In D&D 5e there's no correct price on the mithral, as it is one of many thing that is left to the DM to make by themselves. Mithril may be a rare material in one world or common in another.
Due to rarity and following the DM guide p. 135, mithral armor is uncommon and uncommon items cost between 101/500 gold but we thought it didn't make sense since the plate armor, wich is the one i wanted made of mithral, costs 1500 gold following this armor values. It cannot be that the mithral plate armor is actually cheaper than regular plate armor, so i reached an agreement with my DM, that a plate mithral armor could cost about 2000 gold following a thread, wich i can no longer find, that suggested adding the 500 gold to the base price of the object. 1500 Gold for the plate base price + 500 because is made of mithral. The problems comes because two of the other players complain that it should have cost me more.
One of them said that the fair price is 25 gold per lb, following this thread, completly ignorant that the plate armor weights only 65lb (that would make it 1625 gold, less than what i already paid) and since mithral only weights half the regular alloy and since the armor is made for a small creature it would weight 1/8 of the original weight (acording to what described in the reduce spell) it would weigh 4 lb and cost 100 gold... It's a way to put it but at the end it cost less than the original plate armor again.
Then the same player said that it should cost 10000 gold (because in other systems is what it costs i think), but i find that excessive, since very rare items cost between 5001 and 50000, the mithral plate armor cannot cost nearly close to what a +2 plate armor costs.
I would like to hear which of this methods would you think it is more fair or if you have a better method to appraise. This thread will help to end the disccusion i have with the other to players whatever the result.
DnD 5e has a very imbalanced and nonsensical economy. It neither makes sense from the perspective of the adventurers or from an in-world lore stance. (Look at how expensive a glass bottle is.) Or how much more expensive a Rapier is than a Longsword. I think you need to take a look at what the material does as a GM, how hard you think it should be to obtain, and evaluate pricing based on that. Also, is this even something the players can purchase in most cities? I would suspect not. It's possible that the difficulty in obtaining Mithril armor is more in finding someone who can sell it/craft it in the first place.
SO at least for 5th ed my games mithril was double the price and if you could find someone with adamantium it was 4x times the price to be crafted. Found armor was always less expensive since it was used etc....
Also Eco a long sword (15gp) takes far less time to craft and is easier while a rapier (25gp) is far harder and takes more time and effort. Also glass in medieval times was expensive and very rare so 2 gp would sound correct.
And while the examples are not good Eco does make a point about how easy is it to obtain. My games normally you would have to find the dwarves for better metals since they look for that and most above ground races would end up trading from the dwarves for those things.
To verify: The goal is to find justification for and a pricing of a full sit of Mithral Armor in 5e in order to settle an argument at a table.
So, to start with 5e has Mithral Armor listed as a magic item. That means it is going to be impacted according tot he functional rules of buying and selling.
The suggested values for magical items are for player Characters *selling* an item to someone else, not for buying it. As explained in the chapter about them, these ar e items that are usually used and held as heirlooms and other things that people either collect or do not wish to part with, and they will always buy low.
On top of that, all prices for selling something are presented as low prices, because the game as a whole seeks to suck the money out of a player's hands. So using the chart to determine a buying price for a suit of Plate Armor made of the magical metal Mithral is an error because that isn't how the table is meant to be used. It would be good if it was going to be something that one would sell to an NPC.
Next, we look at the value of the regular Plate Armor. Note that it isn't described beyond having "metal". So this could be iron, steel, brass, bronze or whatever (on purpose). That value is set at 1500 gp.
So we know that the absolute minimum piece is going to be at least double 1500 gp, because this is not a common metal -- meaning that it is harder to find, hat is is less often used, that people may not be able to work it s=and so you have to pay for more experienced people, and it is magical, so you have to consider that as well. It likely takes a master craftsperson and an eitre forge to fashion such a thing -- and the same chapter on magical items notes that the ability to make such things is lost (damn, FR really is a sad little realm).
Which leads one to suppose that getting such a suit made is essentially not possible within normative rules, because there's no freaking rules to support it that are official (likely why the OP used many different external sources).
Given I dislike most external rules that I didn't make up, I can't speak to their value or not -- I would approach this from a material value perspective, which means pricing it. Mithral is more valuable than platinum, and rarer to find. We know this because if it wasn't, it would be used for coinage as well.
Now, with Mithral being more valuable than platinum, we have an easy way to convert -- shift the price of the basic Plate Armor from Gold Pieces to platinum pieces. So, a set of Mithral Armor would cost 1500 Platinum pieces (since I use a 10 to 1 ratio, that would be 15,000 gp for me).
That shift accounts for the rarity of the metal, the rarity of someone taking that metal and making a suit of plate armor for it (because unless it is really common to the point that every major noble has a suit of mitral armor just available, the thing is just not common an idea enough to be easily available), the difficulty in getting it made, the magical qualities of it, and the general ethos of the game as a whole when it comes to the whole process of buying magical items (which the game works hard to discourage).
My call is 15,000 gp. It is not a call I would make for my games, but my games don't have mithral, and I would likely charge 25k for the equivalent.
I will also note that Mithral Half Plate +1 would be less -- it is half plate. 7500 plus a bonus for the additional magical quality, I would likely set it at around 10k if some player wanted to buy it, and they could sell it for about 300 gp if they needed to. Using the same general calculations, a well.
That obviously is more than the OP thinks is reasonable, and yet, I find it to be very reasonable given the restrictions of the game system as a whole, mechnically, that seek to stop folks from being able to buy more than a few potions and if they are lucky a scroll.
Fortunately, there are a lot of folks who will disagree with me.
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I like how you explain thinks, let me add some details to the background.
We are playing the Neverwinter module "dragon of icespire peak", where i already found a "mithral half-plate" armor in one mision, not because the Dm put it there, because it actually there's one on the module. I'm playing an artificer, with +5 intelligence, and with "armor of tools infusion" i can get to another +5 intelligence on using tools (smith tools), adding double proficiency on tools (we are at level five so +3x2) and adding guidance cantrip and other bonus, i can get an absurdly high crafting bonus. I also dispose of the forge in Phandalin and the blacksmith girl helps me after earning her trust by making her a prosthesis that helps with her bad leg. My intention was to convert the mithrall half plate into a full-plate armor but for that we needed to settle a price so we can calculate money to put on material, time, and dc of the check.
I like how you explain thinks, let me add some details to the background.
We are playing the Neverwinter module "dragon of icespire peak", where i already found a "mithral half-plate" armor in one mision, not because the Dm put it there, because it actually there's one on the module. I'm playing an artificer, with +5 intelligence, and with "armor of tools infusion" i can get to another +5 intelligence on using tools (smith tools), adding double proficiency on tools (we are at level five so +3x2) and adding guidance cantrip and other bonus, i can get an absurdly high crafting bonus. I also dispose of the forge in Phandalin and the blacksmith girl helps me after earning her trust by making her a prosthesis that helps with her bad leg. My intention was to convert the mithrall half plate into a full-plate armor but for that we needed to settle a price so we can calculate money to put on material, time, and dc of the check.
ok, that shifts things a bit. First off, the crafting is being one by you and a heper.
Sadly, 5e lacks any real crafting rules, so the basics of what we are talking about is adding enough stuff to half plate to make it into full plate.
So, a full plate is still 15k, but we can assume half that is taken up by the Half plate armor, bringing the cost down to 7500 gp. That also allows us to account for your skill, as well.
Based on Xanathar's crafting stuff, we know that you have to somehow obtain a recipe for crafting the armor. We also know this applies even to artificers, and that the recipe has to involve some sort of critter something from a CR 4 to 8 level monster.
In my case, I'd likely make you go out and find the darn metal, but not my game, so we can assume that since it is a rare metal, you would probably need to find an existing stash of it somehwere, and monster stuff is good. So that's 2 things to find: the material (which, being a magical metal, isn't going to be available in FR just lying around in some shop) and the Formula for making the missing parts you need.
Even the artificer abilities don't le tyou craft that sort of thing out of nothing 9It isn't kit bashing), so you would still have to go and get them, though you could likely inspriation your way through most of the little stuff, and we can leave it at the whole 2 items thing.
The value, of course, would be 7500 gp worth of value.
THe time to do it is going to be next. We know that if you have help when crafting a normal item, you can cut the crafting time in half. The base crafting time, derived fromt he 7500 gp value, is 150 work weeks. Cut that in half since you have help, and that's 75 work weeks. An artificer can use their peculiar magic in strange ways, so although there aren't any rules for it, I would be willing to chop that in half as well, so let's call it 37 work weeks.
That does conflict with the "uncommon takes 2 weeks" thing, but there is a reason for that: the table sucks. If the number of work weeks is based on cost of the item, then the table doesn't work. If the number of workweeks is based on the kind of item, then the formula for how long it takes sucks. THe two do not match and the basic underlying mechanics for it are because they didn't realize what they were doing at the time, and presumed the same underlying idea that was originally and used the "selling an item" cost as their basis, instead of treating this as a stand alone crafting system.
THis is why crafting in 5e is all but impossible. Y'all can argue about the time it takes. Different arguments might get me down to about 12 weeks, but nothing shorter than that because you are working on magical armor and it is a bear because you have to match existing parts and pieces.
So assuming you get the 7500 gp worth of raw materials, that you have a formula for it, that you have 37 work weeks, next is the DC for both the Arcana and the skill check. Because this is a modification to an existing piece, and because it is fairly uncommon I would call it hard. That's a DC 20. given that FR is set up so that making magical items is almost impossible, I could even go with a Very Hard DC. So DC 20 to 25.
Now, let's say we do the 37 weeks to do it. That's two checks on your part -- Arcana and Crafting. But on the DM side there is also the chance of complications. Officially, complications have a 10% chance for every five weeks. That would be a 70% chance of complications, which is fitting with the DC, but I think too high in terms of a general effort I would probably say there is a 50% chance of a complications, and roll the dice. 51 or better, you are clear, less and you get a roll on the complications table.
Bring it down to 12 weeks, and there's a 20% chance, which I wouldn't alter, so same process.
If you got all the assorted rolls done at the end of the time period, I would let you have mithral Plate armor that you made.
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A nonmagical plate amor cost 1,500 gp and an uncommon magic item cost 500 gp so 2,000 gp for an uncommon magic mithral plate armor sounds reasonable to me.
A nonmagical plate amor cost 1,500 gp and an uncommon magic item cost 500 gp so 2,000 gp for an uncommon magic mithral plate armor sounds reasonable to me.
In D&D 5e there's no correct price on the mithral, as it is one of many thing that is left to the DM to make by themselves. Mithril may be a rare material in one world or common in another.
Due to rarity and following the DM guide p. 135, mithral armor is uncommon and uncommon items cost between 101/500 gold but we thought it didn't make sense since the plate armor, wich is the one i wanted made of mithral, costs 1500 gold following this armor values. It cannot be that the mithral plate armor is actually cheaper than regular plate armor, so i reached an agreement with my DM, that a plate mithral armor could cost about 2000 gold following a thread, wich i can no longer find, that suggested adding the 500 gold to the base price of the object. 1500 Gold for the plate base price + 500 because is made of mithral. The problems comes because two of the other players complain that it should have cost me more.
One of them said that the fair price is 25 gold per lb, following this thread, completly ignorant that the plate armor weights only 65lb (that would make it 1625 gold, less than what i already paid) and since mithral only weights half the regular alloy and since the armor is made for a small creature it would weight 1/8 of the original weight (acording to what described in the reduce spell) it would weigh 4 lb and cost 100 gold... It's a way to put it but at the end it cost less than the original plate armor again.
Then the same player said that it should cost 10000 gold (because in other systems is what it costs i think), but i find that excessive, since very rare items cost between 5001 and 50000, the mithral plate armor cannot cost nearly close to what a +2 plate armor costs.
I would like to hear which of this methods would you think it is more fair or if you have a better method to appraise. This thread will help to end the disccusion i have with the other to players whatever the result.
I think comparing Mithral armor to a +2 variant is fair and in the ball park. While you don't gain the benefit in your AC; it alleviates the requirements for strength score and allows for regular stealth checks; thus a character can invest more in their DEX score which improves DEX saves and allows them to benefit from using range weapons and with no reduction to a melee attacks with a finesse weapon. Point being, even if these DEX benefits don't equate to a +2 in AC it is hardly inconsequential. I would estimate it is on the lower end of the very rare range that you provided: Or if you used a simple factor like 3x the cost and that puts you at 4500gp, which again I think is fair.
I feel (and I don't think I am alone) that the 5e doesn't have a good mechanisms for baselining rarity and value of items. In many cases, it comes down to fact that it is a game and new modules can contradict the theories from legacy game developer of how a particular item is valued. So you proposed method for establishing your argument is sound; but I can see the game developers defining the rarity of these items based on frequency to find a mining colony which produces Mithral items vs. a Wizard willing to enchant armor as oppose to merely the cost of the items. One reason I say this is because if Mithral armor is only just uncommon then your DM would be right to start increasing the AC or abilities of Monsters wearing armor that you are facing on your quests to find items of more rarity.
The XGtE should give your DM and yourself guidance on what the cost will be to craft the item. And I think you said that you have Mithral half plate, so that will drop the cost in gold by at least half (maybe a quarter in time to craft). I think it is good to use this moment to work on some structure for crafting if you plan on using the feature more. It is a benefit to have baselines so that the table can anticipate and adjust when you gauge in future endeavors. Good luck with your discussion.
I would say that is much too cheap. Mithril armor is WAY more overpowered compared to other uncommon items. This other guy that has it listed at 15k is more accurate, just based off of the rarity of the metal and the scarcity of master smiths that can actually craft with it. 2k is a no-brainer to anyone in the market for armor, that's barely a choice over standard plate. Imo...
As Dorsay points out both the crafting rules and the magic item rules are more about limiting or relieving the PC cash than they are about anything remotely like economics. Effectively there is no set price for Mithril plate or any other magic item either in terms of buying it or making it. All we can do is provide your DM with some ideas about how to determine what a fair price is. After that it’s up to your DM - both to set the price and process and to stop the enevitable bickering over that decision that will occur after it is made. I could come up with arguments justifying everything from about 2000GPs up to about 25,000 GP. But it’s up to your DM not me.
Right. The "it should cost less because it weighs less" argument is a cheat- It's important to note that if we let's say took the Tolkien quote that Mithril is x10 more valuable than gold, and also 10 times lighter, but then apply the logic that it should be priced per gram/pound accordingly, then we land back where we started and the two metals would have the same value.
To me, it seems very straightforward. Uncommon means x10 the price. It also has a bonus equivalent to that 1 step up. Therefore, Mithral equipment costs x10 its original counterpart. Anybody trying to mess with the precise numbers is just trying to cheat.
I also don't get the argument for small creatures; DnD does not HAVE different prices for armor for different races and PC sizes; therefore this whole argument is moot.
I like Dorsay's take on this as I said before. As she pointed out the pricing, crafting and magical creation rules in 5e are either nonexistent or so messed up as to be effectively unusable. Looked outside of 5e, mithril is essentially titanium. As such the prices for the metal vary from roughly the same as good steel to about 3 times the price. That is after the modern commercial process of refining the ore into metallic titanium. Even in the modern world that process isn't easy. Steel is made by removing carbon from iron after reducing the oxide ores with carbon at high temperature. modern furnaces use temperatures above 2500 F to produce "pig" iron that contains @ 3% carbon. this is then reduced in the steel furnace to somewhere between 0.5% and 1.8% carbon and then alloying materials are added (NI, Cr, Mo, V, etc) if needed for the steel being made. (Today the entire process can be done in a single step but this is what is being done. the process for titanium (mithril) (Kroll Process) is a bit different. First the ore has to be cleaned and is then reacted with chlorine gas to convert the oxide ores to titanium chloride. then the chloride is reduced in an inert atmosphere (Argon - nitrogen would react at temperature) with sodium or potassium to reduce the ore to a pure metal. then the metal can be alloyed if needed (usually). again, this done at high temperatures (>2500F) and the presence of oxygen (air) is highly explosive, so it is also done under an inert atmosphere. While I can think of some possible other ways to refine the titanium they typically call for either an inert atmosphere or a vacuum to limit the reaction to oxygen /nitrogen. to do this in a D&D world clearly calls for the use of magic just to get the titanium/mithril hence the reason it is considered a magical metal. In the real world, Titanium is actually mined almost exclusively from the black sands of beaches and streams where it can be separated from the iron ore and other heavy resistant minerals by magnetic and density processes. it can also be found in a few magma chamber (Kuroku type) type density separation ore deposits where it tends to be found as a band of grains between the lighter silicates and the denser iron/chromium/gold and platinum layers. for game purposes I would consider the placer deposits as the elve's primary sources and the kuroku type deposits as the dwarve's main ores.
Trying to translate all of this into game pricing and crafting terms I would say it means the price of any sort of "raw" mithril/titanium metal would range from 3 to 10 times that of iron. You're almost more likely to find another suit of mithril armor (of any type) than to find and purchase "raw" metal. Then working it, you need a magic forge - not just a regular one. By RAW, the Phandelver "magic forge" (Windsong cave) may or may not qualify any more (up to your DM really). Then you would need a master smith to do the work (at best you're a helper not the main smith). I think the smith in Phandalin might qualify - If I recall correctly, she has a dwarven forge set up and was trained by a dwarven master then given the forge by him so I would assume she was his best student and had qualified as a master smith herself by dwarven standards.
The crafting times Dorsay suggested seem reasonable for a single shop. if you read here: https://neutralhistory.com/crafting-plate-armor-in-the-middle-ages-from-ore-to-battle-ready/ you can see why plate armor could be produced very quickly in a few places set up for the commercial/industrial style production of it. realistically, you're out adventuring while the smith makes the armor for you so 20-35 weeks sounds fair (welcome to "not this campaign but next - after the winter adventuring break")
all together your conversion of a mithril half plate to mithril full plate should cost 2000 to 6000 GP and take 20-40 weeks (4-8 months)
Please don't ask about Admantite (Tungten) its just as crazy
Glad I started with Chainmail the Orginal books and Gary as a DM on occasion. My take as an old timer where the books were very basic guidelines the game is less entertaining and challenging when you spend more time reading fine print than playing and letting the DM create a story around the characters playing. As an example - in my world unless you were a Dwarf of renown or nobility you just are not buying Mithral or anything made of mithral. Your either going to get it as a magic item or have something very special to barter - gold won’t do it Bilbos shirt was worth his weight in gold (at least) so you defeating someone, winning it for a crazy heroic deed or trading slot of cool stuff to get a mithral shirt. You want more than that - you might find some mithral ore on adventure after you barely live. The you are going to spend an insane effort finding a dwarf or even smith who can craft mithral. That costs as much as the materials. You want plate it is going to take a lot of ore so give up you won’t find that much and will need to find the best drawvish armorer in the land expect to spend several adventures finding him and getting him to work for you - you better be an impressive dwarf or have a good friend. So your going to end up getting a chainmail shirt. Still need to find a highly skilled craftsman - beyond human capability will need to be a dwarf or elvish master smith. Plan on installment payments for the work because it is going to cost more than the best plate armor by a lot and you have plenty of time to adventure and dig up cash. After all a smith who can work mithral has a wait list of nobility ahead of you and maybe his best apprentice can start making the wire for the rings with daily supervision when he is not working on the dukes new plate and the chain it requires. So see you next spring to pick-up your lovely new shirt. Or get lucking and find it in the dungeon after Bailey escaping with your life.
like Gary G - I am not going to let you buy it there is no fun or adventure in Monte halls dungeon- you are going to work for it and I am going to work hard to build an adventure around your efforts - so have fun and good luck - welcome to the days before AD&D Monster Manual or DMs guide.
short answer is the DM makes it work in their dungeon or the game turns to orc dung.
Your to easy - I give him a chance to get it down to 100 weeks but without help of a master dwarf or elf smith with 100s of years experience and has maybe made a dozen mithral items his work hits complications just a roll of how long and the work is noticeably inferior. So as the DM I am going to give it a flaw against certain attacks and add unknown penalties when that happens. Because I am mean and grew up playing the original set - each time he takes a sever hit there is a chance of failure and this armor is going to spend a lot of time being repaired.
Your too easy - I give him a chance to get it down to 100 weeks but without help of a master dwarf or elf smith with 100s of years experience and has maybe made a dozen mithral items his work hits complications just a roll of how long and the work is noticeably inferior. So as the DM I am going to give it a flaw against certain attacks and add unknown penalties when that happens. Because I am mean and grew up playing the original set - each time he takes a sever hit there is a chance of failure and this armor is going to spend a lot of time being repaired.
Your to easy - I give him a chance to get it down to 100 weeks but without help of a master dwarf or elf smith with 100s of years experience and has maybe made a dozen mithral items his work hits complications just a roll of how long and the work is noticeably inferior. So as the DM I am going to give it a flaw against certain attacks and add unknown penalties when that happens. Because I am mean and grew up playing the original set - each time he takes a sever hit there is a chance of failure and this armor is going to spend a lot of time being repaired.
Your to easy - I give him a chance to get it down to 100 weeks but without help of a master dwarf or elf smith with 100s of years experience and has maybe made a dozen mithral items his work hits complications just a roll of how long and the work is noticeably inferior. So as the DM I am going to give it a flaw against certain attacks and add unknown penalties when that happens. Because I am mean and grew up playing the original set - each time he takes a sever hit there is a chance of failure and this armor is going to spend a lot of time being repaired.
ok, that shifts things a bit. First off, the crafting is being one by you and a heper.
Sadly, 5e lacks any real crafting rules, so the basics of what we are talking about is adding enough stuff to half plate to make it into full plate.
So, a full plate is still 15k, but we can assume half that is taken up by the Half plate armor, bringing the cost down to 7500 gp. That also allows us to account for your skill, as well.
Based on Xanathar's crafting stuff, we know that you have to somehow obtain a recipe for crafting the armor. We also know this applies even to artificers, and that the recipe has to involve some sort of critter something from a CR 4 to 8 level monster.
In my case, I'd likely make you go out and find the darn metal, but not my game, so we can assume that since it is a rare metal, you would probably need to find an existing stash of it somehwere, and monster stuff is good. So that's 2 things to find: the material (which, being a magical metal, isn't going to be available in FR just lying around in some shop) and the Formula for making the missing parts you need.
Even the artificer abilities don't le tyou craft that sort of thing out of nothing 9It isn't kit bashing), so you would still have to go and get them, though you could likely inspriation your way through most of the little stuff, and we can leave it at the whole 2 items thing.
The value, of course, would be 7500 gp worth of value.
THe time to do it is going to be next. We know that if you have help when crafting a normal item, you can cut the crafting time in half. The base crafting time, derived fromt he 7500 gp value, is 150 work weeks. Cut that in half since you have help, and that's 75 work weeks. An artificer can use their peculiar magic in strange ways, so although there aren't any rules for it, I would be willing to chop that in half as well, so let's call it 37 work weeks.
That does conflict with the "uncommon takes 2 weeks" thing, but there is a reason for that: the table sucks. If the number of work weeks is based on cost of the item, then the table doesn't work. If the number of workweeks is based on the kind of item, then the formula for how long it takes sucks. THe two do not match and the basic underlying mechanics for it are because they didn't realize what they were doing at the time, and presumed the same underlying idea that was originally and used the "selling an item" cost as their basis, instead of treating this as a stand alone crafting system.
THis is why crafting in 5e is all but impossible. Y'all can argue about the time it takes. Different arguments might get me down to about 12 weeks, but nothing shorter than that because you are working on magical armor and it is a bear because you have to match existing parts and pieces.
So assuming you get the 7500 gp worth of raw materials, that you have a formula for it, that you have 37 work weeks, next is the DC for both the Arcana and the skill check. Because this is a modification to an existing piece, and because it is fairly uncommon I would call it hard. That's a DC 20. given that FR is set up so that making magical items is almost impossible, I could even go with a Very Hard DC. So DC 20 to 25.
Now, let's say we do the 37 weeks to do it. That's two checks on your part -- Arcana and Crafting. But on the DM side there is also the chance of complications. Officially, complications have a 10% chance for every five weeks. That would be a 70% chance of complications, which is fitting with the DC, but I think too high in terms of a general effort I would probably say there is a 50% chance of a complications, and roll the dice. 51 or better, you are clear, less and you get a roll on the complications table.
Bring it down to 12 weeks, and there's a 20% chance, which I wouldn't alter, so same process.
If you got all the assorted rolls done at the end of the time period, I would let you have mithral Plate armor that you made.
Time to get real, no adventurer is going to be making Mithril or magic armor while adventuring. Why? 1) just because you have the smithing skill doesn’t mean your a master smith - if you were you wouldn’t need to adventure to make money, folks would be coming to you paying you big bucks to smith for them. 2) What that smithing skill really represents is that you are either an advanced apprentice or a beginning journeyman. You have learned the basics and are more or less competent with day to day work but haven’t started truly mastering the trade. 3) yes, there were armories that churned out lots of basic materials, and even form fitting individual armors and weapons quickly. However they were factories with lots of folks working and mastering individual pieces - welcome to mideveal production line factories. They were not some traveling/adventuring “mom and pop” smith at a borrowed forge which is what a PC is effectively. You are going to take much longer - hence the long times given as guidelines. Further that is taking you out of play for that length of time - roll up a new PC to play in the meantime.
The purpose of XGtE crafting is to provide an alternative way to acquire magic items between adventures for campaigns that do the “and with their journey concluded, our heroes return to [home base] until the next adventure begins”. It’s not intended as a way to immediately gain pieces in the field- that’s what drops, rewards, and magic item shops are for. In exchange for the time inefficiency it’s more monetarily efficient compared to the XGtE pricing recommendations. And nothing prevents a DM from treating a purchase like speed crafting if they wish. Crafting as a separate system is- by design- a trade-off option that leverages tool/Arcana proficiency to convert part of the cost to acquire an item from gold to time.
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In D&D 5e there's no correct price on the mithral, as it is one of many thing that is left to the DM to make by themselves. Mithril may be a rare material in one world or common in another.
Due to rarity and following the DM guide p. 135, mithral armor is uncommon and uncommon items cost between 101/500 gold but we thought it didn't make sense since the plate armor, wich is the one i wanted made of mithral, costs 1500 gold following this armor values. It cannot be that the mithral plate armor is actually cheaper than regular plate armor, so i reached an agreement with my DM, that a plate mithral armor could cost about 2000 gold following a thread, wich i can no longer find, that suggested adding the 500 gold to the base price of the object. 1500 Gold for the plate base price + 500 because is made of mithral. The problems comes because two of the other players complain that it should have cost me more.
One of them said that the fair price is 25 gold per lb, following this thread, completly ignorant that the plate armor weights only 65lb (that would make it 1625 gold, less than what i already paid) and since mithral only weights half the regular alloy and since the armor is made for a small creature it would weight 1/8 of the original weight (acording to what described in the reduce spell) it would weigh 4 lb and cost 100 gold... It's a way to put it but at the end it cost less than the original plate armor again.
Then the same player said that it should cost 10000 gold (because in other systems is what it costs i think), but i find that excessive, since very rare items cost between 5001 and 50000, the mithral plate armor cannot cost nearly close to what a +2 plate armor costs.
I would like to hear which of this methods would you think it is more fair or if you have a better method to appraise. This thread will help to end the disccusion i have with the other to players whatever the result.
DnD 5e has a very imbalanced and nonsensical economy. It neither makes sense from the perspective of the adventurers or from an in-world lore stance. (Look at how expensive a glass bottle is.) Or how much more expensive a Rapier is than a Longsword. I think you need to take a look at what the material does as a GM, how hard you think it should be to obtain, and evaluate pricing based on that. Also, is this even something the players can purchase in most cities? I would suspect not. It's possible that the difficulty in obtaining Mithril armor is more in finding someone who can sell it/craft it in the first place.
SO at least for 5th ed my games mithril was double the price and if you could find someone with adamantium it was 4x times the price to be crafted. Found armor was always less expensive since it was used etc....
Also Eco a long sword (15gp) takes far less time to craft and is easier while a rapier (25gp) is far harder and takes more time and effort. Also glass in medieval times was expensive and very rare so 2 gp would sound correct.
And while the examples are not good Eco does make a point about how easy is it to obtain. My games normally you would have to find the dwarves for better metals since they look for that and most above ground races would end up trading from the dwarves for those things.
To verify: The goal is to find justification for and a pricing of a full sit of Mithral Armor in 5e in order to settle an argument at a table.
So, to start with 5e has Mithral Armor listed as a magic item. That means it is going to be impacted according tot he functional rules of buying and selling.
The suggested values for magical items are for player Characters *selling* an item to someone else, not for buying it. As explained in the chapter about them, these ar e items that are usually used and held as heirlooms and other things that people either collect or do not wish to part with, and they will always buy low.
On top of that, all prices for selling something are presented as low prices, because the game as a whole seeks to suck the money out of a player's hands. So using the chart to determine a buying price for a suit of Plate Armor made of the magical metal Mithral is an error because that isn't how the table is meant to be used. It would be good if it was going to be something that one would sell to an NPC.
Next, we look at the value of the regular Plate Armor. Note that it isn't described beyond having "metal". So this could be iron, steel, brass, bronze or whatever (on purpose). That value is set at 1500 gp.
So we know that the absolute minimum piece is going to be at least double 1500 gp, because this is not a common metal -- meaning that it is harder to find, hat is is less often used, that people may not be able to work it s=and so you have to pay for more experienced people, and it is magical, so you have to consider that as well. It likely takes a master craftsperson and an eitre forge to fashion such a thing -- and the same chapter on magical items notes that the ability to make such things is lost (damn, FR really is a sad little realm).
Which leads one to suppose that getting such a suit made is essentially not possible within normative rules, because there's no freaking rules to support it that are official (likely why the OP used many different external sources).
Given I dislike most external rules that I didn't make up, I can't speak to their value or not -- I would approach this from a material value perspective, which means pricing it. Mithral is more valuable than platinum, and rarer to find. We know this because if it wasn't, it would be used for coinage as well.
Now, with Mithral being more valuable than platinum, we have an easy way to convert -- shift the price of the basic Plate Armor from Gold Pieces to platinum pieces. So, a set of Mithral Armor would cost 1500 Platinum pieces (since I use a 10 to 1 ratio, that would be 15,000 gp for me).
That shift accounts for the rarity of the metal, the rarity of someone taking that metal and making a suit of plate armor for it (because unless it is really common to the point that every major noble has a suit of mitral armor just available, the thing is just not common an idea enough to be easily available), the difficulty in getting it made, the magical qualities of it, and the general ethos of the game as a whole when it comes to the whole process of buying magical items (which the game works hard to discourage).
My call is 15,000 gp. It is not a call I would make for my games, but my games don't have mithral, and I would likely charge 25k for the equivalent.
I will also note that Mithral Half Plate +1 would be less -- it is half plate. 7500 plus a bonus for the additional magical quality, I would likely set it at around 10k if some player wanted to buy it, and they could sell it for about 300 gp if they needed to. Using the same general calculations, a well.
That obviously is more than the OP thinks is reasonable, and yet, I find it to be very reasonable given the restrictions of the game system as a whole, mechnically, that seek to stop folks from being able to buy more than a few potions and if they are lucky a scroll.
Fortunately, there are a lot of folks who will disagree with me.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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I like how you explain thinks, let me add some details to the background.
We are playing the Neverwinter module "dragon of icespire peak", where i already found a "mithral half-plate" armor in one mision, not because the Dm put it there, because it actually there's one on the module. I'm playing an artificer, with +5 intelligence, and with "armor of tools infusion" i can get to another +5 intelligence on using tools (smith tools), adding double proficiency on tools (we are at level five so +3x2) and adding guidance cantrip and other bonus, i can get an absurdly high crafting bonus. I also dispose of the forge in Phandalin and the blacksmith girl helps me after earning her trust by making her a prosthesis that helps with her bad leg. My intention was to convert the mithrall half plate into a full-plate armor but for that we needed to settle a price so we can calculate money to put on material, time, and dc of the check.
ok, that shifts things a bit. First off, the crafting is being one by you and a heper.
Sadly, 5e lacks any real crafting rules, so the basics of what we are talking about is adding enough stuff to half plate to make it into full plate.
So, a full plate is still 15k, but we can assume half that is taken up by the Half plate armor, bringing the cost down to 7500 gp. That also allows us to account for your skill, as well.
Based on Xanathar's crafting stuff, we know that you have to somehow obtain a recipe for crafting the armor. We also know this applies even to artificers, and that the recipe has to involve some sort of critter something from a CR 4 to 8 level monster.
In my case, I'd likely make you go out and find the darn metal, but not my game, so we can assume that since it is a rare metal, you would probably need to find an existing stash of it somehwere, and monster stuff is good. So that's 2 things to find: the material (which, being a magical metal, isn't going to be available in FR just lying around in some shop) and the Formula for making the missing parts you need.
Even the artificer abilities don't le tyou craft that sort of thing out of nothing 9It isn't kit bashing), so you would still have to go and get them, though you could likely inspriation your way through most of the little stuff, and we can leave it at the whole 2 items thing.
The value, of course, would be 7500 gp worth of value.
THe time to do it is going to be next. We know that if you have help when crafting a normal item, you can cut the crafting time in half. The base crafting time, derived fromt he 7500 gp value, is 150 work weeks. Cut that in half since you have help, and that's 75 work weeks. An artificer can use their peculiar magic in strange ways, so although there aren't any rules for it, I would be willing to chop that in half as well, so let's call it 37 work weeks.
That does conflict with the "uncommon takes 2 weeks" thing, but there is a reason for that: the table sucks. If the number of work weeks is based on cost of the item, then the table doesn't work. If the number of workweeks is based on the kind of item, then the formula for how long it takes sucks. THe two do not match and the basic underlying mechanics for it are because they didn't realize what they were doing at the time, and presumed the same underlying idea that was originally and used the "selling an item" cost as their basis, instead of treating this as a stand alone crafting system.
THis is why crafting in 5e is all but impossible. Y'all can argue about the time it takes. Different arguments might get me down to about 12 weeks, but nothing shorter than that because you are working on magical armor and it is a bear because you have to match existing parts and pieces.
So assuming you get the 7500 gp worth of raw materials, that you have a formula for it, that you have 37 work weeks, next is the DC for both the Arcana and the skill check. Because this is a modification to an existing piece, and because it is fairly uncommon I would call it hard. That's a DC 20. given that FR is set up so that making magical items is almost impossible, I could even go with a Very Hard DC. So DC 20 to 25.
Now, let's say we do the 37 weeks to do it. That's two checks on your part -- Arcana and Crafting. But on the DM side there is also the chance of complications. Officially, complications have a 10% chance for every five weeks. That would be a 70% chance of complications, which is fitting with the DC, but I think too high in terms of a general effort I would probably say there is a 50% chance of a complications, and roll the dice. 51 or better, you are clear, less and you get a roll on the complications table.
Bring it down to 12 weeks, and there's a 20% chance, which I wouldn't alter, so same process.
If you got all the assorted rolls done at the end of the time period, I would let you have mithral Plate armor that you made.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
A nonmagical plate amor cost 1,500 gp and an uncommon magic item cost 500 gp so 2,000 gp for an uncommon magic mithral plate armor sounds reasonable to me.
Agreed. 2,000 seems appropriate.
I think comparing Mithral armor to a +2 variant is fair and in the ball park. While you don't gain the benefit in your AC; it alleviates the requirements for strength score and allows for regular stealth checks; thus a character can invest more in their DEX score which improves DEX saves and allows them to benefit from using range weapons and with no reduction to a melee attacks with a finesse weapon. Point being, even if these DEX benefits don't equate to a +2 in AC it is hardly inconsequential. I would estimate it is on the lower end of the very rare range that you provided: Or if you used a simple factor like 3x the cost and that puts you at 4500gp, which again I think is fair.
I feel (and I don't think I am alone) that the 5e doesn't have a good mechanisms for baselining rarity and value of items. In many cases, it comes down to fact that it is a game and new modules can contradict the theories from legacy game developer of how a particular item is valued. So you proposed method for establishing your argument is sound; but I can see the game developers defining the rarity of these items based on frequency to find a mining colony which produces Mithral items vs. a Wizard willing to enchant armor as oppose to merely the cost of the items. One reason I say this is because if Mithral armor is only just uncommon then your DM would be right to start increasing the AC or abilities of Monsters wearing armor that you are facing on your quests to find items of more rarity.
The XGtE should give your DM and yourself guidance on what the cost will be to craft the item. And I think you said that you have Mithral half plate, so that will drop the cost in gold by at least half (maybe a quarter in time to craft). I think it is good to use this moment to work on some structure for crafting if you plan on using the feature more. It is a benefit to have baselines so that the table can anticipate and adjust when you gauge in future endeavors. Good luck with your discussion.
I would say that is much too cheap. Mithril armor is WAY more overpowered compared to other uncommon items. This other guy that has it listed at 15k is more accurate, just based off of the rarity of the metal and the scarcity of master smiths that can actually craft with it. 2k is a no-brainer to anyone in the market for armor, that's barely a choice over standard plate. Imo...
As Dorsay points out both the crafting rules and the magic item rules are more about limiting or relieving the PC cash than they are about anything remotely like economics. Effectively there is no set price for Mithril plate or any other magic item either in terms of buying it or making it. All we can do is provide your DM with some ideas about how to determine what a fair price is. After that it’s up to your DM - both to set the price and process and to stop the enevitable bickering over that decision that will occur after it is made. I could come up with arguments justifying everything from about 2000GPs up to about 25,000 GP. But it’s up to your DM not me.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I agree this is a very powerful item. For me, the price should be around 1.5-2k, definitely not less as listed by Priceva.
At that price it would be cheaper to just have a magical enchantment applied
Right. The "it should cost less because it weighs less" argument is a cheat- It's important to note that if we let's say took the Tolkien quote that Mithril is x10 more valuable than gold, and also 10 times lighter, but then apply the logic that it should be priced per gram/pound accordingly, then we land back where we started and the two metals would have the same value.
To me, it seems very straightforward. Uncommon means x10 the price. It also has a bonus equivalent to that 1 step up. Therefore, Mithral equipment costs x10 its original counterpart. Anybody trying to mess with the precise numbers is just trying to cheat.
I also don't get the argument for small creatures; DnD does not HAVE different prices for armor for different races and PC sizes; therefore this whole argument is moot.
I like Dorsay's take on this as I said before. As she pointed out the pricing, crafting and magical creation rules in 5e are either nonexistent or so messed up as to be effectively unusable. Looked outside of 5e, mithril is essentially titanium. As such the prices for the metal vary from roughly the same as good steel to about 3 times the price. That is after the modern commercial process of refining the ore into metallic titanium. Even in the modern world that process isn't easy. Steel is made by removing carbon from iron after reducing the oxide ores with carbon at high temperature. modern furnaces use temperatures above 2500 F to produce "pig" iron that contains @ 3% carbon. this is then reduced in the steel furnace to somewhere between 0.5% and 1.8% carbon and then alloying materials are added (NI, Cr, Mo, V, etc) if needed for the steel being made. (Today the entire process can be done in a single step but this is what is being done. the process for titanium (mithril) (Kroll Process) is a bit different. First the ore has to be cleaned and is then reacted with chlorine gas to convert the oxide ores to titanium chloride. then the chloride is reduced in an inert atmosphere (Argon - nitrogen would react at temperature) with sodium or potassium to reduce the ore to a pure metal. then the metal can be alloyed if needed (usually). again, this done at high temperatures (>2500F) and the presence of oxygen (air) is highly explosive, so it is also done under an inert atmosphere. While I can think of some possible other ways to refine the titanium they typically call for either an inert atmosphere or a vacuum to limit the reaction to oxygen /nitrogen. to do this in a D&D world clearly calls for the use of magic just to get the titanium/mithril hence the reason it is considered a magical metal. In the real world, Titanium is actually mined almost exclusively from the black sands of beaches and streams where it can be separated from the iron ore and other heavy resistant minerals by magnetic and density processes. it can also be found in a few magma chamber (Kuroku type) type density separation ore deposits where it tends to be found as a band of grains between the lighter silicates and the denser iron/chromium/gold and platinum layers. for game purposes I would consider the placer deposits as the elve's primary sources and the kuroku type deposits as the dwarve's main ores.
Trying to translate all of this into game pricing and crafting terms I would say it means the price of any sort of "raw" mithril/titanium metal would range from 3 to 10 times that of iron. You're almost more likely to find another suit of mithril armor (of any type) than to find and purchase "raw" metal. Then working it, you need a magic forge - not just a regular one. By RAW, the Phandelver "magic forge" (Windsong cave) may or may not qualify any more (up to your DM really). Then you would need a master smith to do the work (at best you're a helper not the main smith). I think the smith in Phandalin might qualify - If I recall correctly, she has a dwarven forge set up and was trained by a dwarven master then given the forge by him so I would assume she was his best student and had qualified as a master smith herself by dwarven standards.
The crafting times Dorsay suggested seem reasonable for a single shop. if you read here: https://neutralhistory.com/crafting-plate-armor-in-the-middle-ages-from-ore-to-battle-ready/ you can see why plate armor could be produced very quickly in a few places set up for the commercial/industrial style production of it. realistically, you're out adventuring while the smith makes the armor for you so 20-35 weeks sounds fair (welcome to "not this campaign but next - after the winter adventuring break")
all together your conversion of a mithril half plate to mithril full plate should cost 2000 to 6000 GP and take 20-40 weeks (4-8 months)
Please don't ask about Admantite (Tungten) its just as crazy
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Glad I started with Chainmail the Orginal books and Gary as a DM on occasion. My take as an old timer where the books were very basic guidelines the game is less entertaining and challenging when you spend more time reading fine print than playing and letting the DM create a story around the characters playing. As an example - in my world unless you were a Dwarf of renown or nobility you just are not buying Mithral or anything made of mithral. Your either going to get it as a magic item or have something very special to barter - gold won’t do it Bilbos shirt was worth his weight in gold (at least) so you defeating someone, winning it for a crazy heroic deed or trading slot of cool stuff to get a mithral shirt. You want more than that - you might find some mithral ore on adventure after you barely live. The you are going to spend an insane effort finding a dwarf or even smith who can craft mithral. That costs as much as the materials. You want plate it is going to take a lot of ore so give up you won’t find that much and will need to find the best drawvish armorer in the land expect to spend several adventures finding him and getting him to work for you - you better be an impressive dwarf or have a good friend. So your going to end up getting a chainmail shirt. Still need to find a highly skilled craftsman - beyond human capability will need to be a dwarf or elvish master smith. Plan on installment payments for the work because it is going to cost more than the best plate armor by a lot and you have plenty of time to adventure and dig up cash. After all a smith who can work mithral has a wait list of nobility ahead of you and maybe his best apprentice can start making the wire for the rings with daily supervision when he is not working on the dukes new plate and the chain it requires. So see you next spring to pick-up your lovely new shirt. Or get lucking and find it in the dungeon after Bailey escaping with your life.
like Gary G - I am not going to let you buy it there is no fun or adventure in Monte halls dungeon- you are going to work for it and I am going to work hard to build an adventure around your efforts - so have fun and good luck - welcome to the days before AD&D Monster Manual or DMs guide.
short answer is the DM makes it work in their dungeon or the game turns to orc dung.
Your to easy - I give him a chance to get it down to 100 weeks but without help of a master dwarf or elf smith with 100s of years experience and has maybe made a dozen mithral items his work hits complications just a roll of how long and the work is noticeably inferior. So as the DM I am going to give it a flaw against certain attacks and add unknown penalties when that happens. Because I am mean and grew up playing the original set - each time he takes a sever hit there is a chance of failure and this armor is going to spend a lot of time being repaired.
ok, that shifts things a bit. First off, the crafting is being one by you and a heper.
Sadly, 5e lacks any real crafting rules, so the basics of what we are talking about is adding enough stuff to half plate to make it into full plate.
So, a full plate is still 15k, but we can assume half that is taken up by the Half plate armor, bringing the cost down to 7500 gp. That also allows us to account for your skill, as well.
Based on Xanathar's crafting stuff, we know that you have to somehow obtain a recipe for crafting the armor. We also know this applies even to artificers, and that the recipe has to involve some sort of critter something from a CR 4 to 8 level monster.
In my case, I'd likely make you go out and find the darn metal, but not my game, so we can assume that since it is a rare metal, you would probably need to find an existing stash of it somehwere, and monster stuff is good. So that's 2 things to find: the material (which, being a magical metal, isn't going to be available in FR just lying around in some shop) and the Formula for making the missing parts you need.
Even the artificer abilities don't le tyou craft that sort of thing out of nothing 9It isn't kit bashing), so you would still have to go and get them, though you could likely inspriation your way through most of the little stuff, and we can leave it at the whole 2 items thing.
The value, of course, would be 7500 gp worth of value.
THe time to do it is going to be next. We know that if you have help when crafting a normal item, you can cut the crafting time in half. The base crafting time, derived fromt he 7500 gp value, is 150 work weeks. Cut that in half since you have help, and that's 75 work weeks. An artificer can use their peculiar magic in strange ways, so although there aren't any rules for it, I would be willing to chop that in half as well, so let's call it 37 work weeks.
That does conflict with the "uncommon takes 2 weeks" thing, but there is a reason for that: the table sucks. If the number of work weeks is based on cost of the item, then the table doesn't work. If the number of workweeks is based on the kind of item, then the formula for how long it takes sucks. THe two do not match and the basic underlying mechanics for it are because they didn't realize what they were doing at the time, and presumed the same underlying idea that was originally and used the "selling an item" cost as their basis, instead of treating this as a stand alone crafting system.
THis is why crafting in 5e is all but impossible. Y'all can argue about the time it takes. Different arguments might get me down to about 12 weeks, but nothing shorter than that because you are working on magical armor and it is a bear because you have to match existing parts and pieces.
So assuming you get the 7500 gp worth of raw materials, that you have a formula for it, that you have 37 work weeks, next is the DC for both the Arcana and the skill check. Because this is a modification to an existing piece, and because it is fairly uncommon I would call it hard. That's a DC 20. given that FR is set up so that making magical items is almost impossible, I could even go with a Very Hard DC. So DC 20 to 25.
Now, let's say we do the 37 weeks to do it. That's two checks on your part -- Arcana and Crafting. But on the DM side there is also the chance of complications. Officially, complications have a 10% chance for every five weeks. That would be a 70% chance of complications, which is fitting with the DC, but I think too high in terms of a general effort I would probably say there is a 50% chance of a complications, and roll the dice. 51 or better, you are clear, less and you get a roll on the complications table.
Bring it down to 12 weeks, and there's a 20% chance, which I wouldn't alter, so same process.
If you got all the assorted rolls done at the end of the time period, I would let you have mithral Plate armor that you made.
Time to get real, no adventurer is going to be making Mithril or magic armor while adventuring. Why?
1) just because you have the smithing skill doesn’t mean your a master smith - if you were you wouldn’t need to adventure to make money, folks would be coming to you paying you big bucks to smith for them.
2) What that smithing skill really represents is that you are either an advanced apprentice or a beginning journeyman. You have learned the basics and are more or less competent with day to day work but haven’t started truly mastering the trade.
3) yes, there were armories that churned out lots of basic materials, and even form fitting individual armors and weapons quickly. However they were factories with lots of folks working and mastering individual pieces - welcome to mideveal production line factories. They were not some traveling/adventuring “mom and pop” smith at a borrowed forge which is what a PC is effectively. You are going to take much longer - hence the long times given as guidelines. Further that is taking you out of play for that length of time - roll up a new PC to play in the meantime.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The purpose of XGtE crafting is to provide an alternative way to acquire magic items between adventures for campaigns that do the “and with their journey concluded, our heroes return to [home base] until the next adventure begins”. It’s not intended as a way to immediately gain pieces in the field- that’s what drops, rewards, and magic item shops are for. In exchange for the time inefficiency it’s more monetarily efficient compared to the XGtE pricing recommendations. And nothing prevents a DM from treating a purchase like speed crafting if they wish. Crafting as a separate system is- by design- a trade-off option that leverages tool/Arcana proficiency to convert part of the cost to acquire an item from gold to time.