So i'm having a discussion with some friends about how this works in some scenarios, so, i'm going to say how i think this rules work and i'll be thankfull to everyone who can correct me or support me.
In the first scenario my character, who has darkvision, is hiding in the dark against someone who doesn't have darkvision or any special sensorial ability (blind sight or similar). So my enemy goes first and uses the search action to find my location and succeds, BUT even if he knows my location, he still has disadvantage on his attacks because he cannot see me and i can see him, and in my turn i will be able to attack him with advantage because i can see him and he can't see me.
In the second scenario I'm hiding inside a bush or the top of a tree that counts as "dense foliage" therefore counts as a heavily obscured area, then i do two attacks with a bow against some enemiy who is quite away. Following the hide rules that attack reveals my position BUT once again i still have advantage in both attacks and any attack as long i see my enemies and remain obscured (meaning they don't see me) without the need of changing my position and/or using the hide action.
For what i understand the "hide action" conveys your location and, unless your oponents use the "search action" and succeds or uses any other magical/supernatural mean, they cannot even target you, even if they know you are lurking near they have to guess where you could be and attack that spot, AND all this goes independent of the unseen attackers rules meaning that, knowing your location doesn't mean they have line of sight, and doesn't prevent them about having disadvantage or me having advantage following the Unseen attackers rules.
Thanks for your help no matter if it's for saying that i'm wrong or for comfirmating this rules to my friends. (I'm not a good english speaker so sorry for the mistakes or the misplaced"," )
If you are in heavily obscured, then you cannot see either. Your disadvantage cancels the advantage. Not unless you have some magical means of seeing through the obscurement. The way to do it would be via blindsense, tremor sense, or something similar.
So i'm having a discussion with some friends about how this works in some scenarios, so, i'm going to say how i think this rules work and i'll be thankfull to everyone who can correct me or support me.
In the first scenario my character, who has darkvision, is hiding in the dark against someone who doesn't have darkvision or any special sensorial ability (blind sight or similar). So my enemy goes first and uses the search action to find my location and succeds, BUT even if he knows my location, he still has disadvantage on his attacks because he cannot see me and i can see him, and in my turn i will be able to attack him with advantage because i can see him and he can't see me.
Yes. You can see in the dark and they can not. They can't see you but you can see them - you have advantage on your attacks against them and they have disadvantage against you. You both know each other's location since no one is hidden.
In the second scenario I'm hiding inside a bush or the top of a tree that counts as "dense foliage" therefore counts as a heavily obscured area, then i do two attacks with a bow against some enemiy who is quite away. Following the hide rules that attack reveals my position BUT once again i still have advantage in both attacks and any attack as long i see my enemies and remain obscured (meaning they don't see me) without the need of changing my position and/or using the hide action.
This one no. Vision effects go BOTH ways. There are only certain spells like Shadow of Moil in which specifically states that the caster is just heavily obscured to others. A heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely so if you are IN a heavily obscured area then you can't see out and the opponent can't see in. When you can't see your target and they can' see you then the advantage caused by them not being able to see you is cancelled due to the disadvantage you have for being unable to see your target. So it is a straight roll.
If you are at the edge of the heavily obscured area then your DM may decide to give you partial cover when attacked but only your first attack from being hidden would have advantage. After attacking you give yourself away, your position is known, and since you could not be heavily obscured to get advantage on your first attack, you are seen and do not have advantage on the second attack.
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However, the vision rules are one of the worst written in the game - they work ok for opaque fog/dense foliage but treat darkness the same and they can't work for all three cases at the same time and make sense so some DMs may rule things differently.
The specific line of the rule is "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. " It blocks vision entirely. So if you are in an heavily obscured area then you can't see out of it since it blocks vision entirely. The following sentence says "A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Appendix A) when trying to see something in that area." and this then becomes a source of argument. Some folks think that this is a clarification saying you are blinded looking into a heavily obscured area but that a creature in the heavily obscured area can see out. This ignores the statement that a heavily obscured area "blocks vision entirely".
The reason this is broken and controversial is that the rules as written treat darkness, opaque fog and dense foliage the same. No one expects to be able to see through opaque fog or dense foliage but normal experience indicates that you CAN see through darkness so "blocks vision entirely" becomes an issue.
This is a whole other argument and not worth getting into since it mostly comes up with Darkness and magical Darkness.
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For what i understand the "hide action" conveys your location and, unless your oponents use the "search action" and succeds or uses any other magical/supernatural mean, they cannot even target you, even if they know you are lurking near they have to guess where you could be and attack that spot, AND all this goes independent of the unseen attackers rules meaning that, knowing your location doesn't mean they have line of sight, and doesn't prevent them about having disadvantage or me having advantage following the Unseen attackers rules.
The hide action allows you to "conceal" your location in the sense that the opponent is no longer aware of what you are doing or exactly where you are.This happens when a creature makes a stealth check and their stealth roll is higher than the opponent's passive perception. When this happens, the opponent loses track of exactly where you are and what you are doing. They may know that you disappeared behind a tree but there is no indication of what you might do next or even if you are still in that location. Even if there is only one place you could be, if you are hidden the opponent doesn't know when you might attack, as a result, a ranged attack would have advantage. However, after attacking you are no longer hidden and any further attacks do not have advantage assuming you can see each other.
If you are invisible or behind total cover and hidden you can move without giving away your location and the opponent will have to guess where you might be when making an attack.
The opponent could use the search action to figure out what location you are in. If successful they will know where you are but if you were invisible, you will still be invisible and the unseen attackers rules still apply.
Keep in mind that you can NOT be hidden if you can be seen. There is no way to use stealth to cross an area where you can be seen assuming the creature is looking at the area.
Thanks for your help no matter if it's for saying that i'm wrong or for comfirmating this rules to my friends. (I'm not a good english speaker so sorry for the mistakes or the misplaced"," )
So i'm having a discussion with some friends about how this works in some scenarios, so, i'm going to say how i think this rules work and i'll be thankfull to everyone who can correct me or support me.
The rules for visibility contradict themselves and real-world physics while also being vague, ambiguous, and incomplete. Be warned.
In the first scenario my character, who has darkvision, is hiding in the dark against someone who doesn't have darkvision or any special sensorial ability (blind sight or similar).
That usually means, by definition, you've taken the Hide action, so we'll say you rolled "S" on your Stealth. You said "in the dark", so I will assume there is no cover. By definition, in order to be actually "hidden", your S must be higher than your enemy's Passive Perception, although your enemy's Passive Perception for vision specifically doesn't matter, as they automatically fail that (see below). Being "hidden" means you are by definition unheard and we have no rules on if you are unsmelled.
So my enemy goes first and uses the search action to find my location and succeds,
Your enemy is functionally blinded by the darkness and automatically fails Perception checks based on sight, but Search doesn't say it's based on sight - that's up to your DM. Your DM might rule your enemy automatically fails, period, or your DM might allow the roll, but only for non-visual senses, such as hearing and smell. The rules offer no clarity.
It's also entirely up to your DM how much information is revealed by non-visual senses. For example, even if your opponent can tell roughly where you are based on non-visual senses, they may not be able to tell how large you are, and your size is directly connected to your location. Just be aware how much of this is DM fiat.
BUT even if he knows my location, he still has disadvantage on his attacks because he cannot see me and i can see him, and in my turn i will be able to attack him with advantage because i can see him and he can't see me.
Yes to both.
In the second scenario I'm hiding inside a bush or the top of a tree that counts as "dense foliage" therefore counts as a heavily obscured area, then i do two attacks with a bow against some enemiy who is quite away.
Barring a special rule to the contrary you will be effectively Blinded by the dense foliage you are hiding in, as you have no rule preventing this. This will usually prevent you from knowing where an enemy is to attack, but as you can simply shoot empty space and hope an enemy is inside it, we'll proceed.
Note that the above rule has to do with how badly the rules for heavy obscurement violate real-world physics. I have never seen any DM in any circumstance play the heavy obscurement RAW, including official WOTC staff (including rules developers), and many adventure modules have rules that only make sense if you disregard the RAW on heavy obscurement.
Following the hide rules that attack reveals my position BUT once again i still have advantage in both attacks
As soon as the first attack is made you are no longer hiding, because your position was revealed. In this particular case hiding was not the reason you were attacking with advantage - being heavily obscured was - so you are correct. If you were not heavily obscured but were hidden, the first attack would have advantage and the second would not.
and any attack as long i see my enemies and remain obscured (meaning they don't see me) without the need of changing my position and/or using the hide action.
Correct, so long as you remain heavily obscured, you will remain unseen, and be allowed to use the rules for an unseen attacker. It can be very difficult to become heavily obscured without heavily obscuring your enemy, but because it is so powerful, methods to do so are popular.
For what i understand the "hide action" conveys your location
If you are successfully hidden you should not convey your location to anyone you're hidden from.
and, unless your oponents use the "search action" and succeds or uses any other magical/supernatural mean, they cannot even target you,
No, there are other methods. For example, you could simply be hiding in the dark and your enemy could light a torch, illuminating you. You can't hide with nothing to hide behind without a special rule saying so.
even if they know you are lurking near they have to guess where you could be and attack that spot, AND all this goes independent of the unseen attackers rules meaning that, knowing your location doesn't mean they have line of sight, and doesn't prevent them about having disadvantage or me having advantage following the Unseen attackers rules.
Line of Sight is an entirely distinct mechanic that largely has to do with total cover, not obscurement - glass will block line of sight without blocking sight, while heavy fog will block sight without blocking line of sight. That said, opaque total cover is easily the most reliable thing you can hide behind.
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So i'm having a discussion with some friends about how this works in some scenarios, so, i'm going to say how i think this rules work and i'll be thankfull to everyone who can correct me or support me.
In the first scenario my character, who has darkvision, is hiding in the dark against someone who doesn't have darkvision or any special sensorial ability (blind sight or similar). So my enemy goes first and uses the search action to find my location and succeds, BUT even if he knows my location, he still has disadvantage on his attacks because he cannot see me and i can see him, and in my turn i will be able to attack him with advantage because i can see him and he can't see me.
In the second scenario I'm hiding inside a bush or the top of a tree that counts as "dense foliage" therefore counts as a heavily obscured area, then i do two attacks with a bow against some enemiy who is quite away. Following the hide rules that attack reveals my position BUT once again i still have advantage in both attacks and any attack as long i see my enemies and remain obscured (meaning they don't see me) without the need of changing my position and/or using the hide action.
For what i understand the "hide action" conveys your location and, unless your oponents use the "search action" and succeds or uses any other magical/supernatural mean, they cannot even target you, even if they know you are lurking near they have to guess where you could be and attack that spot, AND all this goes independent of the unseen attackers rules meaning that, knowing your location doesn't mean they have line of sight, and doesn't prevent them about having disadvantage or me having advantage following the Unseen attackers rules.
"Hide""Search" and "Unseen attackers"
"Heavily obscured" and "Special localization abilities"
Thanks for your help no matter if it's for saying that i'm wrong or for comfirmating this rules to my friends. (I'm not a good english speaker so sorry for the mistakes or the misplaced"," )
First scenario, true.
If you are in heavily obscured, then you cannot see either. Your disadvantage cancels the advantage. Not unless you have some magical means of seeing through the obscurement. The way to do it would be via blindsense, tremor sense, or something similar.
Yes. You can see in the dark and they can not. They can't see you but you can see them - you have advantage on your attacks against them and they have disadvantage against you. You both know each other's location since no one is hidden.
This one no. Vision effects go BOTH ways. There are only certain spells like Shadow of Moil in which specifically states that the caster is just heavily obscured to others. A heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely so if you are IN a heavily obscured area then you can't see out and the opponent can't see in. When you can't see your target and they can' see you then the advantage caused by them not being able to see you is cancelled due to the disadvantage you have for being unable to see your target. So it is a straight roll.
If you are at the edge of the heavily obscured area then your DM may decide to give you partial cover when attacked but only your first attack from being hidden would have advantage. After attacking you give yourself away, your position is known, and since you could not be heavily obscured to get advantage on your first attack, you are seen and do not have advantage on the second attack.
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However, the vision rules are one of the worst written in the game - they work ok for opaque fog/dense foliage but treat darkness the same and they can't work for all three cases at the same time and make sense so some DMs may rule things differently.
The specific line of the rule is "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. " It blocks vision entirely. So if you are in an heavily obscured area then you can't see out of it since it blocks vision entirely. The following sentence says "A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Appendix A) when trying to see something in that area." and this then becomes a source of argument. Some folks think that this is a clarification saying you are blinded looking into a heavily obscured area but that a creature in the heavily obscured area can see out. This ignores the statement that a heavily obscured area "blocks vision entirely".
The reason this is broken and controversial is that the rules as written treat darkness, opaque fog and dense foliage the same. No one expects to be able to see through opaque fog or dense foliage but normal experience indicates that you CAN see through darkness so "blocks vision entirely" becomes an issue.
This is a whole other argument and not worth getting into since it mostly comes up with Darkness and magical Darkness.
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The hide action allows you to "conceal" your location in the sense that the opponent is no longer aware of what you are doing or exactly where you are.This happens when a creature makes a stealth check and their stealth roll is higher than the opponent's passive perception. When this happens, the opponent loses track of exactly where you are and what you are doing. They may know that you disappeared behind a tree but there is no indication of what you might do next or even if you are still in that location. Even if there is only one place you could be, if you are hidden the opponent doesn't know when you might attack, as a result, a ranged attack would have advantage. However, after attacking you are no longer hidden and any further attacks do not have advantage assuming you can see each other.
If you are invisible or behind total cover and hidden you can move without giving away your location and the opponent will have to guess where you might be when making an attack.
The opponent could use the search action to figure out what location you are in. If successful they will know where you are but if you were invisible, you will still be invisible and the unseen attackers rules still apply.
Keep in mind that you can NOT be hidden if you can be seen. There is no way to use stealth to cross an area where you can be seen assuming the creature is looking at the area.
Hope that helps ...
The rules for visibility contradict themselves and real-world physics while also being vague, ambiguous, and incomplete. Be warned.
That usually means, by definition, you've taken the Hide action, so we'll say you rolled "S" on your Stealth. You said "in the dark", so I will assume there is no cover. By definition, in order to be actually "hidden", your S must be higher than your enemy's Passive Perception, although your enemy's Passive Perception for vision specifically doesn't matter, as they automatically fail that (see below). Being "hidden" means you are by definition unheard and we have no rules on if you are unsmelled.
Your enemy is functionally blinded by the darkness and automatically fails Perception checks based on sight, but Search doesn't say it's based on sight - that's up to your DM. Your DM might rule your enemy automatically fails, period, or your DM might allow the roll, but only for non-visual senses, such as hearing and smell. The rules offer no clarity.
It's also entirely up to your DM how much information is revealed by non-visual senses. For example, even if your opponent can tell roughly where you are based on non-visual senses, they may not be able to tell how large you are, and your size is directly connected to your location. Just be aware how much of this is DM fiat.
Yes to both.
Barring a special rule to the contrary you will be effectively Blinded by the dense foliage you are hiding in, as you have no rule preventing this. This will usually prevent you from knowing where an enemy is to attack, but as you can simply shoot empty space and hope an enemy is inside it, we'll proceed.
Note that the above rule has to do with how badly the rules for heavy obscurement violate real-world physics. I have never seen any DM in any circumstance play the heavy obscurement RAW, including official WOTC staff (including rules developers), and many adventure modules have rules that only make sense if you disregard the RAW on heavy obscurement.
As soon as the first attack is made you are no longer hiding, because your position was revealed. In this particular case hiding was not the reason you were attacking with advantage - being heavily obscured was - so you are correct. If you were not heavily obscured but were hidden, the first attack would have advantage and the second would not.
Correct, so long as you remain heavily obscured, you will remain unseen, and be allowed to use the rules for an unseen attacker. It can be very difficult to become heavily obscured without heavily obscuring your enemy, but because it is so powerful, methods to do so are popular.
If you are successfully hidden you should not convey your location to anyone you're hidden from.
No, there are other methods. For example, you could simply be hiding in the dark and your enemy could light a torch, illuminating you. You can't hide with nothing to hide behind without a special rule saying so.
Line of Sight is an entirely distinct mechanic that largely has to do with total cover, not obscurement - glass will block line of sight without blocking sight, while heavy fog will block sight without blocking line of sight. That said, opaque total cover is easily the most reliable thing you can hide behind.