According to the race write-up, under languages, Thri-Kreen apparently can speak, read, and write common and one other language agreed upon by the DM and the player. But then under racial traits it states Thri-Kreen cannot speak any of the non-Thri-Kreen languages that it knows, but rather communicates via telepathy. I'm presuming their physiology doesn't allow them to vocalize in the same way most other races do. Makes sense.
Now, completely aside from the fact that there have two contradictory statements in the race write-up, where does this leave the race when it comes to spell casting? Specifically spells with a verbal component. If they can't enunciate normal language, then I would think they couldn't cast spells with a verbal component.
By RAW, specific rules always overrule general rules. But as you can see, we have two separate statements that are very specific but contradict one other. I really don't want to assume I know what the devs intended. I'd rather ask and be certain.
I understand that most of you will probably simply go with the answer of "if they choose the class, then they can cast the spells" but I'm looking for something more specific and not just a hand wave.
It might just be me. I always imagine arcane spells having their own sound, regardless of what race you were. But maybe it's just spells being spoken in whatever language you CAN speak?
Either way, I'd still like to get some clarification on the contradiction in what languages they can speak, even if I am overthinking the spell casting thing LOL
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.
Without the assistance of magic, you can’t speak the non-thri-kreen languages you know.
If we want to get into the weeds of RAW, Thrikreen are only prohibited from speaking languages - but Verbal components are clearly not part of any a language. Its therefore possible for them to perform Verbal components.
As far as the two conflicting rules - Thrikreen Telepathy is the more specific rule and wins out.
While Thri-kreen is not a language option provided by DnDBeyond the text describing the Thri-kreen race tells us they have their own spoken language:
Thri-kreen speak by clacking their mandibles and waving their antennae, indicating to other thri-kreen what they are thinking and feeling.
This is also reinforced by the Thri-kreen Telepathy trait as it tells us Thri-kreen are only unable to speak non-Thri-kreen languages. So regardless of how you resolve the conflict in the rules, and whether or not Thri-kreen know their own language, Thri-kreen definitely at least have the ability to make vocalizations sufficient to satisfy any Verbal spell components.
I've been pondering about this myself, glad for the reasoning put forth here!
Furthermore, in the stat block from the Monster Manual, the psionic versions of Thri-Kreen have spells that all have verbals components: mage hand, blur, magic weapon and invisibility, so it's hard to argue that they could cast those spells otherwise.
I doubt that suggestion can be used by a Thri-Kreen though, and spells of a similar nature.
Why not, if they can make the verbal component sounds and telepathically give the suggestion. Edit: Nothing about the verbal component says that it is strictly the “spoken” suggestion.
Indeed, Suggestion doesn't specify the suggested course of action has to be spoken allowed, or spoken in a language that target understands. A sticker spell for a Thri-keen is Command which requires both that the one word be spoken and that the creature understands the spoken language used.
I think there's a difference between RAW and RAI for this spell.
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. [...] The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.
If it's Read As Intended I think it's clear that you're supposed to express your Suggestion as part of the spell, explicitly expressing your sugggested course of action as e.g. "I suggest you hand over your belongings to me and run as far away as you can", as opposed to adding the suggestion as an afterthought, "I cast Suggestion! Okay now, let's see, uuuhhh... I guess I want you to hand me your stuff. Oh, and then you can run far away from here." Depending on your DM they'll allow the suggestion to be several sentences or not, I suppose. (EDIT: It spells out clearly that it's limited to "a sentence or two". The third sentence would be an afterthought and thus disregarded by the target.)
The point is still that the suggestion is cast as part of the spell, which won't be the case if the words of the spell is in thri-kreen and the meaning is conferred through telepathy - and that's assuming that the person you're communicating telepathically with is willing to let you speak to it telepathically. If they are not, then the suggestion is incomprehensible, unless one argues that "it's magic" and thus the target of the spell "just understands" because that's what the spell does. RAI, I find it full of holes that does not make sense unless you've already established a telepathic communication with the other creature. If your table is generous as to how easy it is to communicate telepathically, then it might very well be the case that initial communications work by default until the recipient shut down the telepathic link, but I wouldn't argue my understanding on how this works based on a lenient table.
If it's Read As Written, however, I agree that they could "make the verbal component sounds and telepathically give the suggestion", but it is spelled out that the recipient must both "hear" and "understand" you, meaning that a telepathic link is required. Whether the spell necessitates that the suggestion is spoken or not, the spell won't work without them understanding you, which for a Thri-Kreen demands either a telepathic link or some clever charades or drawings.
Hence, I find that the key issue is their telepathic ability, and if their means of using that to communicate with another creature is cut off, it means that it's unlikely - if not possible - for them to cast suggestion.
As I went over in the post above, the spell does require the target to "understand" what is being suggested, which likely would have to be through telepathy.
The same is true for command, so either a Thri-Kreen can cast both, or neither, under the same circumstances.
(While they can't speak thri-kreen, they can speak through telepathy. I suppose you can argue if that is true RAW, but RAI I would say it is the case.)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component.
Since the words used in Suggestion or the words used in Command can be ANY words that fit the description and could vary by language then it is pretty clear that whatever words are used in either Suggestion or Command can not possibly be part of "the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion" since they can be different every time, said in different languages by different spell casters.
2) No where in the rules does it say that EVERY spell caster casts the same spell with the same components. The Verbal or somatic component used for a particular spell may not be exactly the same as the verbal or somatic components used by a different spellcaster. The DM can certainly rule that all spells use the same gestures and sounds but that is not stated anywhere in the rules and some elements of the rules could be interpreted to indicate that spell components are not the same for each caster.
Copying spells ...
"Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation."
You reproduce the basic form of the spell and then work to understand the sounds or gestures required. Whatever sounds or gestures were used by the original caster will never be exactly the same as the sounds or gestures derived from reading a book. Everyone has a different voice with different pitch, everyone's hands are shaped differently with different length fingers, size of hands, length of arms - sounds and gestures will never be identical between spell casters. (At least that is how I rule it - other DMs can rule it differently because the rules do not say).
Identifying spells as they are cast from Xanathar's:
"This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting. This is true even for a character whose spellcasting ability is Wisdom or Charisma. Being able to cast spells doesn’t by itself make you adept at deducing exactly what others are doing when they cast their spells."
If the same spell used exactly the same verbal and somatic components for each spellcaster then why would a wizard ever need an arcana check to recognize another wizard casting fireball? As soon as they heard the first sound or saw the matching gesture they would immediately know it was a fireball. The rules on identifying spells only really make sense if the verbal and somatic components used for a spell vary between spell casters. The general sounds or movements might be similar but the details are different.
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So how does a Thri-Kreen wizard cast spells? Just like any other wizard. They use verbal and somatic components to evoke the desired magical effect that are similar to but not identical to other casters. Any spell that requires additional instructions like Command or Suggestion are communicated telepathically since the sounds made by these are NOT a part of evoking the magic itself but are the "payload" of the magical effect.
So the thri-Kreen makes their clicking noises to fulfill V part of the spell (actual words are not necessary for V components) while simultaneously sending telepathic commands/suggestions to the target.
I think that fits RAW and RAI. Nowhere in the spells descriptions does it say, unless I missed it, that the command or suggestion is the verbal component. Only that the spell has a Verbal component (fulfilled by the clicking) and that the command/suggestion must be given so that the target understands.
Correct, but that only works as long as the target understands, as you said. The telepathic communication is not applied by default, it always depends on the receiver whether they are willing to engage in telepathic communication. In effect, whether the spell works or not will vary greatly.
***
A spell that will by no means work for a thri-kreen on the other hand, unless the target knows thri-kreen or the thri-kreen has a means of verbally expressing themselves in another language, perhaps through a minor illusion using the sound option, is magic mouth.
You implant a message within an object in range, a message that is uttered when a trigger condition is met. [...] Then speak the message [...]. Finally, determine the circumstance that will trigger the spell to deliver your message.
When that circumstance occurs, a magical mouth appears on the object and recites the message in your voice and at the same volume you spoke.
All in all I don't think they really considered the implications for a spellcasting Thri-Kreen Player character. The psionic version of the monster stat block cast spells without using components at all, for example:
Innate Spellcasting (Psionics). The thri-kreen’s innate spellcasting ability is Wisdom. The thri-kreen can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:
Correct, but that only works as long as the target understands, as you said. The telepathic communication is not applied by default, it always depends on the receiver whether they are willing to engage in telepathic communication. In effect, whether the spell works or not will vary greatly.
***
A spell that will by no means work for a thri-kreen on the other hand, unless the target knows thri-kreen or the thri-kreen has a means of verbally expressing themselves in another language, perhaps through a minor illusion using the sound option, is magic mouth.
You implant a message within an object in range, a message that is uttered when a trigger condition is met. [...] Then speak the message [...]. Finally, determine the circumstance that will trigger the spell to deliver your message.
When that circumstance occurs, a magical mouth appears on the object and recites the message in your voice and at the same volume you spoke.
I completely missed that their telepathic ability requires the recipient to be willing. On the plus side, if the UA version of Telepathy stands, and all telepathic abilities follow that rule there is no "willing" requirement. But your point about Magic Mouth still stands. But they could rewrite that spell, and others that could be affected, in the 2024 PHB.
The willing aspect of Thri-Kreen telepathy is a wrench in the works for any Thri-Kreen trying to communicate with any creature that might in any way be hostile or not interested in talking. How does a DM determine if a random creature is interested in talking or not? Or willing to listen to the Thri-Kreen?
Why can a Thri-Kreen only talk to willing creatures while everyone else in the universe is able to try to talk to anyone they like? If a Thri-Kreen can't talk to a creature that isn't willing, then how do they start a conversation with anyone since if a creature doesn't know that the Thri-Kreen communicate by telepathy then there is no way for that creature to know that they need to be willing to communicate. Unless the Thri-Kreen can communicate a basic invitation to talk to anyone even unwilling creatures then there are very few ways they can start a new conversation unless that creature already knows about Thri-Kreen and is then willing to listen.
Anyway, the willing aspect makes casting spells with instructions associated with it like Suggestion and Command much more challenging since the creatures affected are much less likely to be willing to listen.
No problem, it's an easy thing to miss as outside of casting spells it's up to the DM to decide. I'm also considering NPC thri-kreens here, I should state.
Where can I read about the UA version of Telepathy? I'd hope that they figure out a way for thri-kreen telepathy to either work without willing recipients, or for a line noting that a telepathic creature's efforts to communicate will be recieved by the target, as a sort of presence in their mind, even when they're unwilling - simply to make sure that it's not an all-or-nothing ability.
David42, exactly, it's a massive pain. The DM can base their decision for NPCs to be "willing" on pretty much anything, but that's putting way too much responsibility on the DM in my opinion - there should be guidelines, or (as I said in the post above) there should be a sort of mental invitation or question that is understood by the recipient before true communication can begin.
No problem, it's an easy thing to miss as outside of casting spells it's up to the DM to decide. I'm also considering NPC thri-kreens here, I should state.
Where can I read about the UA version of Telepathy? I'd hope that they figure out a way for thri-kreen telepathy to either work without willing recipients, or for a line noting that a telepathic creature's efforts to communicate will be recieved by the target, as a sort of presence in their mind, even when they're unwilling - simply to make sure that it's not an all-or-nothing ability.
Telepathy is in the glossary of the Druid/Paladin UA. I’m assuming since they are putting it in the rules glossary it will be standardized across features/creatures/species
Telepathy as a general "language" is detailed in the Monster Manual introduction.
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According to the race write-up, under languages, Thri-Kreen apparently can speak, read, and write common and one other language agreed upon by the DM and the player. But then under racial traits it states Thri-Kreen cannot speak any of the non-Thri-Kreen languages that it knows, but rather communicates via telepathy. I'm presuming their physiology doesn't allow them to vocalize in the same way most other races do. Makes sense.
Now, completely aside from the fact that there have two contradictory statements in the race write-up, where does this leave the race when it comes to spell casting? Specifically spells with a verbal component. If they can't enunciate normal language, then I would think they couldn't cast spells with a verbal component.
By RAW, specific rules always overrule general rules. But as you can see, we have two separate statements that are very specific but contradict one other. I really don't want to assume I know what the devs intended. I'd rather ask and be certain.
I understand that most of you will probably simply go with the answer of "if they choose the class, then they can cast the spells" but I'm looking for something more specific and not just a hand wave.
It might just be me. I always imagine arcane spells having their own sound, regardless of what race you were. But maybe it's just spells being spoken in whatever language you CAN speak?
Either way, I'd still like to get some clarification on the contradiction in what languages they can speak, even if I am overthinking the spell casting thing LOL
Shawn D. Robertson
"Deride not the differing views of others, for it is in thoughtful and considerate conversation we find our greatest friends."
~Me~
If we want to get into the weeds of RAW, Thrikreen are only prohibited from speaking languages - but Verbal components are clearly not part of any a language. Its therefore possible for them to perform Verbal components.
As far as the two conflicting rules - Thrikreen Telepathy is the more specific rule and wins out.
While Thri-kreen is not a language option provided by DnDBeyond the text describing the Thri-kreen race tells us they have their own spoken language:
This is also reinforced by the Thri-kreen Telepathy trait as it tells us Thri-kreen are only unable to speak non-Thri-kreen languages. So regardless of how you resolve the conflict in the rules, and whether or not Thri-kreen know their own language, Thri-kreen definitely at least have the ability to make vocalizations sufficient to satisfy any Verbal spell components.
I appreciate both of these answers! Thank you guys for weighing in.
Shawn D. Robertson
"Deride not the differing views of others, for it is in thoughtful and considerate conversation we find our greatest friends."
~Me~
I've been pondering about this myself, glad for the reasoning put forth here!
Furthermore, in the stat block from the Monster Manual, the psionic versions of Thri-Kreen have spells that all have verbals components: mage hand, blur, magic weapon and invisibility, so it's hard to argue that they could cast those spells otherwise.
I doubt that suggestion can be used by a Thri-Kreen though, and spells of a similar nature.
Why not, if they can make the verbal component sounds and telepathically give the suggestion. Edit: Nothing about the verbal component says that it is strictly the “spoken” suggestion.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Indeed, Suggestion doesn't specify the suggested course of action has to be spoken allowed, or spoken in a language that target understands. A sticker spell for a Thri-keen is Command which requires both that the one word be spoken and that the creature understands the spoken language used.
I think there's a difference between RAW and RAI for this spell.
If it's Read As Intended I think it's clear that you're supposed to express your Suggestion as part of the spell, explicitly expressing your sugggested course of action as e.g. "I suggest you hand over your belongings to me and run as far away as you can", as opposed to adding the suggestion as an afterthought, "I cast Suggestion! Okay now, let's see, uuuhhh... I guess I want you to hand me your stuff. Oh, and then you can run far away from here."
Depending on your DM they'll allow the suggestion to be several sentences or not, I suppose.(EDIT: It spells out clearly that it's limited to "a sentence or two". The third sentence would be an afterthought and thus disregarded by the target.)
The point is still that the suggestion is cast as part of the spell, which won't be the case if the words of the spell is in thri-kreen and the meaning is conferred through telepathy - and that's assuming that the person you're communicating telepathically with is willing to let you speak to it telepathically. If they are not, then the suggestion is incomprehensible, unless one argues that "it's magic" and thus the target of the spell "just understands" because that's what the spell does.
RAI, I find it full of holes that does not make sense unless you've already established a telepathic communication with the other creature. If your table is generous as to how easy it is to communicate telepathically, then it might very well be the case that initial communications work by default until the recipient shut down the telepathic link, but I wouldn't argue my understanding on how this works based on a lenient table.
If it's Read As Written, however, I agree that they could "make the verbal component sounds and telepathically give the suggestion", but it is spelled out that the recipient must both "hear" and "understand" you, meaning that a telepathic link is required. Whether the spell necessitates that the suggestion is spoken or not, the spell won't work without them understanding you, which for a Thri-Kreen demands either a telepathic link or some clever charades or drawings.
Hence, I find that the key issue is their telepathic ability, and if their means of using that to communicate with another creature is cut off, it means that it's unlikely - if not possible - for them to cast suggestion.
As I went over in the post above, the spell does require the target to "understand" what is being suggested, which likely would have to be through telepathy.
The same is true for command, so either a Thri-Kreen can cast both, or neither, under the same circumstances.
(While they can't speak thri-kreen, they can speak through telepathy. I suppose you can argue if that is true RAW, but RAI I would say it is the case.)
Just to chime in ...
1) Verbal components ...
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component.
Since the words used in Suggestion or the words used in Command can be ANY words that fit the description and could vary by language then it is pretty clear that whatever words are used in either Suggestion or Command can not possibly be part of "the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion" since they can be different every time, said in different languages by different spell casters.
2) No where in the rules does it say that EVERY spell caster casts the same spell with the same components. The Verbal or somatic component used for a particular spell may not be exactly the same as the verbal or somatic components used by a different spellcaster. The DM can certainly rule that all spells use the same gestures and sounds but that is not stated anywhere in the rules and some elements of the rules could be interpreted to indicate that spell components are not the same for each caster.
Copying spells ...
"Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation."
You reproduce the basic form of the spell and then work to understand the sounds or gestures required. Whatever sounds or gestures were used by the original caster will never be exactly the same as the sounds or gestures derived from reading a book. Everyone has a different voice with different pitch, everyone's hands are shaped differently with different length fingers, size of hands, length of arms - sounds and gestures will never be identical between spell casters. (At least that is how I rule it - other DMs can rule it differently because the rules do not say).
Identifying spells as they are cast from Xanathar's:
"This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting. This is true even for a character whose spellcasting ability is Wisdom or Charisma. Being able to cast spells doesn’t by itself make you adept at deducing exactly what others are doing when they cast their spells."
If the same spell used exactly the same verbal and somatic components for each spellcaster then why would a wizard ever need an arcana check to recognize another wizard casting fireball? As soon as they heard the first sound or saw the matching gesture they would immediately know it was a fireball. The rules on identifying spells only really make sense if the verbal and somatic components used for a spell vary between spell casters. The general sounds or movements might be similar but the details are different.
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So how does a Thri-Kreen wizard cast spells? Just like any other wizard. They use verbal and somatic components to evoke the desired magical effect that are similar to but not identical to other casters. Any spell that requires additional instructions like Command or Suggestion are communicated telepathically since the sounds made by these are NOT a part of evoking the magic itself but are the "payload" of the magical effect.
So the thri-Kreen makes their clicking noises to fulfill V part of the spell (actual words are not necessary for V components) while simultaneously sending telepathic commands/suggestions to the target.
I think that fits RAW and RAI. Nowhere in the spells descriptions does it say, unless I missed it, that the command or suggestion is the verbal component. Only that the spell has a Verbal component (fulfilled by the clicking) and that the command/suggestion must be given so that the target understands.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Correct, but that only works as long as the target understands, as you said. The telepathic communication is not applied by default, it always depends on the receiver whether they are willing to engage in telepathic communication. In effect, whether the spell works or not will vary greatly.
***
A spell that will by no means work for a thri-kreen on the other hand, unless the target knows thri-kreen or the thri-kreen has a means of verbally expressing themselves in another language, perhaps through a minor illusion using the sound option, is magic mouth.
All in all I don't think they really considered the implications for a spellcasting Thri-Kreen Player character. The psionic version of the monster stat block cast spells without using components at all, for example:
I completely missed that their telepathic ability requires the recipient to be willing. On the plus side, if the UA version of Telepathy stands, and all telepathic abilities follow that rule there is no "willing" requirement. But your point about Magic Mouth still stands. But they could rewrite that spell, and others that could be affected, in the 2024 PHB.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The willing aspect of Thri-Kreen telepathy is a wrench in the works for any Thri-Kreen trying to communicate with any creature that might in any way be hostile or not interested in talking. How does a DM determine if a random creature is interested in talking or not? Or willing to listen to the Thri-Kreen?
Why can a Thri-Kreen only talk to willing creatures while everyone else in the universe is able to try to talk to anyone they like? If a Thri-Kreen can't talk to a creature that isn't willing, then how do they start a conversation with anyone since if a creature doesn't know that the Thri-Kreen communicate by telepathy then there is no way for that creature to know that they need to be willing to communicate. Unless the Thri-Kreen can communicate a basic invitation to talk to anyone even unwilling creatures then there are very few ways they can start a new conversation unless that creature already knows about Thri-Kreen and is then willing to listen.
Anyway, the willing aspect makes casting spells with instructions associated with it like Suggestion and Command much more challenging since the creatures affected are much less likely to be willing to listen.
No problem, it's an easy thing to miss as outside of casting spells it's up to the DM to decide. I'm also considering NPC thri-kreens here, I should state.
Where can I read about the UA version of Telepathy? I'd hope that they figure out a way for thri-kreen telepathy to either work without willing recipients, or for a line noting that a telepathic creature's efforts to communicate will be recieved by the target, as a sort of presence in their mind, even when they're unwilling - simply to make sure that it's not an all-or-nothing ability.
David42, exactly, it's a massive pain. The DM can base their decision for NPCs to be "willing" on pretty much anything, but that's putting way too much responsibility on the DM in my opinion - there should be guidelines, or (as I said in the post above) there should be a sort of mental invitation or question that is understood by the recipient before true communication can begin.
Telepathy is in the glossary of the Druid/Paladin UA. I’m assuming since they are putting it in the rules glossary it will be standardized across features/creatures/species
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Telepathy as a general "language" is detailed in the Monster Manual introduction.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.