In the latest session of a campaign I'm playing in our sorcerer got cursed and we briefly had some light pvp while trying to uncurse him. Our wizard stated he was going to ready counterspell to block any spells our sorcerer might potentially try. We knew it wasn't necessary to ready since its already a reaction spell, but he just didn't want to start blasting our ally with other spells if he didn't need to and this was all he wanted to do. The sorcerer then claimed that, as he also had counterspell, he could cast Fly on his turn, use his reaction to cast counterspell while the wizard cast counterspell to cancel it out, and complete his fly spell.
We really scratched our heads on this one and are not sure. We were discussing if the sorcerer could actually be casting 2 spells simultaneously since counterspell only has somatic components and could be used in one hand while the other hand was used for fly. Also trying to figure out how the rule of 1 leveled spell per round/turn applied (and which was the precise rule: round or turn) and if a reaction counted as part of his turn if he was using it during his turn. Even had to question that since the wizard readied his counterspell ahead of time he should have been able to use it faster than the sorcerer and get it off before he could react with his counterspell. We never all settled on a clear answer.
Anyone have some insight on how this should work. Can you counterspell someone counterspelling you? Also, could you counterspell someone using counterspell on someone else's spell?
Edit: Thanks for clearing that up. Was really bugging me that we couldn't figure it out.
The bonus action spell rule doesn't mean that you cannot cast more than one leveled spell on your turn. You can cast two, or sometimes even three, on your turn as long as none of them use your bonus action. Here is a chart that might help you see what you can and cannot cast on your turn.
Easy answer is Yes. You can counterspell a counterspell, and if someone else has it, they can counterspell your counterspelling of counterspell.
Also, there is no rule that prevents you from casting multiple leveled spells per turn. You just can't cast a Bonus Action Spell and a Leveled spell. For example, if you had Actions Surge, you could cast two leveled single action spells and a reaction spell. But if you cast ANY bonus action spells (quickened for example) you can't cast any other leveled spells, only cantrips.
Also, could you counterspell someone using counterspell on someone else's spell?
Yes, definitely. All Counterspell requires is that you see someone casting a spell. Who the caster is or what is targeted matters not. You see it, use your reaction and spell slot (and roll if necessary), nothing more to it. And as DJC mentioned, if you have multiple spellcasters around then it can create a nice long counterchain to go through to see if the original spell actually goes off or not.
As others have said you can not (and don't need to anyway) hold your action so you can use your reaction to that only requires a reaction anyway. The best thing the wizard can do in such circumstances is take the dodge action making them harder to hit if the sorcerer tries to hit him with a fire bolt or something.
Exactly. If they quickened the fly spell, they would not have been able to counter the counterspell on their turn.
EDIT: Now, whether a counterspelled bonus action spell limits you to only casting a cantrip with a casting time of an action for the rest of the turn is apparently a subject of some debate.
Exactly. If they quickened the fly spell, they would not have been able to counter the counterspell on their turn.
EDIT: Now, whether a counterspelled bonus action spell limits you to only casting a cantrip with a casting time of an action for the rest of the turn is apparently a subject of some debate.
But the point is they cannot do both :)
Counterspell doesn't negate/prevent the casting, just negates that spell's effect.
If it did negate the casting completely, that would create a paradox where either the BA spell is countered so you can counter the counter, but then it didn't get countered so you can't cast the counter per BA casting rules, but then that puts you back where you started.
Also, if the cast is completely negated then no resources get used, which... is the complete opposite of the point of counterspell.
TLDR: the debate falls apart as soon as a third brain cell is involved.
Thanks for the responses. Being able to counterspell on the same turn you cast a full action spell and not on a turn where you cast a bonus action spell doesn't really make much sense, but it does seem to be the RAW.
Has there been any response that that sort of interaction wasn't RAI?
Thanks for the responses. Being able to counterspell on the same turn you cast a full action spell and not on a turn where you cast a bonus action spell doesn't really make much sense, but it does seem to be the RAW.
Has there been any response that that sort of interaction wasn't RAI?
As far as I am aware WotC have never that RAI is different ot RAW without publishing an errata. This makes sense as if RAW is different to what they intended they should change the written rule. SAC never changes the rules but clarifies the rules either becasue a lot of people have misunderstood RAW or because RAW is ambiguous.
There are however a number of cases where Jeremy Crawford has said RAI matches RAW where in the opinion of most players it doesn't make sense. I am mot aware of a statement of RAI on this but recently Jermeny Crawford clarified on a video that it was fully intended that if a creature is invisible it attacks with advantage against creatures even if the the creature they are attacking can see invisibility and the creature with see invisbility still attacks invisible creatures with disadvantage.
So, this got me thinking about when does the game consider your spell to have been cast? I promise this is relevant to this thread :)
If I cast a quickened spell, let's say fireball, and someone counterspells it, which spell does the game consider to have been cast first? Obviously, I began casting fireball before the counterspell, but the counterspell finishes before I finish casting fireball or else fireball would go off and counterspell would be too late. We have clearly established that if you cast a spell as a bonus action, you cannot also cast counterspell on the same turn. And likewise, if you cast counterspell, you cannot cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn. And if you try to do both, the bonus action casting rule says that you can only cast the first of those spells and the second spell is invalidated and cannot be cast at all.
So if I cast a quickened fireball at level 8 and someone counterspells me and I counterspell their counterspell, I have violated the bonus action casting rule, but which of those two spells cannot be cast? It's an important question because in one case, I stand to lose an 8th level spell slot and a sorcery point and in the other case, I stand to lose a 3rd level spell slot instead. Logically, would the game consider the order of the cast spells to be fireball, counterspell, counterspell, thereby disallowing the second counterspell? Or would it be (Fireball(Counterspell(Counterspell))) in which case, the counterspell is cast first, disallowing the quickened fireball from being cast?
Does the game consider a spell to have been cast when casting begins? Or when casting ends? It can make all the difference in this situation. I cannot find RAW that defines this, but maybe you can?
So, this got me thinking about when does the game consider your spell to have been cast? I promise this is relevant to this thread :)
If I cast a quickened spell, let's say fireball, and someone counterspells it, which spell does the game consider to have been cast first? Obviously, I began casting fireball before the counterspell, but the counterspell finishes before I finish casting fireball or else fireball would go off and counterspell would be too late. We have clearly established that if you cast a spell as a bonus action, you cannot also cast counterspell on the same turn. And likewise, if you cast counterspell, you cannot cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn. And if you try to do both, the bonus action casting rule says that you can only cast the first of those spells and the second spell is invalidated and cannot be cast at all.
So if I cast a quickened fireball at level 8 and someone counterspells me and I counterspell their counterspell, I have violated the bonus action casting rule, but which of those two spells cannot be cast? It's an important question because in one case, I stand to lose an 8th level spell slot and a sorcery point and in the other case, I stand to lose a 3rd level spell slot instead. Logically, would the game consider the order of the cast spells to be fireball, counterspell, counterspell, thereby disallowing the second counterspell? Or would it be (Fireball(Counterspell(Counterspell))) in which case, the counterspell is cast first, disallowing the quickened fireball from being cast?
Does the game consider a spell to have been cast when casting begins? Or when casting ends? It can make all the difference in this situation. I cannot find RAW that defines this, but maybe you can?
Logic would seem to indicate that If the fireball isn't cast then there is nothing to counterspell in the first place.
So the first step is casting fireball as a bonus action which then limits that caster to only casting cantrips with a casting time of one action for the rest of their turn. If there is no counterspell the fireball completes as normal. If the fireball is counterspelled then the caster can not cast a counterspell because they have already cast a spell as a bonus action (the spell slot is expended).
When talking about a single chain of events - I think the bonus action spell casting (whether successful or not) must prevent the casting of other spells that aren't a cantrip with a casting time of one action even when counterspelled BECAUSE if it did not then if the character attempted to counterspell the counterspell and it is successful then they end up in a situation where they will have intrinsically broken the bonus action spell casting rule by casting a bonus action spell and a counterspell in the same turn. Since this situation is explicitly prevented by the rules then any chain of events that leads to that outcome is also not allowed.
However, more generally, I think what you are trying to ask is - IF the bonus action spell is counterspelled, then is the character still subject to the bonus action spell casting limitations since the counterspell stops the bonus action spell from being cast? Could a sorcerer try to cast a fireball as a bonus action, have that fireball counterspelled and then use their action to cast a fireball since the bonus action spell wasn't cast? Extending that further, if the character doesn't cast a bonus action spell, have they used their bonus action?
The wording of counterspell is specifically "its spell fails and has no effect". Counterspell does not say the spell isn't cast, it doesn't say the spell isn't completed. It does say you try to interrupt the caster but it doesn't say what mechanism is involved. I would tend to interpret "fails" in this context as "the spell is cast with no effect" rather than counterspell preventing the spell itself from being cast but I could see a DM ruling otherwise. However, the wording of counterspell in terms of "the spell fails and has no effect" as opposed to "the spell is interrupted and is not cast" would tend to imply to me that the spell is still cast but does nothing in which cast the rules remain consistent and the bonus action spell caster has both used their bonus action to cast a spell and is limited in terms of spells they can cast for the rest of the turn.
Logic would seem to indicate that If the fireball isn't cast then there is nothing to counterspell in the first place.
This is a super obvious and legitimate point, and maybe I should have spent a little time pointing out that I was not suggesting this. We can both agree that fireball has started to be cast, which kicked off the entire chain of events. And if the game considers a spell to be cast when you start the casting process, then by extension, the bonus action casting rule would also apply to when you begin to cast a spell. An example of this might be when you look at how concentrating on a new spell ends concentration on an old spell even before the new spell is finished casting. Does this mean that the new spell counts as "cast" while casting is in progress?
But if the game considers the spell to be cast when casting finishes, then, by extension, the bonus action casting rule would also apply to when you finish casting a spell. That would make fireball actually the third spell to finish casting. Logically, we might explain this as the fireball being cut off after it started, but before it was cast. Or logically, we might not. The inference of logic in this example is beside my point of trying to pin down RAW. There is some precedent for this situation in the general spellcasting rules that say if your concentration fails before you finish casting a spell, then the spell fails, but you do not expend the spell slot. This wording comes from spells that take longer than an action to cast, which none of the spells in my example do, so maybe it doesn't apply. But then again, there is no general rule that I know of that explains what happens when a spell with a casting time of an action or faster fails before casting is complete, so we really don't know if such a spell has been "cast" or not.
Lastly, I would like to point out that I am not suggesting that counterspell somehow means the fireball was not cast and that the bonus action casting rule does not apply--simply that counterspell might end up being the first spell completely cast, and it might be the spell that ends up on the allowed side of the rule. My suggestion is that the order of events might cause the bonus action spell rule to mean the fireball was never finished casting if the game defines "cast" as the spell having finished casting, since it would finish after counterspell finished.
Ultimately, the entire question comes down to the unique timing of counterspell, which inserts itself in the middle of the casting process starting after the target spell, and finishing before the target spell, thereby stifling it and causing it to fail.
The rules don't define when a spell is "cast," but counterspell requires the casting process to be started to even be cast itself. So fireball is definitely started casting first, the casting isn't stopped by counterspell, and the BA casting rule is retroactive. All these RAW factors make the "which spell 'is cast' first" question moot. You can't even attempt to cast counterspell the same turn you cast a BA spell.
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In the latest session of a campaign I'm playing in our sorcerer got cursed and we briefly had some light pvp while trying to uncurse him. Our wizard stated he was going to ready counterspell to block any spells our sorcerer might potentially try. We knew it wasn't necessary to ready since its already a reaction spell, but he just didn't want to start blasting our ally with other spells if he didn't need to and this was all he wanted to do. The sorcerer then claimed that, as he also had counterspell, he could cast Fly on his turn, use his reaction to cast counterspell while the wizard cast counterspell to cancel it out, and complete his fly spell.
We really scratched our heads on this one and are not sure. We were discussing if the sorcerer could actually be casting 2 spells simultaneously since counterspell only has somatic components and could be used in one hand while the other hand was used for fly. Also trying to figure out how the rule of 1 leveled spell per round/turn applied (and which was the precise rule: round or turn) and if a reaction counted as part of his turn if he was using it during his turn. Even had to question that since the wizard readied his counterspell ahead of time he should have been able to use it faster than the sorcerer and get it off before he could react with his counterspell. We never all settled on a clear answer.
Anyone have some insight on how this should work. Can you counterspell someone counterspelling you? Also, could you counterspell someone using counterspell on someone else's spell?
Edit: Thanks for clearing that up. Was really bugging me that we couldn't figure it out.
The sorcerer can do it :)
The bonus action spell rule doesn't mean that you cannot cast more than one leveled spell on your turn. You can cast two, or sometimes even three, on your turn as long as none of them use your bonus action. Here is a chart that might help you see what you can and cannot cast on your turn.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Easy answer is Yes. You can counterspell a counterspell, and if someone else has it, they can counterspell your counterspelling of counterspell.
Also, there is no rule that prevents you from casting multiple leveled spells per turn. You just can't cast a Bonus Action Spell and a Leveled spell. For example, if you had Actions Surge, you could cast two leveled single action spells and a reaction spell. But if you cast ANY bonus action spells (quickened for example) you can't cast any other leveled spells, only cantrips.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Wow there is a lot to unpack there.
But you most certainly can counter a counterspell targeting your spell. And yes the counter chain can go for as long as there are reactions available.
And I'll elaborate on the last part.
Yes, definitely. All Counterspell requires is that you see someone casting a spell. Who the caster is or what is targeted matters not. You see it, use your reaction and spell slot (and roll if necessary), nothing more to it. And as DJC mentioned, if you have multiple spellcasters around then it can create a nice long counterchain to go through to see if the original spell actually goes off or not.
This very example is given in the Sage Advice Compendium.
As others have said you can not (and don't need to anyway) hold your action so you can use your reaction to that only requires a reaction anyway. The best thing the wizard can do in such circumstances is take the dodge action making them harder to hit if the sorcerer tries to hit him with a fire bolt or something.
So question. If the sorcerer quickened a spell to use as a bonus action then they could not use their reaction to counterspell?
Exactly. If they quickened the fly spell, they would not have been able to counter the counterspell on their turn.
EDIT: Now, whether a counterspelled bonus action spell limits you to only casting a cantrip with a casting time of an action for the rest of the turn is apparently a subject of some debate.
But the point is they cannot do both :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Correct. The only other spell they can cast on that turn is a cantrip as an action. After their turn ends they can counterspell again.
Counterspell doesn't negate/prevent the casting, just negates that spell's effect.
If it did negate the casting completely, that would create a paradox where either the BA spell is countered so you can counter the counter, but then it didn't get countered so you can't cast the counter per BA casting rules, but then that puts you back where you started.
Also, if the cast is completely negated then no resources get used, which... is the complete opposite of the point of counterspell.
TLDR: the debate falls apart as soon as a third brain cell is involved.
Thanks for the responses. Being able to counterspell on the same turn you cast a full action spell and not on a turn where you cast a bonus action spell doesn't really make much sense, but it does seem to be the RAW.
Has there been any response that that sort of interaction wasn't RAI?
As far as I am aware WotC have never that RAI is different ot RAW without publishing an errata. This makes sense as if RAW is different to what they intended they should change the written rule. SAC never changes the rules but clarifies the rules either becasue a lot of people have misunderstood RAW or because RAW is ambiguous.
There are however a number of cases where Jeremy Crawford has said RAI matches RAW where in the opinion of most players it doesn't make sense. I am mot aware of a statement of RAI on this but recently Jermeny Crawford clarified on a video that it was fully intended that if a creature is invisible it attacks with advantage against creatures even if the the creature they are attacking can see invisibility and the creature with see invisbility still attacks invisible creatures with disadvantage.
So, this got me thinking about when does the game consider your spell to have been cast? I promise this is relevant to this thread :)
If I cast a quickened spell, let's say fireball, and someone counterspells it, which spell does the game consider to have been cast first? Obviously, I began casting fireball before the counterspell, but the counterspell finishes before I finish casting fireball or else fireball would go off and counterspell would be too late. We have clearly established that if you cast a spell as a bonus action, you cannot also cast counterspell on the same turn. And likewise, if you cast counterspell, you cannot cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn. And if you try to do both, the bonus action casting rule says that you can only cast the first of those spells and the second spell is invalidated and cannot be cast at all.
So if I cast a quickened fireball at level 8 and someone counterspells me and I counterspell their counterspell, I have violated the bonus action casting rule, but which of those two spells cannot be cast? It's an important question because in one case, I stand to lose an 8th level spell slot and a sorcery point and in the other case, I stand to lose a 3rd level spell slot instead. Logically, would the game consider the order of the cast spells to be fireball, counterspell, counterspell, thereby disallowing the second counterspell? Or would it be (Fireball(Counterspell(Counterspell))) in which case, the counterspell is cast first, disallowing the quickened fireball from being cast?
Does the game consider a spell to have been cast when casting begins? Or when casting ends? It can make all the difference in this situation. I cannot find RAW that defines this, but maybe you can?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Logic would seem to indicate that If the fireball isn't cast then there is nothing to counterspell in the first place.
So the first step is casting fireball as a bonus action which then limits that caster to only casting cantrips with a casting time of one action for the rest of their turn. If there is no counterspell the fireball completes as normal. If the fireball is counterspelled then the caster can not cast a counterspell because they have already cast a spell as a bonus action (the spell slot is expended).
When talking about a single chain of events - I think the bonus action spell casting (whether successful or not) must prevent the casting of other spells that aren't a cantrip with a casting time of one action even when counterspelled BECAUSE if it did not then if the character attempted to counterspell the counterspell and it is successful then they end up in a situation where they will have intrinsically broken the bonus action spell casting rule by casting a bonus action spell and a counterspell in the same turn. Since this situation is explicitly prevented by the rules then any chain of events that leads to that outcome is also not allowed.
However, more generally, I think what you are trying to ask is - IF the bonus action spell is counterspelled, then is the character still subject to the bonus action spell casting limitations since the counterspell stops the bonus action spell from being cast? Could a sorcerer try to cast a fireball as a bonus action, have that fireball counterspelled and then use their action to cast a fireball since the bonus action spell wasn't cast? Extending that further, if the character doesn't cast a bonus action spell, have they used their bonus action?
The wording of counterspell is specifically "its spell fails and has no effect". Counterspell does not say the spell isn't cast, it doesn't say the spell isn't completed. It does say you try to interrupt the caster but it doesn't say what mechanism is involved. I would tend to interpret "fails" in this context as "the spell is cast with no effect" rather than counterspell preventing the spell itself from being cast but I could see a DM ruling otherwise. However, the wording of counterspell in terms of "the spell fails and has no effect" as opposed to "the spell is interrupted and is not cast" would tend to imply to me that the spell is still cast but does nothing in which cast the rules remain consistent and the bonus action spell caster has both used their bonus action to cast a spell and is limited in terms of spells they can cast for the rest of the turn.
This is a super obvious and legitimate point, and maybe I should have spent a little time pointing out that I was not suggesting this. We can both agree that fireball has started to be cast, which kicked off the entire chain of events. And if the game considers a spell to be cast when you start the casting process, then by extension, the bonus action casting rule would also apply to when you begin to cast a spell. An example of this might be when you look at how concentrating on a new spell ends concentration on an old spell even before the new spell is finished casting. Does this mean that the new spell counts as "cast" while casting is in progress?
But if the game considers the spell to be cast when casting finishes, then, by extension, the bonus action casting rule would also apply to when you finish casting a spell. That would make fireball actually the third spell to finish casting. Logically, we might explain this as the fireball being cut off after it started, but before it was cast. Or logically, we might not. The inference of logic in this example is beside my point of trying to pin down RAW. There is some precedent for this situation in the general spellcasting rules that say if your concentration fails before you finish casting a spell, then the spell fails, but you do not expend the spell slot. This wording comes from spells that take longer than an action to cast, which none of the spells in my example do, so maybe it doesn't apply. But then again, there is no general rule that I know of that explains what happens when a spell with a casting time of an action or faster fails before casting is complete, so we really don't know if such a spell has been "cast" or not.
Lastly, I would like to point out that I am not suggesting that counterspell somehow means the fireball was not cast and that the bonus action casting rule does not apply--simply that counterspell might end up being the first spell completely cast, and it might be the spell that ends up on the allowed side of the rule. My suggestion is that the order of events might cause the bonus action spell rule to mean the fireball was never finished casting if the game defines "cast" as the spell having finished casting, since it would finish after counterspell finished.
Ultimately, the entire question comes down to the unique timing of counterspell, which inserts itself in the middle of the casting process starting after the target spell, and finishing before the target spell, thereby stifling it and causing it to fail.
So this means you come down on the "a spell is cast when you start casting it" side?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The rules don't define when a spell is "cast," but counterspell requires the casting process to be started to even be cast itself. So fireball is definitely started casting first, the casting isn't stopped by counterspell, and the BA casting rule is retroactive. All these RAW factors make the "which spell 'is cast' first" question moot. You can't even attempt to cast counterspell the same turn you cast a BA spell.