Anyways. Picture, if you will, a Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion.
I'll take this as the hypothetical it is. My only objection is you need to flip the levels. Wizard 1/Cleric a Billion. I'll be responding as if that was what you meant. Since we are talking about wizard spells known and fireball etc.
The multiclass rules say to prepare your spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class." So, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, this Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion is effectively just a Cleric 1. This is the most literal interpretation of RAW, and I am making absolutely zero leaps in logic or assumptions here (although I'm sure you'll say that I am anyways).
RAW: You prepare them as a single classed member. I'm with you on this hypothetical still. You follow the rules for preparing as if you had that feature as a level 1 wizard.
We do need to point out here that we still have our Billion+1th level spell Slots though. Since spell slots are not calculated in the prepare rules.
Derive slots as multiclass
Prepare spells as single class
Single class prepare says can prepare any level we have slots for
Check. Check. Check. I'm right there with you so far. Just a level 1 wizard with billions of spell slots.
Of course, a Cleric 1 does not have the spell slots of a Wizard a Billion. This is pure fact still.
Annnnd you lost me. By RAW you do: You're a level 1 wizard with billions of slots.
Since the rules say to treat this situation as if I were a Cleric 1, the rules for spell slots when multiclassing (and the spell slots gained as a result of said rules) do not apply here, since I am effectively not multiclassing.
That'd be true if the spell slot rules was a subsection of the prepared spell rule. It isn't. It is a separate rule. You prepare your spells as a single class while having the spell slots of a multiclass. RAW anyway. Because they are 2 different simultaneous rules. The preparation rules do not change anything about the slot rules.
--Switching from RAW to RAI--
RAI: Of course that's how it is supposed to work.
If, on my fourth Wizard level, I took your nebulous and largely irrelevant feat giving me a 3rd level spell slot, it would also not apply, since I would effectively never have gotten the Ability Score Improvement feature from being a fourth level Wizard. Since the rules direct to prepare cleric spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class," I would only have the normal 2 1st-level spell slots that a Cleric 1 would have for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
The Preparing and Casting Spells section of Cleric directs as follows:
You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have a spell slot.
Since, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, the only spells that I have a spell slot for are 1st-level, I could prepare a number of 1st-level cleric spells equal to my Wisdom modifier + my cleric level (minimum of one spell). I could not prepare any cleric spells of a higher level, since I do not effectively have any 2nd-level or higher spell slots for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
It was intended that it works exactly like what you're saying. You have zero dispute from me there, I fully understand the RAI. We have an accord. This is the way you should play the game. 100%.
Maybe all of your claims on the rules wouldn't be so argued against if people ever believed that they were right. Alas.
I honestly have no idea what the issue is here. We all agree how you're supposed to play. The RAI is exceedingly clear. I agree with you and everyone exactly how the RAI works. The authors want you to make believe that you are only a level 1 wizard and any features you gained from anything other than your levels of wizard should be ignored, up to and including retroactively removing all your multiclass spell slots, ignoring the written multiclass rules for calculating those spell slots, and then granting you new slots from the class table but then immediately undoing all that again after you finished preparing spells. We agree. That's the intent. I openly agree. I can't agree harder if you try convincing me more. Because I'm already fully 100% there, total agreement.
It just, ain't the RAW. What is written, in the rules, doesn't fully sync up with what they intended. The examples clear it up though.
There is literally zero reason to try to convince me what the RAI is or how you're supposed to play these rules. I agree with you there. The only thing we disagree on seems to be the definition of what RAW is. I think it means: rules as written. To be RAW means to be a rule. And to be written in the rulebook and interpreted as it is written (ie without outside context). If that's what you have an issue with I'd encourage a second topic be opened where we discuss that. Otherwise my point here stands. RAW, the multiclass rules for prepared spells have some holes in them. And RAI is perfectly clear how it should work, a ruling we all are in agreement on and needn't rehash.
This is a RAW argument. I'm not talking about RAI. I am saying that your interpretation of the Rules as Written doesn't make sense. I have been explaining why your interpretation of the Rules as Written doesn't make sense. I haven't said a peep about Rules as Intended.
The multiclass preparation rules tell you to ignore any other classes, and any features gained from them (including the ways that they change your spell slots per the multiclassing rules), when deciding what spells you can prepare. This means that you shouldn't consider how your spell slots are, but how they would be if you only had levels in the class you are preparing for. When the rules tell you to only consider your Wizard spell slots and nothing else, saying "but what about all the spell slots that I get from multiclassing" is absurd. The rules explicitly told you to ignore any other classes, so why would you keep the spell slots you get from multiclassing into other classes when considering what spells you can prepare? For the purposes of preparing spells, you never took any levels in those classes. So how come you get extra slots? You don't. You don't get extra slots. To make it clear (even though I say "for the purposes of preparing" every time I talk about spell slots, which should be clear enough), I'm not saying that you only get spell slots as if you only had one class. I am saying that you only prepare spell slots as if you only get spell slots from one class.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
All they'd need to do to fix the RAW is standardize some of the phrasing across classes. They got it correct on some of them. Compare, Bard vs Wizard:
The Spells Known column of the Bard table shows when you learn more bard spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
and
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
If they had simply written it the same way, and printed:
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table.
There wouldn't be an issue.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I agree that that would be simpler. I disagree that there is an issue.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
If they had simply written it the same way, and printed:
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table.
There wouldn't be an issue.
...there is no issue, as myself and others have pointed out.
"Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind...With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook."
If it's not in your spellbook, you cannot cast it. You can add spells to your book in two ways.
#1 "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table." (emphasis mine, because you learn new spells as a single class, not a multiclass.)
and #2 "Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it." (emphasis mine, because again: you learn new spells as a single class, not a multiclass.)
It looks like maybe you're taking that phrase in isolation from the multiclass restriction that you learn new spells as your individual single classes, not a multiclass? In both case you're only ever looking at one class at a time. In the case of the OP, neither a Level 1 sorc nor a level 4 wizard has access to 3rd spells on their own, as shown on their class tables. Not going anywhere near your weird special-case feat that lets you learn a 3rd level spell...
I can see how you might want the language cleaned up or the rule wordings clearer, but this is all exceedingly settled RAW.
Your friend should read the Chapter 6: Multiclassing: Class Features: Spellcasting: Spell Slots again. The simple answer is RAW/RAI no:the rules don't work like that.
As a full spellcaster (despite being mixed) he does have 3rd level spell slots. He does not have genuine 3rd level spells through being a spellcaster yet. He can upcast a spell he already knows and has prepared: which are his 2nd level spells, just given a bit more of a kick. True 3rd level spells are still too powerful for him. He cannot prepare the spell. How is he planning to cast a spell that he can't even prepare?
If he goes 1S/5W next level, then yes, he's ready to learn that spell, because now he can actually cast true 3rd level spells. But first, it's going to cost him. Fireball takes 6 hours (to copy from someone else's spellbook to yours) and costs 150gp (unless your DM decides material costs are higher).
Also, your friend isn't even considering the fact that the reason why spellbooks take so long to transcribe over is because other wizard spellbooks could have bad handwriting, or be written in a different language, or maybe have a cipher or a puzzle involved in the translation of it. Or maybe because you also have to learn the hand gestures and fancy footwork and the words involved in the casting of the spell in addition to tracking down specific ingredients. You can't just take another person's spellbook and immediately cast unless your DM decides you can.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
No, in this case it is not possible to misunderstand the rules. Spells are prepared separately for each class, so you need to have access to level 3 spells in at least one of your classes in order to cast fireball. In the case proposed by the OP, neither sorecerer lvl 1 nor wizard level 4 have access to level 3 spells, so they cannot prepare the spell with any of their classes and therefore cannot cast it.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table.
Adding that bit in red would be required to make it fully RAW. Without it your single classed Spells Prepared rules do not reference back to your class chart, they reference back to your actual spell slots. And those you have quite a few of, and at higher level.
The only reason we know the correct reference back target is because of the Intent that the examples give us. RAI is super clear. RAW has a hole.
Is it settled rules? Yes. Everyone knows to reference back to their class chart even if not all the classes actually say to. That's just how it is done.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table.
Adding that bit in red would be required to make it fully RAW. Without it your single classed Spells Prepared rules do not reference back to your class chart, they reference back to your actual spell slots. And those you have quite a few of, and at higher level.
...How did it get in the spellbook, then?
If you're correct, and the sentence you want to modify is the primary sentence for understanding this concept... how did a 3rd level spell get in the spellbook in the first place?
(IE: show me the sentence in the rules that allows a 4th level wizard to add a 3rd-level spell to his spellbook.)
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table.
Adding that bit in red would be required to make it fully RAW. Without it your single classed Spells Prepared rules do not reference back to your class chart, they reference back to your actual spell slots. And those you have quite a few of, and at higher level.
...How did it get in the spellbook, then?
If you're correct, and the sentence you want to modify is the primary sentence for understanding this concept... how did a 3rd level spell get in the spellbook in the first place?
(IE: show me the sentence in the rules that allows a 4th level wizard to add a 3rd-level spell to his spellbook.)
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ravnodaus, how do you keep ignoring the same point, even when multiple people give it to you. When the book tells you to act like you only have one class, you wouldn't consider any spell slots from multiclassing since, effectively, you aren't multiclassing. For the purposes of preparing, the multiclass spell slot table doesn't matter. You consistently just say "that's not RAW," despite the rules literally telling you to ignore other classes.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Ravnodaus, how do you keep ignoring the same point, even when multiple people give it to you. When the book tells you to act like you only have one class, you wouldn't consider any spell slots from multiclassing since, effectively, you aren't multiclassing. For the purposes of preparing, the multiclass spell slot table doesn't matter. You consistently just say "that's not RAW," despite the rules literally telling you to ignore other classes.
I'm not ignoring, I'm refuting you. Your argument replies on us modifying a feature that the rules don't tell us to modify. When you treat yourself as a single classed member, you do so for the Prepared Spells rule. Not for the Multiclass Slots rule. You insist we must treat ourselves as single classed for the multiclass spell slots rule yet nothing in the book actually says to do that.
I understand your argument, it just isn't correct.
If the spellcasting feature for each class self-referenced that their single class slots, if they did in fact reference their class table for those slots, similar to Bard (above) this wouldn't be an issue. Absent something telling us that our spell slots are also to be treated as single classed slots, they aren't.
As a multiclass character you don't derive your slots from a class feature. So pretending you're only a L1 wizard has zero effect on your slots, since that isn't how your slots are determined anymore.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
This is from the multiclass spell slots section. It highlights the issue with casting a 3rd level spell very clearly. As a Level 3 wizard you don't know any 3rd level spells. But, if you did, you could prepare them and cast them just fine. But on merit of simply leveling up, gaining only the spells from those level ups, to L3 wizard, you do not know any 3rd level spells.
But are you forbidden from learning them? No. You're not. So if we can get a 3rd level spell known, a Fireball, into our spellbook, we would be able to prepare and cast it.
So lets take a closer look at that Fulminating Treatise again. It allows you to swap a wizard spell you have prepared for a different evocation spell within it. It has Fireball. So if we swap our normally prepared 1st level spell Magic Missile, for the Fireball spell within this spellbook, we would now have Fireball prepared.
We are now a Wiz 3 that can cast fireball. Since we know it (it is in our spellbook), we have it prepared, and we have the spell slot to cast it with.
Moreover, since we can prepare a 3rd level spell, demonstrably, we can also learn other 3rd level spells using our normal Spellbook feature for learning new spells. This spellbook makes a single level dip into wizard, on another caster, extremely powerful. Very RAW rulings here, not sure anyone has even tried to address them.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ravnodaus, how do you keep ignoring the same point, even when multiple people give it to you. When the book tells you to act like you only have one class, you wouldn't consider any spell slots from multiclassing since, effectively, you aren't multiclassing. For the purposes of preparing, the multiclass spell slot table doesn't matter. You consistently just say "that's not RAW," despite the rules literally telling you to ignore other classes.
I'm not ignoring, I'm refuting you. Your argument replies on us modifying a feature that the rules don't tell us to modify. When you treat yourself as a single classed member, you do so for the Prepared Spells rule. Not for the Multiclass Slots rule. You insist we must treat ourselves as single classed for the multiclass spell slots rule yet nothing in the book actually says to do that.
I understand your argument, it just isn't correct.
If the spellcasting feature for each class self-referenced that their single class slots, if they did in fact reference their class table for those slots, similar to Bard (above) this wouldn't be an issue. Absent something telling us that our spell slots are also to be treated as single classed slots, they aren't.
As a multiclass character you don't derive your slots from a class feature. So pretending you're only a L1 wizard has zero effect on your slots, since that isn't how your slots are determined anymore.
I'm not saying that multiclassed characters are treated like single classed characters for spell slots. I've made that abundantly clear, but since it doesn't seem to be getting through to you, I guess I'll just have to make it a bit more obvious going on.
If you treat yourself as a single-classed character for ANY purpose, you will not use the multiclass spell slot rules (for that purpose), since (for that purpose) the multiclass spell rules don't APPLY, since (for that purpose) you would have spell slots as if you only had one class, because (for that purpose) you don't have any other classes. HOW ARE YOU USING THE MULTICLASS SPELL SLOTS IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CLASS (for that purpose)? How is this so hard for you to understand?????????
What do you think it means when a rule says to prepare spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class?" I think where you are going wrong is in "as if." As if means you pretend something is different for the purposes of a specific thing. It does not mean... well, whatever the hell you seem to think it means. I have genuinely no idea what you think it means, but it certainly isn't right.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
Fair. That is a way to gain access to the fireball spell as a 4th level wizard (who has higher level slots from multiclassing).
I feel like that's an obvious edge case. It's a rare wondrous magic item; not exactly standard issue. Magic items and homebrew feats can skirt normal rules, but that's a given for literally any discussion of any rule.
Would you agree that a 4th level wizard cannot normally gain Fireball as a known spell? Because I feel like you're acknowledging the RAW restriction by saying "here's a magic item that gets you something you normally couldn't get."
Even with one of the Tasha's Special Spellbooks that comes with automatic spells, a strict reading of the Multiclass rules still wouldn't let you cast a wizard spell that's too high a level for a single-class wizard of your level to cast, regardless of whether or not you had a spell slot of the appropriate level.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Even with one of the Tasha's Special Spellbooks that comes with automatic spells, a strict reading of the Multiclass rules still wouldn't let you cast a wizard spell that's too high a level for a single-class wizard of your level to cast, regardless of whether or not you had a spell slot of the appropriate level.
Care to explain why? I see you've made an assertion, what is the rational.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you're correct, and the sentence you want to modify is the primary sentence for understanding this concept... how did a 3rd level spell get in the spellbook in the first place?
(IE: show me the sentence in the rules that allows a 4th level wizard to add a 3rd-level spell to his spellbook.)
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
See, this is a less clear rule.
If you spend 1 minute studying the book, you can expend 1 charge to replace one of your prepared wizard spells with a different spell in the book. The new spell must be of the evocation school.
The way I see it, this has 2 ways to be interpreted:
Because the new evocation spell becomes prepared, it must follow the rules for preparing spells normally, which puts us right back at the multiclass rules preventing it (probably RAI).
The prepared spell is replaced by the evocation spell without any other checks, theoretically allowing a level 1 wizard with no multiclass to "prepare" fireball, but not have slots to cast it with.
With that very jank rulling, a wizard 1/sorc 4 could get fireball "prepared".
Personally, I would go with ruling 1 since it makes sense.
"Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level."
Chapter 6: Multiclassing, Subsection: Spellcasting ; Subrule: Spells Known and Prepared.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
If you're correct, and the sentence you want to modify is the primary sentence for understanding this concept... how did a 3rd level spell get in the spellbook in the first place?
(IE: show me the sentence in the rules that allows a 4th level wizard to add a 3rd-level spell to his spellbook.)
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
See, this is a less clear rule.
If you spend 1 minute studying the book, you can expend 1 charge to replace one of your prepared wizard spells with a different spell in the book. The new spell must be of the evocation school.
The way I see it, this has 2 ways to be interpreted:
Because the new evocation spell becomes prepared, it must follow the rules for preparing spells normally, which puts us right back at the multiclass rules preventing it (probably RAI).
The prepared spell is replaced by the evocation spell without any other checks, theoretically allowing a level 1 wizard with no multiclass to "prepare" fireball, but not have slots to cast it with.
With that very jank rulling, a wizard 1/sorc 4 could get fireball "prepared".
Personally, I would go with ruling 1 since it makes sense.
If you're applying a restriction that the rules don't tell you to apply, you're crossing into homebrew territory with that answer.
Claiming it to be RAI here is tricky because this is supposed to be a magic item that allows you to cast these spells. That is clearly the intent. So arguing it doesn't let you cast them if we add an extra restriction not listed here goes against the spirit of what the item does. If it had any such restriction is would say as much.
Even still, if we apply this item to our multiclass character it is very clear he can prepare them if he has the spell slots to do it, they're in his spellbook.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
Fair. That is a way to gain access to the fireball spell as a 4th level wizard (who has higher level slots from multiclassing).
I feel like that's an obvious edge case. It's a rare wondrous magic item; not exactly standard issue. Magic items and homebrew feats can skirt normal rules, but that's a given for literally any discussion of any rule.
Would you agree that a 4th level wizard cannot normally gain Fireball as a known spell? Because I feel like you're acknowledging the RAW restriction by saying "here's a magic item that gets you something you normally couldn't get."
And Optional Rules. Magic Items, Optional Rules, Feats, yes many things can skirt normal rules.
And, I agree a 4th level wizard cannot normally cast a fireball. He'd need something beyond just that to allow it to happen. Some optional rule or special scenario would be required. Something like a magic item, or an optional rule like Multi-classing, or some other feature, or even some combination thereof. But just a 4th level wizard in a vacuum? No. But could a 4th level wizard with the right combination of special circumstances? Yes.
I fully acknowledge How-To-Play it. But, if we get into the nitty-gritty of what the pages actually say, then yeah, a multiclass wizard can learn, prepare, and cast higher level spells than you'd expect. But the Intent is not to do that. And it isn't at all balanced. No one should ever play like that unless they're already off the deep end into high powered stuff, we're talking nearly gestalt levels overpowered here. Not recommended for actual play.
But purely academic? Yeah, the words say what they say. There is a hole there, in the RAW, for a couple of the classes Spellcasting feature. It isn't even all of the classes, just a few of them, Wizard included. And Wizard compounds it because of how they can add spells known to their list.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
What do you think it means when a rule says to prepare spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class?"
Anything that is based on your level is treated as just your wizard level alone. Like how many spells you can prepare.
I think where you are going wrong is in "as if." As if means you pretend something is different for the purposes of a specific thing. It does not mean... well, whatever the hell you seem to think it means. I have genuinely no idea what you think it means, but it certainly isn't right.
Okay riddle me this. You started with a 16 Int. And, when you hit 4th level in Cleric you took the ASI and added 2 to your intelligence. You're a Cleric 4 / Wizard 1.
Do you prepare 4 or 5 wizard spells?
I mean, if you're supposed to unwind time and disregard anything and everything other than your one level of wizard, you would have an Int of 16 still. That is the result of your argument. But, I urge you to try it here in DnDBeyond. You'll find your 18 Int Cleric4/Wiz1 can indeed prepare 5 spells. It isn't me who is confused on how this works. If it were, this character would prepare 4.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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This is a RAW argument. I'm not talking about RAI. I am saying that your interpretation of the Rules as Written doesn't make sense. I have been explaining why your interpretation of the Rules as Written doesn't make sense. I haven't said a peep about Rules as Intended.
The multiclass preparation rules tell you to ignore any other classes, and any features gained from them (including the ways that they change your spell slots per the multiclassing rules), when deciding what spells you can prepare. This means that you shouldn't consider how your spell slots are, but how they would be if you only had levels in the class you are preparing for. When the rules tell you to only consider your Wizard spell slots and nothing else, saying "but what about all the spell slots that I get from multiclassing" is absurd. The rules explicitly told you to ignore any other classes, so why would you keep the spell slots you get from multiclassing into other classes when considering what spells you can prepare? For the purposes of preparing spells, you never took any levels in those classes. So how come you get extra slots? You don't. You don't get extra slots. To make it clear (even though I say "for the purposes of preparing" every time I talk about spell slots, which should be clear enough), I'm not saying that you only get spell slots as if you only had one class. I am saying that you only prepare spell slots as if you only get spell slots from one class.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
All they'd need to do to fix the RAW is standardize some of the phrasing across classes. They got it correct on some of them. Compare, Bard vs Wizard:
and
If they had simply written it the same way, and printed:
There wouldn't be an issue.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I agree that that would be simpler. I disagree that there is an issue.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
...there is no issue, as myself and others have pointed out.
"Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind...With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook."
If it's not in your spellbook, you cannot cast it. You can add spells to your book in two ways.
#1 "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table." (emphasis mine, because you learn new spells as a single class, not a multiclass.)
and #2 "Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it." (emphasis mine, because again: you learn new spells as a single class, not a multiclass.)
It looks like maybe you're taking that phrase in isolation from the multiclass restriction that you learn new spells as your individual single classes, not a multiclass? In both case you're only ever looking at one class at a time. In the case of the OP, neither a Level 1 sorc nor a level 4 wizard has access to 3rd spells on their own, as shown on their class tables. Not going anywhere near your weird special-case feat that lets you learn a 3rd level spell...
I can see how you might want the language cleaned up or the rule wordings clearer, but this is all exceedingly settled RAW.
Your friend should read the Chapter 6: Multiclassing: Class Features: Spellcasting: Spell Slots again. The simple answer is RAW/RAI no: the rules don't work like that.
As a full spellcaster (despite being mixed) he does have 3rd level spell slots. He does not have genuine 3rd level spells through being a spellcaster yet. He can upcast a spell he already knows and has prepared: which are his 2nd level spells, just given a bit more of a kick. True 3rd level spells are still too powerful for him. He cannot prepare the spell. How is he planning to cast a spell that he can't even prepare?
If he goes 1S/5W next level, then yes, he's ready to learn that spell, because now he can actually cast true 3rd level spells. But first, it's going to cost him. Fireball takes 6 hours (to copy from someone else's spellbook to yours) and costs 150gp (unless your DM decides material costs are higher).
Also, your friend isn't even considering the fact that the reason why spellbooks take so long to transcribe over is because other wizard spellbooks could have bad handwriting, or be written in a different language, or maybe have a cipher or a puzzle involved in the translation of it. Or maybe because you also have to learn the hand gestures and fancy footwork and the words involved in the casting of the spell in addition to tracking down specific ingredients. You can't just take another person's spellbook and immediately cast unless your DM decides you can.
No, in this case it is not possible to misunderstand the rules. Spells are prepared separately for each class, so you need to have access to level 3 spells in at least one of your classes in order to cast fireball.
In the case proposed by the OP, neither sorecerer lvl 1 nor wizard level 4 have access to level 3 spells, so they cannot prepare the spell with any of their classes and therefore cannot cast it.
Adding that bit in red would be required to make it fully RAW. Without it your single classed Spells Prepared rules do not reference back to your class chart, they reference back to your actual spell slots. And those you have quite a few of, and at higher level.
The only reason we know the correct reference back target is because of the Intent that the examples give us. RAI is super clear. RAW has a hole.
Is it settled rules? Yes. Everyone knows to reference back to their class chart even if not all the classes actually say to. That's just how it is done.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
...How did it get in the spellbook, then?
If you're correct, and the sentence you want to modify is the primary sentence for understanding this concept... how did a 3rd level spell get in the spellbook in the first place?
(IE: show me the sentence in the rules that allows a 4th level wizard to add a 3rd-level spell to his spellbook.)
Well here's a straightforward way that is pretty hard to argue against: Fulminating Treatise
It even has our Fireball spell in it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ravnodaus, how do you keep ignoring the same point, even when multiple people give it to you. When the book tells you to act like you only have one class, you wouldn't consider any spell slots from multiclassing since, effectively, you aren't multiclassing. For the purposes of preparing, the multiclass spell slot table doesn't matter. You consistently just say "that's not RAW," despite the rules literally telling you to ignore other classes.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I'm not ignoring, I'm refuting you. Your argument replies on us modifying a feature that the rules don't tell us to modify. When you treat yourself as a single classed member, you do so for the Prepared Spells rule. Not for the Multiclass Slots rule. You insist we must treat ourselves as single classed for the multiclass spell slots rule yet nothing in the book actually says to do that.
I understand your argument, it just isn't correct.
If the spellcasting feature for each class self-referenced that their single class slots, if they did in fact reference their class table for those slots, similar to Bard (above) this wouldn't be an issue. Absent something telling us that our spell slots are also to be treated as single classed slots, they aren't.
As a multiclass character you don't derive your slots from a class feature. So pretending you're only a L1 wizard has zero effect on your slots, since that isn't how your slots are determined anymore.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This is from the multiclass spell slots section. It highlights the issue with casting a 3rd level spell very clearly. As a Level 3 wizard you don't know any 3rd level spells. But, if you did, you could prepare them and cast them just fine. But on merit of simply leveling up, gaining only the spells from those level ups, to L3 wizard, you do not know any 3rd level spells.
But are you forbidden from learning them? No. You're not. So if we can get a 3rd level spell known, a Fireball, into our spellbook, we would be able to prepare and cast it.
So lets take a closer look at that Fulminating Treatise again. It allows you to swap a wizard spell you have prepared for a different evocation spell within it. It has Fireball. So if we swap our normally prepared 1st level spell Magic Missile, for the Fireball spell within this spellbook, we would now have Fireball prepared.
We are now a Wiz 3 that can cast fireball. Since we know it (it is in our spellbook), we have it prepared, and we have the spell slot to cast it with.
Moreover, since we can prepare a 3rd level spell, demonstrably, we can also learn other 3rd level spells using our normal Spellbook feature for learning new spells. This spellbook makes a single level dip into wizard, on another caster, extremely powerful. Very RAW rulings here, not sure anyone has even tried to address them.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not saying that multiclassed characters are treated like single classed characters for spell slots. I've made that abundantly clear, but since it doesn't seem to be getting through to you, I guess I'll just have to make it a bit more obvious going on.
If you treat yourself as a single-classed character for ANY purpose, you will not use the multiclass spell slot rules (for that purpose), since (for that purpose) the multiclass spell rules don't APPLY, since (for that purpose) you would have spell slots as if you only had one class, because (for that purpose) you don't have any other classes. HOW ARE YOU USING THE MULTICLASS SPELL SLOTS IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CLASS (for that purpose)? How is this so hard for you to understand?????????
What do you think it means when a rule says to prepare spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class?" I think where you are going wrong is in "as if." As if means you pretend something is different for the purposes of a specific thing. It does not mean... well, whatever the hell you seem to think it means. I have genuinely no idea what you think it means, but it certainly isn't right.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Fair. That is a way to gain access to the fireball spell as a 4th level wizard (who has higher level slots from multiclassing).
I feel like that's an obvious edge case. It's a rare wondrous magic item; not exactly standard issue. Magic items and homebrew feats can skirt normal rules, but that's a given for literally any discussion of any rule.
Would you agree that a 4th level wizard cannot normally gain Fireball as a known spell? Because I feel like you're acknowledging the RAW restriction by saying "here's a magic item that gets you something you normally couldn't get."
Even with one of the Tasha's Special Spellbooks that comes with automatic spells, a strict reading of the Multiclass rules still wouldn't let you cast a wizard spell that's too high a level for a single-class wizard of your level to cast, regardless of whether or not you had a spell slot of the appropriate level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Care to explain why? I see you've made an assertion, what is the rational.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
See, this is a less clear rule.
The way I see it, this has 2 ways to be interpreted:
With that very jank rulling, a wizard 1/sorc 4 could get fireball "prepared".
Personally, I would go with ruling 1 since it makes sense.
To answer the original post of this thread, that is a NO.
To remind those who might have forgot, here is the thread that was on the very subject of current discussion:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/45071-multiclass-caster-and-spell-levels?page=7
Chapter 10: Spellcasting, Subsection: Spell Slots
"Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level."
Chapter 6: Multiclassing, Subsection: Spellcasting ; Subrule: Spells Known and Prepared.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Wizard class spell slot table:
Level
Proficiency
Bonus
Features
Cantrips
Known
— Spell Slots per Spell Level —
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Arcane Recovery
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2nd
+2
Arcane Tradition
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
3rd
+2
—
3
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
4
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
Thus the 4th level wizard has no ability to learn or prepare third level spells.
If you're applying a restriction that the rules don't tell you to apply, you're crossing into homebrew territory with that answer.
Claiming it to be RAI here is tricky because this is supposed to be a magic item that allows you to cast these spells. That is clearly the intent. So arguing it doesn't let you cast them if we add an extra restriction not listed here goes against the spirit of what the item does. If it had any such restriction is would say as much.
Even still, if we apply this item to our multiclass character it is very clear he can prepare them if he has the spell slots to do it, they're in his spellbook.
And Optional Rules. Magic Items, Optional Rules, Feats, yes many things can skirt normal rules.
And, I agree a 4th level wizard cannot normally cast a fireball. He'd need something beyond just that to allow it to happen. Some optional rule or special scenario would be required. Something like a magic item, or an optional rule like Multi-classing, or some other feature, or even some combination thereof. But just a 4th level wizard in a vacuum? No. But could a 4th level wizard with the right combination of special circumstances? Yes.
I fully acknowledge How-To-Play it. But, if we get into the nitty-gritty of what the pages actually say, then yeah, a multiclass wizard can learn, prepare, and cast higher level spells than you'd expect. But the Intent is not to do that. And it isn't at all balanced. No one should ever play like that unless they're already off the deep end into high powered stuff, we're talking nearly gestalt levels overpowered here. Not recommended for actual play.
But purely academic? Yeah, the words say what they say. There is a hole there, in the RAW, for a couple of the classes Spellcasting feature. It isn't even all of the classes, just a few of them, Wizard included. And Wizard compounds it because of how they can add spells known to their list.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Anything that is based on your level is treated as just your wizard level alone. Like how many spells you can prepare.
Okay riddle me this. You started with a 16 Int. And, when you hit 4th level in Cleric you took the ASI and added 2 to your intelligence. You're a Cleric 4 / Wizard 1.
Do you prepare 4 or 5 wizard spells?
I mean, if you're supposed to unwind time and disregard anything and everything other than your one level of wizard, you would have an Int of 16 still. That is the result of your argument. But, I urge you to try it here in DnDBeyond. You'll find your 18 Int Cleric4/Wiz1 can indeed prepare 5 spells. It isn't me who is confused on how this works. If it were, this character would prepare 4.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.