I'm working on a custom cleric subclass, and I'm trying to include tremorsense in a feature. As there are no spells, to my knowledge, that provide tremorsense, at what level (spell or otherwise) would you place providing tremorsense for one minute? One hour? How about an ability that provides tremorsense permanently?
It's either very powerful, or mostly useless. It effectively negates invisibility and hiding (I'd rule it negating them, anyway. It's certainly written ambiguously enough that others might come to a different conclusion) within its radius. If either or both of those come up a lot in your campaign, then it will be very useful. If they party is fighting a bunch of off-the-rack orcs. It will seem like a ribbon ability. If a character doesn't have darkvision, it can go a long way toward overcoming that, as well.
A lot of the monsters that have it are a fairly low cr. See invisibility is only a level 2 spell. Maybe give it at level 3 or 4 ish if you're going to do it for a minute.
Tremorsense is poorly explained even by standards of 5e senses, but its only advantage over blindsight is that it probably passes through cover as long as its other requirements are satisfied, which makes it very useful to a creature with a burrow speed.
I'm working on a custom cleric subclass, and I'm trying to include tremorsense in a feature. As there are no spells, to my knowledge, that provide tremorsense, at what level (spell or otherwise) would you place providing tremorsense for one minute? One hour? How about an ability that provides tremorsense permanently?
Many thanks!
Wrong forum for homebrew advice, but from a power perspective, it's strictly worse than general blindsight (note that the blindsight PCs can get from a fighting style is nerfed to be blocked by total cover - neither blindsight nor tremorsense in general are). The most similar PC abilities are the fighting style for 10' blindsight which is blocked by total cover and the eldritch invocation that lets a Warlock 1/rest spend 1 minute able to actually see through solid objects, which is radically better than Tremorsense.
The easiest way to get Tremorsense is to be a Druid in the right module - there are module-specific Beasts with Tremorsense at CR 0 and1/4 without a swim or fly speed. Earth Elementals have it at 60 feet, so a level 10 Moon Druid also has easy access to it, and polymorph can access those same beasts, while true polymorph can access a wide array of things with it.
I would allow access to Tremorsense starting at level 1, but the exact range, duration, and cost of the ability would depend heavily on what we were talking about - a spell? A class feature? A racial? I'll give an example. Earth Genasi ought to have Tremorsense, it's just that WOTC is incompetent and lazy. Putting it on them, I'd give them 60 foot Tremorsense and remove their Darkvision and probably call it a wash.
I think that a discussion about what tremorsense actually does would be required and agreed upon before making it into something like a class feature or spell available to players. At least at your table. I find that a great many players seem to believe that tremorsense is just a different version of sight or blind sight, which I don’t think is the case and has been refuted by mr Crawford in one of the many DnD videos he’s taken part in on YouTube.
tremorsense is more similar to websense than a “sight” based perception. this may be a bit of a poor example due to all spiders seeming to have blindsight, so the example doesn’t quite hold up to a mechanical examination on its effects. For comparison purposes, I believe that every creature that’s been released so far that has tremor sense also has darkvision. This seems to me to be because those creatures are usually designed to be able to ambush another creature by bursting from from a wall or the ground in caves and tunnels, which are places that don’t have light. If tremorsense truly was a different form of “sight” then why do all of these creatures also have darkvision? It’s because without that darkvision, they would be attacking you blindly at disadvantage since they can’t actually see you in the dark. The reasoning is just my guess though as I can’t recall Mr Crawford going into very much detail about the feature other than confirming that creatures can successfully hide within the radius of another creatures tremorsense.
I think the example of the first “tremors” movie with the graboids would be an example of creatures that use tremorsense. Also an example of creatures with tremorsense actually being blind since they sometimes have to search with their tentacles to find their prey. They know things are close by, but can’t quite find them in some scenes, and can even be thrown off by distracting vibrations.
the cantrip Thaumaturgy could potentially be used to confuse or bait simple minded creatures with tremorsense since it can cause tremors in different areas up to 30 feet away for a duration of 1 minute.
I think that a discussion about what tremorsense actually does would be required and agreed upon before making it into something like a class feature or spell available to players. At least at your table. I find that a great many players seem to believe that tremorsense is just a different version of sight or blind sight, which I don’t think is the case and has been refuted by me Crawford in one of the many DnD videos he’s taken part in on YouTube.
The language around tremorsense is no different to that of blindsight, in that both allow a creature to "perceive" without the use of eyes. In rules terms this means that for all intents and purposes a creature with tremorsense can "see" a creature moving on the ground that it is sensing the tremors through, so it will defeat invisibility while rolling to hit as if in bright light etc.
If tremorsense truly was a different form of “sight” then why do all of these creatures also have darkvision? It’s because without that darkvision, they would be attacking you blindly at disadvantage since they can’t actually see you in the dark.
Tremorsense only works for creatures that are on the ground, and are causing some kind of tremors; if a creature were flying, or perfectly still (or at least, could argue that it is "still enough") then they would become invisible to a creature with only tremorsense as it has no way of perceiving them. With darkvision they can still see things that they otherwise could not using tremorsense only.
The connectedness to the ground is the biggest difference to blindsight, as neither sense cares about cover, however tremorsense is confounded by a creature that isn't on the same ground. Of course both come with heapings of DM judgement, as no matter how a creature senses its prey I'd still assume that Stealth and Perception checks work as normal (so a creature can move carefully enough to not detectable to either sense), and whether blindsight works through cover or not will depend on the creature (if it senses via hearing, is the cover sound-proof?). Like you say, there may be ways to interfere with either; loud noises will disrupt a creature that relies on sound, strong smells for a scent based creature, and tremors for a tremor sensor.
I'd say that to rate its strength generally tremorsense is usually "lesser" to blindsight, though it's going to be pretty close most of the time (unless a campaign features a lot of hovering and flying enemies). While the homebrew aspect is off-topic I'd follow the Blind Fighting style as a template for a player ability, though I could see allowing a wider radius but maybe imposing disadvantage beyond half way?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think that a discussion about what tremorsense actually does would be required and agreed upon before making it into something like a class feature or spell available to players. At least at your table. I find that a great many players seem to believe that tremorsense is just a different version of sight or blind sight, which I don’t think is the case and has been refuted by me Crawford in one of the many DnD videos he’s taken part in on YouTube.
The language around tremorsense is no different to that of blindsight, in that both allow a creature to "perceive" without the use of eyes. In rules terms this means that for all intents and purposes a creature with tremorsense can "see" a creature moving on the ground that it is sensing the tremors through, so it will defeat invisibility while rolling to hit as if in bright light etc.
Absolutely not. Tremorsense locates creatures, so you know exactly where they are. If you have Tremorsense but no other special senses and are fighting another creature in the dark, you will obey all the normal rules for not being able to see the creature both when you attack it and when it attacks you. In game terms, you can think of Tremorsense as automatically defeating hidden without a check, but it doesn't defeat invisible without a check (other than locating the invisible creature, as I said).
Tremorsense only works for creatures that are on the ground,
Absolutely false. Tremorsense works through any "substance" (i.e. it's blocked by hard vacuum) and automatically fails on flying or incorporeal creatures. While there's bound to be plenty of DM interpretation going on to try and fix that in terms of a substance which is a plasma or gas (e.g. tremorsensing a creature that's mid-fall and by definition not flying through the air) as the ban on sensing flying creatures may be interpreted to mean you're not supposed to be able to Tremorsense through gases, there's no question Tremorsense works through any solid (so it works through walls and ceilings, not just the ground - you can tremorsense a spider on the wall next to you just fine) and any liquid (Tremorsense is at its most powerful underwater, where the ban on working on flying creatures becomes meaningless, giving you a genuine sphere of detection in an environment that's 3D to begin with).
and are causing some kind of tremors; if a creature were flying, or perfectly still (or at least, could argue that it is "still enough") then they would become invisible to a creature with only tremorsense as it has no way of perceiving them.
Perfectly still is an interesting issue for sure, because the rules don't define the relevant vibrations. Presumably, any creature which doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe has neither the lungs nor heart that make it impossible for a human to be genuinely still, but there are also weeds in terms of which creatures are capable of holding perfectly still without fatigue or boredom interfering, so that's going to boil down to DM fiat.
Of course both come with heapings of DM judgement, as no matter how a creature senses its prey I'd still assume that Stealth and Perception checks work as normal (so a creature can move carefully enough to not detectable to either sense), and whether blindsight works through cover or not will depend on the creature (if it senses via hearing, is the cover sound-proof?).
Stealth is effectively useless against tremorsense and blindsight in the general case. Specific examples of either can have specific nerfs, of course - such as the Fighting Style blindsight PCs can easily get, which can be hidden from provided you're invisible or behind total cover.
Tremorsense locates creatures, so you know exactly where they are. If you have Tremorsense but no other special senses and are fighting another creature in the dark, you will obey all the normal rules for not being able to see the creature both when you attack it and when it attacks you.
I don't believe that this follows; tremorsense "detects and pinpoints the source of vibrations", detect is a synonym for perceive, and the source of those vibrations is usually going to be a creature (at least in the cases we're normally interested in).
Meanwhile a creature with blindsight "can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight" (i.e- by some other method, as in tremorsense). Again if it's searching for creatures, then it's detecting/perceiving them without sight.
Unless you're arguing that a creature with blindsight receives no benefit from having it then a creature with tremorsense must have the same basic benefit, as these are essentially stating the same thing for different senses. Both enable a creature to detect/perceive other creatures via means other than sight, and in similar cases both may be in a situation where they know something is there but still cannot see it visually, i.e- if the target is within blindsight/tremorsense range (and detectible to these) but shrouded in thick fog, darkness etc.
So either both overcome the normal penalty for being unable to see a target, or neither does and both senses are essentially pointless.
In game terms, you can think of Tremorsense as automatically defeating hidden without a check, but it doesn't defeat invisible without a check (other than locating the invisible creature, as I said).
It can only defeat hiding if the target is producing detectible vibrations through a connective medium, and if those vibrations are sufficient to be detectable to the creature (i.e- distinct from background vibrations, distinct or unusual enough to take notice of etc.).
Tremorsense only works for creatures that are on the ground,
Absolutely false. Tremorsense works through any "substance"
It's not "absolutely false"; the tremorsense rule states "same ground or substance" which is what I meant; I'll try to be more precise because obviously walls/jell-o/whatever will also work as well so long as it's all sufficiently connecting the creature to its target(s), but I didn't think I was being unclear – my point was you need that connection or it doesn't work.
and are causing some kind of tremors; if a creature were flying, or perfectly still (or at least, could argue that it is "still enough") then they would become invisible to a creature with only tremorsense as it has no way of perceiving them.
Perfectly still is an interesting issue for sure, because the rules don't define the relevant vibrations. Presumably, any creature which doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe has neither the lungs nor heart that make it impossible for a human to be genuinely still, but there are also weeds in terms of which creatures are capable of holding perfectly still without fatigue or boredom interfering, so that's going to boil down to DM fiat.
Tremorsense itself also doesn't clarify what exactly is detectible, because the more it can detect, the easier it could be to overwhelm. I think it's usually safest to assume "noticeable vibration" in the same way that a creature with eyes can only detect a "noticeable sight". Having a sense doesn't guarantee that you notice something with it; a smell can be too faint, an enemy could blend in with its background (through concealment, stealth, or just good luck), and so-on.
This is why I believe the usual Stealth vs. Perception is still required in resolving it, though this means that as usual it's up the player to say how they're hiding, and the DM to interpret what that means to the creatures that might detect them, and to apply the usual toolkit like applying advantage/disadvantage to one or both. Another way of thinking about it is that a sense enables you to detect something, a check (active or passive) is what determines if you do.
In a general sense I would assume that a Rogue sneaking tries to do so quietly, which means minimising their impact with the ground (to reduce noise); ergo the quieter they are to to creatures with ears, the less obvious they're going to be to creatures with tremorsense also. For someone who's focused on being visually undetectable and made no effort to reduce noise/vibration, then sure, detect/perceive away, as that creature is effectively unhidden to your other senses. Blindsight is a bit more vague as it's not clear on what it is, and can vary from creature to creature; for example a creature with Daredevil-like hearing may not necessarily detect a noisy creature more easily, but once detected can attack it as though it could see it.
I'm pretty sure this is how it's intended to be run, and don't see anything in RAW that says otherwise; mechanically these special senses are ultimately just ways to overcome the penalties for not being able to see, and they're subject to all the other rules as normal.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Its not that powerful especially if the DM run invisible creature's location as being known since its not as if it was seeing so it only reveal the location of hidden creature you didn't already know.
In my head, tremorsense is a big bonus to hearing(perception) rolls made through contact with solid objects or surfaces, with the added benefit of knowing the location of any sounds heard. For instance, if an enemy is invisible without stealthing, it can be heard, identified (as a hostile creature, for instance) and located, but it isn't seen.
If it's stealthing, it is also supressing sound clues, so information will scarcer. Maybe you will only get a general location, or maybe you get a location but less knowledge about what the creature is doing (weight, gait, weapon being drawn, etc). If a creature is non-corporeal or not touching the ground, you might still get a small bonus to hearing sounds (vocal sounds, strongly displaced air), but will not get a location. Often non-corporeal beings will create sounds psychically and not physically, which tremorsense will not work with.
One problem I have is that i can imagine having tremorsense would leave one vulnerable to being overwhelmed by sound or vibrational noise. I haven't seen any stat-based descriptions, but I can imagine that one would be tremor-blind next to a waterfall, for example.
Another problem is whether tremorsense (or blind-sense for that matter,) can gather information about the environment (i.e. the thickness of walls, or the presence of air cavities underground). Considering burrowing monsters like bulettes would use it for navigation I imagine there is some probability there, but i doubt the issue comes up very often for players.
In conclusion, I would say that tremorsense as a PC feature COULD be very powerful, but tremorsense 20' or 30' is probably on a par with darkvision 60'. Base the results on the character's perception score, and if you want to nerf it in any situation, remember that any noise in the environment will make it much more difficult to use.
I forgot about this. It’s interesting seeing these responses about Tremorsense effectively being blindsight in light of the play test clarifications going on.
I forgot about this. It’s interesting seeing these responses about Tremorsense effectively being blindsight in light of the play test clarifications going on.
This thread is mostly from 2022, before the playtest, and the playtest rulings are not just adjusting awkward wordings, they're making rulings on previously unclear issues. Looking through the glossaries, rulings relevant to this thread
Blindsight does not work through total cover (several people asserted that it did, and it's a plausible interpretation of the 2014 rule).
Tremorsense does not mention being affected by total cover, but is explicitly not a form of sight and thus does not remove penalties for your opponent being unseen.
"When do you know an enemy's position" is even less clear than it was in 2014, as hide no longer explicitly causes your location to be unknown.
Tremorsense is a pretty powerful ability. It negates concealment, and that by itself is strong. While there is no direct way to get it, if you allow Cave Badger or Chimerac Cat from the various modules then Wildshape or Polymorph can grant you the ability, although they are low level creatures (0 and 1/4 CR)
I would consider allowing someone to use it for 1 minute (or maybe 10 minutes with concentration) with a pretty limited range. Perhaps 30 ft tremorsense for as the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Perhaps let it upcast to increase the range from 30 ft to level x 10 ft.
Permanent would be OK at high levels. 14th level Rogues get blindsense upto 10 ft. Blindsense is lesser than blindsight, so let's bump it up from a class to a subclass ability.
I could see a subclass ability at around 14th level granting tremorsense of 10 ft.
Ah, a somewhat more recent undead thread, I guess I’m not the only one that is bored and looking back to see what I can comment on. Tremorsense is (irl) a type of hearing, just not the frequencies the ear hears. Typically it’s lower frequency sounds that are “felt” rather than “heard”. It’s worth having a look at the 2024 rule to see what is and isn’t covered:
TREMOR SENSE A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects within a specific range, provided that the creature with Tremorsense and anything it is detecting are both in contact with the same surface (such as the ground, a wall, or a ceiling) or the same liquid.
Tremorsense can’t detect creatures or objects in the air, and it doesn’t count as a form of sight.
its basically the same as 2014 (MM). Key points- pinpoints the location of creatures/ moving objects in range - if you and they are in contact with the the same surface/liquid. What is not clear is whether this negates the disadvantage from blinded condition if in range. It says it’s not sight so you are still blinded in that sense, but if you can pinpoint the locations of creatures, note - pinpoint not just general location- shouldn’t that (RAI at least) negate the disadvantage on attacks within the Tremorsense range? Further it includes liquids so it becomes very powerful if you are involved in any underwater or in water adventures. Keep in mind that essentially all fish have Tremorsense via their lateral lines (personally, as a DM, I would give a lateral line to any PC with Tremorsense.) I suspect that WotC is still having a discussion about spells and powers like this and the blinded condition as none of the spells and powers ( like this one) that should negate the disadvantage of the blinded condition specifically say that they do.
The problem with the ambiguity of Tremorsense is that 5E (and 2024 rules changes) do not have any the level of granularity to distinguish between a creature/object being fully perceived vs. being detectable-but-not-quite-fully-perceivable. Part of the issue is that disadvantage to hit vs not having disadvantage is a streamlining of older editions' rules about sight vs. invisible creatures. It makes sense that Tremorsense does not confer full visibility since it tells you nothing about how much armor a creature has, where the weaknesses are in the creature's armor, what the creature is wielding as a weapon or whether that creature is using a shield. However, a creature with Tremorsense that cannot actually use sight on a creature it is attacking should, logically, be at better place than a creature attacking completely "blind" to the prospective target, right? Therein lies the problem of reducing granularity. We expect Tremorsense to be better than just using regular sound (to a human) to sense an otherwise invisible creature, but per the rules, Tremorsense just lets a creature pinpoint the square the target is standing/sitting/swimming, but does zero to help you hit that creature.
Not official ruling, but perhaps this tweet from the Dev may be interesting for this thread:
@DerynDraconis Can a creature with Tremorsense locate player while he is moving, with a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check, within its radius? Or a success is impossible because vibrations (including heartbeats or breathing) prevents a player to move stealthly vs Tremorsense?
@JeremyECrawford Tremorsense doesn't automatically nullify someone else's Stealth. It lets you notice someone in contact with the ground on the other side of a wall, for instance. But a person can still move stealthily enough to escape the notice of a creature with tremorsense.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi all,
I'm working on a custom cleric subclass, and I'm trying to include tremorsense in a feature. As there are no spells, to my knowledge, that provide tremorsense, at what level (spell or otherwise) would you place providing tremorsense for one minute? One hour? How about an ability that provides tremorsense permanently?
Many thanks!
It's either very powerful, or mostly useless. It effectively negates invisibility and hiding (I'd rule it negating them, anyway. It's certainly written ambiguously enough that others might come to a different conclusion) within its radius. If either or both of those come up a lot in your campaign, then it will be very useful. If they party is fighting a bunch of off-the-rack orcs. It will seem like a ribbon ability. If a character doesn't have darkvision, it can go a long way toward overcoming that, as well.
A lot of the monsters that have it are a fairly low cr. See invisibility is only a level 2 spell. Maybe give it at level 3 or 4 ish if you're going to do it for a minute.
Level 1 fighters, level 2 rangers, level 2 paladins, and level 14 rogues get 10 feet of blindsense which I would say is stronger.
So 10-15 feet, not too bad at low level. 20-30 feet should be after level 10. 30+ after level 15.
Tremorsense is poorly explained even by standards of 5e senses, but its only advantage over blindsight is that it probably passes through cover as long as its other requirements are satisfied, which makes it very useful to a creature with a burrow speed.
Wrong forum for homebrew advice, but from a power perspective, it's strictly worse than general blindsight (note that the blindsight PCs can get from a fighting style is nerfed to be blocked by total cover - neither blindsight nor tremorsense in general are). The most similar PC abilities are the fighting style for 10' blindsight which is blocked by total cover and the eldritch invocation that lets a Warlock 1/rest spend 1 minute able to actually see through solid objects, which is radically better than Tremorsense.
The easiest way to get Tremorsense is to be a Druid in the right module - there are module-specific Beasts with Tremorsense at CR 0 and1/4 without a swim or fly speed. Earth Elementals have it at 60 feet, so a level 10 Moon Druid also has easy access to it, and polymorph can access those same beasts, while true polymorph can access a wide array of things with it.
I would allow access to Tremorsense starting at level 1, but the exact range, duration, and cost of the ability would depend heavily on what we were talking about - a spell? A class feature? A racial? I'll give an example. Earth Genasi ought to have Tremorsense, it's just that WOTC is incompetent and lazy. Putting it on them, I'd give them 60 foot Tremorsense and remove their Darkvision and probably call it a wash.
I think that a discussion about what tremorsense actually does would be required and agreed upon before making it into something like a class feature or spell available to players. At least at your table. I find that a great many players seem to believe that tremorsense is just a different version of sight or blind sight, which I don’t think is the case and has been refuted by mr Crawford in one of the many DnD videos he’s taken part in on YouTube.
tremorsense is more similar to websense than a “sight” based perception. this may be a bit of a poor example due to all spiders seeming to have blindsight, so the example doesn’t quite hold up to a mechanical examination on its effects. For comparison purposes, I believe that every creature that’s been released so far that has tremor sense also has darkvision. This seems to me to be because those creatures are usually designed to be able to ambush another creature by bursting from from a wall or the ground in caves and tunnels, which are places that don’t have light. If tremorsense truly was a different form of “sight” then why do all of these creatures also have darkvision? It’s because without that darkvision, they would be attacking you blindly at disadvantage since they can’t actually see you in the dark. The reasoning is just my guess though as I can’t recall Mr Crawford going into very much detail about the feature other than confirming that creatures can successfully hide within the radius of another creatures tremorsense.
I think the example of the first “tremors” movie with the graboids would be an example of creatures that use tremorsense. Also an example of creatures with tremorsense actually being blind since they sometimes have to search with their tentacles to find their prey. They know things are close by, but can’t quite find them in some scenes, and can even be thrown off by distracting vibrations.
the cantrip Thaumaturgy could potentially be used to confuse or bait simple minded creatures with tremorsense since it can cause tremors in different areas up to 30 feet away for a duration of 1 minute.
The language around tremorsense is no different to that of blindsight, in that both allow a creature to "perceive" without the use of eyes. In rules terms this means that for all intents and purposes a creature with tremorsense can "see" a creature moving on the ground that it is sensing the tremors through, so it will defeat invisibility while rolling to hit as if in bright light etc.
Tremorsense only works for creatures that are on the ground, and are causing some kind of tremors; if a creature were flying, or perfectly still (or at least, could argue that it is "still enough") then they would become invisible to a creature with only tremorsense as it has no way of perceiving them. With darkvision they can still see things that they otherwise could not using tremorsense only.
The connectedness to the ground is the biggest difference to blindsight, as neither sense cares about cover, however tremorsense is confounded by a creature that isn't on the same ground. Of course both come with heapings of DM judgement, as no matter how a creature senses its prey I'd still assume that Stealth and Perception checks work as normal (so a creature can move carefully enough to not detectable to either sense), and whether blindsight works through cover or not will depend on the creature (if it senses via hearing, is the cover sound-proof?). Like you say, there may be ways to interfere with either; loud noises will disrupt a creature that relies on sound, strong smells for a scent based creature, and tremors for a tremor sensor.
I'd say that to rate its strength generally tremorsense is usually "lesser" to blindsight, though it's going to be pretty close most of the time (unless a campaign features a lot of hovering and flying enemies). While the homebrew aspect is off-topic I'd follow the Blind Fighting style as a template for a player ability, though I could see allowing a wider radius but maybe imposing disadvantage beyond half way?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Absolutely not. Tremorsense locates creatures, so you know exactly where they are. If you have Tremorsense but no other special senses and are fighting another creature in the dark, you will obey all the normal rules for not being able to see the creature both when you attack it and when it attacks you. In game terms, you can think of Tremorsense as automatically defeating hidden without a check, but it doesn't defeat invisible without a check (other than locating the invisible creature, as I said).
Absolutely false. Tremorsense works through any "substance" (i.e. it's blocked by hard vacuum) and automatically fails on flying or incorporeal creatures. While there's bound to be plenty of DM interpretation going on to try and fix that in terms of a substance which is a plasma or gas (e.g. tremorsensing a creature that's mid-fall and by definition not flying through the air) as the ban on sensing flying creatures may be interpreted to mean you're not supposed to be able to Tremorsense through gases, there's no question Tremorsense works through any solid (so it works through walls and ceilings, not just the ground - you can tremorsense a spider on the wall next to you just fine) and any liquid (Tremorsense is at its most powerful underwater, where the ban on working on flying creatures becomes meaningless, giving you a genuine sphere of detection in an environment that's 3D to begin with).
Perfectly still is an interesting issue for sure, because the rules don't define the relevant vibrations. Presumably, any creature which doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe has neither the lungs nor heart that make it impossible for a human to be genuinely still, but there are also weeds in terms of which creatures are capable of holding perfectly still without fatigue or boredom interfering, so that's going to boil down to DM fiat.
I don't believe that this follows; tremorsense "detects and pinpoints the source of vibrations", detect is a synonym for perceive, and the source of those vibrations is usually going to be a creature (at least in the cases we're normally interested in).
Meanwhile a creature with blindsight "can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight" (i.e- by some other method, as in tremorsense). Again if it's searching for creatures, then it's detecting/perceiving them without sight.
Unless you're arguing that a creature with blindsight receives no benefit from having it then a creature with tremorsense must have the same basic benefit, as these are essentially stating the same thing for different senses. Both enable a creature to detect/perceive other creatures via means other than sight, and in similar cases both may be in a situation where they know something is there but still cannot see it visually, i.e- if the target is within blindsight/tremorsense range (and detectible to these) but shrouded in thick fog, darkness etc.
So either both overcome the normal penalty for being unable to see a target, or neither does and both senses are essentially pointless.
It can only defeat hiding if the target is producing detectible vibrations through a connective medium, and if those vibrations are sufficient to be detectable to the creature (i.e- distinct from background vibrations, distinct or unusual enough to take notice of etc.).
It's not "absolutely false"; the tremorsense rule states "same ground or substance" which is what I meant; I'll try to be more precise because obviously walls/jell-o/whatever will also work as well so long as it's all sufficiently connecting the creature to its target(s), but I didn't think I was being unclear – my point was you need that connection or it doesn't work.
Tremorsense itself also doesn't clarify what exactly is detectible, because the more it can detect, the easier it could be to overwhelm. I think it's usually safest to assume "noticeable vibration" in the same way that a creature with eyes can only detect a "noticeable sight". Having a sense doesn't guarantee that you notice something with it; a smell can be too faint, an enemy could blend in with its background (through concealment, stealth, or just good luck), and so-on.
This is why I believe the usual Stealth vs. Perception is still required in resolving it, though this means that as usual it's up the player to say how they're hiding, and the DM to interpret what that means to the creatures that might detect them, and to apply the usual toolkit like applying advantage/disadvantage to one or both. Another way of thinking about it is that a sense enables you to detect something, a check (active or passive) is what determines if you do.
In a general sense I would assume that a Rogue sneaking tries to do so quietly, which means minimising their impact with the ground (to reduce noise); ergo the quieter they are to to creatures with ears, the less obvious they're going to be to creatures with tremorsense also. For someone who's focused on being visually undetectable and made no effort to reduce noise/vibration, then sure, detect/perceive away, as that creature is effectively unhidden to your other senses. Blindsight is a bit more vague as it's not clear on what it is, and can vary from creature to creature; for example a creature with Daredevil-like hearing may not necessarily detect a noisy creature more easily, but once detected can attack it as though it could see it.
I'm pretty sure this is how it's intended to be run, and don't see anything in RAW that says otherwise; mechanically these special senses are ultimately just ways to overcome the penalties for not being able to see, and they're subject to all the other rules as normal.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Its not that powerful especially if the DM run invisible creature's location as being known since its not as if it was seeing so it only reveal the location of hidden creature you didn't already know.
In my head, tremorsense is a big bonus to hearing(perception) rolls made through contact with solid objects or surfaces, with the added benefit of knowing the location of any sounds heard. For instance, if an enemy is invisible without stealthing, it can be heard, identified (as a hostile creature, for instance) and located, but it isn't seen.
If it's stealthing, it is also supressing sound clues, so information will scarcer. Maybe you will only get a general location, or maybe you get a location but less knowledge about what the creature is doing (weight, gait, weapon being drawn, etc). If a creature is non-corporeal or not touching the ground, you might still get a small bonus to hearing sounds (vocal sounds, strongly displaced air), but will not get a location. Often non-corporeal beings will create sounds psychically and not physically, which tremorsense will not work with.
One problem I have is that i can imagine having tremorsense would leave one vulnerable to being overwhelmed by sound or vibrational noise. I haven't seen any stat-based descriptions, but I can imagine that one would be tremor-blind next to a waterfall, for example.
Another problem is whether tremorsense (or blind-sense for that matter,) can gather information about the environment (i.e. the thickness of walls, or the presence of air cavities underground). Considering burrowing monsters like bulettes would use it for navigation I imagine there is some probability there, but i doubt the issue comes up very often for players.
In conclusion, I would say that tremorsense as a PC feature COULD be very powerful, but tremorsense 20' or 30' is probably on a par with darkvision 60'. Base the results on the character's perception score, and if you want to nerf it in any situation, remember that any noise in the environment will make it much more difficult to use.
I forgot about this. It’s interesting seeing these responses about Tremorsense effectively being blindsight in light of the play test clarifications going on.
Tremorsense isn’t blindsight.
This thread is mostly from 2022, before the playtest, and the playtest rulings are not just adjusting awkward wordings, they're making rulings on previously unclear issues. Looking through the glossaries, rulings relevant to this thread
Tremorsense is a pretty powerful ability. It negates concealment, and that by itself is strong. While there is no direct way to get it, if you allow Cave Badger or Chimerac Cat from the various modules then Wildshape or Polymorph can grant you the ability, although they are low level creatures (0 and 1/4 CR)
I would consider allowing someone to use it for 1 minute (or maybe 10 minutes with concentration) with a pretty limited range. Perhaps 30 ft tremorsense for as the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Perhaps let it upcast to increase the range from 30 ft to level x 10 ft.
Permanent would be OK at high levels. 14th level Rogues get blindsense upto 10 ft. Blindsense is lesser than blindsight, so let's bump it up from a class to a subclass ability.
I could see a subclass ability at around 14th level granting tremorsense of 10 ft.
i tried to sense a cliff lol
Ah, a somewhat more recent undead thread, I guess I’m not the only one that is bored and looking back to see what I can comment on.
Tremorsense is (irl) a type of hearing, just not the frequencies the ear hears. Typically it’s lower frequency sounds that are “felt” rather than “heard”. It’s worth having a look at the 2024 rule to see what is and isn’t covered:
TREMOR SENSE
A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects within a specific range, provided that the creature with Tremorsense and anything it is detecting are both in contact with the same surface (such as the ground, a wall, or a ceiling) or the same liquid.
Tremorsense can’t detect creatures or objects in the air, and it doesn’t count as a form of sight.
its basically the same as 2014 (MM). Key points- pinpoints the location of creatures/ moving objects in range - if you and they are in contact with the the same surface/liquid. What is not clear is whether this negates the disadvantage from blinded condition if in range. It says it’s not sight so you are still blinded in that sense, but if you can pinpoint the locations of creatures, note - pinpoint not just general location- shouldn’t that (RAI at least) negate the disadvantage on attacks within the Tremorsense range? Further it includes liquids so it becomes very powerful if you are involved in any underwater or in water adventures. Keep in mind that essentially all fish have Tremorsense via their lateral lines (personally, as a DM, I would give a lateral line to any PC with Tremorsense.) I suspect that WotC is still having a discussion about spells and powers like this and the blinded condition as none of the spells and powers ( like this one) that should negate the disadvantage of the blinded condition specifically say that they do.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The problem with the ambiguity of Tremorsense is that 5E (and 2024 rules changes) do not have any the level of granularity to distinguish between a creature/object being fully perceived vs. being detectable-but-not-quite-fully-perceivable. Part of the issue is that disadvantage to hit vs not having disadvantage is a streamlining of older editions' rules about sight vs. invisible creatures. It makes sense that Tremorsense does not confer full visibility since it tells you nothing about how much armor a creature has, where the weaknesses are in the creature's armor, what the creature is wielding as a weapon or whether that creature is using a shield. However, a creature with Tremorsense that cannot actually use sight on a creature it is attacking should, logically, be at better place than a creature attacking completely "blind" to the prospective target, right? Therein lies the problem of reducing granularity. We expect Tremorsense to be better than just using regular sound (to a human) to sense an otherwise invisible creature, but per the rules, Tremorsense just lets a creature pinpoint the square the target is standing/sitting/swimming, but does zero to help you hit that creature.
Not official ruling, but perhaps this tweet from the Dev may be interesting for this thread: