Start Round holding Shield, and loaded hand cross bow, with a second loaded hand cross bow in belt/something
On Turn
Action: Shoot
drop hand cross bow
Draw 2nd-hand cross bow as free action
Bonus Action (CE) : Shoot
Drop 2nd-Hand Cross bow (so I can at least punch if AoO comes up)
On round 2, I can draw a short sword and engage in melee.
I think this is all fine, and works out well until Lvl 5 when extra attack and better armor will make it reasonable to just use a heavy cross bow all the time. But the one line in CE gives me pause "a hand cross bow that you are holding" do you have to be holding the hand cross bow you will use in your bonus action when you make the attack with the Action (i.e. you can only make this work while dual wielding weapons).
If you do, it isn't the end of the world. I would just start dual wielding hand CBs (with no shield) and drop them for a Heavy CB. still get "two" attacks on the first round but kind of like having the extra AC in early levels of a shield.
If your DM allows you to walk around with a loaded crossbow (which is not explicitly allowed in the rules) then you could be holding the shield and fire off the one shot.
The second shot will not work. The third bullet of Crossbow Expert:
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
Therefore you will not be allowed to make the second attack, since you are trying to use a crossbow that you were not holding to make that second attack. You also cannot reload the original crossbow, since it is out of ammunition now and you do not have a free hand to put the ammunition in it.
You do not need to dual wield hand crossbows. Simply have one hand crossbow and the other hand free. Now you get both attacks with Crossbow Expert.
Yeah, never thought about whether or not you can walk around with the CB loaded. Every time i've ever seen any combat happen with cross bolts its always assumed they are loaded for the first round. I guess in RL that's a safety issue.
Yeah, I know I can't reload the first one with a non-free hand. But I did miss that I can just reload the hand cross bow so no need to dual wield.
Disappointing the opener idea won't work, but I can just stop trying to be cleaver and go with the hand cross bow.
You still need a feee hand (without a shield) to reload your weapon. CBE simply alleviates that to be done as an action, but this still needs to occur, hence invalidating the possibility to pair crossbows with shield.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yeah, never thought about whether or not you can walk around with the CB loaded. Every time i've ever seen any combat happen with cross bolts its always assumed they are loaded for the first round. I guess in RL that's a safety issue.
Yeah, I know I can't reload the first one with a non-free hand. But I did miss that I can just reload the hand cross bow so no need to dual wield.
Disappointing the opener idea won't work, but I can just stop trying to be cleaver and go with the hand cross bow.
Thanks.
An artificer using the repeating shot infusion can get around this issue. They can wear a shield and hold a hand crossbow in the other hand. When they fire the CB in the Attack action, they are able to fire it again as a bonus action because they are already holding it and because it loads itself with ammunition so a free hand isn't required.
An artificer using the repeating shot infusion can get around this issue. They can wear a shield and hold a hand crossbow in the other hand. When they fire the CB in the Attack action, they are able to fire it again as a bonus action because they are already holding it and because it loads itself with ammunition so a free hand isn't required.
True, and a 2 level dip into artificer is tempting when char building, but this camp will start at level 1 so I'll prob not want to delay hitting lvl 5 extra attack. But good idea.
You still need a feee hand (without a shield) to reload your weapon. CBE simply alleviates that to be done as an action, but this still needs to occur, hence invalidating the possibility to pair crossbows with shield.
Yes well aware, thus why it was an attempt at an opener and involved dropping the spent cross bow as there was no way to reload them with a shield. More than happy to engage in melee for the follow up rounds in the early levels.
You know you don't have to drop your second crossbow right? An unarmed strike is usually a punch, yes, but it can also be a forcful blow, so just pistol whip them. And even if that doesn't fly, wether its ruling or DM fiat, you can just improvise weapon the fool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
If your DM allows you to walk around with a loaded crossbow (which is not explicitly allowed in the rules) then you could be holding the shield and fire off the one shot.
The rules don't take a position on loading the hand crossbow outside of the attack action, as far as I know, because pre-loading would only ever be relevant for the first shot anyway and every subsequent shot would follow the general rule for loading the weapon. If a player wanted to take the [Tooltip Not Found] action to load a crossbow, that should not run afoul of the rules, as near as I can tell. We know a crossbow must be loaded with ammunition to make a non-improvised attack with it (duh) and we know that loading it requires a free hand regardless of when it happens. While you are assumed to be drawing ammunition as part of the attack, it wouldn't be necessary in the case that the crossbow is already loaded. The ammunition property tells us that the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn. For what it's worth, RAI suggests you can also take the [Tooltip Not Found] action to load a crossbow, but this would only be useful outside of combat since you can also load it using the attack action. The practicalities of walking around with a loaded crossbow are not something I believe the rules touch on at all, so the DM can apply real-world logic to this, or not.
On the other hand, if you want to cut to the chase and say "the ammunition property says you load it when you fire it, so that's how we're playing it" then I also can't say that is incorrect per RAW.
Regardless of all of this, you correctly point out what I think is the most important detail. Even if it all works out, you're soon left with an empty crossbow in one hand and a shield in the other, and no free hand with which to (re)load the crossbow.
"When you pull back the string" ... sounds like you'd still need a free hand.
No.
Drawing the ammo is what requires a free hand. See:
"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
But you never draw or load ammo. So can use the dragon wing hand crossbow with just one hand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm ambivalent on this one. On the one hand, it looks like the dragon wing bow's description was written to specifically get around the ammunition property of whatever bow this magic item template is applied to. And with that in mind, it seems like a dragon wing hand crossbow should be something that can be operated entirely with one hand. By the way, a lot of the stuff in the item's description is added by D&D Beyond, so if you want to nitpick the most accurate representation of the book, go look at the item description in the Fizban source material.
On the other hand (pun intended), the description talks about pulling back the string, which makes me think you'd need a free hand for that. I will say, as Ravnodaus points out, that "pulling back the string" outside the context of the ammunition property is not something that is defined in-game as requiring a free hand, even though I struggle to imagine how that would work otherwise. So if we accept* that the dragon wing hand crossbow automatically satisfies the ammunition property of the hand crossbow by itself, we're left with no RAW requirement for a second hand. The description also never says that the magically produced ammunition is created into the firing mechanism of the bow, but come on :)
* - this argument makes an assumption that you may not agree with.
An artificer using repeating shot can get around this issue specifically because the infusion causes the weapon to produce its own ammunition.
That is exactly what the dragon wing bows do on their own: Magically create their own ammunition.
This is the same situation for both. And we know Crawford is on record stating that if it creates its own ammo it doesn't need a freehand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An artificer using repeating shot can get around this issue specifically because the infusion causes the weapon to produce its own ammunition.
That is exactly what the dragon wing bows do on their own: Magically create their own ammunition.
This is the same situation for both. And we know Crawford is on record stating that if it creates its own ammo it doesn't need a freehand.
Unfortunately, RAW, the wording for the Repeating Shot infusion and the Dragon Wing bow are NOT the same. I've cited both below. The key lines are:
RS: creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it
DWB: automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string
The repeating shot infusion creates the ammo when you make a ranged attack with it. It says nothing about loading the ammunition and nothing that might imply that a free hand is needed. However, the dragon wing bow specifically states that it only creates the magical ammunition when "you pull back the string", not when you make an attack with it. Pulling back the string is a stated requirement to create the magic ammunition. Unless you can use the same hand that is holding the bow to also simultaneously pull back the string (which is not likely), the DWB will require a free hand to pull back the string to create the magical ammunition. It has nothing to do with the loading or ammunition properties of the weapon itself, it has to do with the explicit text of the magic item defining what must be done to create the magical ammunition - which in this case is pulling back the string.
A DM is free to run the DWB the same as the infusion (ammunition created when you make a ranged attack) and that may be the RAI (rules as intended) but it isn't the Rules as written (RAW).
Repeating Shot:
"This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it. If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
Dragon Wing bow:
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string. The ammunition created by the bow vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
An artificer using repeating shot can get around this issue specifically because the infusion causes the weapon to produce its own ammunition.
That is exactly what the dragon wing bows do on their own: Magically create their own ammunition.
This is the same situation for both. And we know Crawford is on record stating that if it creates its own ammo it doesn't need a freehand.
Unfortunately, RAW, the wording for the Repeating Shot infusion and the Dragon Wing bow are NOT the same. I've cited both below. The key lines are:
RS: creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it
DWB: automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string
The repeating shot infusion creates the ammo when you make a ranged attack with it. It says nothing about loading the ammunition and nothing that might imply that a free hand is needed. However, the dragon wing bow specifically states that it only creates the magical ammunition when "you pull back the string", not when you make an attack with it. Pulling back the string is a stated requirement to create the magic ammunition. Unless you can use the same hand that is holding the bow to also simultaneously pull back the string (which is not likely), the DWB will require a free hand to pull back the string to create the magical ammunition. It has nothing to do with the loading or ammunition properties of the weapon itself, it has to do with the explicit text of the magic item defining what must be done to create the magical ammunition - which in this case is pulling back the string.
A DM is free to run the DWB the same as the infusion (ammunition created when you make a ranged attack) and that may be the RAI (rules as intended) but it isn't the Rules as written (RAW).
Repeating Shot:
"This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it. If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
Dragon Wing bow:
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string. The ammunition created by the bow vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
There is no stated requirement to have a free hand for pulling back a string. You're free to invent suvh a requirement for your games, but that would be a homebrew solution.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There is no stated requirement to have a free hand for pulling back a string.
Out of curiosity, how do you pull back the string without a free hand? Maybe your teeth? Or the corner of the shield you are holding in your other hand? I get that your position in this discussion is more of an academic reading of "the rule doesn't say this, so it's not this," but at some point, the crossbow string still needs to be pulled back. I'm just wondering how you do it.
"When you pull back the string" ... sounds like you'd still need a free hand.
No.
Drawing the ammo is what requires a free hand. See:
"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
But you never draw or load ammo. So can use the dragon wing hand crossbow with just one hand.
The description of the magic weapon does not say that it loses either of the "ammunition" or "loading" properties.
The Artificer Repeating Shot infusion doesn't say it removes the ammunition property either. But they both explicitly say they create ammo when it isn't provided. And Crawford is very much on record saying this is intentional for it to not require a free hand.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Human Variant: Lvl 1 Fighter : Archer
Given Feat: Crossbow Expert
Start Round holding Shield, and loaded hand cross bow, with a second loaded hand cross bow in belt/something
On Turn
On round 2, I can draw a short sword and engage in melee.
I think this is all fine, and works out well until Lvl 5 when extra attack and better armor will make it reasonable to just use a heavy cross bow all the time. But the one line in CE gives me pause "a hand cross bow that you are holding" do you have to be holding the hand cross bow you will use in your bonus action when you make the attack with the Action (i.e. you can only make this work while dual wielding weapons).
If you do, it isn't the end of the world. I would just start dual wielding hand CBs (with no shield) and drop them for a Heavy CB. still get "two" attacks on the first round but kind of like having the extra AC in early levels of a shield.
Thoughts?
If your DM allows you to walk around with a loaded crossbow (which is not explicitly allowed in the rules) then you could be holding the shield and fire off the one shot.
The second shot will not work. The third bullet of Crossbow Expert:
Therefore you will not be allowed to make the second attack, since you are trying to use a crossbow that you were not holding to make that second attack. You also cannot reload the original crossbow, since it is out of ammunition now and you do not have a free hand to put the ammunition in it.
You do not need to dual wield hand crossbows. Simply have one hand crossbow and the other hand free. Now you get both attacks with Crossbow Expert.
Yeah, never thought about whether or not you can walk around with the CB loaded. Every time i've ever seen any combat happen with cross bolts its always assumed they are loaded for the first round. I guess in RL that's a safety issue.
Yeah, I know I can't reload the first one with a non-free hand. But I did miss that I can just reload the hand cross bow so no need to dual wield.
Disappointing the opener idea won't work, but I can just stop trying to be cleaver and go with the hand cross bow.
Thanks.
You still need a feee hand (without a shield) to reload your weapon. CBE simply alleviates that to be done as an action, but this still needs to occur, hence invalidating the possibility to pair crossbows with shield.
Get a dragon wing hand crossbow.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An artificer using the repeating shot infusion can get around this issue. They can wear a shield and hold a hand crossbow in the other hand. When they fire the CB in the Attack action, they are able to fire it again as a bonus action because they are already holding it and because it loads itself with ammunition so a free hand isn't required.
"When you pull back the string" ... sounds like you'd still need a free hand.
True, and a 2 level dip into artificer is tempting when char building, but this camp will start at level 1 so I'll prob not want to delay hitting lvl 5 extra attack. But good idea.
Yes well aware, thus why it was an attempt at an opener and involved dropping the spent cross bow as there was no way to reload them with a shield. More than happy to engage in melee for the follow up rounds in the early levels.
You know you don't have to drop your second crossbow right? An unarmed strike is usually a punch, yes, but it can also be a forcful blow, so just pistol whip them. And even if that doesn't fly, wether its ruling or DM fiat, you can just improvise weapon the fool.
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
The rules don't take a position on loading the hand crossbow outside of the attack action, as far as I know, because pre-loading would only ever be relevant for the first shot anyway and every subsequent shot would follow the general rule for loading the weapon. If a player wanted to take the [Tooltip Not Found] action to load a crossbow, that should not run afoul of the rules, as near as I can tell. We know a crossbow must be loaded with ammunition to make a non-improvised attack with it (duh) and we know that loading it requires a free hand regardless of when it happens. While you are assumed to be drawing ammunition as part of the attack, it wouldn't be necessary in the case that the crossbow is already loaded. The ammunition property tells us that the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn. For what it's worth, RAI suggests you can also take the [Tooltip Not Found] action to load a crossbow, but this would only be useful outside of combat since you can also load it using the attack action. The practicalities of walking around with a loaded crossbow are not something I believe the rules touch on at all, so the DM can apply real-world logic to this, or not.
On the other hand, if you want to cut to the chase and say "the ammunition property says you load it when you fire it, so that's how we're playing it" then I also can't say that is incorrect per RAW.
Regardless of all of this, you correctly point out what I think is the most important detail. Even if it all works out, you're soon left with an empty crossbow in one hand and a shield in the other, and no free hand with which to (re)load the crossbow.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No.
Drawing the ammo is what requires a free hand. See:
"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
But you never draw or load ammo. So can use the dragon wing hand crossbow with just one hand.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm ambivalent on this one. On the one hand, it looks like the dragon wing bow's description was written to specifically get around the ammunition property of whatever bow this magic item template is applied to. And with that in mind, it seems like a dragon wing hand crossbow should be something that can be operated entirely with one hand. By the way, a lot of the stuff in the item's description is added by D&D Beyond, so if you want to nitpick the most accurate representation of the book, go look at the item description in the Fizban source material.
On the other hand (pun intended), the description talks about pulling back the string, which makes me think you'd need a free hand for that. I will say, as Ravnodaus points out, that "pulling back the string" outside the context of the ammunition property is not something that is defined in-game as requiring a free hand, even though I struggle to imagine how that would work otherwise. So if we accept* that the dragon wing hand crossbow automatically satisfies the ammunition property of the hand crossbow by itself, we're left with no RAW requirement for a second hand. The description also never says that the magically produced ammunition is created into the firing mechanism of the bow, but come on :)
* - this argument makes an assumption that you may not agree with.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
An artificer using repeating shot can get around this issue specifically because the infusion causes the weapon to produce its own ammunition.
That is exactly what the dragon wing bows do on their own: Magically create their own ammunition.
This is the same situation for both. And we know Crawford is on record stating that if it creates its own ammo it doesn't need a freehand.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unfortunately, RAW, the wording for the Repeating Shot infusion and the Dragon Wing bow are NOT the same. I've cited both below. The key lines are:
RS: creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it
DWB: automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string
The repeating shot infusion creates the ammo when you make a ranged attack with it. It says nothing about loading the ammunition and nothing that might imply that a free hand is needed. However, the dragon wing bow specifically states that it only creates the magical ammunition when "you pull back the string", not when you make an attack with it. Pulling back the string is a stated requirement to create the magic ammunition. Unless you can use the same hand that is holding the bow to also simultaneously pull back the string (which is not likely), the DWB will require a free hand to pull back the string to create the magical ammunition. It has nothing to do with the loading or ammunition properties of the weapon itself, it has to do with the explicit text of the magic item defining what must be done to create the magical ammunition - which in this case is pulling back the string.
A DM is free to run the DWB the same as the infusion (ammunition created when you make a ranged attack) and that may be the RAI (rules as intended) but it isn't the Rules as written (RAW).
Repeating Shot:
"This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it. If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
Dragon Wing bow:
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you pull back the string. The ammunition created by the bow vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target."
There is no stated requirement to have a free hand for pulling back a string. You're free to invent suvh a requirement for your games, but that would be a homebrew solution.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Out of curiosity, how do you pull back the string without a free hand? Maybe your teeth? Or the corner of the shield you are holding in your other hand? I get that your position in this discussion is more of an academic reading of "the rule doesn't say this, so it's not this," but at some point, the crossbow string still needs to be pulled back. I'm just wondering how you do it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The description of the magic weapon does not say that it loses either of the "ammunition" or "loading" properties.
The Artificer Repeating Shot infusion doesn't say it removes the ammunition property either. But they both explicitly say they create ammo when it isn't provided. And Crawford is very much on record saying this is intentional for it to not require a free hand.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.