Undetectable? No. Just not yet detected. No one said an invisible creature is undetectable. Just un-seeable. If you wanna try to detect them, take the Search action. You can find rules for this action in Chapter 9: Combat. This is exactly the sort of thing it is for. Trying to find something hard to find, mid combat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Given that some creatures like wolf have Keen Senses it stands to reason that some creatures can detect you by your smell even if they can't see or hear you.
This makes sense. When you are hidden (unseen and unheard) then these creatures have an edge when they attempt to search for you, and they might have +5 on their passive perception, depending on the circumstances.
There are millions of creatures in the game world whose location is unknown to you and who aren't actively hiding. The DM tells you when you detect something, you don't automatically know the location of all non-hiding creatures in existence.
You know the location of all non-hiding creatures in the same combat as you. Those millions of creatures aren't involved.
If the DM wants to play that you know the location of invisible, but unhidden creatures, RAW provides for that. It also leaves plenty of ambiguity so that if the DM wants to play it otherwise, it fits within the framework of the rules as written to do so as well.
There are millions of creatures in the game world whose location is unknown to you and who aren't actively hiding. The DM tells you when you detect something, you don't automatically know the location of all non-hiding creatures in existence.
You know the location of all non-hiding creatures in the same combat as you. Those millions of creatures aren't involved.
I'm not so sure there are any rules that says that, though. I don't know, maybe you can share a quote about it that support this view?
I do know that your line of reasoning leads to xray vision, unfortunately. Because, if you automatically know the location of all creatures then seemingly you can see them through walls? Seems a bit like this sort of ruling leads to wildly unexpected results. I'm relatively confident that isn't what is supposed to be happening, that xray vision isn't a default sense.
Similarly, being able to magically detect the exact location of something invisible doesn't really seem like a default sense either.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not so sure there are any rules that says that, though. I don't know, maybe you can share a quote about it that support this view?
The surprise rules say "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." In addition, the rules for unseen attackers and targets specify that "guessing the target's location" only occurs if you can neither see nor hear the target, and that attacking reveals your location. So, when you enter combat, you automatically detect every opponent who is not hiding, and since guessing at location only occurs when you have not detected the target with any sense, you know where they are.
Is this realistic? Not terribly, but my impression is that the authors looked at the rules for invisibility in combat from prior editions, went "that is ridiculously annoying", and hit it with a giant nerf bat.
I'm not so sure there are any rules that says that, though. I don't know, maybe you can share a quote about it that support this view?
The surprise rules say "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." In addition, the rules for unseen attackers and targets specify that "guessing the target's location" only occurs if you can neither see nor hear the target, and that attacking reveals your location. So, when you enter combat, you automatically detect every opponent who is not hiding, and since guessing at location only occurs when you have not detected the target with any sense, you know where they are.
Is this realistic? Not terribly, but my impression is that the authors looked at the rules for invisibility in combat from prior editions, went "that is ridiculously annoying", and hit it with a giant nerf bat.
This. The designers streamlined a lot of rules, some are not very realistic, some are better than others. But the wording for invisible creatures doesn’t say you don’t know where they are. So by RAW you basically know what 5’ square they are in and you have disadvantage to hit them. However, if they hide successfully then you do not know where they are so you can guess their location and attack. If you attack the wrong square nothing happens.
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense. For the Purpose of Hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s Location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
BOOTS OF ELVENKIND
While you wear these boots, your steps make no sound, regardless of the surface you are moving across. You also have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks that rely on moving silently.
So I know that combat mechanic-wise, Both invisibility and the boots "Give adv. on stealth". And TECHNICALLY a creature that is invisible's position isn't completely unknown due to the "detected by noise and tracks" caveat on the invisible condition, hence attacks can target an invisible creature and invisibility isn't an automatic invulnerability. I get all this.
However, the boots, while also redundantly giving adv. on stealth, have the additional "steps make no sound" which the invisible condition specifically stated was the ONLY (other than tracks made) way that other creatures could use to know the location.
So together, Invisibility (no sight) and Boots (no sound) in an indoor scenario (no tracks) shouldn't even warrant a stealth check in my opinion (not considering blind/truesight). Before anyone says anything: No, I am not a player trying to get away with this, I am a DM who just wants a clear interpretation. At the moment, I am FOR letting a player use this combo since if they've decked themselves out for espionage, might as well let them.
If you're the DM then your question ties back into questions you're responsible for answering, like how you want invisibility to work. Boots of Elvenkind generally only provide Advantage under very permissive DMs, because almost no Stealth relies on moving silently - usually it relies on not being seen, and moving silently is just helpful. But you're the DM! It works how you say it does.
Same thing for invisibility. The exact mechanics of invisibility are up to you, and hence so are the boots. I'm sure you have a house-rule in place for handling how people detect invisible creatures. I'd encourage you to have your Boots of Elvenkind interact with that system as you deem appropriate. After all, you decided to let your players have the item. I assume you want it to do something.
The Devs have said multiple times on Twitter, Sage Advice and DragonTalk Podcast that your location is known when invisible and that hiding is the by-the-book way to conceal your location. This is supported by the Invisible, Perception, Hiding and the Surprise rules as well. Anyone is free to disagree and can always rule otherwise but must acknowledge it.
With that in mind, the Boots of Elvenkind are not useful to become hidden, only to move silently and thus very limited. If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - moving is usually silent. If you are not hidden, moving silently won't help you go unoticed if your location can be detected already, all it will do is not hear you move.
TWITTER:
@quadhund But is the invisible person considered hidden as a result of casting invisibility?
@JeremyECrawford Invisible = unseen. Hidden = unseen and unheard.
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
DRAGONTALK PODCAST:
Jeremy Crawford: When you're in invisible it doesn't mean your silent. If you really want to make sure people don't know where you are, you need to hide, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and you're hoping that they are not only not gonna notice any visual traces of where you are but they are not gonna hear you
SAGE ADVICE COMPENDIUM:
If I’m invisible and I become visible when I shoot an arrow at a target, does hiding again require an action? Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
RULES;
Hiding: When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature
Invisible: The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score...
I'm not so sure there are any rules that says that, though. I don't know, maybe you can share a quote about it that support this view?
The surprise rules say "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." In addition, the rules for unseen attackers and targets specify that "guessing the target's location" only occurs if you can neither see nor hear the target, and that attacking reveals your location. So, when you enter combat, you automatically detect every opponent who is not hiding, and since guessing at location only occurs when you have not detected the target with any sense, you know where they are.
Is this realistic? Not terribly, but my impression is that the authors looked at the rules for invisibility in combat from prior editions, went "that is ridiculously annoying", and hit it with a giant nerf bat.
The VERY first sentence of that unseen attackers rules should tell you that being invisible is one of the default ways to go unnoticed when it says in black and white:
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
^ is all the proof you need to know you can escape being noticed, not only by hiding, but also by being in darkness or by being invisible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The Devs have said multiple times on Twitter, Sage Advice and DragonTalk Podcast that your location is known when invisible and that hiding is the by-the-book way to conceal your location. This is supported by the Invisible, Perception, Hiding and the Surprise rules as well. Anyone is free to disagree and can always rule otherwise but must acknowledge it.
The quotes you have provided do not support your conclusion. They support mine. The DM determines if your location is known to others, it is not automatic.
TWITTER:
@quadhund But is the invisible person considered hidden as a result of casting invisibility?
@JeremyECrawford Invisible = unseen. Hidden = unseen and unheard.
This is true. Being hidden means you're unseen and unheard. it also means you're un-smelled and un-felt. Being hidden means you're in a place where you could potentially be detected but because of your skills at avoiding detection, haven't been. Invisibility just means invisible. You may or may not even be trying to hide. You may or may not be making noise. Invisibility, itself, speaks nothing to that. That's why the DM determines if your location is revealed or not.
But it certainly isn't automatic.
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
This just directly confirms my take: The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
You still make as much noise while invisible as not invisible. if that is enough noise to reveal your position, the DM will say so.
DRAGONTALK PODCAST:
Jeremy Crawford: When you're in invisible it doesn't mean your silent. If you really want to make sure people don't know where you are, you need to hide, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and you're hoping that they are not only not gonna notice any visual traces of where you are but they are not gonna hear you
Being invisible is not a guarantee of being silent. But it doesn't make other people super-sonic-echo-location experts either. You may, or may not, be detected by the noise you make while invisible, the DM will determine this. If you did wanna be sure you don't get detected, you'd hide as well as be invisible, for sure that'll increase the likelihood of going undetected. That takes it from a DMs subjective call to a roll of the dice ability check to guarantee.
SAGE ADVICE COMPENDIUM:
If I’m invisible and I become visible when I shoot an arrow at a target, does hiding again require an action? Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
RULES;
Hiding: When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature
Invisible: The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score...
People don't have echolocation. That don't automatically identify the location of invisible creature or objects. The DM determines if the noise a creature makes is sufficient to give away their position. They also make the judgement call if the creature's tracks are obvious enough to also give away their position. Their position is not automatically revealed unless the DM determines that you can indeed detect them via one of the non-visual means available to you.
Some abilities do grant you this invisibility-detection you seem to think people have. But not until high level. Ranger get this ability at 18th level. The thing you say automatically happen, rangers get the ability to do it at 18th level.
Feral Senses:
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Why do you think everyone automatically gains this 18th level ability at level 1?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The VERY first sentence of that unseen attackers rules should tell you that being invisible is one of the default ways to go unnoticed when it says in black and white:
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
^ is all the proof you need to know you can escape being noticed, not only by hiding, but also by being in darkness or by being invisible.
I will add this to my document. Thanks for the example.
Undetectable? No. Just not yet detected. No one said an invisible creature is undetectable. Just un-seeable. If you wanna try to detect them, take the Search action. You can find rules for this action in Chapter 9: Combat. This is exactly the sort of thing it is for. Trying to find something hard to find, mid combat.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This makes sense. When you are hidden (unseen and unheard) then these creatures have an edge when they attempt to search for you, and they might have +5 on their passive perception, depending on the circumstances.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You know the location of all non-hiding creatures in the same combat as you. Those millions of creatures aren't involved.
If the DM wants to play that you know the location of invisible, but unhidden creatures, RAW provides for that. It also leaves plenty of ambiguity so that if the DM wants to play it otherwise, it fits within the framework of the rules as written to do so as well.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm not so sure there are any rules that says that, though. I don't know, maybe you can share a quote about it that support this view?
I do know that your line of reasoning leads to xray vision, unfortunately. Because, if you automatically know the location of all creatures then seemingly you can see them through walls? Seems a bit like this sort of ruling leads to wildly unexpected results. I'm relatively confident that isn't what is supposed to be happening, that xray vision isn't a default sense.
Similarly, being able to magically detect the exact location of something invisible doesn't really seem like a default sense either.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The surprise rules say "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." In addition, the rules for unseen attackers and targets specify that "guessing the target's location" only occurs if you can neither see nor hear the target, and that attacking reveals your location. So, when you enter combat, you automatically detect every opponent who is not hiding, and since guessing at location only occurs when you have not detected the target with any sense, you know where they are.
Is this realistic? Not terribly, but my impression is that the authors looked at the rules for invisibility in combat from prior editions, went "that is ridiculously annoying", and hit it with a giant nerf bat.
This. The designers streamlined a lot of rules, some are not very realistic, some are better than others. But the wording for invisible creatures doesn’t say you don’t know where they are. So by RAW you basically know what 5’ square they are in and you have disadvantage to hit them. However, if they hide successfully then you do not know where they are so you can guess their location and attack. If you attack the wrong square nothing happens.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If you're the DM then your question ties back into questions you're responsible for answering, like how you want invisibility to work. Boots of Elvenkind generally only provide Advantage under very permissive DMs, because almost no Stealth relies on moving silently - usually it relies on not being seen, and moving silently is just helpful. But you're the DM! It works how you say it does.
Same thing for invisibility. The exact mechanics of invisibility are up to you, and hence so are the boots. I'm sure you have a house-rule in place for handling how people detect invisible creatures. I'd encourage you to have your Boots of Elvenkind interact with that system as you deem appropriate. After all, you decided to let your players have the item. I assume you want it to do something.
The Devs have said multiple times on Twitter, Sage Advice and DragonTalk Podcast that your location is known when invisible and that hiding is the by-the-book way to conceal your location. This is supported by the Invisible, Perception, Hiding and the Surprise rules as well. Anyone is free to disagree and can always rule otherwise but must acknowledge it.
With that in mind, the Boots of Elvenkind are not useful to become hidden, only to move silently and thus very limited. If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - moving is usually silent. If you are not hidden, moving silently won't help you go unoticed if your location can be detected already, all it will do is not hear you move.
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
DRAGONTALK PODCAST:
Jeremy Crawford: When you're in invisible it doesn't mean your silent. If you really want to make sure people don't know where you are, you need to hide, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and you're hoping that they are not only not gonna notice any visual traces of where you are but they are not gonna hear you
SAGE ADVICE COMPENDIUM:
If I’m invisible and I become visible when I shoot an arrow at a target, does hiding again require an action? Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
RULES;
Hiding: When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature
Invisible: The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score...
The VERY first sentence of that unseen attackers rules should tell you that being invisible is one of the default ways to go unnoticed when it says in black and white:
^ is all the proof you need to know you can escape being noticed, not only by hiding, but also by being in darkness or by being invisible.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The quotes you have provided do not support your conclusion. They support mine. The DM determines if your location is known to others, it is not automatic.
This just directly confirms my take: The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
You still make as much noise while invisible as not invisible. if that is enough noise to reveal your position, the DM will say so.
Being invisible is not a guarantee of being silent. But it doesn't make other people super-sonic-echo-location experts either. You may, or may not, be detected by the noise you make while invisible, the DM will determine this. If you did wanna be sure you don't get detected, you'd hide as well as be invisible, for sure that'll increase the likelihood of going undetected. That takes it from a DMs subjective call to a roll of the dice ability check to guarantee.
People don't have echolocation. That don't automatically identify the location of invisible creature or objects. The DM determines if the noise a creature makes is sufficient to give away their position. They also make the judgement call if the creature's tracks are obvious enough to also give away their position. Their position is not automatically revealed unless the DM determines that you can indeed detect them via one of the non-visual means available to you.
Some abilities do grant you this invisibility-detection you seem to think people have. But not until high level. Ranger get this ability at 18th level. The thing you say automatically happen, rangers get the ability to do it at 18th level.
Feral Senses:
Why do you think everyone automatically gains this 18th level ability at level 1?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I will add this to my document. Thanks for the example.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think it because the Devs say so repeatedly! DMs can determine anything as they wish of course!