The general rule is only replaced when there is a contradiction. I've stated that before. The feat provides no contradiction on how a focus is used while casting a spell. In fact the feat specifies that you still must use the tools as a focus.
Geez, there have been way too many comments while I was sleeping so just going to tackle a few things I noticed:
The feat does not give you a choice as to what spell you are casting. For example, a cleric that takes the feat can not choose to cast magic missile with the tool, because they dont know the magic missile spell. You have to first be casting a qualifying spell that you know, this is the same as the class feature.
Specific and general is a spectrum and no rule is automatically specific or general. They are only more specific or general when compared to each other and only compared if they conflict with each other. Whether or not "you can use X as a spellcasting focus for Y," (present in both the feat and class features) contradicts the M spellcasting component rules is the only relevant question.
See rules from artificer previously quoted in #240.
The wording in the Artificer Initiate feat does not come even close to matching the wording of artisan, it is much closer to the wording of all the other spellcasters, as given in #121
So this is where I walk away, Since you don't seem to want to listen to 200+ post telling you why the way your thinking is wrong and with proof. Good luck with your gaming. I'm done feeding the troll.
Yes, and the contradiction is that I can also use that focus for casting any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Using Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile which doesn't have a M component counds like it is the exact opposite of the general rule of using a focus to cast a spell with a M component.
DxJxC
The feat gives you the choice of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Since I have a multi class build and have the Magic Missile from the wizard list I can choose to cast that spell. The very limiting conditions with the third bullet point of the feat are really pretty specific, and the rule on how a focus is normally used to cast a spell with a M component is also really pretty general. Not very many can make a convincing argument that the feat is general or the other rule specific.
Farling
Not sure what you mean by the 'wording of artisan' but I've also given an example that excludes the Artificer class altogether. The Rogue who uses Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult. That's also using a focus for casting a spell without a M component.
Drakkon
You are more like a troll when I calmly quote the rules and prove why it will work and no one can quote any rule back why it won't, except for maybe harping on a general rule about using a focus to cast a spell with M components, which I have continually demonstrated doesn't apply since it's a general rule and doesn't apply when the specific scenario from the third bullet point allows for using a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have a M component.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The feat gives you the choice of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Since I have a multi class build and have the Magic Missile from the wizard list I can choose to cast that spell. The very limiting conditions with the third bullet point of the feat are really pretty specific, and the rule on how a focus is normally used to cast a spell with a M component is also really pretty general. Not very many can make a convincing argument that the feat is general or the other rule specific.
If the feat really gave you the choice to cast spells, it would not matter if you knew it from being a wizard. A monk could choose to cast magic missile. What spell you are casting is not a choice granted by the feat. What you can use as a focus is a choice granted by the feat.
And for the hundredth time, every spellcasting focus feature is written the same way. If the feat lets you choose to "use a focus when you cast any INT spell", then spellcaster can "use a focus when they cast class spells". It is the same sentence, only the type of spell changes. You have only said they are different, but not what makes them different other than that you get to choose to cast any spell, which can't be a difference because the feat doesn't say that.
And specific vs general only apply when rules conflict. Rules that apply to what spells need a focus and rules that apply to what can be used as a focus don't even overlap.
The feat gives you the choice of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Since I have a multi class build and have the Magic Missile from the wizard list I can choose to cast that spell. The very limiting conditions with the third bullet point of the feat are really pretty specific, and the rule on how a focus is normally used to cast a spell with a M component is also really pretty general. Not very many can make a convincing argument that the feat is general or the other rule specific.
Question: Does your MultiClass build include the Artificer Class? ( Answer to that I can confidently say would be a NO, considering your taking the Artificer Initiate Feat )
Because unless you have the Artificer Class in your build, it does not matter if you have the Magic Missile spell from another source, you by RAW cannot cast MM with a focus. the Artificer Initiate Feat by Rule As Written does not impart the rule of forced Material component for spells the Artificer Class does.
Best thing at this point would be to reconfigure your build to have the Artificer Class included, and choose a background or feat that would let you choose the specific artist tools you want.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The feat gives you the choice of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Since I have a multi class build and have the Magic Missile from the wizard list I can choose to cast that spell. The very limiting conditions with the third bullet point of the feat are really pretty specific, and the rule on how a focus is normally used to cast a spell with a M component is also really pretty general. Not very many can make a convincing argument that the feat is general or the other rule specific.
Question: Does your MultiClass build include the Artificer Class? ( Answer to that I can confidently say would be a NO, considering your taking the Artificer Initiate Feat )
Because unless you have the Artificer Class in your build, it does not matter if you have the Magic Missile spell from another source, you by RAW cannot cast MM with a focus. the Artificer Initiate Feat by Rule As Written does not impart the rule of forced Material component for spells the Artificer Class does.
Best thing at this point would be to reconfigure your build to have the Artificer Class included, and choose a background or feat that would let you choose the specific artist tools you want.
It does actually. The alchemist subclass.
That is why he wants artificer initiate to allow using a focus for non-M spells so he can use alchemical savant and awakened spellbook (order of scribes wizard) to add int to damage roll.
Way to also be wrong about the rules so as to agree with him though. The artificer's tools required feature only affects artificer spells. Pretty sure even Brian agrees with that.
The problem is that he says the feat allowing a tool to be used as a focus works differently than every other class feature that says [blank] can be used as a focus. Essentially making it an optional tools required with none of the same rules.
And that should pretty much catch you up on the entire conversation. "X means I can do what I want." "No X does the same thing X does somewhere else." "No, X and X are completely different because X says Y." And repeat 200+ times.
In one example I've shown I do indeed have Artificer levels but there is also the example of Rogue taking the feat and choosing to use Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult and therefore there is way that doesn't even touch upon the Artificer class to use a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have any M component.
DxJxC
Allow me to post it a million times or even for infinity times, the wording of the feat doesn't change:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You keep ignoring the entirety of the third bullet point or claiming I can't do things or make choices it provides, but I can. And again not just because I say i can, but because the rules allow me to.
I don't have to, I could cast other spells or use a different tool if I choose to, but I can also choose Alchemist's Supplies because they are on the artisan's tools list. And I can choose the Magic Missile because it is on the wizard spell list and qualifies as a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
It's right there is black and white for everyone to read. And none of the class features which allow them to have an additional or special focus also say they can use it for casting any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. The feat does also have this additional wording that none of the classes have.
That is the difference.
That is the contradiction.
Sorry not sorry that the rules as written in the rulebooks that have been published for all the world to read and use support what I have proposed... but they do.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
We're not ignoring the text of the feat. You're just not understanding it.
This is a repeat. So I guess I'll repeat. "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus..." "Can" indicates that there is the possibility that you also cannot. That may be due to choice, but in this case, it could also be due to other rules that prevent you. "As a spellcasting focus" means you still have to use the item as a spellcasting focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
Since the feat says "as a spellcasting focus" it is as directly as possible saying that you do not ignore the rules of using an item "as a spellcasting focus" when using the item as a spellcasting focus. It is so simple. It also means the feat is not a contradiction or exception to the rule that using a focus means replacing material components.
I can feel that you think you're right, but you aren't. I can also tell you that many groups play with houserules around components. Play your way. Just drop this.
Perhaps it is you who do not understand. In almost all cases where 'can' appears it offers you the choice, whereas when 'must' appears you do not have the choice of whether to use something. Must is must and can is can. In this case it can be taken to mean can, make the choice and do the thing.
I am using the item as a spellcasting focus, I'm using it as a spellcasting focus to do what the rest of feat says I can... use a focus for casting a spell that has no M component. It does not say or even even imply in any way to ignore or not ignore any rule. It simply says I can and therefore I do. And in doing so I happen to find what seems like an impossible scenario, the use of a focus for casting a spell that has no M component.
As much as you rail and rail that there is no contradiction. I have pointed out how casting a spell with a M component and casting one without a M component is just about how much of a contradiction you can get, they're pretty much exact opposites in fact.
I don't think I'm right, it isn't about me being right. If the argument is personal for you and you want a victory or for me to admit I'm wrong... I gladly and willingly do so. But the facts and the rules remain, as I've mainly kept pointing them out and copy/pasted and stuff.
Specific beats general is one that many on here agree with in principal and print, but when it comes to putting it into practice they keep trying to have the general rule of using a focus for casting a spell with a M component beat the specific scenario of casting a spell without a M component take precedence and win out.
It doesn't, the specific wins out, the wording of the third bullet point allows anyone to make the choices that allow for using a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have any M component.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Perhaps it is you who do not understand. In almost all cases where 'can' appears it offers you the choice, whereas when 'must' appears you do not have the choice of whether to use something. Must is must and can is can. In this case it can be taken to mean can, make the choice and do the thing.
The rules offer no other way to use a focus other than saying that "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
So, here, "can" provides you with a choice: either replace the material components of a spell with a focus, or don't. No other option. That is all. You are still wrong and that will only change when the text of the rules change. They might, errata was issued for the Artificer to fix the similar issue that you indirectly pointed out in the feat with this thread by misunderstanding the rule.
"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
do you see in
"You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
?
Just repeating the rule doesn't actually explain it, and I need an explanation to understand because without one, I'm failing to see the conflict or exception (which is the problem, it's not in the text).
It's in the text of the third bullet point because it allows anyone to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Magic Missile is a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability if you choose it from the wizard's spell list.
Once again, this specifically creates a scenario that allows the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
It's written right there for all the world to see, I'm not interpreting it, adding to it, or changing it in any way.
You just refuse to accept it because you want the general rule of using a focus for casting a spell with a M component to somehow work or take precedence over the specific rule.
The rules themselves are what's proving you wrong, not me. I do not gain a victory in this argument nor do I claim one, I don't even want one. I will always use the rules as written and follow them to the letter.
Specific beats general.
RAW (rules as written).
The third bullet point's choices beat the rule you keep harping on, not the other way around.
This allows for the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
do you see in
"You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
?
Just repeating the rule doesn't actually explain it, and I need an explanation to understand because without one, I'm failing to see the conflict or exception (which is the problem, it's not in the text).
You didn't actually point to a conflict between these two rules. You realize that, right?
Edit: In fact the rule that you want to use says that you can use the tools as a focus. So if you aren’t using the item as a focus, you aren’t fulfilling even the feat’s rules.
Allow me to post it a million times or even for infinity times, the wording of the feat doesn't change:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You keep ignoring the entirety of the third bullet point or claiming I can't do things or make choices it provides, but I can. And again not just because I say i can, but because the rules allow me to.
I don't have to, I could cast other spells or use a different tool if I choose to, but I can also choose Alchemist's Supplies because they are on the artisan's tools list. And I can choose the Magic Missile because it is on the wizard spell list and qualifies as a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
It's right there is black and white for everyone to read. And none of the class features which allow them to have an additional or special focus also say they can use it for casting any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. The feat does also have this additional wording that none of the classes have.
That is the difference.
That is the contradiction.
Sorry not sorry that the rules as written in the rulebooks that have been published for all the world to read and use support what I have proposed... but they do.
You're right the wording of the feat doesn't change. It matches the class feature as much this time as all the previous times.
"you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus forany spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." Vs "you can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus foryour wizard spells." You can use [Focus] as a spellcasting focus for[type of spell].
You keep ignoring the entirety of the third bullet point and claiming the blue part lets you do things or make choices not specified by the feat, but you can't. And again not just because I say you can't, but because the rules don't allow you to.
Basically, you are saying that magic missile counts as any spell that uses intelligence, but not as your wizard spell. Which is objectively incorrect. It is clearly both, so the identically structured effects do the same thing for both. So rather than quoting the spell that we all know what it says again, please just explain in what way magic missile is not a wizard spell like you are claiming. Or if you arent claiming that, stop arguing that the feat does something the class feature can't.
It's right there is black and white (and red and green and blue in this post) for everyone to read. All of the class features which allow them to have a focus also say they can use it for casting their spells. The feat only has additional wording to not be limited to a single class. That is the difference. There is no contradiction.
Sorry not sorry that the rules as written in the rulebooks and that have been published for all the world to read support what I have said... but they do.
When I continually point out 1 rule that says you can use a focus for the casting of a spell with a M component and another rule that allows for the use of a focus for casting a spell without a M component and you say there is no difference, everyone reading this will look at you as a troll and just being stubborn and obtuse.
[REDACTED] They all give an option for a focus but don't allow the use of that focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
The rule for the classes allow you to use a specific focus.
The rule for the feat allows you use that focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
[REDACTED]
Notes: Users should not engage it hostile or targeted commenting
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Reread the feat. It doesn't allow you to use the tools to cast any int spell spell. It allows you to use the tools as a focus for any int spell. I can't fathom why anyone would think that doesn't mean using the tools as a focus.
Right. So you are still saying that rules that apply to spells cast with intelligence apply to magic missile, but rules that apply to wizard spells do not. And now you are also saying that pointing out this obvious flaw in logic is putting words in your mouth.
Not sure what nonsense you're on about when I flat showed you the similarities and how all of the classes and the feat have the same wording and allow for the same thing. They all give an option for a focus and allow the use of that focus for the casting of certain spells.
[Edit]Guess I should remove any direct quotes that mods deemed inappropriate from their source.
It is a fact that all features that mention which focus they can use for spells (including this feat) is just that: a rule that governs the choice of focus and nothing else. They are not worded such as to grant any special casting exceptions to their spells.
Thanks for literally making my arguments for me (I really don't like to put in the energy).
Also glad to help point out how right the rules are, it has been and continues to be undeniable to any who read this.
It's in the text of the third bullet point because it allows anyone to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Magic Missile is a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability if you choose it from the wizard's spell list.
Once again, this specifically creates a scenario that allows the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
It's written right there for all the world to see, I'm not interpreting it, adding to it, or changing it in any way.
You just refuse to accept it because you want the general rule of using a focus for casting a spell with a M component to somehow work or take precedence over the specific rule.
The rules themselves are what's proving you wrong, not me. I do not gain a victory in this argument nor do I claim one, I don't even want one. I will always use the rules as written and follow them to the letter.
Specific beats general.
RAW (rules as written).
The third bullet point's choices beat the rule you keep harping on, not the other way around.
This allows for the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
Actually the feat does not allow the use of a focus to cast a spell that does not have a material component. Nowhere within the definition of the feat does it state the focus adds a material component to any INT spellcasting ability spell.
only the Artificer class feature spellcasting grants this:
Spellcasting TCE p9
You have studied the workings of magic and how to channel it through objects. As a result, you have gained the ability to cast spells. To observers, you don't appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you look as if you're producing wonders using mundane items or outlandish inventions.
Tools Required[–]
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an 'M' component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, "Equipment," in the Player's Handbook for descriptions of these tools.
After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.
[ this is because if one takes the Artificer subclass Specialty Armorer, they can acquire the Magic Missile spell, otherwise they have to multiclass to obtain access to Wizards spell list. ]
The feat however, does grant you proficiency with artisan tools of your choice to then be used as a spellcasting focus for those classes/subclasses that use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability for their spells that require a material component as per the general rules of casting a spell defined in the PHB and Basic Rules.
Given this, if you already have the Artificer Class and have taken the Alchemist Specialty, answer me this:
Why do you even have this feat?
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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The general rule is only replaced when there is a contradiction. I've stated that before. The feat provides no contradiction on how a focus is used while casting a spell. In fact the feat specifies that you still must use the tools as a focus.
Geez, there have been way too many comments while I was sleeping so just going to tackle a few things I noticed:
The feat does not give you a choice as to what spell you are casting. For example, a cleric that takes the feat can not choose to cast magic missile with the tool, because they dont know the magic missile spell. You have to first be casting a qualifying spell that you know, this is the same as the class feature.
Specific and general is a spectrum and no rule is automatically specific or general. They are only more specific or general when compared to each other and only compared if they conflict with each other. Whether or not "you can use X as a spellcasting focus for Y," (present in both the feat and class features) contradicts the M spellcasting component rules is the only relevant question.
See rules from artificer previously quoted in #240.
The wording in the Artificer Initiate feat does not come even close to matching the wording of artisan, it is much closer to the wording of all the other spellcasters, as given in #121
So this is where I walk away, Since you don't seem to want to listen to 200+ post telling you why the way your thinking is wrong and with proof. Good luck with your gaming. I'm done feeding the troll.
WolfOfTheBees
Yes, and the contradiction is that I can also use that focus for casting any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Using Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile which doesn't have a M component counds like it is the exact opposite of the general rule of using a focus to cast a spell with a M component.
DxJxC
The feat gives you the choice of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Since I have a multi class build and have the Magic Missile from the wizard list I can choose to cast that spell. The very limiting conditions with the third bullet point of the feat are really pretty specific, and the rule on how a focus is normally used to cast a spell with a M component is also really pretty general. Not very many can make a convincing argument that the feat is general or the other rule specific.
Farling
Not sure what you mean by the 'wording of artisan' but I've also given an example that excludes the Artificer class altogether. The Rogue who uses Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult. That's also using a focus for casting a spell without a M component.
Drakkon
You are more like a troll when I calmly quote the rules and prove why it will work and no one can quote any rule back why it won't, except for maybe harping on a general rule about using a focus to cast a spell with M components, which I have continually demonstrated doesn't apply since it's a general rule and doesn't apply when the specific scenario from the third bullet point allows for using a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have a M component.
If the feat really gave you the choice to cast spells, it would not matter if you knew it from being a wizard. A monk could choose to cast magic missile. What spell you are casting is not a choice granted by the feat. What you can use as a focus is a choice granted by the feat.
And for the hundredth time, every spellcasting focus feature is written the same way. If the feat lets you choose to "use a focus when you cast any INT spell", then spellcaster can "use a focus when they cast class spells". It is the same sentence, only the type of spell changes. You have only said they are different, but not what makes them different other than that you get to choose to cast any spell, which can't be a difference because the feat doesn't say that.
And specific vs general only apply when rules conflict. Rules that apply to what spells need a focus and rules that apply to what can be used as a focus don't even overlap.
@Brian_Avery you have posted this:
Question: Does your MultiClass build include the Artificer Class? ( Answer to that I can confidently say would be a NO, considering your taking the Artificer Initiate Feat )
Because unless you have the Artificer Class in your build, it does not matter if you have the Magic Missile spell from another source, you by RAW cannot cast MM with a focus. the Artificer Initiate Feat by Rule As Written does not impart the rule of forced Material component for spells the Artificer Class does.
Best thing at this point would be to reconfigure your build to have the Artificer Class included, and choose a background or feat that would let you choose the specific artist tools you want.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It does actually. The alchemist subclass.
That is why he wants artificer initiate to allow using a focus for non-M spells so he can use alchemical savant and awakened spellbook (order of scribes wizard) to add int to damage roll.
Way to also be wrong about the rules so as to agree with him though. The artificer's tools required feature only affects artificer spells. Pretty sure even Brian agrees with that.
The problem is that he says the feat allowing a tool to be used as a focus works differently than every other class feature that says [blank] can be used as a focus. Essentially making it an optional tools required with none of the same rules.
And that should pretty much catch you up on the entire conversation. "X means I can do what I want." "No X does the same thing X does somewhere else." "No, X and X are completely different because X says Y." And repeat 200+ times.
Paradox_Traveler
In one example I've shown I do indeed have Artificer levels but there is also the example of Rogue taking the feat and choosing to use Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult and therefore there is way that doesn't even touch upon the Artificer class to use a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have any M component.
DxJxC
Allow me to post it a million times or even for infinity times, the wording of the feat doesn't change:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You keep ignoring the entirety of the third bullet point or claiming I can't do things or make choices it provides, but I can. And again not just because I say i can, but because the rules allow me to.
I don't have to, I could cast other spells or use a different tool if I choose to, but I can also choose Alchemist's Supplies because they are on the artisan's tools list. And I can choose the Magic Missile because it is on the wizard spell list and qualifies as a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
It's right there is black and white for everyone to read. And none of the class features which allow them to have an additional or special focus also say they can use it for casting any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. The feat does also have this additional wording that none of the classes have.
That is the difference.
That is the contradiction.
Sorry not sorry that the rules as written in the rulebooks that have been published for all the world to read and use support what I have proposed... but they do.
We're not ignoring the text of the feat. You're just not understanding it.
This is a repeat. So I guess I'll repeat. "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus..." "Can" indicates that there is the possibility that you also cannot. That may be due to choice, but in this case, it could also be due to other rules that prevent you. "As a spellcasting focus" means you still have to use the item as a spellcasting focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
Since the feat says "as a spellcasting focus" it is as directly as possible saying that you do not ignore the rules of using an item "as a spellcasting focus" when using the item as a spellcasting focus. It is so simple. It also means the feat is not a contradiction or exception to the rule that using a focus means replacing material components.
I can feel that you think you're right, but you aren't. I can also tell you that many groups play with houserules around components. Play your way. Just drop this.
Perhaps it is you who do not understand. In almost all cases where 'can' appears it offers you the choice, whereas when 'must' appears you do not have the choice of whether to use something. Must is must and can is can. In this case it can be taken to mean can, make the choice and do the thing.
I am using the item as a spellcasting focus, I'm using it as a spellcasting focus to do what the rest of feat says I can... use a focus for casting a spell that has no M component. It does not say or even even imply in any way to ignore or not ignore any rule. It simply says I can and therefore I do. And in doing so I happen to find what seems like an impossible scenario, the use of a focus for casting a spell that has no M component.
As much as you rail and rail that there is no contradiction. I have pointed out how casting a spell with a M component and casting one without a M component is just about how much of a contradiction you can get, they're pretty much exact opposites in fact.
I don't think I'm right, it isn't about me being right. If the argument is personal for you and you want a victory or for me to admit I'm wrong... I gladly and willingly do so. But the facts and the rules remain, as I've mainly kept pointing them out and copy/pasted and stuff.
Specific beats general is one that many on here agree with in principal and print, but when it comes to putting it into practice they keep trying to have the general rule of using a focus for casting a spell with a M component beat the specific scenario of casting a spell without a M component take precedence and win out.
It doesn't, the specific wins out, the wording of the third bullet point allows anyone to make the choices that allow for using a focus for the casting of a spell that doesn't have any M component.
The rules offer no other way to use a focus other than saying that "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
So, here, "can" provides you with a choice: either replace the material components of a spell with a focus, or don't. No other option. That is all. You are still wrong and that will only change when the text of the rules change. They might, errata was issued for the Artificer to fix the similar issue that you indirectly pointed out in the feat with this thread by misunderstanding the rule.
What conflict with
do you see in
?
Just repeating the rule doesn't actually explain it, and I need an explanation to understand because without one, I'm failing to see the conflict or exception (which is the problem, it's not in the text).
It's in the text of the third bullet point because it allows anyone to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. Magic Missile is a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability if you choose it from the wizard's spell list.
Once again, this specifically creates a scenario that allows the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
It's written right there for all the world to see, I'm not interpreting it, adding to it, or changing it in any way.
You just refuse to accept it because you want the general rule of using a focus for casting a spell with a M component to somehow work or take precedence over the specific rule.
The rules themselves are what's proving you wrong, not me. I do not gain a victory in this argument nor do I claim one, I don't even want one. I will always use the rules as written and follow them to the letter.
Specific beats general.
RAW (rules as written).
The third bullet point's choices beat the rule you keep harping on, not the other way around.
This allows for the use of a focus for casting a spell that doesn't have a M component.
You didn't actually point to a conflict between these two rules. You realize that, right?
Edit: In fact the rule that you want to use says that you can use the tools as a focus. So if you aren’t using the item as a focus, you aren’t fulfilling even the feat’s rules.
You're right the wording of the feat doesn't change. It matches the class feature as much this time as all the previous times.
"you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." Vs "you can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells." You can use [Focus] as a spellcasting focus for [type of spell].
You keep ignoring the entirety of the third bullet point and claiming the blue part lets you do things or make choices not specified by the feat, but you can't. And again not just because I say you can't, but because the rules don't allow you to.
Basically, you are saying that magic missile counts as any spell that uses intelligence, but not as your wizard spell. Which is objectively incorrect. It is clearly both, so the identically structured effects do the same thing for both. So rather than quoting the spell that we all know what it says again, please just explain in what way magic missile is not a wizard spell like you are claiming. Or if you arent claiming that, stop arguing that the feat does something the class feature can't.
It's right there is black and white (and red and green and blue in this post) for everyone to read. All of the class features which allow them to have a focus also say they can use it for casting their spells. The feat only has additional wording to not be limited to a single class. That is the difference. There is no contradiction.
Sorry not sorry that the rules as written in the rulebooks and that have been published for all the world to read support what I have said... but they do.
[REDACTED]
When I continually point out 1 rule that says you can use a focus for the casting of a spell with a M component and another rule that allows for the use of a focus for casting a spell without a M component and you say there is no difference, everyone reading this will look at you as a troll and just being stubborn and obtuse.
[REDACTED] They all give an option for a focus but don't allow the use of that focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
The rule for the classes allow you to use a specific focus.
The rule for the feat allows you use that focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
[REDACTED]
Reread the feat. It doesn't allow you to use the tools to cast any int spell spell. It allows you to use the tools as a focus for any int spell. I can't fathom why anyone would think that doesn't mean using the tools as a focus.
Right. So you are still saying that rules that apply to spells cast with intelligence apply to magic missile, but rules that apply to wizard spells do not. And now you are also saying that pointing out this obvious flaw in logic is putting words in your mouth.
Not sure what nonsense you're on about when I flat showed you the similarities and how all of the classes and the feat have the same wording and allow for the same thing. They all give an option for a focus and allow the use of that focus for the casting of certain spells.
[Edit]Guess I should remove any direct quotes that mods deemed inappropriate from their source.
It is a fact that all features that mention which focus they can use for spells (including this feat) is just that: a rule that governs the choice of focus and nothing else. They are not worded such as to grant any special casting exceptions to their spells.
Thanks for literally making my arguments for me (I really don't like to put in the energy).
Also glad to help point out how right the rules are, it has been and continues to be undeniable to any who read this.
Actually the feat does not allow the use of a focus to cast a spell that does not have a material component. Nowhere within the definition of the feat does it state the focus adds a material component to any INT spellcasting ability spell.
only the Artificer class feature spellcasting grants this:
Spellcasting TCE p9
You have studied the workings of magic and how to channel it through objects. As a result, you have gained the ability to cast spells. To observers, you don't appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you look as if you're producing wonders using mundane items or outlandish inventions.
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an 'M' component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, "Equipment," in the Player's Handbook for descriptions of these tools.
After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.
[ this is because if one takes the Artificer subclass Specialty Armorer, they can acquire the Magic Missile spell, otherwise they have to multiclass to obtain access to Wizards spell list. ]
The feat however, does grant you proficiency with artisan tools of your choice to then be used as a spellcasting focus for those classes/subclasses that use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability for their spells that require a material component as per the general rules of casting a spell defined in the PHB and Basic Rules.
Given this, if you already have the Artificer Class and have taken the Alchemist Specialty, answer me this:
Why do you even have this feat?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.