva Mage with 1 HP.
If that Mage were hit with a second beam, then I agree it would be killed (destroying or bypassing the insect swarms) and the Warlock would reappear with their 10 HP which would immediately be destroyed and disintegrated.
The SAC isn't relevant because it refers to the Disintegrate spell which works differently than the Incinerating Beam.
The disintegrate spell says "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points."
Incinerating Beam: "A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam is disintegrated,"
Thigs like True Poly, Gift of Protectors and the like prevent you being "left" with 0 hit points, because on being reduced with 0 hit points and not killed out right, they trigger and bring you to 1 HP.
However, Incinerating Beam's instantly killing you is triggering on reducing you to 0 hit points, so you when you drop to 0 hp, you are immediately killed outright, thus preventing the true poly/gift/etc protections. Even the large mage's return to worms effect won't save you, because you're still disintegrated into dust regardless. Your body can't break down into worms if you no longer have a body.
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The rules do not provide a hard-and-fast broad rule for when/if things appear to happen at the same time.
In the case of the True Polymorph NOT being made permanent (in other words, if the caster had not yet had the chance to concentrate on it for an hour), there are four things that can trigger, all having the same timing (which is obviously what you're pointing out). After the Star Spawn Larva Mage would take 50 damage and be reduced to 0 hp:
1. Return to Worms ability could trigger. So, the insect swarm would take no carryover damage (the 10 remaining damage of the incinerating beam are negated) and then slither away.
2. Gift of the Protectors also could trigger. That would also remove the chance for Return to Worms.
3. The spell could be ended, and the damage transfers to the polymorphed warlock's true form (allowing #2 and #4 to trigger)
4. The colossus' incinerating beam could trigger disintegration
Following the logic of the Sage Advice on (the half-orc) relentless endurance, this would suggest the intent of abilities like #1 and #2 is that they occur BEFORE the disintegration. It's worded: " The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you." But this is really not written into the rules (just guidance after the fact).
So, yeah, I suspect the DM in this case just makes a judgment call on what's most fun. Good luck!
The SAC isn't relevant because it refers to the Disintegrate spell which works differently than the Incinerating Beam.
The disintegrate spell says "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points."
Incinerating Beam: "A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam is disintegrated,"
Thigs like True Poly, Gift of Protectors and the like prevent you being "left" with 0 hit points, because on being reduced with 0 hit points and not killed out right, they trigger and bring you to 1 HP.
However, Incinerating Beam's instantly killing you is triggering on reducing you to 0 hit points, so you when you drop to 0 hp, you are immediately killed outright, thus preventing the true poly/gift/etc protections. Even the large mage's return to worms effect won't save you, because you're still disintegrated into dust regardless. Your body can't break down into worms if you no longer have a body.
Oh, that's an interesting difference on the wording of the beam!
It's still a "tie" with the Return to Worms ability. "When the larva mage is reduced to 0 hit points, it breaks apart into a swarm of insects in the same space."
The larva mage has that ability because its body is a mass of insects - it's an alien consciousness inhabiting bugs and using them like a body. When you do damage it loses the ability to maintain the bugs as a body, hence it breaking down into a swarm, and eventually it recovers enough to gather them back up into a body.
The disintegration destroys that body and the bugs. Can't become a swarm if the bugs are now just dust.
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Did miss that and would agree it would save you. But, out of everything, that is the only one that does, in my eyes. And it is limited to once in 1d4 long rests.
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Not sure how this would apply but I read somewhere that if 2 or more effects occur at the beginning or end of a turn the target of the effects gets to choose which would occur 1st.
If you extrapolate from the above that 2 or more things would trigger when reduced to 0 hp perhaps the target of those effects would get to choose which occurred 1st.
If the body turns into many worms, wouldn't only 1 of the worms get disintegrated... unless it can target dozens of targets at once?
That's actually a good point about simultaneous effects, but it's not the target of the effect; it's player of the creature whose turn it is. Thus, it's the warforged colossus that would get to decide, and I bet it would opt to disintegrate before the worms kick in.
If the body turns into many worms, wouldn't only 1 of the worms get disintegrated... unless it can target dozens of targets at once?
It gets turned into a swarm, not into many worms, which is a single creature.
In any case, how I read this is: the first 50 damage reduce HP to zero. At this point you have to resolve three effects that occur at 0 hp
Return to Worms turns the Larva Mage into a Swarm of Insects. Presumably with non-zero hit points.
True Polymorph is dispelled because HP are reduced to zero. This causes HP to be 10.
Incinerating Beam disintegrates targets reduced to 0 hp.
According to Simultaneous Effects, the controlling character decides on the order of effects. As all three of those options invalidate the other two, the target basically gets to choose the one they like best. Which is presumably (1) (and, since the Return to Worms trait doesn't mention overflow damage, the other 10 hp of damage just disappear).
If the body turns into many worms, wouldn't only 1 of the worms get disintegrated... unless it can target dozens of targets at once?
It gets turned into a swarm, not into many worms, which is a single creature.
In any case, how I read this is: the first 50 damage reduce HP to zero. At this point you have to resolve three effects that occur at 0 hp
Return to Worms turns the Larva Mage into a Swarm of Insects. Presumably with non-zero hit points.
True Polymorph is dispelled because HP are reduced to zero. This causes HP to be 10.
Incinerating Beam disintegrates targets reduced to 0 hp.
According to Simultaneous Effects, the controlling character decides on the order of effects. As all three of those options invalidate the other two, the target basically gets to choose the one they like best. Which is presumably (1) (and, since the Return to Worms trait doesn't mention overflow damage, the other 10 hp of damage just disappear).
Again, it’s not the target that gets to choose the one they like best. It’s the colossus.
Again, it’s not the target that gets to choose the one they like best. It’s the colossus.
Huh. Yeah, it's the character whose turn it is (which could in principle be neither one, if something granted the colossus a reaction attack), not the affected character. Which is somewhat odd. Of course, in their example the acting character and the affected character are the same. In practice I think it works better for it to be the affected character.
I interpret that the Warforge Colossus's incinerate beam, disintegrate is in first place in the sequence of actions on view of it being integral in the initial action as concurrent aspects of the same action.
Incinerating Beam (Recharge 5–6). The colossus fires a beam of light in a 150-foot line that is 10 feet wide. Each creature in the line must make a DC 26 Dexterity saving throw, taking 60 (11d10) radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam isdisintegrated, leaving behind anything it was wearing or carrying.
Other still simultaneous actions can still be considered to be responses.
Prerequisite: 9th-level warlock, Pact of the Tome feature ... Whenany creature whose name is on the page is reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, the creature magically drops to 1 hit point instead. Once this magic is triggered, no creature can benefit from it until you finish a long rest. ...
There's a condition that is applied but a replacement response condition kicks in instead.
Return to Worms.Whenthe larva mage is reduced to 0 hit points, it breaks apart into a swarm of insects in the same space. Unless the swarm is destroyed, the larva mage reforms from it 24 hours later.
I'd say that there'd be nothing left to break apart. "A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam isdisintegrated" and, by the interpretation applied, no response is possible.
Not sure how this would apply but I read somewhere that if 2 or more effects occur at the beginning or end of a turn the target of the effects gets to choose which would occur 1st.
If you extrapolate from the above that 2 or more things would trigger when reduced to 0 hp perhaps the target of those effects would get to choose which occurred 1st.
If the body turns into many worms, wouldn't only 1 of the worms get disintegrated... unless it can target dozens of targets at once?
That's actually a good point about simultaneous effects, but it's not the target of the effect; it's player of the creature whose turn it is. Thus, it's the warforged colossus that would get to decide, and I bet it would opt to disintegrate before the worms kick in.
I really hoped for a longer essay on the topic :D
But I got to admit. This is the best argumentation so far.
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Only the ultimate rules lawyer can solve this riddle.
A level 17 Warlock (The Undead), who used the Gift of the Protectors Invocation on himself has 10 hp left. He uses the spell True Polymorph on himself and choses the form of a Star Spawn Larva Mage. He has 50 hp left in his new form. After 1 hour, a Warforged Colossus hits the Warlock with his Incenrating Beam, dealing 60 points of damage.
What happens and why?
They're disintegrated, leaving behind anything they were wearing or carrying, because that's what Incinerating Beam says happens.
The entire process is like this: 50 damage reduces the polymorphed form to 0 hit points, which pops the warlock back to their normal form; the remaining 10 damage drops the warlock to 0 hit points, which triggers Incinerating Beam's rider. Gift of the Protectors isn't relevant, because the warlock is killed outright.
Like Gift of the Protectors, Return to Worms is not relevant because of Incinerating Beam. Return to Worms only functions "unless the swarm is destroyed." Disintegration is destruction.
[EDIT] You know what, there is actually some ambiguity there, as far as the RAW goes. I'd be interested in a SAC answer.
I've dug into the SAC here; and my assessment does not agree with the SAC. But, I think the SAC is wrong (whoah, what a surprise). The SAC says that Relentless Endurance can save a half-orc from Disintegrate, but it includes the same "but not killed outright" language that Gift of the Protectors does. Disintegrate absolutely does kill creatures outright, which is why I say the SAC is wrong. But it is official guidance. With that in mind, the SAC answer would be that Gift of the Protectors kicks in and does its thing.
I do not play D&D in english and I don't know what RAW and SAC are. :(
RAW -> Rules As Written
SAC -> Sage Advice Compendium
They are just abbreviations used in this forum.
RAW: Rules-as-Written, meaning the exact "legally pure" written rules in the books, not allowing for any creative interpretations. This is to contrast with Rules-as-Intended (RAI) where the legalese rules are tempered by trying to work out what the game designers meant the rules to actually be, or Rules-as-Fun where you develop your own interpretations of the rules for your games to maximise the fun for all involved.
SAC: The Sage Advice Compendium. A compilation of questions and answers from the designers, hopefully useful to clarify how some more complex rules interact. You can access that from this site via the menu Sources > Sage Advice.
I think the intention of Gift of the Protectors and the Half-Orc feature is that it can prevent a creature reaching 0 HP, and could therefore prevent any insta-kill which would trigger with a sort of "if this effect reduces a creature to zero HP" text. When those features talk of "killed outright" they are probably trying to refer only to the massive damage that reduces you to 0 and then has enough damage remaining to beat your maximum HP - and to the causes of death that override current HP entirely like Power Word Kill.
With that in mind, the end result of the original situation would be a Larva Mage with 1 HP.
If that Mage were hit with a second beam, then I agree it would be killed (destroying or bypassing the insect swarms) and the Warlock would reappear with their 10 HP which would immediately be destroyed and disintegrated.
The SAC isn't relevant because it refers to the Disintegrate spell which works differently than the Incinerating Beam.
The disintegrate spell says "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points."
Incinerating Beam: "A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam is disintegrated,"
Thigs like True Poly, Gift of Protectors and the like prevent you being "left" with 0 hit points, because on being reduced with 0 hit points and not killed out right, they trigger and bring you to 1 HP.
However, Incinerating Beam's instantly killing you is triggering on reducing you to 0 hit points, so you when you drop to 0 hp, you are immediately killed outright, thus preventing the true poly/gift/etc protections. Even the large mage's return to worms effect won't save you, because you're still disintegrated into dust regardless. Your body can't break down into worms if you no longer have a body.
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The rules do not provide a hard-and-fast broad rule for when/if things appear to happen at the same time.
In the case of the True Polymorph NOT being made permanent (in other words, if the caster had not yet had the chance to concentrate on it for an hour), there are four things that can trigger, all having the same timing (which is obviously what you're pointing out). After the Star Spawn Larva Mage would take 50 damage and be reduced to 0 hp:
1. Return to Worms ability could trigger. So, the insect swarm would take no carryover damage (the 10 remaining damage of the incinerating beam are negated) and then slither away.
2. Gift of the Protectors also could trigger. That would also remove the chance for Return to Worms.
3. The spell could be ended, and the damage transfers to the polymorphed warlock's true form (allowing #2 and #4 to trigger)
4. The colossus' incinerating beam could trigger disintegration
Following the logic of the Sage Advice on (the half-orc) relentless endurance, this would suggest the intent of abilities like #1 and #2 is that they occur BEFORE the disintegration. It's worded: " The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you." But this is really not written into the rules (just guidance after the fact).
So, yeah, I suspect the DM in this case just makes a judgment call on what's most fun. Good luck!
Oh, that's an interesting difference on the wording of the beam!
It's still a "tie" with the Return to Worms ability. "When the larva mage is reduced to 0 hit points, it breaks apart into a swarm of insects in the same space."
I'd go with the RAI of that.
The larva mage has that ability because its body is a mass of insects - it's an alien consciousness inhabiting bugs and using them like a body. When you do damage it loses the ability to maintain the bugs as a body, hence it breaking down into a swarm, and eventually it recovers enough to gather them back up into a body.
The disintegration destroys that body and the bugs. Can't become a swarm if the bugs are now just dust.
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Are you guys taking Necrotic Husk into account?
Did miss that and would agree it would save you. But, out of everything, that is the only one that does, in my eyes. And it is limited to once in 1d4 long rests.
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That's actually a good point about simultaneous effects, but it's not the target of the effect; it's player of the creature whose turn it is. Thus, it's the warforged colossus that would get to decide, and I bet it would opt to disintegrate before the worms kick in.
It gets turned into a swarm, not into many worms, which is a single creature.
In any case, how I read this is: the first 50 damage reduce HP to zero. At this point you have to resolve three effects that occur at 0 hp
According to Simultaneous Effects, the controlling character decides on the order of effects. As all three of those options invalidate the other two, the target basically gets to choose the one they like best. Which is presumably (1) (and, since the Return to Worms trait doesn't mention overflow damage, the other 10 hp of damage just disappear).
Again, it’s not the target that gets to choose the one they like best. It’s the colossus.
Huh. Yeah, it's the character whose turn it is (which could in principle be neither one, if something granted the colossus a reaction attack), not the affected character. Which is somewhat odd. Of course, in their example the acting character and the affected character are the same. In practice I think it works better for it to be the affected character.
I interpret that the Warforge Colossus's incinerate beam, disintegrate is in first place in the sequence of actions on view of it being integral in the initial action as concurrent aspects of the same action.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/warforged-colossus
Other still simultaneous actions can still be considered to be responses.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock#EldritchInvocations-388
There's a condition that is applied but a replacement response condition kicks in instead.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/star-spawn-larva-mage
I'd say that there'd be nothing left to break apart. "A creature reduced to 0 hit points by this beam is disintegrated" and, by the interpretation applied, no response is possible.
I really hoped for a longer essay on the topic :D
But I got to admit. This is the best argumentation so far.