A flask of holy water costs 25 gp to buy in a store, but the cost of actually making it exceeds it. In other words, anyone selling that item for 25 gp is selling it at a loss.
A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.
At first glance, one might think it means that shop owners are selling it at cost, i.e. they're neither gaining or losing anything. However, that would be wrong. To prove my point, let's deconstruct each element required for making a flask of holy water.
A flask to contain the holy water.
Enough water to fit in a flask.
Powdered silver worth 25 gp.
One hour to perform a special ritual.
A cleric or paladin.
A 1st-level spell slot.
The first three elements are easy. A flask costs 2 cp. Water is readily available and shouldn't cost anything. It doesn't even have to be drinkable. Putting a price on it would be like putting a price on plucked grass. The powdered silver is easy because it clearly specifies its cost. The last three elements are more complicated. How much one hour of work is worth depends on whether or not the service provider is skilled. We'll have to take a look at what the Player's Handbook says on the matter.
Skilled hirelings [2 gp per day] include anyone hired to perform a service that involves a proficiency (including weapon, tool, or skill): a mercenary, artisan, scribe, and so on. The pay shown is a minimum; some expert hirelings require more pay. Untrained hirelings [2 sp per day] are hired for menial work that requires no particular skill and can include laborers, porters, maids, and similar workers.
Despite not actually requiring the use of a proficiency, one could argue that the fact that the special ritual can only be performed by a cleric or paladin could mean that it's skilled work. Not anyone can do it, so it can't be untrained. However, one hour is not a full day, so we need to determine how many work hours are required to count as one day of work. Thankfully, we can find the answer in the Player's Handbook.
Periods of downtime can vary in duration, but each downtime activity requires a certain number of days to complete before you gain any benefit, and at least 8 hours of each day must be spent on the downtime activity for the day to count.
This means that one hour of work costs 25 cp (if skilled) or 2.5 cp (if untrained). However, this may become irrelevant once you consider the last element: a 1st-level spell slot. There isn't really a rule that tells you how much spell slots are worth in money, but the Player's Handbook does have something about spellcasting services.
Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell of 1st or 2nd level, such as cure wounds or identify, is easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10 to 50 gold pieces (plus the cost of any expensive material components).
That's significantly more expensive than 2.5 to 25 copper pieces. It also unfortunately doesn't say anything about rituals that require 600 times the time needed to cast a spell. Should both methods for calculating the cost be combined or should it be handwaved as being closer to 50 gp due to the time needed? The fact that the special ritual doesn't require a specific spell to be prepared for the day should also affect the cost. There's not a precise cost for the last three elements combined, which leaves the decision up to the DM.
One thing is for certain: crafting holy water costs more than just buying it. It makes no sense for a player to want to spend 25 gp for the powdered silver, 2 cp for the flask, one hour of downtime that can't be part of a short rest, and one 1st-level spell slot to make holy water when they can just buy it at a shop for 25 gp. It also makes no sense for a store owner to sell an item at a loss when they also have a shop and staff to maintain.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
A lot of things likely cost far less than the mechanical use they would provide to the average person, but that's what willing suspension of disbelief is for.
You are correct. This item cost vs crafting makes no sense. I usually only have it available at a temple or something like that where priests have copious amounts of downtime and use some of their donations to make this item as a public service. If a trader does aquire some, they basically have to sell it at the same price if there's a temple near by otherwise there's a slight markup. Sometimes I might drop powdered silver as a reward so players can make it on the go if they are not near a town. I don't track flask count/cost. Unless someone is a heavy potion crafter, it's just not worth the time. So yeah it's very situational to craft since buying it makes so much more sense.
D&D does not make even the barest attempt at being an economics simulator. Item prices are based on game balance factors, and even those can be really iffy.
And the game has never really been about crafting. The idea has always been to get new loot by taking it from defeated enemies, not sitting in town making your own stuff. So the crafting rules are typically designed to make crafting things on your own the less attractive option.
And if you’re looking for in-game logic. Temples sell it at a loss because they support the idea of people fighting undead, and want to subsidize the effort.
It's not likely that shops are going to sell holy water. You'll probably find it being sold at churches. This means a couple of things. First, the church doesn't need to pay to have the spell cast. If they have a priest who can cast it, they're good, and if they don't, they're not selling holy water (and neither is anyone else in that community). Second, the purpose of a church is to support its community, not to turn a profit. It makes perfect sense that they'd sell services at a loss and make up the difference in tithes and donations.
I've always wondered how they stuff 250 silver pieces into a flask.
This is what has always struck me as funny. I looked it up and the 5 pounds of silver needed to make the holy water would be 45.7% silver by volume, assuming that a flask of holy water and a flask of oil have the same volume of one pint.
Powdered Silver is a result from an alchemical process and doesn't have the same value by weight as silver coins.
Holy Water is made at cost/a small loss by local religious orders to promote the destruction of undead. Think of it as a community service the various churches fulfill. It does the world good that it be ready, available, and cheap to anyone brave enough to employ it.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Powdered Silver is a result from an alchemical process and doesn't have the same value by weight as silver coins.
5e seems to have made an effort for all materials to have a consistent value by weight regardless of form. It is probably to prevent players from being able to turn money into more money using magic.
A level 2 forge cleric could make 100 GP worth of powdered silver every 2 hours, and even more once they get fabricate. Turning 4 sp into 1000 sp in this way would make money fast (easily 400+ GP per day of downtime).
Manufactured items are usually worth double the value of their raw materials for this reason.
I like the explanation of only temples actually selling this stuff as a public service. When I was thinking about it as a DM, I considered either changing the price (which is not preferable because I prefer RAW) or only having it sold by nonprofit temples who want to help the community protect themselves against the undead. Outside of not having access to such a temple, it's not cost efficient for adventurers to craft it. Most items can be crafted at half the cost in terms of raw material.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
I like the explanation of only temples actually selling this stuff as a public service. When I was thinking about it as a DM, I considered either changing the price (which is not preferable because I prefer RAW) or only having it sold by nonprofit temples who want to help the community protect themselves against the undead. Outside of not having access to such a temple, it's not cost efficient for adventurers to craft it. Most items can be crafted at half the cost in terms of raw material.
If you are considering a house rule, I suggest lowering the silver powder component to 12 GP. The sell price is fine for that effect.
But as you and others have said, I also like the idea that churches sell it at cost as a service to ward against undead/fiends.
A flask of holy water costs 25 gp to buy in a store, but the cost of actually making it exceeds it. In other words, anyone selling that item for 25 gp is selling it at a loss.
At first glance, one might think it means that shop owners are selling it at cost, i.e. they're neither gaining or losing anything. However, that would be wrong. To prove my point, let's deconstruct each element required for making a flask of holy water.
The first three elements are easy. A flask costs 2 cp. Water is readily available and shouldn't cost anything. It doesn't even have to be drinkable. Putting a price on it would be like putting a price on plucked grass. The powdered silver is easy because it clearly specifies its cost. The last three elements are more complicated. How much one hour of work is worth depends on whether or not the service provider is skilled. We'll have to take a look at what the Player's Handbook says on the matter.
Despite not actually requiring the use of a proficiency, one could argue that the fact that the special ritual can only be performed by a cleric or paladin could mean that it's skilled work. Not anyone can do it, so it can't be untrained. However, one hour is not a full day, so we need to determine how many work hours are required to count as one day of work. Thankfully, we can find the answer in the Player's Handbook.
This means that one hour of work costs 25 cp (if skilled) or 2.5 cp (if untrained). However, this may become irrelevant once you consider the last element: a 1st-level spell slot. There isn't really a rule that tells you how much spell slots are worth in money, but the Player's Handbook does have something about spellcasting services.
That's significantly more expensive than 2.5 to 25 copper pieces. It also unfortunately doesn't say anything about rituals that require 600 times the time needed to cast a spell. Should both methods for calculating the cost be combined or should it be handwaved as being closer to 50 gp due to the time needed? The fact that the special ritual doesn't require a specific spell to be prepared for the day should also affect the cost. There's not a precise cost for the last three elements combined, which leaves the decision up to the DM.
One thing is for certain: crafting holy water costs more than just buying it. It makes no sense for a player to want to spend 25 gp for the powdered silver, 2 cp for the flask, one hour of downtime that can't be part of a short rest, and one 1st-level spell slot to make holy water when they can just buy it at a shop for 25 gp. It also makes no sense for a store owner to sell an item at a loss when they also have a shop and staff to maintain.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
A lot of things likely cost far less than the mechanical use they would provide to the average person, but that's what willing suspension of disbelief is for.
You are correct. This item cost vs crafting makes no sense. I usually only have it available at a temple or something like that where priests have copious amounts of downtime and use some of their donations to make this item as a public service. If a trader does aquire some, they basically have to sell it at the same price if there's a temple near by otherwise there's a slight markup. Sometimes I might drop powdered silver as a reward so players can make it on the go if they are not near a town. I don't track flask count/cost. Unless someone is a heavy potion crafter, it's just not worth the time. So yeah it's very situational to craft since buying it makes so much more sense.
D&D does not make even the barest attempt at being an economics simulator. Item prices are based on game balance factors, and even those can be really iffy.
And the game has never really been about crafting. The idea has always been to get new loot by taking it from defeated enemies, not sitting in town making your own stuff. So the crafting rules are typically designed to make crafting things on your own the less attractive option.
And if you’re looking for in-game logic. Temples sell it at a loss because they support the idea of people fighting undead, and want to subsidize the effort.
It's not likely that shops are going to sell holy water. You'll probably find it being sold at churches. This means a couple of things. First, the church doesn't need to pay to have the spell cast. If they have a priest who can cast it, they're good, and if they don't, they're not selling holy water (and neither is anyone else in that community). Second, the purpose of a church is to support its community, not to turn a profit. It makes perfect sense that they'd sell services at a loss and make up the difference in tithes and donations.
I've always wondered how they stuff 250 silver pieces into a flask.
If you guys knew how holy water is made in real life you would be real mad at the game price. Not just upset like now.
This is what has always struck me as funny. I looked it up and the 5 pounds of silver needed to make the holy water would be 45.7% silver by volume, assuming that a flask of holy water and a flask of oil have the same volume of one pint.
Remember that it is the value not the volume.
It could just be 1 silver piece and the rest is the manufacture of the powder.
D&D is not an economics simulator.
There are plenty of things in the game that make little or no sense. Ridiculously high (or low or nonexistant) labour costs. Weird ingredient costs.
Just go with it. Don't try to fix it - that way madness lies. :-)
Prior editions have noted that temples deliberately sell holy water at cost, without any markup for labor.
Powdered Silver is a result from an alchemical process and doesn't have the same value by weight as silver coins.
Holy Water is made at cost/a small loss by local religious orders to promote the destruction of undead. Think of it as a community service the various churches fulfill. It does the world good that it be ready, available, and cheap to anyone brave enough to employ it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
5e seems to have made an effort for all materials to have a consistent value by weight regardless of form. It is probably to prevent players from being able to turn money into more money using magic.
A level 2 forge cleric could make 100 GP worth of powdered silver every 2 hours, and even more once they get fabricate. Turning 4 sp into 1000 sp in this way would make money fast (easily 400+ GP per day of downtime).
Manufactured items are usually worth double the value of their raw materials for this reason.
I like the explanation of only temples actually selling this stuff as a public service. When I was thinking about it as a DM, I considered either changing the price (which is not preferable because I prefer RAW) or only having it sold by nonprofit temples who want to help the community protect themselves against the undead. Outside of not having access to such a temple, it's not cost efficient for adventurers to craft it. Most items can be crafted at half the cost in terms of raw material.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
If you are considering a house rule, I suggest lowering the silver powder component to 12 GP. The sell price is fine for that effect.
But as you and others have said, I also like the idea that churches sell it at cost as a service to ward against undead/fiends.
The best explanation is that it's charity. Well, unless you're an evil aligned cleric and paladin.