I'm also inclined to say that Haravikk is wrong here. If variant human said "this feature mimics the benefits of a feat of your choice," then he would be right, but instead it grants you a feat, which IS a separate thing. If that feat were taken away from you by any hypothetical means of taking away feats (like becoming a reborn), then the benefits of it would also go away. If those benefits are skill proficiencies, then they would go away. Without any other racial features, there is no free feat, and without a free feat, there are no proficiencies.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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If your campaign uses the optional feat rules from the Player’s Handbook, your Dungeon Master might allow these variant traits, all of which replace the human’s Ability Score Increase trait.
Ability Score Increase
Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Skills
You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Feat
You gain one feat of your choice.
the feat gained fro V. Human is separate from skill proficiencies gained by the race. Only the one skill proficiency you gain from the Skills line are skill proficiencies from your race. And that can carry over. The feat, no matter if it gave proficiency or not, does not carry over.
I'm also inclined to say that Haravikk is wrong here. If variant human said "this feature mimics the benefits of a feat of your choice," then he would be right, but instead it grants you a feat, which IS a separate thing.
the feat gained fro V. Human is separate from skill proficiencies gained by the race. Only the one skill proficiency you gain from the Skills line are skill proficiencies from your race. And that can carry over. The feat, no matter if it gave proficiency or not, does not carry over.
Citations please, because the Reborn rule literally says nothing whatsoever to support these arguments.
Supposedly we're arguing Rules As Written here, yet nobody seems interested in the very simple fact that the core issue is that the Reborn rule doesn't care how you get a skill proficiency from the race, it doesn't define a single mechanism that is the one and only acceptable method of obtaining a skill proficiency, and getting a feat as a variant human is in absolutely no way defined as being something special or exceptional for this purpose.
Either we're arguing RAW or we're not, because the RAW is actually incredibly simple; with regards to its former race a Reborn gets to keep "any skill proficiencies you gained from it", it sets precisely zero conditions about the exact mechanism through which the race grants those skill proficiencies, yet we have people insisting that an invented extra condition that does not exist is somehow relevant to the discussion.
You might want feats to be a special case, but the simple fact of the matter is that for a variant human they are just a different mechanism for achieving the same thing. Once again I will point out for what feels like the hundredth time (and keeps being conspicuously ignored); gaining a free feat is no different to any other racial trait granting a choice of bonuses, the only difference is that a free feat grants a much wider array of options, but as with races that can choose proficiencies or a different bonus, only some of those options are relevant.
The only question that matters here is "did I get a skill proficiency from my race" and the answer for a Skill Expert variant human is "yes", because without that race they wouldn't have it, and there is no other condition that applies unless you invent one, in which case the argument isn't RAW.
And once again, the answer I am proposing is not that the player unconditionally gets the proficiency in all cases, the answer I support as correct is "ask your DM" because (also once again for the millionth time) sometimes that is the correct answer, especially when literally every component involved is DM optional, and the player cannot become Reborn from another race without the DM's consent.
TL;DR The argument that a feat is somehow different has precisely zero supporting rules; while you may lose the other benefits of the feat (the ability score increase and expertise for Skill Expert), there is a clear, specific and explicit exception given for skill proficiencies, with precisely zero further conditions set upon it (other than coming from the race, which a variant human's feat does).
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I'm also inclined to say that Haravikk is wrong here. If variant human said "this feature mimics the benefits of a feat of your choice," then he would be right, but instead it grants you a feat, which IS a separate thing.
the feat gained fro V. Human is separate from skill proficiencies gained by the race. Only the one skill proficiency you gain from the Skills line are skill proficiencies from your race. And that can carry over. The feat, no matter if it gave proficiency or not, does not carry over.
Citations please, because the Reborn rule literally says nothing whatsoever to support these arguments.
Supposedly we're arguing Rules As Written here, yet nobody seems interested in the very simple fact that the core issue is that the Reborn rule doesn't care how you get a skill proficiency from the race, it doesn't define a single mechanism that is the one and only acceptable method of obtaining a skill proficiency, and getting a feat as a variant human is in absolutely no way defined as being something special or exceptional for this purpose.
Either we're arguing RAW or we're not, because the RAW is actually incredibly simple; with regards to its former race a Reborn gets to keep "any skill proficiencies you gained from it", it sets precisely zero conditions about the exact mechanism through which the race grants those skill proficiencies, yet we have people insisting that an invented extra condition that does not exist is somehow relevant to the discussion.
You might want feats to be a special case, but the simple fact of the matter is that for a variant human they are just a different mechanism for achieving the same thing. Once again I will point out for what feels like the hundredth time (and keeps being conspicuously ignored); gaining a free feat is no different to any other racial trait granting a choice of bonuses, the only difference is that a free feat grants a much wider array of options, but as with races that can choose proficiencies or a different bonus, only some of those options are relevant.
The only relevant question here is "did I get a skill proficiency from my race" and the answer for a Skill Expert variant human is "yes", because without that race they wouldn't have it, and there is no other condition that applies unless you invent one, in which case the argument isn't RAW.
And once again, the answer I am proposing is not that the player unconditionally gets the proficiency in all cases, the answer I support is "ask your DM" because (also once again for the millionth time) sometimes that is the correct answer, especially when literally every component involved is DM optional, and the player cannot become Reborn from another race without their explicit consent.
TL;DR The argument that a feat is somehow different has precisely zero supporting rules; while you may lose the other benefits of the feat (the ability score increase and expertise for Skill Expert), there is a clear, specific and explicit exception given for skill proficiencies, with precisely zero further conditions set upon it (other than coming from the race, which a variant human's feat does).
I completely understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. I just don’t agree with you.
The feat granted by v human is a separate racial feature than the skill granted by the v human racial feature. Reborn do not get to keep feats. If you don’t have the feat, you don’t have the skills it grants. But I do wholeheartedly agree “ask your DM”
Citations please, because the Reborn rule literally says nothing whatsoever to support these arguments.
I thought I did. The v human race description distinctly grants three racial traits:
Ability Score Increase
Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Skills
You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Feat
You gain one feat of your choice.
Once again I will point out for what feels like the hundredth time (and keeps being conspicuously ignored); gaining a free feat is no different to any other racial trait granting a choice of bonuses,
And I am not ignoring your point, I am pointing out that the feat is a distinct racial trait. The skill is a distinct racial trait. They are on completely separate lines under completely different headings, in bold to show the difference. The reborn allows you to "If you replace a race with this lineage, you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it..." There is only one place in the race description that grants a skill proficiency and that is under the Skills racial trait.
I completely understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. I just don’t agree with you. the feat granted by v human is a separate racial feature than the skill granted by the v human racial feature. Reborn do not get to keep feats. If you don’t have the feat, you don’t have the skills it grants. But I do wholeheartedly agree “ask your DM”
Losing the feat doesn't matter because specific beats general and skill proficiencies are explicitly retained; the same is true of their standard skill proficiency which is itself part of a racial trait, but the Reborn rule doesn't reference racial traits, it only references skill proficiencies. It places no condition upon how you obtain them other than that they are gained from the race. Technically speaking when you change you lose the "Skills" racial trait, yet retain the skill proficiencies, in the same way you lose the feat but keep any skill proficiencies it granted.
The only difference with a feat is that there may be additional effects that will be lost because there is no specific exception to retain those as well; so Prodigy will lose its tool proficiency, skill expert will lose its ability score increase and expertise etc. Effectively you lose the feat, but keep the skill proficiencies, because the rule only cares about the skill proficiencies, it makes no mention of how the race granted them.
All I'm doing is pointing at the RAW on this one, and it's clear that you can retain these skill proficiencies because it provides no reason not to (and clear opportunity to do so); whether that's Rules As Intended or not we have no idea. That's why "ask your DM" is the key, as keeping the proficiency may have balance issues in the campaign; probably not, but you never know, as someone might want to run a campaign in which a party wipe results in them all coming back as Reborn or something (*scribbles note for upcoming campaign* 😈).
And I am not ignoring your point, I am pointing out that the feat is a distinct racial trait. The skill is a distinct racial trait.
And? The Reborn rule doesn't refer to racial traits, it places no such condition on retaining them; this is making the feat a special case without any wording to support that position.
There is only one place in the race description that grants a skill proficiency and that is under the Skills racial trait.
No, there are two, because the granted feat can also provide skill proficiencies. Again, the Reborn rule makes no reference to how these are obtained, only that they're gained with the race.
If you change the race from variant human to some other ordinary race, you (may) lose one or more skill proficiencies; these are all therefore skill proficiencies granted by the race, because the feat selection is not somehow magically not part of the race.
The only other core rules example I'm aware of would be half-elves, who can choose either Skill Versatility (which grants two skill proficiencies) or they can choose a feature from their elf ancestry (high elf's cantrip or weapon training etc.). While it's a different mechanism this is functionally no different to the free feat; they have a choice of whether to gain additional skill proficiencies or not, which may bite them in the ass if they later become Reborn and learn that they could have gotten more out of choosing Skill Versatility over another option. And half-elf variants are, like variant human, also DM optional.
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I think this is yet another case of how WotC writes their rules that leads to confusion, and RAI isn’t RAW. I can see your point and how it is RAW. I don’t believe it is RAI but I will concede your point. Hopefully 2024D&D will be clearer in its writing.
It places no condition upon how you obtain them other than that they are gained from the race.
Exactly. And the proficiencies gained from the feat are not gained from the race, they're gained from the feat. This is what you continue to either misunderstand or misrepresent.
If there were a reborn class what let you keep any proficiencies from your old class, and your old class was an artificer, and you had an infusion that gave you new proficiencies, I feel like anybody in their right mind would argue that you don't keep the proficiencies from the infusion. This is just the same deal here.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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It places no condition upon how you obtain them other than that they are gained from the race.
Exactly. And the proficiencies gained from the feat are not gained from the race, they're gained from the feat. This is what you continue to either misunderstand or misrepresent.
The skills come from the feat that comes from your race. It’s all gained from your race. I agree this is probably not RAI but with out specific wording that eliminates proficiency gain via feat then all proficiencies carry over. If we are specifically looking Rules As Written then It has to be expressly stated in black and white. Intent isn’t RAW it’s RAI.
It is poorly worded and I believe the intent is clear but the wording is not.
If there were a reborn class what let you keep any proficiencies from your old class, and your old class was an artificer, and you had an infusion that gave you new proficiencies, I feel like anybody in their right mind would argue that you don't keep the proficiencies from the infusion. This is just the same deal here.
If the Reborn class said you can keep any proficiencies gained as part of your old class then yes you could. It all depends on the wording.
It places no condition upon how you obtain them other than that they are gained from the race.
Exactly. And the proficiencies gained from the feat are not gained from the race, they're gained from the feat. This is what you continue to either misunderstand or misrepresent.
The skills come from the feat that comes from your race.
Correct, which means the skills don't come from the race.
It’s all gained from your race.
No, only the feat is gained from the race. The proficiencies are gained from the feat. You're making things significantly more complicated than they are. Again, this logic would dictate that a hasted fighter using a perfectly ordinary longsword would bypass resistance to non-magical damage with their extra attack.
I agree this is probably not RAI but with out specific wording that eliminates proficiency gain via feat then all proficiencies carry over. If we are specifically looking Rules As Written then It has to be expressly stated in black and white. Intent isn’t RAW it’s RAI.
The specific wording that eliminates proficiency gain via feat is that what you get to keep is "any skill proficiencies you gained from [that race]." A feat is not a race.
It is poorly worded and I believe the intent is clear but the wording is not.
It's worded just fine. A feat isn't a race. It really is that simple.
No, only the feat is gained from the race. The proficiencies are gained from the feat. You're making things significantly more complicated than they are. Again, this logic would dictate that a hasted fighter using a perfectly ordinary longsword would bypass resistance to non-magical damage with their extra attack.
You're incorrect on multiple levels:
Whether or not a race granting a feat granting a skill proficiency is transitive with respect to granting so it becomes a race granting a skill proficiency has no intrinsic relationship with a spell granting an attack granting damage, correlative or otherwise.
The attack you make from haste does not deal magical damage for reasons that have nothing to do with the transitive property whatsoever: in the general case, all weapon attacks you make due to a spell fail to deal magical damage, e.g. from Booming Blade.
What constitutes "magical" is not settled RAW; Faithful Hound could deal magical or non-magical damage and your DM would not be violating RAW either way. Under the presumption that it's reasonable to draw inferences from spellcasting to reason about racials as per the current topic, which again I disagreed with in my first claim, that would imply that our conclusion is that the answer to OP's question is not settled RAW.
I think, for the record, you are 100% right that Reborn will not let you keep skill proficiencies gained from a feat gained from a race, and furthermore that you came to your conclusion via 100% correct reasoning: I think WOTC thinks like you do. What I disagree with you on is the idea that the RAW we have is remotely clear or well-written or answers the question directly, and I don't think it's productive to be dismissive of others when they read the same rules you and I do but come to different conclusions. One of the primary goals of this forum is highlighting when the RAW is clear as mud and exploring the consequences of various ways to interpret such a situation. You are 100% correct that ruling that Reborn TCLs/VHumans keep feat benefits provided the feat benefits are skill proficiencies goes against everything we understand about both how WOTC writes their rules and our best guesses as to intended racial balance. The best thing we can do is present that information.
It's worded just fine. A feat isn't a race. It really is that simple.
Considering some agree with you and some do not. And I started out fully agreeing with you, as you can see in my previous posts, but have since changed my mind that keeping the skills can fit RAW but I don’t think it is RAI, I think your statement is misguided.
Edit:
And it is poorly worded, as much of it was unnecessary. I don't believe any race gives more than two skill proficiencies. And assuming WotC did not intend for skills gained from feats to be an option, carrying over a skill proficiency is unneeded as the Reborn grants two skill proficiencies. So you can replace the one or two skills your previous race gave you with these two (possible actually gaining more, in the case of, say, and Elf that only gets 1, Perception)
As is now it reads:
Ancestral Legacy
If you replace a race with this lineage, you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it and any climbing, flying, or swimming speed you gained from it.
If you don’t keep any of those elements or you choose this lineage at character creation, you gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.
But it could very well have read:
You lose all skill proficiencies of your previous race and replace them with proficiency in two skills of your choice.
Alternatively, if your previous race granted a climbing, flying, or swimming speed you can keep that movement speed and gain proficiency in one skill of your choice, instead.
Something along these lines. Then there is no question about skills or not, you lose them all.
If it's so clear then it should be simple to point to the rule that supports your position, as I feel like I've more than supported mine. The Reborn rule places no conditions on how a race granted a skill proficiency, only that it did; if a race lets you pick a feat, then anything that feat gives you is a part of the race, because races that don't give you a feat don't give you it.
Getting a free feat is no different to a racial trait having options, except that it grants you a lot of options. As I've pointed out, half-elf variants can run into this exact same issue by swapping Skill Versatility for an ancestral trait; different mechanism, exact same problem, so the variant human's feat is not a special case, and the rules certainly don't make it one.
Now whether this is RAI or not is debatable, we have no guidance on that. It seems silly that one race's skill proficiencies are more valuable than another's simply because they're granted via a different mechanism, but it also seems silly to me that this is a feature in the first place as it was always bound to result in an imbalance between the various races you can upgrade from. It should have been something a lot more clear as ThriKeenWarrior suggests (two proficiencies, can swap one for one of a set of features, should all come from previous race if you had one) because the way it's currently written is not a very good or balanced rule and introduces exactly these problems for not just variant human but variant half-elves as well.
I feel like I shouldn't have to keep repeating my position, but it is not that you get to keep these proficiencies unconditionally, my position is that "ask your DM" is the answer to this case, because you don't become Reborn whenever you feel like, your DM is supposed to be involved so it's for them to decide the specifics if or when it happens, and whether there are any balance issues (i.e- if only one player is changing it may not matter, second proficiency from Skill Expert shouldn't be unbalanced, but three from Skilled might etc.).
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The attack you make from haste does not deal magical damage for reasons that have nothing to do with the transitive property whatsoever: in the general case, all weapon attacks you make due to a spell fail to deal magical damage, e.g. from Booming Blade.
Unless you can provide some rule that specifically says that, then the reason weapon attacks you make due to a spell aren't magical attacks is because "transitivity" is not a thing.
Well I'm just going to stick with rulling that a feat is not a skill proficiency, so ancestral legacy does not let you keep it; and that feats are not racial traits, so ancestral legacy does not let you keep proficiencies granted by feats you no longer have.
And I'm not even going to entertain the counter argument of "show in the rules were it says feats aren't racial traits" because that is not how rules or logic works. The burden of proof is on the positive claim.
And I'm not even going to entertain the counter argument of "show in the rules were it says feats aren't racial traits" because that is not how rules or logic works. The burden of proof is on the positive claim.
It's not about whether feats are racial traits, as neither is relevant to the Reborn rule. If the feat grants a skill proficiency, and the feat came from the race, then that's a skill proficiency you have due to your race, because if you switched to a different race (that doesn't grant any proficiencies) you wouldn't have it anymore. That said, getting the feat is a racial trait, so whatever that feat grants you is part of the trait.
As I've already pointed out this problem is not unique to variant human feats; half elves can choose whether to have skill versatility (two skill proficiencies) or another bonus, and will run into the exact same issue when becoming Reborn. It's the exact same issue, just via a different mechanism, because getting a free feat is simply how variant human implements its options, but that doesn't make them magically nothing to do with the race.
A race is everything that being that race gives you; Reborn doesn't care about the mechanism.
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It is amusing that only the first two replies actually addressed the question the OP asked and gave contradicting answers. To the OP: As a Reborn you can only keep Skill Proficiencies and Movement Speeds granted by your previous race. So the RAW answer regarding if you can keep your Expertise granted by Skill Expert is no. Expertise is neither a Skill Proficiency nor a Movement Speed. Similarly you cannot keep the +1 to an ability score granted by Skill Expert.
As for whether or not you keep the skill proficiency granted by Skill Expert that is what most of this thread debates. This debate revolves around what qualifies as a "skill proficiencies you gained from [your previous race]". Some argue that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the feat, because it is. Others argue that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the race, because the feat is gained by the race. All of this is true and how to determine the source of something isn't rigorously defined in the rules.
Personally I would rule that you lose Skill Expert and all of its related benefits, including the Skill Proficiency. This approach ensures all characters with a racially granted feat are treated the same regardless of what feat they happened to pick.
Also there is some RAI support for the proximate cause argument that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the feat. There is similar ambiguity regarding what counts as an attack's damage. This issue has been addressed by JC with regards to how to roll Witch Bolt's damage on subsequent rounds if the initial attack was a crit https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/934969476751044608?lang=en.
While the initial attack roll is a required part of dealing damage with Witch Bolt, on subsequent rounds JC reasons it is the action granted by the spell that is the source of the damage thus cannot crit.
While the initial attack roll is a required part of dealing damage with Witch Bolt, on subsequent rounds JC reasons it is the action granted by the spell that is the source of the damage thus cannot crit.
Not sure if that case is really comparable; critical hits only multiply the damage roll of the attack itself, and attacks have a clearly defined sequence that is fully resolved before moving on. Any damage that occurs outside of that sequence cannot be part of those rules so while it might be a consequence of the initial successful attack it's not part of the attack itself. Where question marks exist is how to handle things like immediate secondary damage, for example a weapon attack that can also deal poison damage on a failed saving throw, because that's resolved as part of the attack sequence so can be argued to be part of the attack (personally I rule that it counts, but it's definitely debatable).
The feat granted by the variant human however is fully part of the racial trait, as it grants all of its benefits when you pick it as part of choosing the race. It's just a different mechanism of choosing what benefits to get from the race. Again, half elves are the closest point of comparison, as they have the choice of either Skill Versatility (two skill proficiencies) or something else, in the first case they receive more benefit from becoming Reborn than a half-elf who picks one of the other options. This is no different to the issue with the variant human.
There's no "balanced" way to interpret it, the only way to truly balance it is to rewrite the rule as others have proposed (all Reborn get two skill proficiencies, and can swap one for a racial feature like swim speed etc.), this way every Reborn is equal regardless of the race they were originally. But since that's not how it was written, it falls to a DM's call.
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That's not the way the rules work. Any bonuses granted by a feat are, by definition, granted by the feat. They are not granted by the race gave you the feat unless the racial abilities explicitly calls them out as changing to be racial abilities, or if there was a general rule that says granted abilities inherit the properties of whatever granted them.
It is a huge leap of logic to think otherwise. The assumptions you are making are not reasonable. The Reborn racial abilities does not need to explicitly forbid skills granted from a feat from counting, you need a RAW source that says those skills do count as racial abilities.
The same way that damaged caused by an extra attack from haste is not considered damage from a spell, the benefits of a feat granted by a race aren't considered racial abilities.
Skills granted by a race are a clearly defined thing. There is a category in every racial listing that explicitly says what those skills are.
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I'm also inclined to say that Haravikk is wrong here. If variant human said "this feature mimics the benefits of a feat of your choice," then he would be right, but instead it grants you a feat, which IS a separate thing. If that feat were taken away from you by any hypothetical means of taking away feats (like becoming a reborn), then the benefits of it would also go away. If those benefits are skill proficiencies, then they would go away. Without any other racial features, there is no free feat, and without a free feat, there are no proficiencies.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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the feat gained fro V. Human is separate from skill proficiencies gained by the race. Only the one skill proficiency you gain from the Skills line are skill proficiencies from your race. And that can carry over. The feat, no matter if it gave proficiency or not, does not carry over.
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Citations please, because the Reborn rule literally says nothing whatsoever to support these arguments.
Supposedly we're arguing Rules As Written here, yet nobody seems interested in the very simple fact that the core issue is that the Reborn rule doesn't care how you get a skill proficiency from the race, it doesn't define a single mechanism that is the one and only acceptable method of obtaining a skill proficiency, and getting a feat as a variant human is in absolutely no way defined as being something special or exceptional for this purpose.
Either we're arguing RAW or we're not, because the RAW is actually incredibly simple; with regards to its former race a Reborn gets to keep "any skill proficiencies you gained from it", it sets precisely zero conditions about the exact mechanism through which the race grants those skill proficiencies, yet we have people insisting that an invented extra condition that does not exist is somehow relevant to the discussion.
You might want feats to be a special case, but the simple fact of the matter is that for a variant human they are just a different mechanism for achieving the same thing. Once again I will point out for what feels like the hundredth time (and keeps being conspicuously ignored); gaining a free feat is no different to any other racial trait granting a choice of bonuses, the only difference is that a free feat grants a much wider array of options, but as with races that can choose proficiencies or a different bonus, only some of those options are relevant.
The only question that matters here is "did I get a skill proficiency from my race" and the answer for a Skill Expert variant human is "yes", because without that race they wouldn't have it, and there is no other condition that applies unless you invent one, in which case the argument isn't RAW.
And once again, the answer I am proposing is not that the player unconditionally gets the proficiency in all cases, the answer I support as correct is "ask your DM" because (also once again for the millionth time) sometimes that is the correct answer, especially when literally every component involved is DM optional, and the player cannot become Reborn from another race without the DM's consent.
TL;DR
The argument that a feat is somehow different has precisely zero supporting rules; while you may lose the other benefits of the feat (the ability score increase and expertise for Skill Expert), there is a clear, specific and explicit exception given for skill proficiencies, with precisely zero further conditions set upon it (other than coming from the race, which a variant human's feat does).
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I completely understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. I just don’t agree with you.
The feat granted by v human is a separate racial feature than the skill granted by the v human racial feature. Reborn do not get to keep feats. If you don’t have the feat, you don’t have the skills it grants. But I do wholeheartedly agree “ask your DM”
I thought I did. The v human race description distinctly grants three racial traits:
Ability Score Increase
Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Skills
You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Feat
You gain one feat of your choice.
And I am not ignoring your point, I am pointing out that the feat is a distinct racial trait. The skill is a distinct racial trait. They are on completely separate lines under completely different headings, in bold to show the difference. The reborn allows you to "If you replace a race with this lineage, you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it..." There is only one place in the race description that grants a skill proficiency and that is under the Skills racial trait.
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Losing the feat doesn't matter because specific beats general and skill proficiencies are explicitly retained; the same is true of their standard skill proficiency which is itself part of a racial trait, but the Reborn rule doesn't reference racial traits, it only references skill proficiencies. It places no condition upon how you obtain them other than that they are gained from the race. Technically speaking when you change you lose the "Skills" racial trait, yet retain the skill proficiencies, in the same way you lose the feat but keep any skill proficiencies it granted.
The only difference with a feat is that there may be additional effects that will be lost because there is no specific exception to retain those as well; so Prodigy will lose its tool proficiency, skill expert will lose its ability score increase and expertise etc. Effectively you lose the feat, but keep the skill proficiencies, because the rule only cares about the skill proficiencies, it makes no mention of how the race granted them.
All I'm doing is pointing at the RAW on this one, and it's clear that you can retain these skill proficiencies because it provides no reason not to (and clear opportunity to do so); whether that's Rules As Intended or not we have no idea. That's why "ask your DM" is the key, as keeping the proficiency may have balance issues in the campaign; probably not, but you never know, as someone might want to run a campaign in which a party wipe results in them all coming back as Reborn or something (*scribbles note for upcoming campaign* 😈).
And? The Reborn rule doesn't refer to racial traits, it places no such condition on retaining them; this is making the feat a special case without any wording to support that position.
No, there are two, because the granted feat can also provide skill proficiencies. Again, the Reborn rule makes no reference to how these are obtained, only that they're gained with the race.
If you change the race from variant human to some other ordinary race, you (may) lose one or more skill proficiencies; these are all therefore skill proficiencies granted by the race, because the feat selection is not somehow magically not part of the race.
The only other core rules example I'm aware of would be half-elves, who can choose either Skill Versatility (which grants two skill proficiencies) or they can choose a feature from their elf ancestry (high elf's cantrip or weapon training etc.). While it's a different mechanism this is functionally no different to the free feat; they have a choice of whether to gain additional skill proficiencies or not, which may bite them in the ass if they later become Reborn and learn that they could have gotten more out of choosing Skill Versatility over another option. And half-elf variants are, like variant human, also DM optional.
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I think this is yet another case of how WotC writes their rules that leads to confusion, and RAI isn’t RAW. I can see your point and how it is RAW. I don’t believe it is RAI but I will concede your point. Hopefully 2024D&D will be clearer in its writing.
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Exactly. And the proficiencies gained from the feat are not gained from the race, they're gained from the feat. This is what you continue to either misunderstand or misrepresent.
If there were a reborn class what let you keep any proficiencies from your old class, and your old class was an artificer, and you had an infusion that gave you new proficiencies, I feel like anybody in their right mind would argue that you don't keep the proficiencies from the infusion. This is just the same deal here.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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The skills come from the feat that comes from your race. It’s all gained from your race. I agree this is probably not RAI but with out specific wording that eliminates proficiency gain via feat then all proficiencies carry over. If we are specifically looking Rules As Written then It has to be expressly stated in black and white. Intent isn’t RAW it’s RAI.
It is poorly worded and I believe the intent is clear but the wording is not.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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If the Reborn class said you can keep any proficiencies gained as part of your old class then yes you could. It all depends on the wording.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Correct, which means the skills don't come from the race.
No, only the feat is gained from the race. The proficiencies are gained from the feat. You're making things significantly more complicated than they are. Again, this logic would dictate that a hasted fighter using a perfectly ordinary longsword would bypass resistance to non-magical damage with their extra attack.
The specific wording that eliminates proficiency gain via feat is that what you get to keep is "any skill proficiencies you gained from [that race]." A feat is not a race.
It's worded just fine. A feat isn't a race. It really is that simple.
You're incorrect on multiple levels:
I think, for the record, you are 100% right that Reborn will not let you keep skill proficiencies gained from a feat gained from a race, and furthermore that you came to your conclusion via 100% correct reasoning: I think WOTC thinks like you do. What I disagree with you on is the idea that the RAW we have is remotely clear or well-written or answers the question directly, and I don't think it's productive to be dismissive of others when they read the same rules you and I do but come to different conclusions. One of the primary goals of this forum is highlighting when the RAW is clear as mud and exploring the consequences of various ways to interpret such a situation. You are 100% correct that ruling that Reborn TCLs/VHumans keep feat benefits provided the feat benefits are skill proficiencies goes against everything we understand about both how WOTC writes their rules and our best guesses as to intended racial balance. The best thing we can do is present that information.
Considering some agree with you and some do not. And I started out fully agreeing with you, as you can see in my previous posts, but have since changed my mind that keeping the skills can fit RAW but I don’t think it is RAI, I think your statement is misguided.
Edit:
And it is poorly worded, as much of it was unnecessary. I don't believe any race gives more than two skill proficiencies. And assuming WotC did not intend for skills gained from feats to be an option, carrying over a skill proficiency is unneeded as the Reborn grants two skill proficiencies. So you can replace the one or two skills your previous race gave you with these two (possible actually gaining more, in the case of, say, and Elf that only gets 1, Perception)
As is now it reads:
But it could very well have read:
Something along these lines. Then there is no question about skills or not, you lose them all.
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If it's so clear then it should be simple to point to the rule that supports your position, as I feel like I've more than supported mine. The Reborn rule places no conditions on how a race granted a skill proficiency, only that it did; if a race lets you pick a feat, then anything that feat gives you is a part of the race, because races that don't give you a feat don't give you it.
Getting a free feat is no different to a racial trait having options, except that it grants you a lot of options. As I've pointed out, half-elf variants can run into this exact same issue by swapping Skill Versatility for an ancestral trait; different mechanism, exact same problem, so the variant human's feat is not a special case, and the rules certainly don't make it one.
Now whether this is RAI or not is debatable, we have no guidance on that. It seems silly that one race's skill proficiencies are more valuable than another's simply because they're granted via a different mechanism, but it also seems silly to me that this is a feature in the first place as it was always bound to result in an imbalance between the various races you can upgrade from. It should have been something a lot more clear as ThriKeenWarrior suggests (two proficiencies, can swap one for one of a set of features, should all come from previous race if you had one) because the way it's currently written is not a very good or balanced rule and introduces exactly these problems for not just variant human but variant half-elves as well.
I feel like I shouldn't have to keep repeating my position, but it is not that you get to keep these proficiencies unconditionally, my position is that "ask your DM" is the answer to this case, because you don't become Reborn whenever you feel like, your DM is supposed to be involved so it's for them to decide the specifics if or when it happens, and whether there are any balance issues (i.e- if only one player is changing it may not matter, second proficiency from Skill Expert shouldn't be unbalanced, but three from Skilled might etc.).
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Unless you can provide some rule that specifically says that, then the reason weapon attacks you make due to a spell aren't magical attacks is because "transitivity" is not a thing.
Well I'm just going to stick with rulling that a feat is not a skill proficiency, so ancestral legacy does not let you keep it; and that feats are not racial traits, so ancestral legacy does not let you keep proficiencies granted by feats you no longer have.
And I'm not even going to entertain the counter argument of "show in the rules were it says feats aren't racial traits" because that is not how rules or logic works. The burden of proof is on the positive claim.
It's not about whether feats are racial traits, as neither is relevant to the Reborn rule. If the feat grants a skill proficiency, and the feat came from the race, then that's a skill proficiency you have due to your race, because if you switched to a different race (that doesn't grant any proficiencies) you wouldn't have it anymore. That said, getting the feat is a racial trait, so whatever that feat grants you is part of the trait.
As I've already pointed out this problem is not unique to variant human feats; half elves can choose whether to have skill versatility (two skill proficiencies) or another bonus, and will run into the exact same issue when becoming Reborn. It's the exact same issue, just via a different mechanism, because getting a free feat is simply how variant human implements its options, but that doesn't make them magically nothing to do with the race.
A race is everything that being that race gives you; Reborn doesn't care about the mechanism.
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It is amusing that only the first two replies actually addressed the question the OP asked and gave contradicting answers. To the OP: As a Reborn you can only keep Skill Proficiencies and Movement Speeds granted by your previous race. So the RAW answer regarding if you can keep your Expertise granted by Skill Expert is no. Expertise is neither a Skill Proficiency nor a Movement Speed. Similarly you cannot keep the +1 to an ability score granted by Skill Expert.
As for whether or not you keep the skill proficiency granted by Skill Expert that is what most of this thread debates. This debate revolves around what qualifies as a "skill proficiencies you gained from [your previous race]". Some argue that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the feat, because it is. Others argue that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the race, because the feat is gained by the race. All of this is true and how to determine the source of something isn't rigorously defined in the rules.
Personally I would rule that you lose Skill Expert and all of its related benefits, including the Skill Proficiency. This approach ensures all characters with a racially granted feat are treated the same regardless of what feat they happened to pick.
Also there is some RAI support for the proximate cause argument that the Skill Proficiency granted by Skill Expert is gained by the feat. There is similar ambiguity regarding what counts as an attack's damage. This issue has been addressed by JC with regards to how to roll Witch Bolt's damage on subsequent rounds if the initial attack was a crit https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/934969476751044608?lang=en.
While the initial attack roll is a required part of dealing damage with Witch Bolt, on subsequent rounds JC reasons it is the action granted by the spell that is the source of the damage thus cannot crit.
Not sure if that case is really comparable; critical hits only multiply the damage roll of the attack itself, and attacks have a clearly defined sequence that is fully resolved before moving on. Any damage that occurs outside of that sequence cannot be part of those rules so while it might be a consequence of the initial successful attack it's not part of the attack itself. Where question marks exist is how to handle things like immediate secondary damage, for example a weapon attack that can also deal poison damage on a failed saving throw, because that's resolved as part of the attack sequence so can be argued to be part of the attack (personally I rule that it counts, but it's definitely debatable).
The feat granted by the variant human however is fully part of the racial trait, as it grants all of its benefits when you pick it as part of choosing the race. It's just a different mechanism of choosing what benefits to get from the race. Again, half elves are the closest point of comparison, as they have the choice of either Skill Versatility (two skill proficiencies) or something else, in the first case they receive more benefit from becoming Reborn than a half-elf who picks one of the other options. This is no different to the issue with the variant human.
There's no "balanced" way to interpret it, the only way to truly balance it is to rewrite the rule as others have proposed (all Reborn get two skill proficiencies, and can swap one for a racial feature like swim speed etc.), this way every Reborn is equal regardless of the race they were originally. But since that's not how it was written, it falls to a DM's call.
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That's not the way the rules work. Any bonuses granted by a feat are, by definition, granted by the feat. They are not granted by the race gave you the feat unless the racial abilities explicitly calls them out as changing to be racial abilities, or if there was a general rule that says granted abilities inherit the properties of whatever granted them.
It is a huge leap of logic to think otherwise. The assumptions you are making are not reasonable. The Reborn racial abilities does not need to explicitly forbid skills granted from a feat from counting, you need a RAW source that says those skills do count as racial abilities.
The same way that damaged caused by an extra attack from haste is not considered damage from a spell, the benefits of a feat granted by a race aren't considered racial abilities.
Skills granted by a race are a clearly defined thing. There is a category in every racial listing that explicitly says what those skills are.