So it came to my attention, that apparently, you can add your Dex modifer (and any other modifiers like Sharpshooter if you choose) to Lightning Arrow's damage, but only to the main target, and I assume only if it hits. I've seen people constantly use this tweet by Jeremy Crawford as evidence of such...though I feel as though this is somewhat ambiguous, as he states "and that aren't specific to the weapon you're using," and I don't know if Dex (or any other modifier for that matter) would fall in or out of that category. I still occasionally see this debated, of whether you add modifiers to the main target of the spell or not.
I'm wondering what is the general consensus here is. Thanks!
You don't need to rely on JC's tweets to realize that you may get to add bonuses to the damage of the attack portion of Lightning Arrow. The reason for this is that you are still making a Ranged Weapon Attack and so follow the rules for resolving weapon damage here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#DamageRolls
You get to add your ability modifier and things like Sharpshooter to the damage because they are bonuses to the Attack's damage, not the Weapon's damage. This may seem like an arbitrary distinction but it is why you can't use Divine Smite with Unarmed Strikes, as explained in three SAC here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA253
Lightning Arrow specifies that it replaces the weapons damage, not the attacks damage. So if you had an 18 Strength, a handaxe, and a +4 proficiency bonus you could cast Lightning Arrow and then throw your handaxe. You would make the attack as normal using your +8 to hit (+4 from pb and +4 from str). Then when you roll damage you would roll 4d8 and add +4 from strength.
I agree, though it's nice to have JC's tweet as confirmation. I've seen a few people here claim otherwise, but I guess they are just wrong. He also mentions, "that aren't specific to the weapon you're using." What would be an example of that?
Also if I miss the main target, and they instead take the 2d8, would I still apply the damage modifiers or only if the attack hits?
To be fair the distinction between a weapon's damage and an attack's damage is an odd one to make. If it weren't for the SAC I would think it fair to consider them synonyms. It is also not perfectly clear which one is being referred to in some cases, like a basic magic weapon for example: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/magic-items-u-z#Weapon12Or3
I would consider the bonus to damage part of the Weapon's damage, but I don't really have good justification for this. This lines up with JC's tweet but that is it.
As for what happens if your weapon attack misses? That is a sticker point as attacks normally do no damage on a miss, so Lightning Arrow doing half damage on a miss is purely an effect of the spell. I would say it is just half 4d8 with no modifiers on a miss for this reason but I could see it being argued either way.
The AoE effect after the attack however doesn't get any modifiers as it calls for a saving throw, rather than an attack roll, and thus is not a weapon attack.
He also mentions, "that aren't specific to the weapon you're using." What would be an example of that?
Since Lightning Arrow replaces the normal weapon damage with its damage, he's saying 'roll 4d8+DEX but don't add +1 damage from your +1 arrow because the lightning arrow overrides that.' The weapon attack works as normal, so using a +1 bow or arrow would still get a +1 to attack, but if the weapon provides any modifications to damage calculations, don't use them.
Yeah, I assumed the AOE part didn't get any bonus modifiers.
Basically, if I use a long bow, instead of it's normal (1d8 + DEX) damage, it's a 4d8 + DEX on the main target only, and only if the attack hits, otherwise it's just a flat 2d8.
He also mentions, "that aren't specific to the weapon you're using." What would be an example of that?
Since Lightning Arrow replaces the normal weapon damage with its damage, he's saying 'roll 4d8+DEX but don't add +1 damage from your +1 arrow because the lightning arrow overrides that.' The weapon attack works as normal, so using a +1 bow or arrow would still get a +1 to attack, but if the weapon provides any modifications to damage calculations, don't use them.
Is there something that does specifically add a +1 to specifically a bow? Sorry, admittedly, I am still somewhat new to DND (For first time, I played through a campaign with a group of friends that started a year ago, and we just started a new one).
Is there something that does specifically add a +1 to specifically a bow? Sorry, admittedly, I am still somewhat new to DND (For first time, I played through a campaign with a group of friends that started a year ago, and we just started a new one).
Thanks for the responses!
Yeah, a weapon, +1 that's a shortbow, for example.
Oh yeah, a magic weapon, I completely forgot those were even a thing, our group has yet to encounter any thus far. That would make sense with respect to Lightning Arrow.
So it came to my attention, that apparently, you can add your Dex modifer (and any other modifiers like Sharpshooter if you choose) to Lightning Arrow's damage, but only to the main target, and I assume only if it hits. I've seen people constantly use this tweet by Jeremy Crawford as evidence of such...though I feel as though this is somewhat ambiguous, as he states "and that aren't specific to the weapon you're using," and I don't know if Dex (or any other modifier for that matter) would fall in or out of that category. I still occasionally see this debated, of whether you add modifiers to the main target of the spell or not.
I'm wondering what is the general consensus here is. Thanks!
There is no general consensus on Lightning Arrow - the spell is not written to obey the game rules and has never been errataed, so every DM rules independently on it. Here are the issues:
"weapon's normal damage", a term referenced by the spell, is not a game term. There is no weapon in the game that has "normal damage".
One way to fix this is by deleting the word "normal", changing the relevant sentence to "The target takes 4d8 lightning damage on a hit, or half as much damage on a miss, instead of the weapon’s damage."
Weapon damage is defined, although not well-defined, in the PHB. This ruling is essentially replacing the weapon's damage entry in the PHB with a new amount, without any other changes. Under this ruling, you add modifiers to the 4d8 like you do to the 1/1d4/1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 (for a musket) as normal for a ranged weapon attack's damage roll. You would add the +1 from a +1 weapon, because the lightning damage is being treated as weapon damage, and the +1 weapon enchantment explicitly adds to weapon damage.
The only flaw in this ruling is that there's no "tight" way to word it - because the PHB doesn't assign a game term to a weapon's listed damage in the weapons table, you may have to explain to a confused PC how this works.
Another way to fix this is to guess at what "weapon's normal damage" is meant to mean and how it differs from "weapon's damage". This is how you get arguments about magic items like a +1 bow; note that magic items can make this arbitrarily messy. Here are examples (this list is non-exhaustive):
+1/+2/+3 weapon (this grants a bonus to the wielder's damage roll made "with the weapon").
Slumbering Dragon's Wrath/Vicious weapon (on a 20 to hit, this makes a target or targets take additional damage).
Stirring Dragon's Wrath weapon, which combines items 1 and 2 here, although instead of a bonus to the damage roll, the on-hit damage is extra damage the weapon deals. Wakened and Ascendant Dragon's Wrath make the numbers bigger but don't introduce anything new that's relevant here.
Ruidium or Dragon Wing weapon, which applies "extra" damage but refers to it as damage the target takes, not damage the weapon deals.
Ammunition can be enchanted separately. An Arrow of Slaying waits for something to take "damage from the arrow" in order to apply an effect (which is extra damage mitigated by a Con save).
Special Mention: Corpse Slayer weapons make the attack deal "extra" damage, so Lightning Arrow should not modify this damage if you're holding sacrosanct its language about modifying weapon damage.
Special Mention: This is from a specific module, but a Javelin or Spear of Backbiting from Tales from the Yawning Portal deals (as in the weapon deals, not the attack deals) "one extra die of damage".
Spells like Elemental Weapon (the weapon deals extra damage), Magic Weapon (the weapon has a bonus to damage rolls), and Holy Weapon (attacks made with the weapon deal extra damage) may have arbitrarily bizarre interactions with your interpretation. Remember, all of these spells and others like it can stack (you just need additional casters for additional spells that require concentration) and can generally be cast on magic weapons which they will also stack with.
Spells can get even weirder. Magic Stone can enchant sling ammunition and you can fire Magic Stone ammo and hit while Lightning Arrow is up. Magic Stone is also a problem spell that doesn't obey the normal rules of the game, which is why I'm emphasizing it here.
Another way to fix this is by changing "weapon's normal" to "attack's". Under this ruling, the spell replaces the damage after modifiers are applied, so the modifiers aren't applied to the 4d8. This ruling is the most drastic modification listed in this post, but because attack damage is very well-defined in the rules, it allows for very "tight" wording that avoids PC confusion. It also makes the spell do anemic damage in general, which may be intended if you're trying to nerf it.
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So it came to my attention, that apparently, you can add your Dex modifer (and any other modifiers like Sharpshooter if you choose) to Lightning Arrow's damage, but only to the main target, and I assume only if it hits. I've seen people constantly use this tweet by Jeremy Crawford as evidence of such...though I feel as though this is somewhat ambiguous, as he states "and that aren't specific to the weapon you're using," and I don't know if Dex (or any other modifier for that matter) would fall in or out of that category. I still occasionally see this debated, of whether you add modifiers to the main target of the spell or not.
I'm wondering what is the general consensus here is. Thanks!
You don't need to rely on JC's tweets to realize that you may get to add bonuses to the damage of the attack portion of Lightning Arrow. The reason for this is that you are still making a Ranged Weapon Attack and so follow the rules for resolving weapon damage here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#DamageRolls
You get to add your ability modifier and things like Sharpshooter to the damage because they are bonuses to the Attack's damage, not the Weapon's damage. This may seem like an arbitrary distinction but it is why you can't use Divine Smite with Unarmed Strikes, as explained in three SAC here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA253
Lightning Arrow specifies that it replaces the weapons damage, not the attacks damage. So if you had an 18 Strength, a handaxe, and a +4 proficiency bonus you could cast Lightning Arrow and then throw your handaxe. You would make the attack as normal using your +8 to hit (+4 from pb and +4 from str). Then when you roll damage you would roll 4d8 and add +4 from strength.
I agree, though it's nice to have JC's tweet as confirmation. I've seen a few people here claim otherwise, but I guess they are just wrong. He also mentions, "that aren't specific to the weapon you're using." What would be an example of that?
Also if I miss the main target, and they instead take the 2d8, would I still apply the damage modifiers or only if the attack hits?
To be fair the distinction between a weapon's damage and an attack's damage is an odd one to make. If it weren't for the SAC I would think it fair to consider them synonyms. It is also not perfectly clear which one is being referred to in some cases, like a basic magic weapon for example: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/magic-items-u-z#Weapon12Or3
I would consider the bonus to damage part of the Weapon's damage, but I don't really have good justification for this. This lines up with JC's tweet but that is it.
As for what happens if your weapon attack misses? That is a sticker point as attacks normally do no damage on a miss, so Lightning Arrow doing half damage on a miss is purely an effect of the spell. I would say it is just half 4d8 with no modifiers on a miss for this reason but I could see it being argued either way.
The AoE effect after the attack however doesn't get any modifiers as it calls for a saving throw, rather than an attack roll, and thus is not a weapon attack.
Since Lightning Arrow replaces the normal weapon damage with its damage, he's saying 'roll 4d8+DEX but don't add +1 damage from your +1 arrow because the lightning arrow overrides that.' The weapon attack works as normal, so using a +1 bow or arrow would still get a +1 to attack, but if the weapon provides any modifications to damage calculations, don't use them.
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Yeah, I assumed the AOE part didn't get any bonus modifiers.
Basically, if I use a long bow, instead of it's normal (1d8 + DEX) damage, it's a 4d8 + DEX on the main target only, and only if the attack hits, otherwise it's just a flat 2d8.
Is there something that does specifically add a +1 to specifically a bow? Sorry, admittedly, I am still somewhat new to DND (For first time, I played through a campaign with a group of friends that started a year ago, and we just started a new one).
Thanks for the responses!
Yeah, a weapon, +1 that's a shortbow, for example.
Oh yeah, a magic weapon, I completely forgot those were even a thing, our group has yet to encounter any thus far. That would make sense with respect to Lightning Arrow.
There is no general consensus on Lightning Arrow - the spell is not written to obey the game rules and has never been errataed, so every DM rules independently on it. Here are the issues: