Question. The unconscious condition says that person is incapacitated and automatically fails strength and dexterity saves, but only those. Paralysis is incapacitating, but those under that condition still are conscious and can see and think regardless of being able to move, so in that case it's understandable. Someone asleep or knocked out by definition is not having conscious thoughts so it seems to me someone essentially mentally helpless would also fail cognitive saves. Someone in that state shouldn't be able to muster a defense. Those are pretty specific conditions that are comparatively rare, so it's not overpowered. A rogue creeping into a bedchamber can do a massive sneak attack on the person sleeping, or an Acid Splash or Disintegrate spell takes full effect on an unconscious foe, but a probing detect thoughts or a modify memory can be resisted by what is essentially an minimally active mind. Moreover, being unconscious or asleep one is unable to make conscious choices so I'd think spells requiring 'willing' targets would work as they are unable to consciously resist.
Of course a DM could rule otherwise in any particular game, and yes I know RAW it's only strength and dex, but it seems like such a common sense thing regarding mentally incapacitated persons, could someone share the reasoning for that?
Unconscious doesn’t mean braindead. Even if you’re unconscious, your brain is extremely active. Intelligence, wisdom, and charisma saving throws don’t involve any conscious thought at all. If your brain is capable of dreaming the way it is when you sleep, it’s absolutely capable of mounting an unconscious mental defense.
I see what you're saying but I never took it to the extreme and say it meant braindead, but an unconscious or sleeping mind is in no way as capable as a waking mind. Someone's body who is paralyzed is still very much alive, but is unable to react to outside stimuli as if it were free to move. By definition conscious and unconscious are two different things. How many of us growing up knew to ask our mom for something she'd normally say no to while she was taking a nap? I think at the very least the saves should be at disadvantage.
I see what you're saying but I never took it to the extreme and say it meant braindead, but an unconscious or sleeping mind is in no way as capable as a waking mind. Someone's body who is paralyzed is still very much alive, but is unable to react to outside stimuli as if it were free to move. By definition conscious and unconscious are two different things. How many of us growing up knew to ask our mom for something she'd normally say no to while she was taking a nap? I think at the very least the saves should be at disadvantage.
Saving throws are unconscious reactions. No save requires conscious thought. You’re simply incorrect about what saving throws are and represent.
The simple answer is that RAW outlines the effects of being unconscious/asleep, and thus anything not specifically addressed happens the same as it does without the condition. Ultimately it’s up to the DM to adjudicate if any additional modifiers are in play, but personally I’d be careful about expanding the effects of a condition that broadly.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save, which means circumstances exist where that's important. Even the PHB says "You don’t normally decide to make a saving throw", which means it's possible conscious effort may be required. I'm not disputing that saving throws generally are automatic and trust me I know exactly what they are and how they work. What I'm saying it seems reasonable that there are certain conditions where automatic defense may not apply. Several things can prevent physically-based saving throws, so it stands to reason it's at the very least possible that could be valid for mental ones as well.
I mean, yes the DM has final fiat on how a roll goes, but I’d expect adding additional auto-fails to be the exception, not the rule. The game and particularly mental saves are balanced around the assumption that a character will usually be making a straight saving throw.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save, which means circumstances exist where that's important. Even the PHB says "You don’t normally decide to make a saving throw", which means it's possible conscious effort may be required. I'm not disputing that saving throws generally are automatic and trust me I know exactly what they are and how they work. What I'm saying it seems reasonable that there are certain conditions where automatic defense may not apply. Several things can prevent physically-based saving throws, so it stands to reason it's at the very least possible that could be valid for mental ones as well.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save. I don't disagree at all that I can imagine a condition that could lead to automatic failure for mental saves. But being unconscious is definitely not one of them. Being braindead would be, which is why I made that my example.
Any spell that says" unwilling creature". Meaning that willing creatures do not need to fail a save but instead elect to let the effect happen. Like the polymorph spell.
Any spell that says" unwilling creature". Meaning that willing creatures do not need to fail a save but instead elect to let the effect happen. Like the polymorph spell.
There are quite a few spells like that.
What do you mean? That’s explicitly not what’s being discussed.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Polymorph
Polymorph does not let you choose to fail the saving throw.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Polymorph
Polymorph does not let you choose to fail the saving throw.
Of course it does. Yes I know it doesn't say that RAW, but it has a saving throw attached to it and by extension if you are willing you are not contesting the the throw. Spell casters polymorph allies all the time. If you're looking for RAW... Bones of the Earth, Calm Emotions, Scry all say that you can willingly fail the save, but in truth you can choose to fail ANY save. There are situations that someone would be willing to have a spell cast upon them, even a combat spell and it wouldn't make sense to force them to save. Regardless, that's not what I was talking about. I"m talking about just as the body can be prevented to save against an effect, I was merely saying it's reasonable that there would be conditions where mental saves could be prevented as well. I was curious to find out why that doesn't seem to be the case... if anyone knew the reasoning of the creators of the rules without blanket 'you don't know what you're talking about' posturing.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Polymorph
Polymorph does not let you choose to fail the saving throw.
Of course it does. Yes I know it doesn't say that RAW, but it has a saving throw attached to it and by extension if you are willing you are not contesting the the throw. Spell casters polymorph allies all the time. If you're looking for RAW... Bones of the Earth, Calm Emotions, Scry all say that you can willingly fail the save, but in truth you can choose to fail ANY save. There are situations that someone would be willing to have a spell cast upon them, even a combat spell and it wouldn't make sense to force them to save. Regardless, that's not what I was talking about. I"m talking about just as the body can be prevented to save against an effect, I was merely saying it's reasonable that there would be conditions where mental saves could be prevented as well. I was curious to find out why that doesn't seem to be the case... if anyone knew the reasoning of the creators of the rules without blanket 'you don't know what you're talking about' posturing.
I think you forgot what forum this thread was posted in. This is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum. DM fiat is out of the picture here.
Quote from a Quote from a quote...goes on forever.
During sleep your brain is still active, focused on repairing itself processing info etc etc.
So depending on the save and why they are making it i'd maybe rule something like a -2 to the save, but only in some circumstances. Though this is completely forgone into the realm of DM calls and house rules.
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"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
RAW perhaps, but it is one in 40 years of playing D&D I've never seen enforced, so in reality it's a non issue. Have you ever been in a game where a player submits to magic or in a sacrificial move lets an attack requiring a save hit without resisting, and the DM forces them to make a save regardless? Regardless, as pointed out this doesn't have anything to do with my original question.
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Question. The unconscious condition says that person is incapacitated and automatically fails strength and dexterity saves, but only those. Paralysis is incapacitating, but those under that condition still are conscious and can see and think regardless of being able to move, so in that case it's understandable. Someone asleep or knocked out by definition is not having conscious thoughts so it seems to me someone essentially mentally helpless would also fail cognitive saves. Someone in that state shouldn't be able to muster a defense. Those are pretty specific conditions that are comparatively rare, so it's not overpowered. A rogue creeping into a bedchamber can do a massive sneak attack on the person sleeping, or an Acid Splash or Disintegrate spell takes full effect on an unconscious foe, but a probing detect thoughts or a modify memory can be resisted by what is essentially an minimally active mind. Moreover, being unconscious or asleep one is unable to make conscious choices so I'd think spells requiring 'willing' targets would work as they are unable to consciously resist.
Of course a DM could rule otherwise in any particular game, and yes I know RAW it's only strength and dex, but it seems like such a common sense thing regarding mentally incapacitated persons, could someone share the reasoning for that?
Unconscious doesn’t mean braindead. Even if you’re unconscious, your brain is extremely active. Intelligence, wisdom, and charisma saving throws don’t involve any conscious thought at all. If your brain is capable of dreaming the way it is when you sleep, it’s absolutely capable of mounting an unconscious mental defense.
I see what you're saying but I never took it to the extreme and say it meant braindead, but an unconscious or sleeping mind is in no way as capable as a waking mind. Someone's body who is paralyzed is still very much alive, but is unable to react to outside stimuli as if it were free to move. By definition conscious and unconscious are two different things. How many of us growing up knew to ask our mom for something she'd normally say no to while she was taking a nap? I think at the very least the saves should be at disadvantage.
Saving throws are unconscious reactions. No save requires conscious thought. You’re simply incorrect about what saving throws are and represent.
The simple answer is that RAW outlines the effects of being unconscious/asleep, and thus anything not specifically addressed happens the same as it does without the condition. Ultimately it’s up to the DM to adjudicate if any additional modifiers are in play, but personally I’d be careful about expanding the effects of a condition that broadly.
Then again, you can consciously choose to fail a save, which means circumstances exist where that's important. Even the PHB says "You don’t normally decide to make a saving throw", which means it's possible conscious effort may be required. I'm not disputing that saving throws generally are automatic and trust me I know exactly what they are and how they work. What I'm saying it seems reasonable that there are certain conditions where automatic defense may not apply. Several things can prevent physically-based saving throws, so it stands to reason it's at the very least possible that could be valid for mental ones as well.
I mean, yes the DM has final fiat on how a roll goes, but I’d expect adding additional auto-fails to be the exception, not the rule. The game and particularly mental saves are balanced around the assumption that a character will usually be making a straight saving throw.
Only certain spells allow you to consciously fail the saving throw.
You can almost never consciously choose to fail a save. Vortex warp is the only example I can think of off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are a couple others. But in general, you cannot consciously choose to fail a save. I don't disagree at all that I can imagine a condition that could lead to automatic failure for mental saves. But being unconscious is definitely not one of them. Being braindead would be, which is why I made that my example.
Any spell that says" unwilling creature". Meaning that willing creatures do not need to fail a save but instead elect to let the effect happen. Like the polymorph spell.
There are quite a few spells like that.
What do you mean? That’s explicitly not what’s being discussed.
There are quite a few spells where you can choose to fail a save.
I said “I’m sure there are a couple others.” If you think there are “quite a few,” you should provide quite a few examples.
Polymorph
Polymorph does not let you choose to fail the saving throw.
Of course it does. Yes I know it doesn't say that RAW, but it has a saving throw attached to it and by extension if you are willing you are not contesting the the throw. Spell casters polymorph allies all the time. If you're looking for RAW... Bones of the Earth, Calm Emotions, Scry all say that you can willingly fail the save, but in truth you can choose to fail ANY save. There are situations that someone would be willing to have a spell cast upon them, even a combat spell and it wouldn't make sense to force them to save. Regardless, that's not what I was talking about. I"m talking about just as the body can be prevented to save against an effect, I was merely saying it's reasonable that there would be conditions where mental saves could be prevented as well. I was curious to find out why that doesn't seem to be the case... if anyone knew the reasoning of the creators of the rules without blanket 'you don't know what you're talking about' posturing.
I think you forgot what forum this thread was posted in. This is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum. DM fiat is out of the picture here.
[REDACTED]
Quote from a Quote from a quote...goes on forever.
During sleep your brain is still active, focused on repairing itself processing info etc etc.
So depending on the save and why they are making it i'd maybe rule something like a -2 to the save, but only in some circumstances. Though this is completely forgone into the realm of DM calls and house rules.
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
No you can't - there is no published general rule that says that this is the case.
You can only choose to fail the save if the spell description in some way tells that it is an option for that particular spell.
RAW perhaps, but it is one in 40 years of playing D&D I've never seen enforced, so in reality it's a non issue. Have you ever been in a game where a player submits to magic or in a sacrificial move lets an attack requiring a save hit without resisting, and the DM forces them to make a save regardless? Regardless, as pointed out this doesn't have anything to do with my original question.