i am having a disagreement at the table regarding the two weapon fighting style for fighter and how the mod is added to the bonus action/second attack
one party is saying that two weapon fighting the fighting style is full negated by extra attack (not what you think)
meaning when the fighter makes their second attack as part of their attack action, the bonus action attack does not get the +MOD to the bonus action attack because two weapon fighting says "second attack" and not "bonus action attack" ergo it would modify the second attack of the turn and do nothing because it already has that mod.
my understanding is it should be like this:
attack+mods attack+mods bonus attack+ability mod
other party argues that because two weapon fighting style for fighter says second attack it would be
attack+mods attack+mods (becase the fighting style says second attack this fulfills the adding mods to the second attack part) bonus attack +nothing
who is right and can you show in the rules where it says so.
Two-Weapon Fighting refers to primary (including extra attack) and off-hand attacks. Two-Weapon Fighting Style is poorly worded. It should have said:
"When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the off-hand attack."
Rules As Intended is pretty obvious here, but if your DM is stubborn they may be hard to convince.
Edit: Basically an inherent class feature should never negate another class feature unless there is an explicit mention that there is a conflict. That would just be abysmal game design.
This is not covered in the Sage Advice Compendium, but I believe the obvious intent was that the "second attack" referred to in the Two-Weapon Fighting style refers to the additional attack gained from fighting with two weapons, since if that were not what it meant, then the feature would be useless past L4, because at L5 martial characters gain Extra Attack, which already adds your ability modifier to the damage, without needing this fighting style.
I believe your DM is incorrect. The wording for this should have been corrected to "the bonus action attack" instead of "the second attack" in the Errata, but it has not.
I never noticed that bad wording in TWF style before.
So looking at the context of the RAW: "When you engage in two-weapon fighting," means it only applies in the context of two weapon fighting; "you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack," would then mean the "second attack" mentioned in the two weapon fighting rules.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon [first attack] that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack [second attack] with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
That would be the RAI interpretation of the RAW. The fighting style should have said "bonus attack" instead of "second attack" to be clearer though...
If the other party says that the fighting style is referring to number of attacks taken per turn, I have good news for you: bonuses stack. Their argument has to be that you deal double ability mod on that attack, since the style says you can add your ability modifier to the damage RAW.
Also also, there isn't a rule that prevents extra attacks from being interrupted by bonus actions, some bonus actions specifically trigger from an attack and interrupt extra attacks by necessity. So you can take the attack action, make 1 attack, take the twf bonus action, then continue the extra attack of the attack action.
The Two-Weapon Fighting style let add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack when you engage in two-weapon fighting, which here refers to bonus action attack done when you take the Attack action and attack first, independant of Extra Attack..
Even if it was technically the case, one could just take the Attack action and attack, attack as a bonus action then attack again using Extra attack and get the modifier on all 3.
meaning when the fighter makes their second attack as part of their attack action, the bonus action attack does not get the +MOD to the bonus action attack because two weapon fighting says "second attack" and not "bonus action attack" ergo it would modify the second attack of the turn and do nothing because it already has that mod.
Yea your friends are wrong. Two-Weapon Fighting includes two attacks, one made with your attack action and another with your bonus action. Any other attacks you can make due to any other rule are not relevant for its function. So the "second attack" the fighting style refers to can only be the bonus action attack.
Also also, there isn't a rule that prevents extra attacks from being interrupted by bonus actions, some bonus actions specifically trigger from an attack and interrupt extra attacks by necessity. So you can take the attack action, make 1 attack, take the twf bonus action, then continue the extra attack of the attack action.
Yep, this is correct. You should even be able to move between the attacks if you like.
If the other party says that the fighting style is referring to number of attacks taken per turn, I have good news for you: bonuses stack. Their argument has to be that you deal double ability mod on that attack, since the style says you can add your ability modifier to the damage RAW.
And this is also correct. So you would still get the additional damage from the TWF fighting style.
Actually thinking about it their way of doing it is even better tbh because if your friends are correct you don't even need to do the TWF attack. You could just pick the TWF fighting style and then make your second attack of the round (with the attack action) and get the +mod damage and then use your bonus action to do whatever you like. (note: this is NOT how it should work, it is just the result of your friends reasoning)
Another thing to consider ... you are allowed to take a bonus action at any time in your turn when you have qualified for it.
After taking the Attack action and making one attack with a light weapon, the character can now make a two weapon fighting attack with the weapon in their other hand if it is also light with a bonus action. They do not need to complete the Attack action before taking the bonus action (the rules specifically allow movement between attacks allowed by the Attack action AND the rules say bonus actions can be taken at ANY time in your turn if your character has one available).
So your friends are apparently saying
Attack action attack #1 + mod to damage
Attack action attack #2 + mod to damage
Attack action bonus action attack + NO mod to damage
BUT this is fine since the bonus action attack is the SECOND attack?
Attack action attack #1 + mod to damage
Attack action bonus action attack + mod to damage
Attack action attack #2 + mod to damage
Also, they appear to be saying that
Before level 5, the character CAN add their modifier to their bonus action two weapon fighting attack but that at level 5 when they gain the extra attack feature they can no longer add their modifier to the bonus action attack IF they use both of their Attack action attacks first.
This is a case where the two weapon fighting style might be poorly worded but the intent is clear. If your friends insist on this interpretation then just take the bonus action attack as the second attack and then the extra attack from the Attack action afterward and point out how little sense that makes.
Not only it's not prevented by the rules, it's also intended per the Dev;
@psychman27 When you take the Attack action, is the trigger for the two-weapon fighting bonus action attack the entire Attack action or a single attack within the attack action? Can that particular bonus action interrupt the Attack action?
@JeremyECrawford Here's the trigger for the two-weapon-fighting bonus action: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand …." (PH, p. 195). Summary: the trigger is the attack that's part of the Attack action, not the entire action.
So I have a question related to this topic, I have a barbarian/fighter multiclass and I have a couple of attacks and I'm trying to figure out how many times I can attack. I am also a Duel wielder.
We don't fully know how bonus actions work but we were saying 1 bonus action per action
Would this theoretically work? And if so could I hypothetically use a bonus action prior to the first attack before starting an attack would that allow me to use two weapon fighting after? I don't fully know how to use bonus actions fully so I'm not sure if I know what I'm doing. Can someone tell me how to properly use this character?
You're misunderstanding what constitutes an "Action". Choosing to make the initial weapon attack is the "Attack Action". The "Extra Attack" feature means that, when you take the Attack Action, you are able to make multiple attack rolls during thatsingle action. During a turn you get a single Bonus Action, and if you have a Light weapon in each hand and take the Attack Action, you then qualify to spend your one Bonus Action for the turn to make a single additional attack roll. Action Surge does not replenish your Bonus Action.
Now, as a TWF Fighter, you are able to take the Attack Action with 1-4 attack rolls depending where you are on the Extra Attack feature, and then in either order use Action Surge to repeat that same number of attack rolls you had from your Attack Action or make a single additional attack roll as a Bonus Action. At level 5, you can have a total of 5 attack rolls in one turn with Action Surge and TWF, at level 11 you can have a total of 7.
Looks to me like the other interpretation with extra attack would be something more like this:
attack+mod
attack+mod+mod
bonus attack+ no mod
i don’t agree with this.
Two weapon fighting is a general rule that adds an additional attack possibility with a bonus action with no modifier in hit for damage. Two weapon fighting style adds the modifier. I don’t think a specific rule like the extra attack feature granting additional attacks with the attack action should make this feature less effective.
how about taking an attack action, attacking once, using your bonus action to attack with the 2nd weapon and getting the modifier, then finishing your attack action?
Honestly, I don't know why people are making this more complicated than it needs to be; the only time you can be engaged in two-weapon fighting is if you're using your bonus action to attack as outlined in the two-weapon fighting rule, so the only point at which the effect could trigger is on the bonus action attack.
Ok....now I have a question about this. I have a Paladin and I chose the Duel Wielder feat at level 4. So I get 2 hits on an attack action (main and off hand bonus)
Two-Weapon Fighting: When you take the Attack Action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
At level 5, I get an extra Attack Action. Does this mean, I get a total of 4 hits (main twice and off hand bonus twice) or a total of 3 hits (main hand, bonus action off hand, and another main hand)?
Ok....now I have a question about this. I have a Paladin and I chose the Duel Wielder feat at level 4. So I get 2 hits on an attack action (main and off hand bonus)
No, that's not how it works. If you use your action to take the Attack action then you can use the Two-Weapon Fighting rule (if you meet the requirements) to use your bonus action to make another attack. Each attack comes from its own action.
At level 5, I get an extra Attack Action. Does this mean, I get a total of 4 hits (main twice and off hand bonus twice) or a total of 3 hits (main hand, bonus action off hand, and another main hand)?
Again, no. Two-weapon fighting is always the same, use your bonus action to make one additional attack (if you meet the requirements). Extra Attack modifies your Attack action to let you make more attacks with that action but nothing more. Regardless if you can make one or four attacks with your Attack action the bonus action from TWF will always be just one more attack.
I want to query this in my curcumstance. Lv5 dragonborn ranger. With twf and horde breaker using either 2 shortswords or a shortsword and a whip.
As I understand it.
Attack action. Horde breaker triggers to use the same weapon on another enemy within 5ft. Twf with the other weapon. Extra attack with the main weapon again. Does twf technically count as an attack action. And qualify for another extra attack. Or is 4 attacks per turn the limit at this point
TWF is a part of the Attack Action, not a separate instance of it. When you take the Attack Action and attack with a Light weapon, you can use your bonus action to make an attack with another Light weapon. You're still only taking the Attack Action once per turn.
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i am having a disagreement at the table regarding the two weapon fighting style for fighter and how the mod is added to the bonus action/second attack
one party is saying that two weapon fighting the fighting style is full negated by extra attack (not what you think)
meaning when the fighter makes their second attack as part of their attack action, the bonus action attack does not get the +MOD to the bonus action attack because two weapon fighting says "second attack" and not "bonus action attack" ergo it would modify the second attack of the turn and do nothing because it already has that mod.
my understanding is it should be like this:
attack+mods
attack+mods
bonus attack+ability mod
other party argues that because two weapon fighting style for fighter says second attack it would be
attack+mods
attack+mods (becase the fighting style says second attack this fulfills the adding mods to the second attack part)
bonus attack +nothing
who is right and can you show in the rules where it says so.
Two-Weapon Fighting refers to primary (including extra attack) and off-hand attacks. Two-Weapon Fighting Style is poorly worded. It should have said:
"When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the off-hand attack."
Rules As Intended is pretty obvious here, but if your DM is stubborn they may be hard to convince.
Edit: Basically an inherent class feature should never negate another class feature unless there is an explicit mention that there is a conflict. That would just be abysmal game design.
This is not covered in the Sage Advice Compendium, but I believe the obvious intent was that the "second attack" referred to in the Two-Weapon Fighting style refers to the additional attack gained from fighting with two weapons, since if that were not what it meant, then the feature would be useless past L4, because at L5 martial characters gain Extra Attack, which already adds your ability modifier to the damage, without needing this fighting style.
I believe your DM is incorrect. The wording for this should have been corrected to "the bonus action attack" instead of "the second attack" in the Errata, but it has not.
I never noticed that bad wording in TWF style before.
So looking at the context of the RAW: "When you engage in two-weapon fighting," means it only applies in the context of two weapon fighting; "you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack," would then mean the "second attack" mentioned in the two weapon fighting rules.
That would be the RAI interpretation of the RAW. The fighting style should have said "bonus attack" instead of "second attack" to be clearer though...
If the other party says that the fighting style is referring to number of attacks taken per turn, I have good news for you: bonuses stack. Their argument has to be that you deal double ability mod on that attack, since the style says you can add your ability modifier to the damage RAW.
Also also, there isn't a rule that prevents extra attacks from being interrupted by bonus actions, some bonus actions specifically trigger from an attack and interrupt extra attacks by necessity. So you can take the attack action, make 1 attack, take the twf bonus action, then continue the extra attack of the attack action.
The Two-Weapon Fighting style let add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack when you engage in two-weapon fighting, which here refers to bonus action attack done when you take the Attack action and attack first, independant of Extra Attack..
Even if it was technically the case, one could just take the Attack action and attack, attack as a bonus action then attack again using Extra attack and get the modifier on all 3.
Yea your friends are wrong. Two-Weapon Fighting includes two attacks, one made with your attack action and another with your bonus action. Any other attacks you can make due to any other rule are not relevant for its function. So the "second attack" the fighting style refers to can only be the bonus action attack.
Yep, this is correct. You should even be able to move between the attacks if you like.
And this is also correct. So you would still get the additional damage from the TWF fighting style.
Actually thinking about it their way of doing it is even better tbh because if your friends are correct you don't even need to do the TWF attack. You could just pick the TWF fighting style and then make your second attack of the round (with the attack action) and get the +mod damage and then use your bonus action to do whatever you like.
(note: this is NOT how it should work, it is just the result of your friends reasoning)
Another thing to consider ... you are allowed to take a bonus action at any time in your turn when you have qualified for it.
After taking the Attack action and making one attack with a light weapon, the character can now make a two weapon fighting attack with the weapon in their other hand if it is also light with a bonus action. They do not need to complete the Attack action before taking the bonus action (the rules specifically allow movement between attacks allowed by the Attack action AND the rules say bonus actions can be taken at ANY time in your turn if your character has one available).
So your friends are apparently saying
BUT this is fine since the bonus action attack is the SECOND attack?
Also, they appear to be saying that
Before level 5, the character CAN add their modifier to their bonus action two weapon fighting attack but that at level 5 when they gain the extra attack feature they can no longer add their modifier to the bonus action attack IF they use both of their Attack action attacks first.
This is a case where the two weapon fighting style might be poorly worded but the intent is clear. If your friends insist on this interpretation then just take the bonus action attack as the second attack and then the extra attack from the Attack action afterward and point out how little sense that makes.
Not only it's not prevented by the rules, it's also intended per the Dev;
So I have a question related to this topic, I have a barbarian/fighter multiclass and I have a couple of attacks and I'm trying to figure out how many times I can attack. I am also a Duel wielder.
We don't fully know how bonus actions work but we were saying 1 bonus action per action
Attack 1, attack 2 (two-weapon fighting), Attack 3 (extra attack), Attack 4 (two-weapon fighting), Attack 5 (action surge), attack 6 (two-weapon fighting)
Would this theoretically work? And if so could I hypothetically use a bonus action prior to the first attack before starting an attack would that allow me to use two weapon fighting after? I don't fully know how to use bonus actions fully so I'm not sure if I know what I'm doing. Can someone tell me how to properly use this character?
You're misunderstanding what constitutes an "Action". Choosing to make the initial weapon attack is the "Attack Action". The "Extra Attack" feature means that, when you take the Attack Action, you are able to make multiple attack rolls during that single action. During a turn you get a single Bonus Action, and if you have a Light weapon in each hand and take the Attack Action, you then qualify to spend your one Bonus Action for the turn to make a single additional attack roll. Action Surge does not replenish your Bonus Action.
Now, as a TWF Fighter, you are able to take the Attack Action with 1-4 attack rolls depending where you are on the Extra Attack feature, and then in either order use Action Surge to repeat that same number of attack rolls you had from your Attack Action or make a single additional attack roll as a Bonus Action. At level 5, you can have a total of 5 attack rolls in one turn with Action Surge and TWF, at level 11 you can have a total of 7.
Looks to me like the other interpretation with extra attack would be something more like this:
attack+mod
attack+mod+mod
bonus attack+ no mod
i don’t agree with this.
Two weapon fighting is a general rule that adds an additional attack possibility with a bonus action with no modifier in hit for damage. Two weapon fighting style adds the modifier. I don’t think a specific rule like the extra attack feature granting additional attacks with the attack action should make this feature less effective.
how about taking an attack action, attacking once, using your bonus action to attack with the 2nd weapon and getting the modifier, then finishing your attack action?
Honestly, I don't know why people are making this more complicated than it needs to be; the only time you can be engaged in two-weapon fighting is if you're using your bonus action to attack as outlined in the two-weapon fighting rule, so the only point at which the effect could trigger is on the bonus action attack.
Ok....now I have a question about this. I have a Paladin and I chose the Duel Wielder feat at level 4. So I get 2 hits on an attack action (main and off hand bonus)
Two-Weapon Fighting: When you take the Attack Action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
At level 5, I get an extra Attack Action. Does this mean, I get a total of 4 hits (main twice and off hand bonus twice) or a total of 3 hits (main hand, bonus action off hand, and another main hand)?
No, that's not how it works. If you use your action to take the Attack action then you can use the Two-Weapon Fighting rule (if you meet the requirements) to use your bonus action to make another attack. Each attack comes from its own action.
Again, no. Two-weapon fighting is always the same, use your bonus action to make one additional attack (if you meet the requirements). Extra Attack modifies your Attack action to let you make more attacks with that action but nothing more. Regardless if you can make one or four attacks with your Attack action the bonus action from TWF will always be just one more attack.
I want to query this in my curcumstance. Lv5 dragonborn ranger. With twf and horde breaker using either 2 shortswords or a shortsword and a whip.
As I understand it.
Attack action. Horde breaker triggers to use the same weapon on another enemy within 5ft. Twf with the other weapon. Extra attack with the main weapon again. Does twf technically count as an attack action. And qualify for another extra attack. Or is 4 attacks per turn the limit at this point
TWF is a part of the Attack Action, not a separate instance of it. When you take the Attack Action and attack with a Light weapon, you can use your bonus action to make an attack with another Light weapon. You're still only taking the Attack Action once per turn.