Umm, what’s “improved invisibility”? I don’t recognize the term. Multiple casts of Invisibility aren’t nothing, but it’s not great action economy. And regardless, it’s still a fairly limited defense in combat; your position is still known and one good AoE spell or ranged attack that beats disadvantage (hardly impossible) can end the effect right there if they blow the concentration check. Wouldn’t hurt to make SI touch, though.
Greater Invisibility. You knew what i was talking about since you just referenced it in your previous comment.
Position is known after the attack is made. Then, on the next round they use their flight speed to go behind column/tree, reinitiate Invisibility. Then attack from a completely different angle the following round. Since there is no friction of moving against the earth, how do you know where they're attacking from the next time? Again, the problem is compounded when the PC or NPC can use Sharpshooter.
BTW, I left off Imps and Sprites since they're so flimsy. However, as PoChain familiars with the Stealth skill, they can be used to poison drinks, sabotage crucial machinery, etc. Another good reason why SeeInvisibility should be castable on another person, preferably the one who has the best Passive Perception.
Position is known after the attack is made. Then, on the next round they use their flight speed to go behind column/tree, reinitiate Invisibility. Then attack from a completely different angle the following round. Since there is no friction of moving against the earth, how do you know where they're attacking from the next time?
You know because they didn't hide. Once position is known, it remains known unless the creature takes an action that causes it to become unknown.
I asked what you were referring to because I specifically discussed Greater Invisibility already and none of my points were addressed, so I thought it was a different point. With Greater you just mob the caster; most of a caster’s best spells don’t use attack rolls, so they’re probably going to cast the spell on someone else, making it easy to end the spell at the source. It’s more potent, sure, but can’t scale up to multiple targets and is best cast on someone else, so it’s still rather fragile.
Oh you know, not enough credit goes to fog cloud as an anti-invisibility tool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The key effect of fog cloud is that it makes everyone invisible, which means the invisible character has no advantages over anyone else. It's inconvenient for spells and abilities (such as opportunity attacks) that only apply to targets you can see, however.
The key effect of fog cloud is that it makes everyone invisible, which means the invisible character has no advantages over anyone else. It's inconvenient for spells and abilities (such as opportunity attacks) that only apply to targets you can see, however.
Notably, it doesn't make everyone invisible, but it does make everyone, uh, un-visible. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what difference this could possibly make, but it is technically different. ;P
Being in a fog cloud doesn't make you invisible or able to see the void while in it because the area is heavily obscured and blocks vision entirely making creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
Ravndous mentioned a point I was going to mention myself.
So ... next question :) ... how do folks handle the on-going effect of invisibility.
The spell states:
"A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target's person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
The spell requires concentration to maintain. In this case, that would keep the items that become invisible when the spell is cast, invisible - it wouldn't necessarily make new items invisible though several folks have made comments that indicate they run it that way.
I think interpreting the spell comes down to how people interpret the second sentence. Is the second sentence a detailed description that allows the creatures clothes and equipment to also become invisible when the spell is cast? Without the clarification, only the creature would become invisible by touch. Or is the second sentence completely separate and used to indicate that anything the invisible creature wears or carries for the duration of the spell also becomes invisible?
Personally, I interpret it the first way. The spell is cast, invisibility is applied to the creature and anything that they are wearing or carrying, as long as concentration is maintained they remain invisible but items the character picks up do not become invisible.
This directly affects the flour question :) ... and a lot of the other rulings about how invisibility would interact with other effects. So, I was just wondering how other folks run it.
Being in a fog cloud doesn't make you invisible or able to see the void while in it because the area is heavily obscured and blocks vision entirely making creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
Correct. However, Fog Cloud serves to block all instances of advantage and disadvantage since no one can see each other in the fog cloud.
All attack rolls are straight rolls with neither advantage nor disadvantage.
Everyone has equal opportunities to hide.
It negates the primary benefit that the invisible creature has.
The fog cloud also blocks spells that require that you see your target as well as opportunity attacks. Depending on which side has the most spellcasters and the spells they are using these effects could also be very beneficial to the party. Fog Cloud is one of the most useful utility spells out there for these reasons so if I have a character that can take it, they do. :)
Ravndous mentioned a point I was going to mention myself.
So ... next question :) ... how do folks handle the on-going effect of invisibility.
The spell states:
"A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target's person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
The spell requires concentration to maintain. In this case, that would keep the items that become invisible when the spell is cast, invisible - it wouldn't necessarily make new items invisible though several folks have made comments that indicate they run it that way.
I think interpreting the spell comes down to how people interpret the second sentence. Is the second sentence a detailed description that allows the creatures clothes and equipment to also become invisible when the spell is cast? Without the clarification, only the creature would become invisible by touch. Or is the second sentence completely separate and used to indicate that anything the invisible creature wears or carries for the duration of the spell also becomes invisible?
I think #2 while not official ruling, the interpretation of the lead developper on twitter about this subject is this;
@JeremyECrawford The D&D Invisibility spell turns you invisible, along with anything you're wearing/carrying. If the spell is cast on you while you're carrying an Eldritch Cannon, the cannon is invisible while it's on your person, as your invisibility cloaks it.
Ravndous mentioned a point I was going to mention myself.
So ... next question :) ... how do folks handle the on-going effect of invisibility.
The spell states:
"A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target's person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
The spell requires concentration to maintain. In this case, that would keep the items that become invisible when the spell is cast, invisible - it wouldn't necessarily make new items invisible though several folks have made comments that indicate they run it that way.
I think interpreting the spell comes down to how people interpret the second sentence. Is the second sentence a detailed description that allows the creatures clothes and equipment to also become invisible when the spell is cast? Without the clarification, only the creature would become invisible by touch. Or is the second sentence completely separate and used to indicate that anything the invisible creature wears or carries for the duration of the spell also becomes invisible?
I think #2 while not official ruling, the interpretation of the lead developper on twitter about this subject is this;
@JeremyECrawford The D&D Invisibility spell turns you invisible, along with anything you're wearing/carrying. If the spell is cast on you while you're carrying an Eldritch Cannon, the cannon is invisible while it's on your person, as your invisibility cloaks it.
Sure, but if you pick up the eldritch cannon after the invisibility spell is cast .. the cannon is not invisible. Or is it? There is no ambiguity that anything you are holding or carrying when the spell is cast becomes invisible. The question I have is about things you pick up later.
That particular dev tweet doesn't get at the question "Do items that you pick up AFTER the invisibility spell has been cast remain visible or become invisible?"
Sure, but if you pick up the eldritch cannon after the invisibility spell is cast .. the cannon is not invisible. Or is it? There is no ambiguity that anything you are holding or carrying when the spell is cast becomes invisible. The question I have is about things you pick up later.
That particular dev tweet doesn't get at the question "Do items that you pick up AFTER the invisibility spell has been cast remain visible or become invisible?"
You're right, i looked for another and the dev answered this one more precisely on twitter here;
@sixhitpoints If an invisible creature picks up an object, does the object become invisible, or only items carried at the time of casting
@JeremyECrawford Only items worn/carried when invisibility is cast are invisible, but I'd let you conceal something under them.
Sure, but if you pick up the eldritch cannon after the invisibility spell is cast .. the cannon is not invisible. Or is it? There is no ambiguity that anything you are holding or carrying when the spell is cast becomes invisible. The question I have is about things you pick up later.
That particular dev tweet doesn't get at the question "Do items that you pick up AFTER the invisibility spell has been cast remain visible or become invisible?"
You're right, i looked for another and the dev answered this one more precisely on twitter here;
@sixhitpoints If an invisible creature picks up an object, does the object become invisible, or only items carried at the time of casting
@JeremyECrawford Only items worn/carried when invisibility is cast are invisible, but I'd let you conceal something under them.
Thanks for the quote. So, JC interprets the spell as only items worn or carried when it is cast become invisible. However, the second half of his comment is mostly how he would run it as a DM since none of the rules actually suggest that you could hide something that is visible behind an invisible object since it honestly doesn't make sense (though I can understand the "coolness" factor that might lead a DM to say that a visible item placed in your invisible pocket becomes invisible).
Why doesn't it make sense?
Consider the following - an invisible pocket is just a folded piece of invisible fabric. Let's say I, as a DM rules that a visible object placed into an invisible pocket becomes invisible. Lets take that pocket out and hold it in my hand since it is just folded invisible fabric. Now I unfold the fabric so that the invisible fabric now blocks one side of the visible object. Can the visible object be seen from one side and not the other? That would seem to make sense if an invisible object can be used to hide a visible one. Now lets move the visible object 5' behind the invisible fabric. If I am still looking through the invisible fabric is the visible item invisible when viewed through the fabric? Does that mean a wall or door that is 5' behind an invisible person would also be invisible/not seen through the invisible person? At this point, you run into why it doesn't make sense. If a visible object can be placed behind and invisible object to hide it and make it also invisible then the invisible person should block sight of anything on the other side of them since it would become invisible. So, when I am running it, only items worn or carried when the spell is cast can become invisible AND any visible item carried by the invisible creature remains visible, even if they put it in a pocket or otherwise try to conceal it since the point of invisibility is that it is completely see through.
If all else fails, just use a lantern of revealing.
Greater Invisibility. You knew what i was talking about since you just referenced it in your previous comment.
Position is known after the attack is made. Then, on the next round they use their flight speed to go behind column/tree, reinitiate Invisibility. Then attack from a completely different angle the following round. Since there is no friction of moving against the earth, how do you know where they're attacking from the next time? Again, the problem is compounded when the PC or NPC can use Sharpshooter.
BTW, I left off Imps and Sprites since they're so flimsy. However, as PoChain familiars with the Stealth skill, they can be used to poison drinks, sabotage crucial machinery, etc. Another good reason why See Invisibility should be castable on another person, preferably the one who has the best Passive Perception.
You know because they didn't hide. Once position is known, it remains known unless the creature takes an action that causes it to become unknown.
I asked what you were referring to because I specifically discussed Greater Invisibility already and none of my points were addressed, so I thought it was a different point. With Greater you just mob the caster; most of a caster’s best spells don’t use attack rolls, so they’re probably going to cast the spell on someone else, making it easy to end the spell at the source. It’s more potent, sure, but can’t scale up to multiple targets and is best cast on someone else, so it’s still rather fragile.
Oh you know, not enough credit goes to fog cloud as an anti-invisibility tool.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't so much solve the problem, as it makes the problem everyone's problem. But sure -- it'll do in a pinch.
You'd see the void in the fog.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Except the fog obscures your own vision
The key effect of fog cloud is that it makes everyone invisible, which means the invisible character has no advantages over anyone else. It's inconvenient for spells and abilities (such as opportunity attacks) that only apply to targets you can see, however.
Notably, it doesn't make everyone invisible, but it does make everyone, uh, un-visible. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what difference this could possibly make, but it is technically different. ;P
Ravndous mentioned a point I was going to mention myself.
So ... next question :) ... how do folks handle the on-going effect of invisibility.
The spell states:
"A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target's person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
The spell requires concentration to maintain. In this case, that would keep the items that become invisible when the spell is cast, invisible - it wouldn't necessarily make new items invisible though several folks have made comments that indicate they run it that way.
I think interpreting the spell comes down to how people interpret the second sentence. Is the second sentence a detailed description that allows the creatures clothes and equipment to also become invisible when the spell is cast? Without the clarification, only the creature would become invisible by touch. Or is the second sentence completely separate and used to indicate that anything the invisible creature wears or carries for the duration of the spell also becomes invisible?
Personally, I interpret it the first way. The spell is cast, invisibility is applied to the creature and anything that they are wearing or carrying, as long as concentration is maintained they remain invisible but items the character picks up do not become invisible.
This directly affects the flour question :) ... and a lot of the other rulings about how invisibility would interact with other effects. So, I was just wondering how other folks run it.
Correct. However, Fog Cloud serves to block all instances of advantage and disadvantage since no one can see each other in the fog cloud.
All attack rolls are straight rolls with neither advantage nor disadvantage.
Everyone has equal opportunities to hide.
It negates the primary benefit that the invisible creature has.
The fog cloud also blocks spells that require that you see your target as well as opportunity attacks. Depending on which side has the most spellcasters and the spells they are using these effects could also be very beneficial to the party. Fog Cloud is one of the most useful utility spells out there for these reasons so if I have a character that can take it, they do. :)
I think #2 while not official ruling, the interpretation of the lead developper on twitter about this subject is this;
Sure, but if you pick up the eldritch cannon after the invisibility spell is cast .. the cannon is not invisible. Or is it? There is no ambiguity that anything you are holding or carrying when the spell is cast becomes invisible. The question I have is about things you pick up later.
That particular dev tweet doesn't get at the question "Do items that you pick up AFTER the invisibility spell has been cast remain visible or become invisible?"
You're right, i looked for another and the dev answered this one more precisely on twitter here;
Thanks for the quote. So, JC interprets the spell as only items worn or carried when it is cast become invisible. However, the second half of his comment is mostly how he would run it as a DM since none of the rules actually suggest that you could hide something that is visible behind an invisible object since it honestly doesn't make sense (though I can understand the "coolness" factor that might lead a DM to say that a visible item placed in your invisible pocket becomes invisible).
Why doesn't it make sense?
Consider the following - an invisible pocket is just a folded piece of invisible fabric. Let's say I, as a DM rules that a visible object placed into an invisible pocket becomes invisible. Lets take that pocket out and hold it in my hand since it is just folded invisible fabric. Now I unfold the fabric so that the invisible fabric now blocks one side of the visible object. Can the visible object be seen from one side and not the other? That would seem to make sense if an invisible object can be used to hide a visible one. Now lets move the visible object 5' behind the invisible fabric. If I am still looking through the invisible fabric is the visible item invisible when viewed through the fabric? Does that mean a wall or door that is 5' behind an invisible person would also be invisible/not seen through the invisible person? At this point, you run into why it doesn't make sense. If a visible object can be placed behind and invisible object to hide it and make it also invisible then the invisible person should block sight of anything on the other side of them since it would become invisible. So, when I am running it, only items worn or carried when the spell is cast can become invisible AND any visible item carried by the invisible creature remains visible, even if they put it in a pocket or otherwise try to conceal it since the point of invisibility is that it is completely see through.