Hare-trigger says "You can add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls," while Aura of the Sentinel says "When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus." I checked on Reddit to see if they stack, and the general consensus is that they do, but on my DNDBeyond character sheet they don't appear to. Not sure if that's a programming error or if it was decided that these abilities are mutually exclusive. Any thoughts?
Hare-trigger says "You can add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls," while Aura of the Sentinel says "When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus." I checked on Reddit to see if they stack, and the general consensus is that they do, but on my DNDBeyond character sheet they don't appear to. Not sure if that's a programming error or if it was decided that these abilities are mutually exclusive. Any thoughts?
Hmm actually I found this thread which discussed this very thing.
Does seem like it's not as cut-and-dried as considering it adding your proficiency to your initiative since the aura specifically refers to it as a 'bonus equal to your proficiency' instead of 'adding your proficiency'.
I would argue that a "a bonus equal to your proficiency" and "proficiency bonus" are just rewordings of the same thing, and thus shouldn't stack as per the rules on proficiency. This is mostly because proficiency bonus is never capitalized. If it were the other way I would probably argue that Proficiency Bonus is a specific thing and shouldn't be confused with a bonus equal to proficiency, but as it stands they really seem like two different ways of wording the same thing. That being said, there aren't any rules against stacking your proficiency bonus and somebody else's; if you had Hare-trigger and somebody else had Aura of the Sentinel in your group, you could absolutely add those two numbers together. This ruling also allows a paladin/rogue to use Reliable Talent with Aura of the Sentinel to never roll below 10 on initiative.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I wouldn't let them stack. A bonus equal to your proficiency bonus to me is akin to adding it, which can’t be done more than once to a roll. When the rules intend to double it, they specifically say so.
I have seen at least one discussion on these forums where "a bonus equal to your proficiency" was treated differently from "your proficiency bonus," but I don't remember the exact context or the reason it was significant.
If memory serves, I think part of the issue is that your proficiency bonus only applies to specific rolls which are called out in the rules which you may be proficient in. Anything else, you aren't proficient in, so the bonus is not due to proficiency so it is a bonus that just happens to equal that value.
In this case, "a bonus equal to your proficiency" might refer to the PB of the PC generating the Aura, rather than the beneficiaries of the aura (although usually they will all have the same PB anyway).
Seems a little weird that a harengon party member could benefit from the aura even though they have the same proficiency bonus but the person with the aura wouldn't.
"A bonus equal to proficiency" does stack with something that adds proficiency. Just like with the paladins Aura of Protection adding "a bonus equal to your charisma bonus to all saves" still adds Charisma on top of the existing charisma bonus in their charisma saves. There's no reason they shouldn't stack, given there's already existing precedent in similar abilities.
"A bonus equal to proficiency" does stack with something that adds proficiency. Just like with the paladins Aura of Protection adding "a bonus equal to your charisma bonus to all saves" still adds Charisma on top of the existing charisma bonus in their charisma saves. There's no reason they shouldn't stack, given there's already existing precedent in similar abilities.
I share the same opinion.
Aura of the Sentinel and Aura of Protection have indeed similar wording (emphasis mine):
Aura of Protection Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Charisma modifier (with a minimum bonus of +1). You must be conscious to grant this bonus.
Aura of the Sentinel At 7th level, you emit an aura of alertness while you aren't incapacitated. When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus.
For the same reason, I also think a Paladin could apply their Charisma modifier twice to the saving throw when using Aura of Protection: once from their own Charisma modifier and once from an external bonus (the Aura's bonus), which would incidentally be the same number as their Charisma modifier.
"A bonus equal to proficiency" does stack with something that adds proficiency. Just like with the paladins Aura of Protection adding "a bonus equal to your charisma bonus to all saves" still adds Charisma on top of the existing charisma bonus in their charisma saves. There's no reason they shouldn't stack, given there's already existing precedent in similar abilities.
That's very much a different situation, though. There isn't any rule saying that you can't add your Charisma bonus to a saving throw twice, but there is a rule saying that you can't add your proficiency bonus to a roll twice. The issue isn't a general case of adding something twice, it's a specific case of trying to add something twice in contrary to the specific rule saying you can't add this one thing twice. I'd call that a reason they shouldn't stack, and I don't see why precedent would really matter.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I’d be inclined to treat your PB and a “bonus equal to your PB” as two different things. Mathematically,, equality is not the same as identity. Perhaps PHB 2024 will disambiguate this.
I’d be inclined to treat your PB and a “bonus equal to your PB” as two different things. Mathematically,, equality is not the same as identity. Perhaps PHB 2024 will disambiguate this.
Mathematically, equality actually is the same as identity. It's called the substitution property. Not saying that it necessarily applies there, but if the rule is that y (a bonus) = x (your proficiency bonus), you can replace any mentions of y with x.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I have seen at least one discussion on these forums where "a bonus equal to your proficiency" was treated differently from "your proficiency bonus," but I don't remember the exact context or the reason it was significant.
If memory serves, I think part of the issue is that your proficiency bonus only applies to specific rolls which are called out in the rules which you may be proficient in. Anything else, you aren't proficient in, so the bonus is not due to proficiency so it is a bonus that just happens to equal that value.
I think that this was a really good explanation about why certain Features are written a certain way and why these two Features from the Original Post should stack.
I'm firmly in the camp that "gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus" is not the same thing as actually adding your proficiency bonus to the initiative roll. Such a bonus could apply to all sorts of scenarios which do not normally involve proficiency.
For example, a Feature of a magical weapon might say that when you attack with that weapon and hit a creature you do extra fire damage equal to your proficiency bonus. But normally a proficiency bonus is never added to a damage roll, only to the attack roll. So, in this case, the damage roll would be getting a totally different bonus which just happens to have the same value as your proficiency bonus.
Or, for an example that's closer to the original scenario, perhaps a class feature could be written that improves the accuracy of an attack by sacrificing one of your attacks if you have the Extra Attack feature. So, instead of being able to make two attacks, you choose to concentrate on making one attack really well. When you do, your attack roll gains an additional modifier that is equal to your proficiency bonus.
Such Features are carefully written to work within the rules in a certain way. I do not think that it's an accident that Hare-Trigger and Aura of the Sentinel are written the way that they are.
In this particular case I agree that they would stack when the Harengon is not the paladin.
The proficiency bonus of the paladin emitting the Aura depends on their level. The proficiency bonus of the Harengon making the die roll depends on that character's level - not on the level of the paladin. They may both be proficiency bonus values and may even have the same numerical value but they are not the SAME proficiency bonus value since they come from two different characters.
The possibly problematic case happens when the Harengon is the paladin. The rule instructs that the proficiency bonus be added a second time since the Harengon already adds THEIR proficiency bonus to their initiative.
"Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once."
Hare-Trigger
"You can add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls."
Aura of Sentinel
"You emit an aura of alertness while you aren’t incapacitated. When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus."
Is a "bonus to your initiative equal to your proficiency bonus" DIFFERENT from adding your proficiency bonus? In both cases, the numerical value of the character's proficiency bonus is added to their die roll.
This also affects whether the ability stacks with a bard's Jack of All Trades ability ..
"Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus."
Does a Harengon Watchers paladin/bard mutliclass add 2.5 x proficiency bonus to their initiative or only 1x proficiency bonus? Does a non-Harengon watchers paladin/bard add 1.5 x their proficiency bonus or do they add 1x their proficiency bonus?
If there is another game feature that allows a character to add a "bonus equal to their proficiency bonus" that has a different name ... would that stack with Aura of Sentinel and/or Harengon Hare-Trigger.
Reading "a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" as NOT adding "your proficiency bonus" is more of a legalistic interpretation of the 5e rules than they were really intended for .. should we apply the same legalistic approach to ALL of the rules?
Ultimately, it is a DM call. Adding the proficiency more than once seems to require a rather legalistic interpretation of the rule - an approach that is often not supported by the language used to write the rule book.
P.S. On the other hand, these are the same rules where a melee weapon attack and an attack with a melee weapon have quite different meanings.
For me, David42, the case involving bard's Jack of All Trades + Hare-Trigger is different, because you're clearly adding your own proficiency bonus more than once. But I understand your point of view!
Hare-trigger says "You can add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls," while Aura of the Sentinel says "When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus." I checked on Reddit to see if they stack, and the general consensus is that they do, but on my DNDBeyond character sheet they don't appear to. Not sure if that's a programming error or if it was decided that these abilities are mutually exclusive. Any thoughts?
Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once.
Hmm actually I found this thread which discussed this very thing.
Does seem like it's not as cut-and-dried as considering it adding your proficiency to your initiative since the aura specifically refers to it as a 'bonus equal to your proficiency' instead of 'adding your proficiency'.
I would argue that a "a bonus equal to your proficiency" and "proficiency bonus" are just rewordings of the same thing, and thus shouldn't stack as per the rules on proficiency. This is mostly because proficiency bonus is never capitalized. If it were the other way I would probably argue that Proficiency Bonus is a specific thing and shouldn't be confused with a bonus equal to proficiency, but as it stands they really seem like two different ways of wording the same thing. That being said, there aren't any rules against stacking your proficiency bonus and somebody else's; if you had Hare-trigger and somebody else had Aura of the Sentinel in your group, you could absolutely add those two numbers together. This ruling also allows a paladin/rogue to use Reliable Talent with Aura of the Sentinel to never roll below 10 on initiative.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I wouldn't let them stack. A bonus equal to your proficiency bonus to me is akin to adding it, which can’t be done more than once to a roll. When the rules intend to double it, they specifically say so.
I have seen at least one discussion on these forums where "a bonus equal to your proficiency" was treated differently from "your proficiency bonus," but I don't remember the exact context or the reason it was significant.
If memory serves, I think part of the issue is that your proficiency bonus only applies to specific rolls which are called out in the rules which you may be proficient in. Anything else, you aren't proficient in, so the bonus is not due to proficiency so it is a bonus that just happens to equal that value.
In this case, "a bonus equal to your proficiency" might refer to the PB of the PC generating the Aura, rather than the beneficiaries of the aura (although usually they will all have the same PB anyway).
Seems a little weird that a harengon party member could benefit from the aura even though they have the same proficiency bonus but the person with the aura wouldn't.
"A bonus equal to proficiency" does stack with something that adds proficiency. Just like with the paladins Aura of Protection adding "a bonus equal to your charisma bonus to all saves" still adds Charisma on top of the existing charisma bonus in their charisma saves. There's no reason they shouldn't stack, given there's already existing precedent in similar abilities.
I share the same opinion.
Aura of the Sentinel and Aura of Protection have indeed similar wording (emphasis mine):
For the same reason, I also think a Paladin could apply their Charisma modifier twice to the saving throw when using Aura of Protection: once from their own Charisma modifier and once from an external bonus (the Aura's bonus), which would incidentally be the same number as their Charisma modifier.
I also agree. I know i contradict what i said in 2022, but i changed my mind on this subject. :)
Gaining a bonus equal to X, is not the same as adding the bonus or modifier itself.
That's very much a different situation, though. There isn't any rule saying that you can't add your Charisma bonus to a saving throw twice, but there is a rule saying that you can't add your proficiency bonus to a roll twice. The issue isn't a general case of adding something twice, it's a specific case of trying to add something twice in contrary to the specific rule saying you can't add this one thing twice. I'd call that a reason they shouldn't stack, and I don't see why precedent would really matter.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I’d be inclined to treat your PB and a “bonus equal to your PB” as two different things. Mathematically,, equality is not the same as identity.
Perhaps PHB 2024 will disambiguate this.
Mathematically, equality actually is the same as identity. It's called the substitution property. Not saying that it necessarily applies there, but if the rule is that y (a bonus) = x (your proficiency bonus), you can replace any mentions of y with x.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I don't know about same identity, but mathematically ''is equal to'' is an equivalence relation between two values.
I think that this was a really good explanation about why certain Features are written a certain way and why these two Features from the Original Post should stack.
I'm firmly in the camp that "gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus" is not the same thing as actually adding your proficiency bonus to the initiative roll. Such a bonus could apply to all sorts of scenarios which do not normally involve proficiency.
For example, a Feature of a magical weapon might say that when you attack with that weapon and hit a creature you do extra fire damage equal to your proficiency bonus. But normally a proficiency bonus is never added to a damage roll, only to the attack roll. So, in this case, the damage roll would be getting a totally different bonus which just happens to have the same value as your proficiency bonus.
Or, for an example that's closer to the original scenario, perhaps a class feature could be written that improves the accuracy of an attack by sacrificing one of your attacks if you have the Extra Attack feature. So, instead of being able to make two attacks, you choose to concentrate on making one attack really well. When you do, your attack roll gains an additional modifier that is equal to your proficiency bonus.
Such Features are carefully written to work within the rules in a certain way. I do not think that it's an accident that Hare-Trigger and Aura of the Sentinel are written the way that they are.
In this particular case I agree that they would stack when the Harengon is not the paladin.
The proficiency bonus of the paladin emitting the Aura depends on their level. The proficiency bonus of the Harengon making the die roll depends on that character's level - not on the level of the paladin. They may both be proficiency bonus values and may even have the same numerical value but they are not the SAME proficiency bonus value since they come from two different characters.
The possibly problematic case happens when the Harengon is the paladin. The rule instructs that the proficiency bonus be added a second time since the Harengon already adds THEIR proficiency bonus to their initiative.
"Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once."
Hare-Trigger
"You can add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls."
Aura of Sentinel
"You emit an aura of alertness while you aren’t incapacitated. When you and any creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you roll initiative, you all gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus."
Is a "bonus to your initiative equal to your proficiency bonus" DIFFERENT from adding your proficiency bonus? In both cases, the numerical value of the character's proficiency bonus is added to their die roll.
This also affects whether the ability stacks with a bard's Jack of All Trades ability ..
"Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus."
Does a Harengon Watchers paladin/bard mutliclass add 2.5 x proficiency bonus to their initiative or only 1x proficiency bonus? Does a non-Harengon watchers paladin/bard add 1.5 x their proficiency bonus or do they add 1x their proficiency bonus?
If there is another game feature that allows a character to add a "bonus equal to their proficiency bonus" that has a different name ... would that stack with Aura of Sentinel and/or Harengon Hare-Trigger.
Reading "a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus" as NOT adding "your proficiency bonus" is more of a legalistic interpretation of the 5e rules than they were really intended for .. should we apply the same legalistic approach to ALL of the rules?
Ultimately, it is a DM call. Adding the proficiency more than once seems to require a rather legalistic interpretation of the rule - an approach that is often not supported by the language used to write the rule book.
P.S. On the other hand, these are the same rules where a melee weapon attack and an attack with a melee weapon have quite different meanings.
For me, David42, the case involving bard's Jack of All Trades + Hare-Trigger is different, because you're clearly adding your own proficiency bonus more than once. But I understand your point of view!
Regarding the original question, I found this post on Reddit, and I think it's worth sharing here: Does the Harengon benefit from Aura of the Sentinel?