Druid casts moonbeam and places it on top of the lich.
1. As a reaction, can the lich move out of the moonbeam BEFORE his turn, assuming she is not surprised?
2. The druid's turn is before the lich's turn. If the lich cannot take a reaction and move away from the moonbeam before their turn, are they relegated to taking XYZ amount of damage no matter what unless SOMEONE ELSE moves them out of the area of effect?
3. If they are pinned in place till the spell procs on them unless someone else moves them out of the way - are they stuck in the cycle of getting damage, moving, the moonbeam being moved back on top of them, getting damage, then moving - wash, rinse, repeat till they die?
Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
This STILL seems like a massive exploit of the spell.
Does he get a reaction to move out of the area of affect before it procs so long as he hasn't taken a reaction yet that round?
Not an exploit, moonbeam is concentration and the lich has some really good ways to break concentration, or they can just use globe of invulnerability on them self. Also, moonbeam damage isn't great and doesn't scale well.
Druid casts moonbeam and places it on top of the lich.
1. As a reaction, can the lich move out of the moonbeam BEFORE his turn, assuming she is not surprised?
2. The druid's turn is before the lich's turn. If the lich cannot take a reaction and move away from the moonbeam before their turn, are they relegated to taking XYZ amount of damage no matter what unless SOMEONE ELSE moves them out of the area of effect?
3. If they are pinned in place till the spell procs on them unless someone else moves them out of the way - are they stuck in the cycle of getting damage, moving, the moonbeam being moved back on top of them, getting damage, then moving - wash, rinse, repeat till they die?
Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
This STILL seems like a massive exploit of the spell.
Does he get a reaction to move out of the area of affect before it procs so long as he hasn't taken a reaction yet that round?
2. If the spell was successfully cast? Probably, yeah.
3. Well... magic missile will probably work unless the druid has good luck and succeeds all 3 concentration saves, and can also cast ray of frost 3 times before its turn. If 6 concentration checks don't work, there is always dispel magic, dimension door, or globe of invulnerability. Those will work for sure.
But yeah, if the lich chooses not to protect itself, kill the druid, or run it might die in 20ish turns.
Druid casts moonbeam and places it on top of the lich.
1. As a reaction, can the lich move out of the moonbeam BEFORE his turn, assuming she is not surprised?
2. The druid's turn is before the lich's turn. If the lich cannot take a reaction and move away from the moonbeam before their turn, are they relegated to taking XYZ amount of damage no matter what unless SOMEONE ELSE moves them out of the area of effect?
3. If they are pinned in place till the spell procs on them unless someone else moves them out of the way - are they stuck in the cycle of getting damage, moving, the moonbeam being moved back on top of them, getting damage, then moving - wash, rinse, repeat till they die?
Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
This STILL seems like a massive exploit of the spell.
Does he get a reaction to move out of the area of affect before it procs so long as he hasn't taken a reaction yet that round?
2. If the spell was successfully cast? Probably, yeah.
3. Well... magic missile will probably work unless the druid has good luck and succeeds all 3 concentration saves, and can also cast ray of frost 3 times before its turn. If 6 concentration checks don't work, there is always dispel magic, dimension door, or globe of invulnerability. Those will work for sure.
But yeah, if the lich chooses not to protect itself, kill the druid, or run it might die in 20ish turns.
I think they maybe mean the lich moves as a readied action
Doesn't the lich get Legendary Actions? Even if there aren't any that do movement, the lich could cause some serious concentration-breaking damage or paralysis to the druid, and certainly all those creatures that are pinning the lich in the moonbeam...
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Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
Bearing in mind that at this point Moonbeam is using Sully's concentration AND their action each turn to keep moving the beam, and only get a few d10's worth of damage (presuming if you're fighting a lich they've probably upcast it at least by a couple levels) that is probably going to be halved more often than not since Lich's have +10 to Con saves, then I'd say this usage of the spell is perfectly reasonable.
If anything, Sully is kind of the one getting hosed on this deal. Assuming they upcast Moonbeam with a level 4 slot for 4d10, that's an average of about 24 damage around. If Sully's spell save DC is around 17 or 18, the lich (with their +10 Con Save) only has a 30% chance of failing the saving throw and taking full damage, so really you're looking more at a damage output of around 12 damage per round, which again is going to consume their Action AND concentration, effectively locking Sully down from doing anything else. At 135 HP, 12 damage per round is peanuts.
Not to say that moonbeam is a bad spell, but it's kind of a bad spell to use against a monster this powerful. It sucks more out of the player than it damages the monster, so as the DM, I don't think you have anything to worry about it being overpowered.
This is not a massive exploit, just a pretty good spell.
Lets talk about the things you are not talking about:
The Druid is using his Action to move the moonbeam. Huge Opportunity cost.
The damage is tiny and takes a while to build up. 2d10, save for half. Lich has 135 hp. So, assuming the Lich failed it's save for all 10 turns, that is a max of 20d10, averaging 110 damage. Congratulations, you have failed to kill the Lich. Oh, and he has killed you in like 3 turns.
The Lich has a +10 Con save. Assuming you are high level and have a DC of 20, the lich will make half it's saves. If your save is more like 15, expect the Lich to make the save 3/4 of the time.
Oh, you want to upcast the spell? Lets compare with a GREAT spell. Sunbeam which also takes an action. Upcast Moonbeam to 6th level does 6d10, save for half. Sunbeam does 6d8, rather than 6d10. But Undead have disadvantage on the save AND it also blinds them on a failed save. Also, Sunbeam counts as Daylight (nothing for Lichs, but Vampires and creatures with sunlight sensitivity really dislike this. Moonbeam helps with shapechangers, but not as common as sunlight sensitivity ). Sunbeam is the better spell.
You think Sunbeam is also overpowered? OK, lets compare with another 2nd level spell. Heat Metal does d28 NO SAVE and requires only a Bonus Action rather than your Action.
Do not mistake me, I like Moonbeam. It is a good spell. But it is not overpowered. Just in line with the other good spells, like Heat Metal, Spirit Guardians, etc.
Druid casts moonbeam and places it on top of the lich.
1. As a reaction, can the lich move out of the moonbeam BEFORE his turn, assuming she is not surprised?
2. The druid's turn is before the lich's turn. If the lich cannot take a reaction and move away from the moonbeam before their turn, are they relegated to taking XYZ amount of damage no matter what unless SOMEONE ELSE moves them out of the area of effect?
3. If they are pinned in place till the spell procs on them unless someone else moves them out of the way - are they stuck in the cycle of getting damage, moving, the moonbeam being moved back on top of them, getting damage, then moving - wash, rinse, repeat till they die?
Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
This STILL seems like a massive exploit of the spell.
Does he get a reaction to move out of the area of affect before it procs so long as he hasn't taken a reaction yet that round?
Others have addressed this, but your recap at the end is not how combat works. It works like this:
Lich chooses whether or not to use one of its casts of Counterspell, unless the spell was cast from more than 60 feet away. Moonbeam is range 120, so let's assume it was.
The save DC should be approximately 19 and the Lich has a +10 to Con saves, so it saves with probability 60%, and can auto-succeed on saves 3 times. However, Moonbeam is nearly entirely harmless, so let's assume it doesn't even bother with Legendary Resistance. That means it takes .4*11+.6*5=7.4 damage per time Moonbeam hurts it, which about 5.5% of its maximum vitality on its current life.
At the end of Sully's turn, the Lich gets a Legendary action, but none of them are range 120 feet, so we'll ignore that for now.
On the Lich's turn it can cast Dimension Door and be so far from the Moonbeam that it can't be moved onto the lich, or it can cast Globe of Invulnerability and just ignore Moonbeam entirely, or it can use Plane Shift to also escape Moonbeam. The most plausible answer is that it uses Dimension Door to teleport to Sully.
Sully's turn. Sully can't get the Moonbeam onto the lich and has to do something else.
If Sully casts Moonbeam within 60 feet to try and ensure the lich won't choose to escape it, Counterspell becomes viable.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Moonbeam is NOT a called shot, direct damage spell that will proc every single time it is moved on top of a creature regardless of their save. Sure, there's the requirement for concentration on the part of the caster, but it is effectively a no-fail, guaranteed hit laser beam.
The REAL situation is that I ran a one-shot for our gaming club about a month, maybe 6 weeks ago. The two players who I ran the one-shot for both were able to cast moonbeam. They (mistakenly) were under the assumption that the spell proc'ed as soon as it touched down where the baddie - a beefed-up Banshee - was in the scene. They also insisted it proc'ed a second time at the start of the banshee's turn. They went 1st and 2nd in the round, the banshee went last after my NPCs - who were a sorceress and a fighter respectively.
1. Because this is a gaming club and I'm working on being approved as a DM, I had to use the current house rules of letting the spell proc on impact AND when the banshee started her turn. The banshee failed both her saves and they nearly killed her between the two of them in the first round. The second round looked to be wash/rinse/repeat of the first. I did what any good DM would do and ignored their damage while letting them think I didn't.
2. In discussing the scene with the head DM later, I brought up the article about the spell by the Dev's from 2016. It will go under review at a meeting with all the DM's next month (we have a LOT of people in our club so there are quarterly meetings).
3. I have a private group that I am running a campaign for - they just started a couple of weeks ago and I'm taking them through the Frozen Sick module. One of the players is a druid and I fear I will have more issues with moonbeam - though I will NOT be letting it proc twice each round or that nonsense.
4. I really just want to handle the spell correctly as I DM the mechanics so I don't let it be too powerful for whatever level it's cast at, or nerf it to oblivion because it annoys me that much.
With all that said ...
Moving out of the moonbeam when it's cast on the spot where the bad guy is standing has to happen AFTER the spell procs - so there's no getting around it. They can't move out of it on their own until their next turn after it's cast. I find that irritating. Mostly because the spell description is so ambiguous.
It is what it is, though.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and maybe help me figure out how run this spell from the DM's side of the screen.
If you read Sickening Radiance carefully it works the same way. It doesn’t do anything when it’s first cast so a smart opponent can dispel it or force a concentration check during the round that it’s cast, protecting most of your targets from it.
There are a few spells that work that way. They’re all more effective/useful if you have a way to hold opponents in their area of effect or push opponents into their area of effect once they escape than they are if you can move the spell onto an opponent.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Moonbeam is NOT a called shot, direct damage spell that will proc every single time it is moved on top of a creature regardless of their save. Sure, there's the requirement for concentration on the part of the caster, but it is effectively a no-fail, guaranteed hit laser beam.
Moving out of the moonbeam when it's cast on the spot where the bad guy is standing has to happen AFTER the spell procs - so there's no getting around it. They can't move out of it on their own until their next turn after it's cast. I find that irritating. Mostly because the spell description is so ambiguous.
It is what it is, though.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and maybe help me figure out how run this spell from the DM's side of the screen.
A lot of damage over time, area denial spells work like that:
Most spell like this either deal damage immediately and when creatures end their turns there OR when a creature enters the area for the first time or starts their turn there. There are a few exceptions (like insect plague which deals damage immediately AND at the start of turn or when they first enter each turn).
Generally, these triggers happen equally often and with equal amount of time to prepare (not much time at all), with the only notable exceptions being if the target can move as a reaction or legendary action or if they can be forced to move.
Shove is your friend when one of these effects is on the battle ground. Just shove them back into the moonbeam and they take the damage immediately on your turn. They'll then take it again at the start of their own turn.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Moonbeam is NOT a called shot, direct damage spell that will proc every single time it is moved on top of a creature regardless of their save.
It is, but... so what? Basically, Moonbeam lets you spend your action to do 1d10 per level of spell. Druids have other similar spells, such as Call Lightning and Sunbeam, and a lot of the time you're better off with something that does instantaneous damage, or lets you use a bonus action for damage, or that does damage without requiring you to spend an action.
I find that Moonbeam is best if you place it in such away that multiple creatures have to move through it, such as in a hallway or other choke point. As a single target spell it isn't very good and you are better off using something else.
Edit: Also, the issue you are having is not due to the spell, it is due to the broken house rule.
Everyone here has done a good job covering the mechanics of Moonbeam and how it compares to other spells. But I had a few thoughts to add about your concerns on a more general level.
Yeah, your gaming club has been ruling this spell wrong and hopefully will adjust. Usually spells EITHER (deal damage to the target when cast and when the target ends their turn in the effect) OR (when the target enters the effect for the first time on a turn and when the target turn in the effect). Parenthesis and capitalization used to make it clear what the two clause are. As DxJxC mentions Insect Plague has more unique wording. However, in general if someone thinks a spell can do two instances of damage before the target can act then there is probably a misunderstand of the spell's mechanics.
As for Moonbeam's damage being difficult to avoid, this is true of a lot leveled damage spells. Fireball always does damage unless the target is immune to fire or has the Evasion feature. If you compare it to Heat Metal they deal almost identical damage (assuming a 60% save fail rate). And Heat Metal only takes your bonus action to deal damage and forces disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.
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Druid casts moonbeam and places it on top of the lich.
1. As a reaction, can the lich move out of the moonbeam BEFORE his turn, assuming she is not surprised?
2. The druid's turn is before the lich's turn. If the lich cannot take a reaction and move away from the moonbeam before their turn, are they relegated to taking XYZ amount of damage no matter what unless SOMEONE ELSE moves them out of the area of effect?
3. If they are pinned in place till the spell procs on them unless someone else moves them out of the way - are they stuck in the cycle of getting damage, moving, the moonbeam being moved back on top of them, getting damage, then moving - wash, rinse, repeat till they die?
Sully the druid casts moonbeam as he goes at the top of the round. There it sits on top of the lich, who can't do anything but say "Oh my" till the beginning of his round which is dead last. He rolls his save, takes whatever damage, then moves and does his action. Sully moves the moonbeam back on top of the lich, who again says "Oh my" ..... ad infinitum.
This STILL seems like a massive exploit of the spell.
Does he get a reaction to move out of the area of affect before it procs so long as he hasn't taken a reaction yet that round?
Not an exploit, moonbeam is concentration and the lich has some really good ways to break concentration, or they can just use globe of invulnerability on them self. Also, moonbeam damage isn't great and doesn't scale well.
1. As a reaction, the lich can cast counterspell. But move? No.
2. If the spell was successfully cast? Probably, yeah.
3. Well... magic missile will probably work unless the druid has good luck and succeeds all 3 concentration saves, and can also cast ray of frost 3 times before its turn. If 6 concentration checks don't work, there is always dispel magic, dimension door, or globe of invulnerability. Those will work for sure.
But yeah, if the lich chooses not to protect itself, kill the druid, or run it might die in 20ish turns.
I think they maybe mean the lich moves as a readied action
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Doesn't the lich get Legendary Actions? Even if there aren't any that do movement, the lich could cause some serious concentration-breaking damage or paralysis to the druid, and certainly all those creatures that are pinning the lich in the moonbeam...
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Bearing in mind that at this point Moonbeam is using Sully's concentration AND their action each turn to keep moving the beam, and only get a few d10's worth of damage (presuming if you're fighting a lich they've probably upcast it at least by a couple levels) that is probably going to be halved more often than not since Lich's have +10 to Con saves, then I'd say this usage of the spell is perfectly reasonable.
If anything, Sully is kind of the one getting hosed on this deal. Assuming they upcast Moonbeam with a level 4 slot for 4d10, that's an average of about 24 damage around. If Sully's spell save DC is around 17 or 18, the lich (with their +10 Con Save) only has a 30% chance of failing the saving throw and taking full damage, so really you're looking more at a damage output of around 12 damage per round, which again is going to consume their Action AND concentration, effectively locking Sully down from doing anything else. At 135 HP, 12 damage per round is peanuts.
Not to say that moonbeam is a bad spell, but it's kind of a bad spell to use against a monster this powerful. It sucks more out of the player than it damages the monster, so as the DM, I don't think you have anything to worry about it being overpowered.
This is not a massive exploit, just a pretty good spell.
Lets talk about the things you are not talking about:
Do not mistake me, I like Moonbeam. It is a good spell. But it is not overpowered. Just in line with the other good spells, like Heat Metal, Spirit Guardians, etc.
Others have addressed this, but your recap at the end is not how combat works. It works like this:
If Sully casts Moonbeam within 60 feet to try and ensure the lich won't choose to escape it, Counterspell becomes viable.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Moonbeam is NOT a called shot, direct damage spell that will proc every single time it is moved on top of a creature regardless of their save. Sure, there's the requirement for concentration on the part of the caster, but it is effectively a no-fail, guaranteed hit laser beam.
The REAL situation is that I ran a one-shot for our gaming club about a month, maybe 6 weeks ago. The two players who I ran the one-shot for both were able to cast moonbeam. They (mistakenly) were under the assumption that the spell proc'ed as soon as it touched down where the baddie - a beefed-up Banshee - was in the scene. They also insisted it proc'ed a second time at the start of the banshee's turn. They went 1st and 2nd in the round, the banshee went last after my NPCs - who were a sorceress and a fighter respectively.
1. Because this is a gaming club and I'm working on being approved as a DM, I had to use the current house rules of letting the spell proc on impact AND when the banshee started her turn. The banshee failed both her saves and they nearly killed her between the two of them in the first round. The second round looked to be wash/rinse/repeat of the first. I did what any good DM would do and ignored their damage while letting them think I didn't.
2. In discussing the scene with the head DM later, I brought up the article about the spell by the Dev's from 2016. It will go under review at a meeting with all the DM's next month (we have a LOT of people in our club so there are quarterly meetings).
3. I have a private group that I am running a campaign for - they just started a couple of weeks ago and I'm taking them through the Frozen Sick module. One of the players is a druid and I fear I will have more issues with moonbeam - though I will NOT be letting it proc twice each round or that nonsense.
4. I really just want to handle the spell correctly as I DM the mechanics so I don't let it be too powerful for whatever level it's cast at, or nerf it to oblivion because it annoys me that much.
With all that said ...
Moving out of the moonbeam when it's cast on the spot where the bad guy is standing has to happen AFTER the spell procs - so there's no getting around it. They can't move out of it on their own until their next turn after it's cast. I find that irritating. Mostly because the spell description is so ambiguous.
It is what it is, though.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and maybe help me figure out how run this spell from the DM's side of the screen.
If you read Sickening Radiance carefully it works the same way. It doesn’t do anything when it’s first cast so a smart opponent can dispel it or force a concentration check during the round that it’s cast, protecting most of your targets from it.
There are a few spells that work that way. They’re all more effective/useful if you have a way to hold opponents in their area of effect or push opponents into their area of effect once they escape than they are if you can move the spell onto an opponent.
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A lot of damage over time, area denial spells work like that:
(And I decided to stop looking after level 5).
Most spell like this either deal damage immediately and when creatures end their turns there OR when a creature enters the area for the first time or starts their turn there. There are a few exceptions (like insect plague which deals damage immediately AND at the start of turn or when they first enter each turn).
Generally, these triggers happen equally often and with equal amount of time to prepare (not much time at all), with the only notable exceptions being if the target can move as a reaction or legendary action or if they can be forced to move.
Shove is your friend when one of these effects is on the battle ground. Just shove them back into the moonbeam and they take the damage immediately on your turn. They'll then take it again at the start of their own turn.
It is, but... so what? Basically, Moonbeam lets you spend your action to do 1d10 per level of spell. Druids have other similar spells, such as Call Lightning and Sunbeam, and a lot of the time you're better off with something that does instantaneous damage, or lets you use a bonus action for damage, or that does damage without requiring you to spend an action.
I find that Moonbeam is best if you place it in such away that multiple creatures have to move through it, such as in a hallway or other choke point. As a single target spell it isn't very good and you are better off using something else.
Edit: Also, the issue you are having is not due to the spell, it is due to the broken house rule.
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Everyone here has done a good job covering the mechanics of Moonbeam and how it compares to other spells. But I had a few thoughts to add about your concerns on a more general level.
Yeah, your gaming club has been ruling this spell wrong and hopefully will adjust. Usually spells EITHER (deal damage to the target when cast and when the target ends their turn in the effect) OR (when the target enters the effect for the first time on a turn and when the target turn in the effect). Parenthesis and capitalization used to make it clear what the two clause are. As DxJxC mentions Insect Plague has more unique wording. However, in general if someone thinks a spell can do two instances of damage before the target can act then there is probably a misunderstand of the spell's mechanics.
As for Moonbeam's damage being difficult to avoid, this is true of a lot leveled damage spells. Fireball always does damage unless the target is immune to fire or has the Evasion feature. If you compare it to Heat Metal they deal almost identical damage (assuming a 60% save fail rate). And Heat Metal only takes your bonus action to deal damage and forces disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.