Hold the Door: 4 against 12

Party is in a room with 1 door, which opens inward and is currently closed. A dozen enemies approach and try to open the door. Party pushes door to try and hold it closed. Enemies push door to try to open it.

There is no lock, no bar, no stone to jam, no wedge to hammer. Its muscle against muscle.

The party needs to hold the door for a minute while the caster does teleport circle. 

How do you resolve this? 

I had everyone roll initiative because they all wanted to do something ata same time. Initiative gave me a way to sort who went first.

2024 rules dont do contested checks.  But its also not a shove or grapple. And it isnt 1v1 resolution. Its 4v12.

I started out having players do strength saves against the enemies outside.  But the way a d20 works, if 3 players roll a save each turn and there are 10 turns, odds are, someone will fail.  The door slipped open a bit and hands started reaching in. At some point, when it came to the other spellcasters turn, they did an aoe just outside the cracked door, ending thr encoujter long enough for teleport circle to be completed.

But it was very clear, i had no idea how the rules would say to resolve something like this.

Is there anything raw that would cover this?

Not that I know of.

I agree I don’t think there’s RAW. Maybe closest would be opposed athletics checks, with both sides getting advantage from others giving the help action, so really, it would turn into a 1v1 instead of 4v12. Which could make more sense if you’re on a grid. Really only one person can be right against the door, and maybe one on either side pushing at an angle. That’s why I’m thinking 1v1, with a help action as it might be a closer fit to the rules.
And at the risk of injecting realism, 12 people can’t push in the same door at once — the best the folks in the back could do is push on someone who’s pushing on the door, but that would have a pretty limited effect.

All that said, I think the way you ran it works well, as it lets everyone participate. 

A regular size door will be hard pressed to have enough space if more then 4 people trying to push it.  Probably more like 3.  If a dungeon door is a bit bigger so be it.  You are not going to get 12 people pushing.

Because everyone has sharp blades and big hammers, it would make more sense to destroy the door vice push it.

But in the end does the DM want the door to stay closed, or have the party captured.  Based on that desire, the activity can be cinematic.

Realistically what happens is the bad guys make one, maybe two tries to open the door, and if it doesn't work they just demolish the door. Enemies strong enough to cause level 9+ PCs (since they were using teleportation circle, we can assume level 9-12) to flee can do so in under a round.

Personally I'd avoid going on the initiative clock for this scene- as you noted, RNG means that rolling for that many turns is likely to generate enough fails regardless of player stats. I'd either make it a group check or a series of individual checks- something like 3-5, and a player has to tap out for a couple rolls after they fail so there's a bit of strategy and drama to how the party approaches it- try to have the Big One carry the door for as long as they can, or leave them as the pinch hitter for the home stretch?

Yeah. This isn't going to be made more fun by breaking out the combat rules while holding the door. (Also, since the party can end it by tossing a spell, it turns out the drama is false, but it didn't have to be.)

You're in spaces that the D&D rules don't have mechanics for. (Both combined effort and contested checks.)

You could look back to 4e's skill challenges, but this isn't going to be a very interesting one.

The party are presumably outmuscled, but, unless the attackers have the ability to improvise a ram, they're going to have difficulty applying their full force. Where they have the advantage is stamina -- they can rotate people in, while the party can't.

I think how I'd work it is have whoever's in the "lead" of the door holding make athletics checks against a set DC. Two of the other characters are assisting, but they don't give the check advantage -- three people is the price of admission, and the fourth one can try to do something clever.

If they fail, the door comes partly open, and they need to make a harder check to force it back. But the price of trying that check is a separate check to avoid tiring, and if they fail that one, somebody else has to take lead. Three failures and the door is open. Two failures and an enemy can get in, at the price of the door slipping back to the one-failure level.

The enemies were low cr thugs. One of the party had a potion of giant strength for a str of 21.  But even if the enemies only had a str of 10, there were a dozen of them.  I think if it had been a tug of war, it would have been fairly evenly matched.

But a tug of war, when evenly matched, can take some time. Most dnd rules are designed to resolve an issue with a single roll. This kinda needed something that could have minor give and take per turn to let it take some time.

The party was undercover, in disguise, and trying to keep a low profile. The thugs would have had basic personal weapons, but the location was devoid of weapons. Things like a battering ram or similar would have been many minutes away.

The goal was to get in quietly, get the mcguffin, and get out before anyone noticed them.  

I suppose this is one of those rare moments where Arcane Lock would come in clutch. But i dont think anyone had it prepared.

Ah well. I think the players still had fun. 

Not sure if it helps, but we have this example in the DMG about forcing a door open:

Calculated DCs

For some ability checks and most saving throws, the rules default to the following formula:

DC = 8 + ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus

This formula often sets the saving throw DC when a creature is casting a spell or using a special ability, but it can also apply to ability checks that are contests between two creatures. For example, if one creature is holding a door shut, use its Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus to set the DC for opening the door. When another creature tries to force the door open, the creature makes a Strength (Athletics) check against that DC. [...]

Both sides could have made attacks through the gap of the door if it was partially open.

I agree that it is highly unlikely for 12 people to push on a door at one time. 

Shame on the party for not having wedges or pitons or Create Bonfire.

I'd either use a Group check vs a DC, a Contest Party vs Monsters best 4 of 7 for example or make a Skill Challenge of 5 successes before 3 failures using Strength (Athletics) check as primary ability and other secondary abilities if i have more time to design it as an encounter.

I like the skill challenge idea, while I don't think 4e nailed the idea, the concept was good. Have the 4 people come up with ways they are going to contribute. Like Bob and Frank are holding the door, Sara is standing by with a spear and if the door crack open a bit she jabs through to get people to back off, Tom hangs back and reinforces the door if Bob or Frank falter or get knocked back. 

The good thing with Skill Challenge is that it allow various characters to contribute in their respective Strength instead of force eneryone to make a single ability check where some may not be that good with, so things like Charisma (Persuasion) check to encourage party members to push further and have Advantage to Strenght (Athletics) check or Charisma (Intimidation) check to discourage enemies.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I like the skill challenge idea, while I don't think 4e nailed the idea, the concept was good. 

 I've generally run skill challenges in 5e as "everyone declares how they're assisting and makes a check; more successes than failures means the action succeeds", rather than the "N successes before 3 failures" of 4e.

I always like that 4E Skill Challenge could measure progression via "N successes before 3 failures" where tension is at its highest down to the last check...

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I like the skill challenge idea, while I don't think 4e nailed the idea, the concept was good. 

 I've generally run skill challenges in 5e as "everyone declares how they're assisting and makes a check; more successes than failures means the action succeeds", rather than the "N successes before 3 failures" of 4e.

There's problem with the math though.  Essentially players with a lower average chance of success will drag down the party average, making inaction a more optimal choice. If you try to meta the rules, everyone working on the same specific goal should break up into pairs, so you get fewer rolls with Advantage, picking the players with the highest bonus to do the check. Its mechanically optimal, but strategically boring.  

X Success before 3 fails as a meta progression also creates a similar issue, but gets mitigated by the wider range of skill checks that can be applied.   However, at higher DCs, it again becomes more optimal to split up into pairs, as the risk of meta failure dramatically increases with more parallel attempts.  

This is why I advocate for a target success number with a different requirement as the stakes. You have to give more attention to how you set DCs (which should be pretty high), but you can tweak the parameters to better suit a situation.   IE: the party has to gain a number of successes within a time limit to "win", or race between both sides to 5 successes with the option for individual players to try and sabotage the enemy, Or they need one success on a very high DC, and each character's action reduces the DC in that round.   

Quote from starlinvf >>

There's problem with the math though.  Essentially players with a lower average chance of success will drag down the party average, making inaction a more optimal choice.

 That's a problem with 4e skill challenges. It's not a problem if you're just declaring "everyone rolls", because then inaction is the same thing as failing.

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I would have used pointy weapons as wedges. Hammer one into the floor to hold the bottom of the door.

Anything helps. it could extend the time it takes to get through the door. Or even give advantage.

Essentially this is a DM inspired problem so leave the imagination of how long you last holding the door to the DM.

There is no formula. As the DM I would Set total force against total force. Total strength vs total strength. How many can push on each side of the door vs the same.

Whatever formula the DM works out should be used for all other door checks like this.