Magic that requires concentration is like a string between the caster and the effect or recipient.
You should be able to cut it at either end.
A spell that has an effect that does not require concentration you would have to DM on the effected area/object/person. The caster is no longer required.
An interesting argument that's not without merit if you're designing your own system, but the example involving Bless already says that's not how it works in 5e.
Regarding the "effect" portion of Dispel Magic, I believe that relates to AoE effects like Daylight, Darkness, Alarm, Spiritual Weapon, etc. They are not objects or creatures, but still single discreet targetable instances. You cannot short-circuit the entirety of a concentration spell by targeting the "effect" of the caster holding the spell, you need to target a specific end result of the spell.
That's a valid interpretation but if you want to claim it is the only interpretation then you will need to cite quotes from RAW to justify it. "Magical Effect" is not well defined in the rules to the best of my knowledge and while I agree it includes things like Daylight, Darkness, Alarm, Spritual Weapon etc. ... I am not sure why you would exclude other magical effects like Telekinesis (isn't it magical?), bless, fear, etc.
Basically, the effect of any spell could be considered a "magical effect" unless you have a reference to a rule saying otherwise?
You're missing my point. Dispel magic states it targets a single creature, object or effect. In this instance, an "effect" that is eligible as a target is something tangible that you can see in the environment, such as the examples I described above. If you wish to end the effect of something such as Telekinesis, Bless, or Fear, you will be targeting a creature or object and, as SAC states, if a spell that can create multiple instances of an effect is is dispelled, it only ends a single effect. To quote the exact words "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends". You can dispel Telekinesis to end the manipulation of a specific creature/object, but it does not end the caster's ability to then use their action on the following turn to exert the effect again. Basically, you cannot declare that you are targeting the "effect" of the caster holding the spell, you need to target an end result.
Just to play devil's advocate on this a little bit:
Why could you not target the "source" of the Telekinesis, the caster, as the "effect" you are wishing to end. the "effect" being the "source" of the telekinesis?
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For the same reason you can't target the Bless caster in the SAC example as the "source" of the Bless. Essentially, you need to target a Dispel Magic at a something that is being affected by the spell, and it doesn't then back trace that effect to root out the spell itself. If it had a target of "Self" like Shadow Blade, then you could target the caster to end the spell, since by the description the caster is the one under the effect of their spell. Telekinesis, however, only targets other objects and creatures, so even though the caster is the one calling the shots, by the definition of the spell's targeting they are not "under the effect" of the spell unless they move themselves.
The difference between Bless and the telekinesis example:
Bless is passively always active on the people blessed by the caster.
The telekinesis is not a passively always active thing. It's an active thing, you still "exert your will" onto the object. This is drastically different than bless. For the purpose of this conversation, the bless example is a horrible comparison and not relevant. That's akin to comparing Heat Metal damage to throwing a spear.
But, like Animate Objects, even if you're directing the effect, the effect is not always applied to you. Just because the spell call for you to use an action to utilize it every turn doesn't mean there's an effect on you that can be dispelled.
No. It does not "Arbitrarily" mean that.
The wording of telekinesis is inconsistent and peculiar because it specifically states causing effect is on the creature or object when you initially target it. However it has a section stating for subsequent rounds that the effect is not on the object or creature anymore but YOU the caster have the effect. Its very weirdly worded.
I personally feel like the SAC entry, though it's correct, really fails to address the nuance of the question. The spell states "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends" but a spell itself can be a target, and if I'm taking this text literally then when I target a spell effect, Dispel Magic will end the effects of a spell on that spell and not the spell itself. For example, if I try to target the effect of Cloudkill with Dispel Magic, by the literal text of the spell Dispel Magic will attempt to end magical effects on the cloud, but not the cloud itself even though that's clearly the intent of the spell.
I think it's clear that the intended targets for Dispel Magic are a Creature, Object, or ongoing spell effect. The rules in Dispel Magic are pretty clear for dispelling a creature or object. But the spell description fails to clearly address dispelling the ongoing effects of a spell, especially spell effects that we can't necessarily see such as Bless.
The spellcasting chapter in the PHB (pg. 204) defines targets as a creature, object, or point of origin for an area of effect. A point of origin is later defined as "a location from which the spell's energy erupts" and later states "some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or object." An important note here is that only spells with an area have a point of origin.
While the section for area of effect only provides some definitions for area shapes, it uses qualifying language: "A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere." So we are not limited to only spells with those shapes if there happen to be outliers. Most spells with an area have it listed next to the spell's range. However, there are exceptions, such as Plant Growth, whose area is described in the spell description (likely because there are two different possible areas for this spell).
All that is to say, if you choose to dispel the effects of a spell, and not a creature or object, only spells that have an area of effect can be targeted by Dispel Magic presuming the point of origin is within range. Bless and Animate Objects do not have a defined area and thus lack a point of origin. Only an individual creature or object can be dispelled in these cases. A DM might rule that a spell such as Bless has an effective area of a 30ft radius, but it is not defined that way in the books. Range and Area are separate, many spells have both.
On the other hand, a spell like Fear has an ongoing spell effects that can affect multiple targets like Bless, but it also has an area (cone). The rules under Range (PHB, 202) state that "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you". In this case you could declare that you are targeting the caster - who is both a creature and the point of origin for the Fear spell - and casting Dispel Magic, which will end the effect of Fear on everyone that failed their save in addition to removing any other magical effects on caster (Mage Armor, etc).
By the rules on the page, Telekinesis is kind of immune to Dispel Magic. You could Dispel the effect of Telekinesis on an object the caster has grabbed, but they can just pick it up again next turn. You can't dispel Telekinesis from the caster because it doesn't have an area and thus lacks a point of origin, and the caster themselves isn't affected by the spell they just control it.
Y'all are getting way too into a psuedo-legalistic dissection of minutiae. Given the example we have and the natural language of 5e "effect" seems to be clearly meant to refer to something we can see and thus target that does not fall into the categories of "creature" or "object", such as a Flaming Sphere, Darkness, Spike Growth, etc.
Keep in mind that Dispel Magic does not intrinsically shut down an entire spell, it ends the spell on the target. A person holding a spell effect is not under an effect of the spell unless they then apply the effect to themselves. For the Fear example, you would have to target a specific creature that has been affected by the spell, and would only end the effects of the spell on that specific creature. If you want to toss a spell at a caster to make them drop Concentration, either just hit them in the face directly or use something like Hideous Laughter or Sleep.
Yes, Telekinesis does manage to skirt by any hard shutdowns from Dispel Magic, but having one specific spell that can bypass an easy shutdown is really more a feature than a flaw imo.
Y'all are getting way too into a psuedo-legalistic dissection of minutiae. Given the example we have and the natural language of 5e "effect" seems to be clearly meant to refer to something we can see and thus target that does not fall into the categories of "creature" or "object", such as a Flaming Sphere, Darkness, Spike Growth, etc.
Keep in mind that Dispel Magic does not intrinsically shut down an entire spell, it ends the spell on the target. A person holding a spell effect is not under an effect of the spell unless they then apply the effect to themselves. For the Fear example, you would have to target a specific creature that has been affected by the spell, and would only end the effects of the spell on that specific creature. If you want to toss a spell at a caster to make them drop Concentration, either just hit them in the face directly or use something like Hideous Laughter or Sleep.
Yes, Telekinesis does manage to skirt by any hard shutdowns from Dispel Magic, but having one specific spell that can bypass an easy shutdown is really more a feature than a flaw imo.
Here is another interesting question.
Here is the wording of dispel magic: "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends."
When cast on a creature or object, Dispel Magic ends ALL spells of 3rd level or lower on the target and for EACH spell of 4th level or higher, you need to make a die roll.
Dispel magic when cast on a creature or object is NOT selective. You can not choose to end the effect of one spell on a target, you MUST end all of the effects unless the caster can choose to target the "magical effect" (which by the way is not visible).
For example, a character in the party with bless, freedom of movement, and death ward on them is subject to a dominate person spell and fails the save. RAW, casting dispel magic on the creature will dispel ANY spells of 3rd level or lower (bye bye bless) and the a die roll needs to be rolled for EACH of the spells freedom of movement, death ward, and dominate person (assuming a 3rd level dispel magic). The ONLY way to prevent this situation is IF the completely invisible and unseen magical effect of dominate person CAN be the target of the dispel magic.
So, which way do you run it? Can Dispel Magic dispel the magical effect or does it have to target the creature and dispel everything on it?
I like my interpretation because it does not require reading and interpreting each description. No arguments.
Dispel Magic is a simple spell and should just need a simple interpretation.
I also do not think Bless should be a concentration spell anyways. An effect lasting one minute yes but not a concentration requirement. Bless people and move on to something else.
Just more of the little things I would like to see changed about 5E. It always seams like someone is trying to hamper casters in one way or another more than is ever needed.
I think your misinterpreting the Dispel magics wording of target.
It does not mean the target of the spell you want to dispel but the target of the spell Dispel Magic. So thinking of it that way yes you can shutdown a spell effect by targeting the caster of a concentration spell.
In my interpretation you would not shut down all of the spell effects on a creature with a single casting of Dispel Magic but only the last one cast. By your example you would also have to role for ALL of the magic items carried by the target.
Why should a 3rd level spell be so powerful that it can shut down 10 levels or more of spells with little to no chance of failure?
In my interpretation you would not shut down all of the spell effects on a creature with a single casting of Dispel Magic but only the last one cast. By your example you would also have to role for ALL of the magic items carried by the target.
Why should a 3rd level spell be so powerful that it can shut down 10 levels or more of spells with little to no chance of failure?
One spell for one spell just like counter spell.
Magic items are not spells. Dispel Magic specifically ends the effects of spells on the target. Which is also why you can't just use it to shut down concentration at the source, per RAW.
A much better alternative to break the caster is to use your 3rd level spell slot on a Fireball centred on the caster, to force them to make a concentration roll.
A caster concentrating on a spell does not have a "magic effect" on them if the spell was cast on other targets.
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An interesting argument that's not without merit if you're designing your own system, but the example involving Bless already says that's not how it works in 5e.
No. It does not "Arbitrarily" mean that.
The wording of telekinesis is inconsistent and peculiar because it specifically states causing effect is on the creature or object when you initially target it. However it has a section stating for subsequent rounds that the effect is not on the object or creature anymore but YOU the caster have the effect. Its very weirdly worded.
Blank
I personally feel like the SAC entry, though it's correct, really fails to address the nuance of the question. The spell states "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends" but a spell itself can be a target, and if I'm taking this text literally then when I target a spell effect, Dispel Magic will end the effects of a spell on that spell and not the spell itself. For example, if I try to target the effect of Cloudkill with Dispel Magic, by the literal text of the spell Dispel Magic will attempt to end magical effects on the cloud, but not the cloud itself even though that's clearly the intent of the spell.
I think it's clear that the intended targets for Dispel Magic are a Creature, Object, or ongoing spell effect. The rules in Dispel Magic are pretty clear for dispelling a creature or object. But the spell description fails to clearly address dispelling the ongoing effects of a spell, especially spell effects that we can't necessarily see such as Bless.
The spellcasting chapter in the PHB (pg. 204) defines targets as a creature, object, or point of origin for an area of effect. A point of origin is later defined as "a location from which the spell's energy erupts" and later states "some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or object." An important note here is that only spells with an area have a point of origin.
While the section for area of effect only provides some definitions for area shapes, it uses qualifying language: "A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere." So we are not limited to only spells with those shapes if there happen to be outliers. Most spells with an area have it listed next to the spell's range. However, there are exceptions, such as Plant Growth, whose area is described in the spell description (likely because there are two different possible areas for this spell).
All that is to say, if you choose to dispel the effects of a spell, and not a creature or object, only spells that have an area of effect can be targeted by Dispel Magic presuming the point of origin is within range. Bless and Animate Objects do not have a defined area and thus lack a point of origin. Only an individual creature or object can be dispelled in these cases. A DM might rule that a spell such as Bless has an effective area of a 30ft radius, but it is not defined that way in the books. Range and Area are separate, many spells have both.
On the other hand, a spell like Fear has an ongoing spell effects that can affect multiple targets like Bless, but it also has an area (cone). The rules under Range (PHB, 202) state that "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you". In this case you could declare that you are targeting the caster - who is both a creature and the point of origin for the Fear spell - and casting Dispel Magic, which will end the effect of Fear on everyone that failed their save in addition to removing any other magical effects on caster (Mage Armor, etc).
By the rules on the page, Telekinesis is kind of immune to Dispel Magic. You could Dispel the effect of Telekinesis on an object the caster has grabbed, but they can just pick it up again next turn. You can't dispel Telekinesis from the caster because it doesn't have an area and thus lacks a point of origin, and the caster themselves isn't affected by the spell they just control it.
Y'all are getting way too into a psuedo-legalistic dissection of minutiae. Given the example we have and the natural language of 5e "effect" seems to be clearly meant to refer to something we can see and thus target that does not fall into the categories of "creature" or "object", such as a Flaming Sphere, Darkness, Spike Growth, etc.
Keep in mind that Dispel Magic does not intrinsically shut down an entire spell, it ends the spell on the target. A person holding a spell effect is not under an effect of the spell unless they then apply the effect to themselves. For the Fear example, you would have to target a specific creature that has been affected by the spell, and would only end the effects of the spell on that specific creature. If you want to toss a spell at a caster to make them drop Concentration, either just hit them in the face directly or use something like Hideous Laughter or Sleep.
Yes, Telekinesis does manage to skirt by any hard shutdowns from Dispel Magic, but having one specific spell that can bypass an easy shutdown is really more a feature than a flaw imo.
Here is another interesting question.
Here is the wording of dispel magic: "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends."
When cast on a creature or object, Dispel Magic ends ALL spells of 3rd level or lower on the target and for EACH spell of 4th level or higher, you need to make a die roll.
Dispel magic when cast on a creature or object is NOT selective. You can not choose to end the effect of one spell on a target, you MUST end all of the effects unless the caster can choose to target the "magical effect" (which by the way is not visible).
For example, a character in the party with bless, freedom of movement, and death ward on them is subject to a dominate person spell and fails the save. RAW, casting dispel magic on the creature will dispel ANY spells of 3rd level or lower (bye bye bless) and the a die roll needs to be rolled for EACH of the spells freedom of movement, death ward, and dominate person (assuming a 3rd level dispel magic). The ONLY way to prevent this situation is IF the completely invisible and unseen magical effect of dominate person CAN be the target of the dispel magic.
So, which way do you run it? Can Dispel Magic dispel the magical effect or does it have to target the creature and dispel everything on it?
I like my interpretation because it does not require reading and interpreting each description. No arguments.
Dispel Magic is a simple spell and should just need a simple interpretation.
I also do not think Bless should be a concentration spell anyways. An effect lasting one minute yes but not a concentration requirement. Bless people and move on to something else.
Just more of the little things I would like to see changed about 5E. It always seams like someone is trying to hamper casters in one way or another more than is ever needed.
I think your misinterpreting the Dispel magics wording of target.
It does not mean the target of the spell you want to dispel but the target of the spell Dispel Magic.
So thinking of it that way yes you can shutdown a spell effect by targeting the caster of a concentration spell.
In my interpretation you would not shut down all of the spell effects on a creature with a single casting of Dispel Magic but only the last one cast.
By your example you would also have to role for ALL of the magic items carried by the target.
Why should a 3rd level spell be so powerful that it can shut down 10 levels or more of spells with little to no chance of failure?
One spell for one spell just like counter spell.
Magic items are not spells. Dispel Magic specifically ends the effects of spells on the target. Which is also why you can't just use it to shut down concentration at the source, per RAW.
A much better alternative to break the caster is to use your 3rd level spell slot on a Fireball centred on the caster, to force them to make a concentration roll.
A caster concentrating on a spell does not have a "magic effect" on them if the spell was cast on other targets.